<< <i>I think they need to get the 70 grade scale down before they try another scale which only complicates coin grading...HE LL if they can not get the 70 scale down pat how can they do a 100 scale!! Who ever thought this up, needs to be brought down to earth! >>
Say what? You can say that again!
I would rather see a more precise method of grading coins! The implementation of LETTERS should be brought into the grading equation. A simple WE4, ML4, FE6, EE7, FT5 are a few of the letter-number notations that can be used to describe a mint state coin. W, M, F and E stand for the different stages of strike....Weak, Medium, Full, E for EDS! The middle letter notation could stand for E- eye appeal, L- Lustrous, T- Toned. And a 4 would stand for a MS64 coin and so on. Other letters that indicate Prooflike, Semi Prooflike could be added to the grade as well. Now that I've solved everyone's problems with grading coins, good night.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Grading was supposed to simply describe a coin to someone who can't see it in person. Now it's blown way out of proportion to the point where now the TPG's literally dicatate the market. A simpler system with LESS grades (MS grades) would do more for the common good. Let the market decide the in-between values. That way collectors will be FORCED to learn how to evaluate the coins value themselves.
Also, the best and most important reason for slabs is missed in all of this. IMO, the AUTHENTICATION of the coin was and still is the most important service the TPG's give.
How many coins graded MS/PR 70 would translate to a MS/PR 100? I think most of the current MS/PR 70 would probably cross in the mid-high 90's. On a 1-100 scale, the current 70s don't necessarily equate to 100s on a new scale. How would this affect the registry sets and those who are in the top 10 (or 20) of a registry set? All the coins that would have to be resubmitted for "accurate" grading would create such a disaster, especially the submission turnaround time. We all complain about having to wait 30-45 days to receive our coins back. How about 6-9 months (maybe longer)? As much trouble as the graders have with a 70 point scale, why make them suffer that much more with a 100 point scale? Worse yet, why make the collectors have to suffer that much more? Can you imagine how much collectors would have to spend just to update their collections?
What about all of the numbers on the 70 point scale that aren't used at all? Do we need 100 points when there's no such thing as an AU54 or XF43 just as examples? This whole idea is just silly.
I've said it all along. It is no more complex than us fellas putting a woman being between a 1 and a 10. It takes a panel of three almost 45 days to grade a coin, anything more is overkill.......just raise the price of grading and get back to examining instead of micro managing
Want to slow down progress ? Have a meeting...over lunch
<< <i>What about all of the numbers on the 70 point scale that aren't used at all? Do we need 100 points when there's no such thing as an AU54 or XF43 just as examples? >>
The above post says it all. This is the actual bottom line of the entire issue. It is pretty hard for a TPG to justify 100 points in light of the above fact.
If you want reform with regard to grading, how about treating each coin as an "object of art"? Isn't it really all about eye appeal and personal opinion? I have always stated one truth: I have sold some EF coins for more money than "GEM UNC" coins, soley based upon eye appeal. Coins are NOT science.........they are art (unless we are talking modern crap).
If you want reform with regard to grading, how about treating each coin as an "object of art"? Isn't it really all about eye appeal and personal opinion? I have always stated one truth: I have sold some EF coins for more money than "GEM UNC" coins, soley based upon eye appeal. Coins are NOT science.........they are art (unless we are talking modern crap). >>
<< <i> If it happens, there should be a massive collector boycott of new slabs. >>
That's not necessary. Remember, as good as PCGS is, there not the only game in town. It would certainly be a financial disaster for PCGS and a windfall for NGC. >>
Collectors would see this as a scam to get more slabbing fees. Also, this change would cost them most of their business since collectors would use the TPGS that still used the traditional ststem.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I do not see a need for an expanded scale, nor do I think it would destroy numismatics. The 70 point scale is arbitrary in its range but established and accepted. Regrading all slabbed coins will take along long time, but assure that PCGS and competitors will be busy and profitable for several decades. As a marketing consultant I would favor it.
