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Strange case of the 1925-S Buffalo nickel
gyocomgd
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Good evening,
There's a story behind this fairly ordinary 1925-S Buffalo nickel I'd like to relate to you all. The story follows the pics:
Now, many people on the boards have been helpful to me, none more so than my friend BuffaloIronTail--good old Pete. Always a great source of information and education, Pete is always quick to lend advice, insight or just conversation. A few months ago, I casually asked Pete what nickel he was looking to acquire next. He mentioned a 1925-S, in XF condition. Wanting to do something nice for Pete, I found one rather quickly, and for a nice price. As a token of my appreciation I mailed it to him. He of course tried to refuse the gift, and after much arm twisting he insisted on compensating me for almost the entire price. Not an easy man to give a gift to.
Several days later, while out of town on business, I got an urgent e-mail message from Pete. He said he needed to speak to me right away. We get on the phone and Pete, his voice a mixture of excitement and regret, informs me that the coin has been doctored. Though both sides of the coin looked fine to me, Pete tells me pointedly to always to examine the rim of the coin--"It's the third surface," he notes. This is what Pete saw:
The tooling marks are the tell-tale signs of an embossed mintmark, in which the doctor drills out a section of the coin and, using small pliers, inserts the tiny facsimile of a mint mark within the coin. Exerting pressure, the mark is pushed up through the coin turning a Philadelphia-minted coin into (in this case) a San Francisco mint example. Done well, it is the most convincing of the fake mint-mark procedures. Trust me, the "S" is as sharp as can be with no disruption in the metal surrounding it.
Pete was/is puzzled that this would be done to a 1925 Buffalo nickel. The price points hardly are much of incentive for someone to go to all that trouble. Obviously it would be more common on a '21, '24 or '26. It is the first he'd heard of it happening to a '25 at all. Pete elected to return the coin to me, but I in turn decided to keep it as sort of a neat conversation piece.
It's nice to have friends like Pete in numismatics. Or to have at all. He's a wonderful guy.
Guy
There's a story behind this fairly ordinary 1925-S Buffalo nickel I'd like to relate to you all. The story follows the pics:
Now, many people on the boards have been helpful to me, none more so than my friend BuffaloIronTail--good old Pete. Always a great source of information and education, Pete is always quick to lend advice, insight or just conversation. A few months ago, I casually asked Pete what nickel he was looking to acquire next. He mentioned a 1925-S, in XF condition. Wanting to do something nice for Pete, I found one rather quickly, and for a nice price. As a token of my appreciation I mailed it to him. He of course tried to refuse the gift, and after much arm twisting he insisted on compensating me for almost the entire price. Not an easy man to give a gift to.
Several days later, while out of town on business, I got an urgent e-mail message from Pete. He said he needed to speak to me right away. We get on the phone and Pete, his voice a mixture of excitement and regret, informs me that the coin has been doctored. Though both sides of the coin looked fine to me, Pete tells me pointedly to always to examine the rim of the coin--"It's the third surface," he notes. This is what Pete saw:
The tooling marks are the tell-tale signs of an embossed mintmark, in which the doctor drills out a section of the coin and, using small pliers, inserts the tiny facsimile of a mint mark within the coin. Exerting pressure, the mark is pushed up through the coin turning a Philadelphia-minted coin into (in this case) a San Francisco mint example. Done well, it is the most convincing of the fake mint-mark procedures. Trust me, the "S" is as sharp as can be with no disruption in the metal surrounding it.
Pete was/is puzzled that this would be done to a 1925 Buffalo nickel. The price points hardly are much of incentive for someone to go to all that trouble. Obviously it would be more common on a '21, '24 or '26. It is the first he'd heard of it happening to a '25 at all. Pete elected to return the coin to me, but I in turn decided to keep it as sort of a neat conversation piece.
It's nice to have friends like Pete in numismatics. Or to have at all. He's a wonderful guy.
Guy
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of metal on the rim as being removed. in a rectangular shape.
is that what you see also? maybe it was a practice coin to learn
the trade of being a coin doctor.
Thanks so much, great story, pics, and information
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Actually, I'm not at all surprised that the embossing was done to that coin.
What I'm wondering is: why do it to a coin that has worn down to that point, rather than a new coin?
ALWAYS check the rim.
Pete
Just think how many of these embossed mintmarks are out there - I'll bet there are quite a few.
Good pix, too.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
jom
<< <i>I've never heard of this being done to any coins except Buffalo nickels. Maybe the reason it was done to a circulated 1925 example was for practice, before tackling the more high-end pieces. I'm surprised the culprit didn't do a more thorough job in cleaning up the evidence, though.
Just think how many of these embossed mintmarks are out there - I'll bet there are quite a few.
Good pix, too. >>
First of all, an EF 1925-S nickel bids at $120 while a 1925 bids at $13. An approximately $100 profit is not chopped liver.
