100 Point Grading System to be discussed at PCGS Registry Luncheon

FatMan · October 3, 2005 9:14AM

From a recent PCGS Set Registry email about the luncheon at the upcoming FUN Show.

<< At the luncheon we will present a special panel discussion on grading. Our panelists will discuss the history of grading, the grading scale, and the future of grading. In addition, we will have an open discussion on whether or not the rare coin market should adopt a 100-point grading scale. >>

I think this would be a disaster, but it is obviously on the radar screen. And I can see why PCGS would be behind it. $$$$$$$$$$

So what do you think about 100 points?

DickyBetz · October 3, 2005 9:20AM

We already have an 11 point scale for MS coin. Imagine if we had that for EVERY grade...

It is a horrible idea!!!!!!!!!!!

RYK · October 3, 2005 9:20AM

So what do you think about 100 points?

While I think it would only benefit the TPGs and competitive collectors, I think it is inevitable.

291fifth · October 3, 2005 9:21AM

My prediction: It will happen...unless collectors make it clear that they won't be coming along for the ride.

500Bay · October 3, 2005 9:22AM

Where is the ANA in this question?

bgrice · October 3, 2005 9:23AM

Stupid agenda as far as I am concerned. It's not as if there is some exact science/method of coming up with grades, so it would just muddle things up more than it already is.

ms700 · October 3, 2005 9:25AM

So what do you think about 100 points?

Well, the 700 point system cannot be far behind?

zkcoins · October 3, 2005 9:26AM

Now I am curious how all old slabs would be regraded! Can we say ripoff! All the millions of TPG slabbed coins would be inaccurate or out dated!

Personally I think it would be a greek tragedy! I am very satisfied with the 70 pt scale. Most people in this hobby buy what they want any way, either the coin or the the holder!

Just my opinion!

Zach

ms700 · October 3, 2005 9:27AM

Might make the old slabbed coins even more valuable?

Fairlaneman · October 3, 2005 9:28AM

There could be 1000 points but even if a coin was graded 999 its still just a opinion. Grade and buy for yourself. Will a 100 point scale make coins go for a higher price ? Very doubtful. Only the TPG's win here.

Ken

AmericanCopper · October 3, 2005 9:31AM

How many times can you split a hair?

ROBERTB · October 3, 2005 9:37AM

I'll be all for it as soon as TPG's agree to convert their slabs to the new system for $1 each.

coynclecter · October 3, 2005 9:39AM

<< How many times can you split a hair? >>

AS many times as someone will pay the fee for

koynekwest · October 3, 2005 9:46AM

Maybe a good idea if it was held to five point increments, with 70 being the lowest Mint state grade (pass or fail.) Five point increments would never last, tho. We would end up with 31 different MS grades.

ziggy29 · October 3, 2005 9:51AM

If they are going to keep in the spirit of the Sheldon scale, which assigned numbers based on relative worth of a coin based on condition, I humbly submit:

Poor-1 (basal state)
Fair-2
AG-3
G-4, 6
VG-8, 10
F-15, 20
VF-30, 40, 50
XF-75, 100, 130
AU-150, 200, 300
MS-250, 300, 350, 400, 500, 800, 1500, 2500, 4000, 10000, 30000

There you go. Hey, this even allows for a top-quality AU to be worth more than a bottom-of-the-barrel MS coin.

DNADave · October 3, 2005 9:55AM

"Buy the coin not the holder" would be more advisable than ever in the ensuing confusion.

jabba · October 3, 2005 9:56AM

Some one tell me how a human can pick between grade 97 or 98 with out just guessing?
and I can see it now " Here is a MS98 morgan, very PQ worth the extra $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"

ms700 · October 3, 2005 10:01AM

It is all Olga Korbut and Nadia Comeneche's fault!

UncleWiggly · October 3, 2005 10:03AM

Coins are becoming a big, controversial, pain in the ass. I don't know where my or anybody elses breaking point is, but I have caught myself 2 maybe 3 times recently wondering if I'm having any fun with coins. I'm between real new and still new. So, I made up my own grading scale with only 2 points. A 1 stands for super, duper, great looking coins. All other coins get a 2. The number 2 stands for stupid looking coin.

Jerry

coinkat · October 3, 2005 10:03AM

For the record, I had nothing to do with this...

An original surfaces designation? yes and long overdue

A 100 point grading system? No... at least not until we have mastered the Sheldon scale...

Barry · October 3, 2005 10:19AM

Very bad idea. There's no consistency with 70 points. 100 will only make it worse. If anything, it should be decreased. 20 seems about right, but I'm not for that either.

If it happens, there should be a massive collector boycott of new slabs.

KurtHorn · October 3, 2005 10:25AM

I hate the idea of changing it. There is already too much subjectivity between the MS grades. But, if it were to be changed it ought to be fewer numbers not more. Like the 30 grades that actually exist now.