<< <i>What about all of the numbers on the 70 point scale that aren't used at all? Do we need 100 points when there's no such thing as an AU54 or XF43 just as examples? This whole idea is just silly. >>
The unused grades below 60 aren't the issue. People seem satisfied with the number of circulated grades. It's that some people want more MS grades, and a 100-point scale is a way to do it. If a coin is $1000 in MS65 and $5000 in MS66, it can be real hard to sell a MS65 for $3500 (toning aside).
If there weren't the huge price differences between MS grades, no one would care about having more grades. Let's say that TPGs move to a 100-point scale and 80-100 are the MS grades, doubling the number of grades for MS coins. So the old MS60 is now Uncirculated-80, the old MS61 is U-82, and so on. The $1000 coin that was MS65 might now be U-90 and the $5000 MS66 might now be U-92.
A lot of the old MS65 coins will move up a bit to U-91, and now that $3500 price is a lot easier to get. Thousands and thousands of coins will be instantly "worth" more under an expanded system... as long as they get resubmitted. And with finer grading, even more crackouts will be done -- after all, the next grade up is only half as far away as it used to be.
And what is to be done with the "market graded" AU coins that are in MS holders? In an expanded system, there could be a way to grade them such that a particular grade would represent the "63 with slight rub" coins vs. a different grade that indicates "very, very slight wear, yet doesn't have that MS look". Who do you think will want to resubmit their MS62 coins which are actually AU if that issue is addressed in a new system?
It comes down to we can't grade Unc coins consistently on a 10-point scale today. Who are we kidding to think that expanding the scale is going to be better?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
The industry is already standardized on a 70 point scale. There are well known differences between certain TPG's that the market recognizes. I see no reason to start over on a 100 point scale that will only create chaos.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
Dollars are a 100 point scale. I asked Mr.Hall a few years ago in the Q & A how durable the 70 point scale would be when the jump in value between a single grade point became so excessive. Right now, in certain series in certain grade, the graders are forced to call a coin $400 or $20,000. There should be room for the TPG's to call that coin $3000.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I would MUCH MUCH rather see tenths for grades between MS60 and MS70, than ever see a different scale. I would have no problem having coins graded "MS 64.7" ... many of us already speak in those terms. I am reminded of the transition in the stock markets from fractions to cents. A stock that previously traded at 32-1/4 could now be $32.25, or $32.23, or $32.27. But, they didn't change the numbers !!! A stock trading at 70 didn't suddenly start trading at 100.
I would absolutely revolt against the hobby if we all had to resubmit our coins to have the grades rescaled.
It's bad enough the coins are buried in plastic tombs, and that we have a LINEAR NUMERICAL system that ignores strike, luster, color, and eye appeal - or at best buries them opaquely within the single assigned numerical grade. What the hell is the point of going to another equally flawed system???
The potential rip-off of the uninformed is enormous:
Widow walks into coin shop with MS-65 coins in current PCGS holders. "Sorry, madam, I know your husband said he paid $1000's of dollars for these coins, but look at Greysheet. Grade 65 (now EF equivalent) is only worth $50 per coin. It says right here in the standard wholesale guide for coin dealers."
Not to mention the confusion during the transition.
Nonetheless, it is probably inevitable, and we will all learn to use the new scale, just like we handled the transition from adjectival grading to the Sheldon scale.
OK folks, party's over. The fun is no fun with news like this. I, for one, cannot afford to send in all my slabs for $5 a pop. I'll go back to my Dansco's.
Can we all agree that this is $$$ driven. Adding PQ to the description wasn't good enough, NGC's * designation is OK, but now.....let's go to 100.
How many MS88's are now going to look better than MS90's? Some state about the $$ jump between 65 & 66, will this stop with 100pt grading? This is subjective folks, there will AWAYS be a difference of OPINION. That's why we email each other after a sale to ask how we liked the coin, and will take the coin back if unsatisfied, the grade is just someone's (or a few folks') opinion.