Second, the price level is such that people aren't going to worry as much as if it were a $1000 coin. These embossed mint marks were always sold in capital plastic type holders. For $1000 you'll undo the screws and check the edge. For $100, who would bother at a busy show?
Third, embossed mint marks are also known on Morgan dollars, and if they can drill in that far they can do half dollars and any other coin thick enough to drill into without breaking the surface.
Tom D.
Would such an alteration be detectible with an X-ray? I'm wondering if there is a void left inside the coin after the rim was patched.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Quite an educational post.
You just can't be too careful anymore whether it's a $100 or $1000 coin.
Thanks for the post Gyocomgd.
Dave
apparently the 1893 Morgan was a frequent target. Great reminder to always check that edge.
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<< <i> First of all, an EF 1925-S nickel bids at $120 while a 1925 bids at $13. An approximately $100 profit is not chopped liver.
>>
I paid $84 for this one, if I recall correctly. Even $120 seems a small profit margin to me. I don't know how long it takes to do something like this, but I imagine it would take a couple of hours, what with the precision required and the tediousness of positioning everything just right. And the overhead can't be chopped liver either. Imagine how many coins the doctor ruined before he perfected the craft, the tools needed to do it, the threat of being caught, etc.
If I were a crook, I'd stick to the rare dates. And I'd smooth down the rim--it seems that would be the easiest part!
<< <i>I don't know how long it takes to do something like this, but I imagine it would take a couple of hours, what with the precision required and the tediousness of positioning everything just right. >>
Not as long as you might think. Drill press type set up and a monted jig for holding the coin. Use a band saw to slice set-up blanks from a dowel rod. put one in the jig and do a test drilling to make sure the alignment of the jig is right. (Even easier to do if you have a milling press.) Then you can start drilling coins, probably take a couple minutes per coin. The actual embossing, another minute or so per coin. Fill the hole with a low temp solder and smooth the edge. I'd bet that a practiced scammer could process six to ten coins per hour.
<< <i>If I were a crook, I'd stick to the rare dates. >>
Smarter to not get greedy and stick to semi-keys and coins with significant values but not really high values. Key dates and extremely high value coins will get a close scrutiny and your handiwork is much more likely to be noticed. You make more per coin with the very high value pieces, but the lower values will allow you to "fly under the radar" a lot longer and move a lot more pieces.
It's interesting. The first glimps I had of the obverse suggested to me that it was a 25-P (relatively strong numerals in the date plus the soft surface appearance). I think this is a great piece to keep for educational purposes. If you ever decide to give it away, send it to me.
As for why somebody would do this to a lowly coin, perhaps they wanted to perfect their technique before trying their hand on a pricey piece.
It is difficult to judge from the photograph, but is the entire rectangular section between the vertical marks of a different shade/color compared to the surrounding rim?
For the Buffalo experts: Are there always the vertical marks on a altered coin? From the descriptions given of the process, it is not obvious to me why there should be any vertical marks.
Does anyone else have examples that they can post that are not as obvious?
<< <i>Guy,
It is difficult to judge from the photograph, but is the entire rectangular section between the vertical marks of a different shade/color compared to the surrounding rim?....From the descriptions given of the process, it is not obvious to me why there should be any vertical marks. >>
No, the area is the same color (same material apparently), and it is set flush with the rest of the rim--even rounded carefully. You can't distinguish the area by feel. One of my first questions also was why the vertical marks were left in place. Perhaps it would require heating the metal of the coin, which I imagine would require a much higher temperature to make it malleable. I just don't know.
<< <i>Thank's for the kind words, Guy.
Actually, I'm not at all surprised that the embossing was done to that coin.
What I'm wondering is: why do it to a coin that has worn down to that point, rather than a new coin?
ALWAYS check the rim.
Pete >>
Practice!
Extremely interesting find. I'd also be interested to know how the embossed Mint mark compares with originals. There would have to be subtle differences.
Hoot
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I saw this done - really well - with an 89-CC Morgan. The giveaway of course was the "look" of a P Morgan... Otherwise, darn deceptive.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>I've heard of this, but never seen one or known anyone who found an example. Kind of cool, and
apparently the 1893 Morgan was a frequent target. Great reminder to always check that edge. >>
It seems like it would be very hard to do the embossed mint mark thing on a Morgan dollar. The mint mark is positioned pretty far into the coin, and you would have to do a lot of drilling.
Buffalo nickels are easy because the mint mark is right on the edge. Peace dollars and $2.50 Indians could be targets too, although adding a "D" to a 1911 $2.50 coin would hard because of the odd characteristics of the letter on the coin. Still I guess you could nail a newbie who be happy with his sharp mint mark on a coin where it is often weak.
<< <i>You'all say it is not worth $75 to make this fake >>
These folks must make a lot more than I do. If I'm right about beng able to make five or so of these in an hour you're talking $375 per hour. Just do an hour a week in your spare time and add $18,750 to your annual income.
But I'm not a Buffalo expert, just and observer.