ROBERTB · October 3, 2005 10:26AM

<< 
If it happens, there should be a massive collector boycott of new slabs. >>

That's not necessary. Remember, as good as PCGS is, there not the only game in town. It would certainly be a financial disaster for PCGS and a windfall for NGC.

topstuf · October 3, 2005 10:28AM

Why not leave it like it is and have "time destruct" slabs that will dissolve in...oh...say...5 years? That way if nothing changes, you'd still have to resubmit every 5 years and if something DID change in prices or grading (they're inseparable, you know) they could get upped or dinged at the renewal period.

vega1 · October 3, 2005 10:35AM

I think that idea blows. As many have mentioned no one can even agree within a 70 point system most of the time. This is clearly IMO an idea brought up by an evil TPG marketing genius to secure future revenue and increase it over time through cross-overs and regrades by promoting chaos.

I can't really see any benefit to the collecting community in this at all.

ROBERTB · October 3, 2005 10:35AM

<< Why not leave it like it is and have "time destruct" slabs that will dissolve in...oh...say...5 years? That way if nothing changes, you'd still have to resubmit every 5 years and if something DID change in prices or grading (they're inseparable, you know) they could get upped or dinged at the renewal period.

>>

messydesk · October 3, 2005 10:37AM

Crackout fees must be on the decline. Just how open are such discussions at FUN show luncheons? Are they open to the public or only those who have been invited to the luncheon?

goose3 · October 3, 2005 10:37AM

a ridiculous idea that would only ever be done for one reason.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

the day that garbage happens is the day I will seriously consider ending my collecting days completely.

cladking · October 3, 2005 10:37AM

The problem is not the number of points on the grading scale. Getting away from
what has become an arbitrary number could be beneficial but does not address the
real problem with the grading system; the grade doesn't tell you anything about the
condition of a coin.

This is all the fault of collectors. Everyone wants to have their hand held when they
buy a coin which means they want to be able to look it up in a catalog. When col-
lectors decide they are ready to buy coins rather than grades (prices) then we'll pro-
bably have decimal (10 pt or 100 pt) grading.

messydesk · October 3, 2005 10:38AM

<< It is all Olga Korbut and Nadia Comeneche's fault! >>

No, it's Spinal Tap's fault. Nadia never got an 11.

ChangeInHistory · October 3, 2005 10:39AM

There was a chance or talk about using a 100 point scale back in the late '80's. That opportunity is past and we have what we have.

If ANY numerical adjustment were to be made, I would think that 1/2 points or fractions on the Mint State scale would make a bit more sense. How many times do we talk about low end for the grade, average for the grade, and better than average for the grade? Maybe a 63, 63.3, 63.7, 64, 64.3,........ Or maybe 63, 63.5, 64, 64.5. I like KoinKat's suggestion of an original surfaces designation.

All that said, I'm not necessarily for any change in the grading scale. It does look like a huge money grab by the TPG's.

topstuf · October 3, 2005 10:40AM

<< I can't really see any benefit to the collecting community in this at all. >>

Hey, buddy, it's for your own GOOD. Now shaddap and trust the grading company. Sheesh. Think this was some kinda SERVICE business or sumpin.

dpoole · October 3, 2005 10:42AM

I'd rather they put their efforts behind standards and consistency. That would do a great deal more for acceptance of grading than adding more deck-chairs to the Titanic.

CarlWohlforth · October 3, 2005 10:43AM

I'd like to rename the grading scale because I don't want to honor a thief by calling it the Sheldon scale.

Considering how fast Americans have adopted the rational metric system you naysayers have nothing to worry about. I would go for a new scale. I point out that you don't need to use 100 different grades if you use a 100 point scale. We don't use 70 grades now...

brccoins · October 3, 2005 10:45AM

I'm all for change but this is absurd. How would this be beneficial to us? What are we supposed to do with all our coins on the 1-70 scale? Send them back? For only a $5 charge they will be reholdered? If anything I would like to see a smaller scale (1-30) where we actually use ALL the numbers.

If they try to do this I cant wait to see what their logic is. 100 is more of a round number?

goose3 · October 3, 2005 10:45AM

let me add this also.....

imagine the amount of crackouts and resubmissions with an extra 30 points to shoot for.

how many times have people posted on here stories about resubmissions for coins that come back a different grade 2, 3, and 4 times.

and THAT'S with a 70 point scale.

The thought of a 100 point scale is laughable.

tradedollarnut · October 3, 2005 11:04AM

I might like it ... there's only so much value you can cram into one distinct grade point. When you have $100k difference in value between grades and the service is reticent to create that much value, you have grade compression.