......the graders are forced to call a coin $400 or $20,000 So? They should call it as they see it. What happens with a 100pt system if the market seperates an 85 as a 'collector' coin & 86 as an 'investor' coin & the price difference becomes the same? 100pt system w/decimals?!
What about the registry sets? We can by coins that are dogs but have the grade we want & can afford. What would happen went you are getting beaten out by someone that has a MS84 to your MS83? Now you gotta look for a MS85!
This balloon has to go down like a Lead Zeppelin, & not fly like Led Zeppalin.
The biggest problem is peoples resistance to change and the logistics involved. Suppose we hade a 100 point system now and PCGS was proposing a change to a 70 point system. Almost no one would like to see that. 10 points for MS/PR is not enough to designate all conditions. A 100 point scale is more logical, would be easer understood by new collectors, and fits in with the dollar system.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Dollars are a 100 point scale. I asked Mr.Hall a few years ago in the Q & A how durable the 70 point scale would be when the jump in value between a single grade point became so excessive. Right now, in certain series in certain grade, the graders are forced to call a coin $400 or $20,000. There should be room for the TPG's to call that coin $3000. >>
Can't agree with you there, Don. In your example of the $400 and the $20,000 coins being one grade apart, that problem isn't because there aren't enough grades. I agree that there are $3000 examples, and probably $10,000 examples, of that coin. The graders aren't forced to do anything except render their opinion of the grade. If the $3000 coin is difficult to sell, that's not the fault of the grading scale. If the market values grade X at $400 and grade X+1 at $20,000, knowing that the X+1 coin could be cracked out and come back the next time a point lower, then I feel the problem is with the market.
Let the person with the $3000 example or the $10,000 example find a buyer willing to pay it. The coin is what it is. To say that we need more grades in order to properly grade a $3000 example of that coin is saying that the TPGs don't grade coins, they price them. Is that what we want? People who buy toners for premium prices seem to manage without a grade telling them what the coin is worth.
I say again when every crackout comes back the same grade every time, then we'll be ready for more grades.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Right now, in certain series in certain grade, the graders are forced to call a coin $400 or $20,000. There should be room for the TPG's to call that coin $3000
I agree!
What will we do if they switch to a 100 point scale? Collect coins, I suspect.
the fact that this 100 point scale idea is being promoted by the "leader in the coin grading industry" has red lights flashing in my eyes!!!!!! it seems clear that there can only be one motivation--------$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
PCGS, and by logic every other TPG, will stand to rape the marketplace and most importantly, the collector, if this comes to be. it's just a fancy method of Market Grading whereby we would be forced to have our MS60-MS70/PR60-PR70 coins reholdered to the newer standard which would be reflective of a new price scale. let's look at it via kranky's example above:
If a coin is $1000 in MS65 and $5000 in MS66, it can be real hard to sell a MS65 for $3500 (toning aside). what if that MS65 could be sold for $2500 with todays scale and market pricing?? that's not unrealistic. what if it's reassigned to U-73, a much more restrictive grade and able to be priced in a stricter fashion?? what if that pricing is determined to be $1400. i think that at the same time as collectors would be held hostage by the grading companies, dealers would jump into the fray making it nearly impossible to realize a fair price with an old style 70 point scale holdered coin.
Right now, in certain series in certain grade, the graders are forced to call a coin $400 or $20,000. There should be room for the TPG's to call that coin $3000.
Don, you know as well as me that the graders have no business making that determination, they are held responsible for assigning the grade. me and you would make the value assessment.
at least that's how it's supposed to be. further evidence of why this idea is bad. it's just another value determination ploy by PCGS. if i sound paranoid it's because i am. i really don't want an artificial re-assessment of the value of my collection. this reminds me of OPEC and the way they can determine the price of oil at a whim, absent true market forces of supply and demand.
<< <i>I would MUCH MUCH rather see tenths for grades between MS60 and MS70, than ever see a different scale. I would have no problem having coins graded "MS 64.7" ... many of us already speak in those terms. I am reminded of the transition in the stock markets from fractions to cents. A stock that previously traded at 32-1/4 could now be $32.25, or $32.23, or $32.27. But, they didn't change the numbers !!! A stock trading at 70 didn't suddenly start trading at 100.
I would absolutely revolt against the hobby if we all had to resubmit our coins to have the grades rescaled.
It's bad enough the coins are buried in plastic tombs, and that we have a LINEAR NUMERICAL system that ignores strike, luster, color, and eye appeal - or at best buries them opaquely within the single assigned numerical grade. What the hell is the point of going to another equally flawed system???
Sunnywood >>
This pretty much sums up my opinion. Right on Sunnywood.
is saying that the TPGs don't grade coins, they price them.
Kranky, honestly, when was the last time anyone really submitted a coin wanting it graded, not price protected. Authentication, maybe, but since when does a collector need a TPG to tell them whether they like a coin, or a dealer submitter to tell them what it grades? Sellers put coins in holders to increase their saleability/price. Collectors put coins in holders to protect their future price. Holders have nothing to do with collecting, they have only to do with selling. JMO
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Right now, in certain series in certain grade, the graders are forced to call a coin $400 or $20,000. There should be room for the TPG's to call that coin $3000. >>
Adding more in-between grades does nothing. No matter how much you slice up the grades there will ALWAYS some contrived point where the market will take the big jump. The MS90 will end up at $20K and the MS89 coin will end up at $400 probably due to some marketing by dealers who'll say that "MS90 is the investor grade" or some non-sense.
<< <i>is saying that the TPGs don't grade coins, they price them.
Kranky, honestly, when was the last time anyone really submitted a coin wanting it graded, not price protected. Authentication, maybe, but since when does a collector need a TPG to tell them whether they like a coin, or a dealer submitter to tell them what it grades? Sellers put coins in holders to increase their saleability/price. Collectors put coins in holders to protect their future price. Holders have nothing to do with collecting, they have only to do with selling. JMO >>
Well, now I'm back to agreeing with you. But that's not the same thing as saying that we need more grades because the price difference between adjacent grades is sometimes too large. Those situations will just reappear somewhere else (as jom pointed out) and more grades won't stop it. Any time you have 5 coins in the top-pop grade, and 500 in the next grade down - whatever grading system is used -- the huge price jumps will be present. A large gap between adjacent grade prices does not mean more grades are needed.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
.......the price/value differences between various grades will narrow to the point where a small difference in grade wont affect the "value".
Mark, maybe so. But how many of us play the registry game? How many would try to buy an upgrade because the price differences between various grades will narrow to the point where (it's) a small difference?
How many more resubmissions because the differences between various grades will narrow?
When that occurs, people wont focus on the grades anymore and will be forced to (dare I say it?) concentrate on the "coins".
I don't understand that logic? If collectors can't do it now, I think it would only get worse going to a 100pt system, "I got a 78, but boy, if I only had that 79....and it's only $20 more." I have many coins that I know I'll never afford in a grade up, but that's ok, at least I can stop thinking of upgrading. With a 100pt system that's all I would think about!
Kranky, honestly, when was the last time anyone really submitted a coin wanting it graded, not price protected.
i can only speak for myself----the date was March 16th, 2005. 3238249
Collectors put coins in holders to protect their future price. Holders have nothing to do with collecting, they have only to do with selling. JMO
holy crap, a rare time when i disagree with a DHeath post!!!! the above coin, actually a quasi-coin, was a heavily toned 1991 SAE that is now in my Modern Type Set. it replaced a rather mundane 1989 MS69. i upgraded my set by losing five points!!!!! if you go to the link you'll notice that i dropped five more points with the clad Roosevelt Dime, replacing a brilliant MS68 1996-W with a shocking blue 1972 at MS64. i'm currently geared up to lose more points with a few other coins. woe is me, am i stupid or what!!???!!
Can you say a$$inine on here? I suppose those with money and the ego to match would be all for it. I'd rather see them give you the option to have seperate grades on the slab for the obverse and the reverse. Yes I know its been tried before, but now with the rush to buy plastic it might stick.