Of course, a simpler way is to convert to decimal grading that reflects the average of the grades given so a just made it MS64 is MS63.67-63.75 and a high end MS64 is MS64.33-64.50.

weresteve · October 3, 2005 11:08AM

<< So what do you think about 100 points? >>

Time to call in an air strike from NORAD ... nuke that trial baloon before it even has a snowball's chance in hades ...

dlimb2 · October 3, 2005 11:25AM

I think they need to get the 70 grade scale down before they try another scale which only complicates coin grading...HE LL if they can not get the 70 scale down pat how can they do a 100 scale!! Who ever thought this up, needs to be brought down to earth!

WTCG · October 3, 2005 11:31AM

A new grading system will be extremely difficult to adopt, especially if you have been using the 70 point system regularly for a long time. I am a huge fan of new and fresh ideas, but I am strongly opposed to change at this time.

AmericanCopper · October 3, 2005 11:37AM

As I am primarily a copper collector, rather than what could prove to be minefield of hype by converting to an even more confusing numerical system, I would prefer they adapt some sort of Red/Brown designation numbering system. The degree of Red-to- Brown on all the Copper issues is inconsistant, and difficult to fairly assess buying a coin that's not in-hand. The current generic R/B designation is only marginally helpful to me, but if a degree of original Red is present on a copper, it could easily be graded and holdered as a R/B1, R/B 2, R/B 3. If TPG's are seriously going to and justify anything new, I hope they'll look at that as another option to rake their financial coals. Just a thought.

Bear · October 3, 2005 11:54AM

This is a no brainer. Its not a question of if,

its a question of when. Since we are approaching

the point where most coins are maxed out, it is time to

open the door. Actually, a 100 point range might allow

for more accuracy and fine tuning in the grading system.

Just imagine if we were to consider a grading span of 1000

units?

pharmer · October 3, 2005 11:57AM

I think that if the negative opinions are clearly and firmly expressed at this discussion, and pcgs and the other tpg's realize that their customers believe only the tpg's will benefit and it is thus financially self-serving, it will go away. But they have to know in no uncertain terms. Stopping it now will be much easier than stopping it once they have committed resources to implementing it.

fcloud · October 3, 2005 12:03PM

It will turn out like tulip bulbs. Leave it alone, or everyone will figure out there is no need to make a new system.

I for one am completely against it. Hopefully if they go to this type of system it will be either after I have sold everything, or after I die.

kranky · October 3, 2005 12:09PM

When every single cracked-out coin comes back the same grade every single time, then we'll be ready to expand the grading scale to 100 points, or to half-point MS grading, or something else. Supporting an expanded grading scale now would be like telling a pitcher who walks too many batters that a smaller home plate would solve that problem.

If this idea is adopted, it will absolutely kill the high end of the hobby. Then some years later, everyone will look back woefully and wonder whatever possessed them to support such an idea.

solid · October 3, 2005 12:46PM

I might support the idea if it was implemented in a sensible way, such as:

1) Leave the current circulated grades as is.

2) An uncirculated coin automatically gets 60 points, plus 1 to 10 points for each of the following:

Strike 1-10
Luster/Mirrors 1-10
Hits/hairlines/etc 1-10
Originality 1-10

Thus, an MS or Proof coin could grade 90 with the further distinction of (8-8-7-7) to indicate how the
final grade was arrived at.

I believe this could help people learn to grade more accurately.

Ken

cladking · October 3, 2005 12:52PM

<< I might support the idea if it was implemented in a sensible way, such as:

1) Leave the current circulated grades as is.

2) An uncirculated coin automatically gets 60 points, plus 1 to 10 points for each of the following:

Strike 1-10
Luster/Mirrors 1-10
Hits/hairlines/etc 1-10
Originality 1-10

Thus, an MS or Proof coin could grade 90 with the further distinction of (8-8-7-7) to indicate how the
final grade was arrived at.

I believe this could help people learn to grade more accurately.

Ken >>

Great!!! More importantly it would tell the coin's condition.

ROBERTB · October 3, 2005 1:27PM

I doubt all the major 4 TPG's would agree to this. Therefore, one or a couple of them would have to REALLY go out on a limb. It could honestly destroy a TPG, or at the least, shatter all confidence and trust with it's submitters.

jom · October 3, 2005 1:27PM

<< 100 Point Grading System to be discussed at PCGS Registry Luncheon >>

God help us all.....

jom

FatMan · October 3, 2005 1:29PM

<< I doubt all the major 4 TPG's would agree to this. Therefore, one or a couple of them would have to REALLY go out on a limb. It could honestly destroy a TPG, or at the least, shatter all confidence and trust with it's submitters. >>

I think it would require the blessings of the ANA. But I don't underestimate the power of the few to get them to go along.

clw54 · October 3, 2005 1:31PM

This is all such a racket.

100 Point Grading System to be discussed at PCGS Registry Luncheon

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