<< <i>I would MUCH MUCH rather see tenths for grades between MS60 and MS70, than ever see a different scale. I would have no problem having coins graded "MS 64.7" ... many of us already speak in those terms. -- Sunnywood >>
<< <i>I say again when every crackout comes back the same grade every time, then we'll be ready for more grades. -- Kranky >>
These quotes pretty much sum up my opinion. I think "fractional" grading would be great for my "PQ for the grade" coins. The problem is, the grading service I use can't get whole number grades right at least 20% of the time. Case in point: I have resubmitted two key date coins at different times. One went from VF35 to XF45, and the other went from VF25 to VF35. So, when the services can be extremely accurate and consistent, I'll agree that a new grading scale is a good idea.
I am sorry but most here and even the "professionals" can not see a difference between a 68 and 69 MS or Proof. I know I can not. Going to 100 point scale is ridicules if you think it will help the hobby. I rather see it REDUCED to 50 points!
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
Comments
<< <i>So what do you think about 100 points? >>
Only if they refine it to include 10ths
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
This could just be a ploy for PCGS to get us talking about it here so they may gauge the collector/investor/dealer interest.
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<< <i>Worst Idea I ever heard. I want to throw-up now. >>
Why don't you collect your vomit in a box and send it to PCGS to show your feelings on this issue.
Looking for alot of crap.
<< <i>I think they need to get the 70 grade scale down before they try another scale which only complicates coin grading...HE LL if they can not get the 70 scale down pat how can they do a 100 scale!! Who ever thought this up, needs to be brought down to earth! >>
Say what? You can say that again!
I would rather see a more precise method of grading coins! The implementation of LETTERS should be brought into the grading equation. A simple WE4, ML4, FE6, EE7, FT5 are a few of the letter-number
notations that can be used to describe a mint state coin. W, M, F and E stand for the different stages of strike....Weak, Medium, Full, E for EDS! The middle letter notation could stand for E- eye appeal, L- Lustrous,
T- Toned. And a 4 would stand for a MS64 coin and so on. Other letters that indicate Prooflike, Semi Prooflike could be added to the grade as well.
Now that I've solved everyone's problems with grading coins, good night.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
MS86
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Old Scale
60-70
50, 53, 55, 58
40, 45
20, 25, 30, 35
10, 12, 15, 20, 25
1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10
New Scale
90-100
70, 75, 80, 85
50, 55, 60, 65
30, 35, 40, 45
10, 12, 15, 20, 25
1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10
Reminds me of the efforts to go to the metric system
Also, the best and most important reason for slabs is missed in all of this. IMO, the AUTHENTICATION of the coin was and still is the most important service the TPG's give.
jom
I have to sheepishly comment, that it might
not be all that BAAAAAAAAAAAAAd.
What about not only 100 but decimals.
Havent you ever wanted a 99.9 coin?
Thats even better then the 99.8% pure Ivory Soap.
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<< <i>What about all of the numbers on the 70 point scale that aren't used at all? Do we need 100 points when there's no such thing as an AU54 or XF43 just as examples? >>
The above post says it all. This is the actual bottom line of the entire issue. It is pretty hard for a TPG to justify 100 points in light of the above fact.
So what do you think about 100 points?
GOD help us.
If you want reform with regard to grading, how about treating each coin as an "object of art"? Isn't it really all about eye appeal and personal opinion? I have always stated one truth: I have sold some EF coins for more money than "GEM UNC" coins, soley based upon eye appeal. Coins are NOT science.........they are art (unless we are talking modern crap).
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
<< <i>So what do you think about 100 points?
GOD help us.
If you want reform with regard to grading, how about treating each coin as an "object of art"? Isn't it really all about eye appeal and personal opinion? I have always stated one truth: I have sold some EF coins for more money than "GEM UNC" coins, soley based upon eye appeal. Coins are NOT science.........they are art (unless we are talking modern crap). >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
If it happens, there should be a massive collector boycott of new slabs. >>
That's not necessary. Remember, as good as PCGS is, there not the only game in town. It would certainly be a financial disaster for PCGS and a windfall for NGC. >>
Collectors would see this as a scam to get more slabbing fees. Also, this change would cost them most of their business since collectors would use the TPGS that still used the traditional ststem.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
<< <i>What about all of the numbers on the 70 point scale that aren't used at all? Do we need 100 points when there's no such thing as an AU54 or XF43 just as examples? This whole idea is just silly. >>
The unused grades below 60 aren't the issue. People seem satisfied with the number of circulated grades. It's that some people want more MS grades, and a 100-point scale is a way to do it. If a coin is $1000 in MS65 and $5000 in MS66, it can be real hard to sell a MS65 for $3500 (toning aside).
If there weren't the huge price differences between MS grades, no one would care about having more grades. Let's say that TPGs move to a 100-point scale and 80-100 are the MS grades, doubling the number of grades for MS coins. So the old MS60 is now Uncirculated-80, the old MS61 is U-82, and so on. The $1000 coin that was MS65 might now be U-90 and the $5000 MS66 might now be U-92.
A lot of the old MS65 coins will move up a bit to U-91, and now that $3500 price is a lot easier to get. Thousands and thousands of coins will be instantly "worth" more under an expanded system... as long as they get resubmitted. And with finer grading, even more crackouts will be done -- after all, the next grade up is only half as far away as it used to be.
And what is to be done with the "market graded" AU coins that are in MS holders? In an expanded system, there could be a way to grade them such that a particular grade would represent the "63 with slight rub" coins vs. a different grade that indicates "very, very slight wear, yet doesn't have that MS look". Who do you think will want to resubmit their MS62 coins which are actually AU if that issue is addressed in a new system?
It comes down to we can't grade Unc coins consistently on a 10-point scale today. Who are we kidding to think that expanding the scale is going to be better?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
The industry is already standardized on a 70 point scale. There are well known differences between certain TPG's that the market recognizes. I see no reason to start over on a 100 point scale that will only create chaos.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I would absolutely revolt against the hobby if we all had to resubmit our coins to have the grades rescaled.
It's bad enough the coins are buried in plastic tombs, and that we have a LINEAR NUMERICAL system that ignores strike, luster, color, and eye appeal - or at best buries them opaquely within the single assigned numerical grade. What the hell is the point of going to another equally flawed system???
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Widow walks into coin shop with MS-65 coins in current PCGS holders. "Sorry, madam, I know your husband said he paid $1000's of dollars for these coins, but look at Greysheet. Grade 65 (now EF equivalent) is only worth $50 per coin. It says right here in the standard wholesale guide for coin dealers."
Not to mention the confusion during the transition.
Nonetheless, it is probably inevitable, and we will all learn to use the new scale, just like we handled the transition from adjectival grading to the Sheldon scale.
The fun is no fun with news like this.
I, for one, cannot afford to send in all my slabs for $5 a pop.
I'll go back to my Dansco's.
Can we all agree that this is $$$ driven.
Adding PQ to the description wasn't good enough, NGC's * designation is OK, but now.....let's go to 100.
How many MS88's are now going to look better than MS90's?
Some state about the $$ jump between 65 & 66, will this stop with 100pt grading?
This is subjective folks, there will AWAYS be a difference of OPINION.
That's why we email each other after a sale to ask how we liked the coin, and will take the coin back if unsatisfied, the grade is just someone's (or a few folks') opinion.
......the graders are forced to call a coin $400 or $20,000
So? They should call it as they see it.
What happens with a 100pt system if the market seperates an 85 as a 'collector' coin & 86 as an 'investor' coin & the price difference becomes the same? 100pt system w/decimals?!
What about the registry sets?
We can by coins that are dogs but have the grade we want & can afford.
What would happen went you are getting beaten out by someone that has a MS84 to your MS83?
Now you gotta look for a MS85!
This balloon has to go down like a Lead Zeppelin, & not fly like Led Zeppalin.
This is an AWFUL idea.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Dollars are a 100 point scale. I asked Mr.Hall a few years ago in the Q & A how durable the 70 point scale would be when the jump in value between a single grade point became so excessive. Right now, in certain series in certain grade, the graders are forced to call a coin $400 or $20,000. There should be room for the TPG's to call that coin $3000. >>
Can't agree with you there, Don. In your example of the $400 and the $20,000 coins being one grade apart, that problem isn't because there aren't enough grades. I agree that there are $3000 examples, and probably $10,000 examples, of that coin. The graders aren't forced to do anything except render their opinion of the grade. If the $3000 coin is difficult to sell, that's not the fault of the grading scale. If the market values grade X at $400 and grade X+1 at $20,000, knowing that the X+1 coin could be cracked out and come back the next time a point lower, then I feel the problem is with the market.
Let the person with the $3000 example or the $10,000 example find a buyer willing to pay it. The coin is what it is. To say that we need more grades in order to properly grade a $3000 example of that coin is saying that the TPGs don't grade coins, they price them. Is that what we want? People who buy toners for premium prices seem to manage without a grade telling them what the coin is worth.
I say again when every crackout comes back the same grade every time, then we'll be ready for more grades.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I agree!
What will we do if they switch to a 100 point scale? Collect coins, I suspect.
PCGS, and by logic every other TPG, will stand to rape the marketplace and most importantly, the collector, if this comes to be. it's just a fancy method of Market Grading whereby we would be forced to have our MS60-MS70/PR60-PR70 coins reholdered to the newer standard which would be reflective of a new price scale. let's look at it via kranky's example above:
If a coin is $1000 in MS65 and $5000 in MS66, it can be real hard to sell a MS65 for $3500 (toning aside). what if that MS65 could be sold for $2500 with todays scale and market pricing?? that's not unrealistic. what if it's reassigned to U-73, a much more restrictive grade and able to be priced in a stricter fashion?? what if that pricing is determined to be $1400. i think that at the same time as collectors would be held hostage by the grading companies, dealers would jump into the fray making it nearly impossible to realize a fair price with an old style 70 point scale holdered coin.
Don, you know as well as me that the graders have no business making that determination, they are held responsible for assigning the grade. me and you would make the value assessment.
at least that's how it's supposed to be. further evidence of why this idea is bad. it's just another value determination ploy by PCGS. if i sound paranoid it's because i am. i really don't want an artificial re-assessment of the value of my collection. this reminds me of OPEC and the way they can determine the price of oil at a whim, absent true market forces of supply and demand.
<< <i>I would MUCH MUCH rather see tenths for grades between MS60 and MS70, than ever see a different scale. I would have no problem having coins graded "MS 64.7" ... many of us already speak in those terms. I am reminded of the transition in the stock markets from fractions to cents. A stock that previously traded at 32-1/4 could now be $32.25, or $32.23, or $32.27. But, they didn't change the numbers !!! A stock trading at 70 didn't suddenly start trading at 100.
I would absolutely revolt against the hobby if we all had to resubmit our coins to have the grades rescaled.
It's bad enough the coins are buried in plastic tombs, and that we have a LINEAR NUMERICAL system that ignores strike, luster, color, and eye appeal - or at best buries them opaquely within the single assigned numerical grade. What the hell is the point of going to another equally flawed system???
Sunnywood >>
This pretty much sums up my opinion. Right on Sunnywood.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Kranky, honestly, when was the last time anyone really submitted a coin wanting it graded, not price protected. Authentication, maybe, but since when does a collector need a TPG to tell them whether they like a coin, or a dealer submitter to tell them what it grades? Sellers put coins in holders to increase their saleability/price. Collectors put coins in holders to protect their future price. Holders have nothing to do with collecting, they have only to do with selling. JMO
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>adopt a 100-point grading scale >>
<< <i>Right now, in certain series in certain grade, the graders are forced to call a coin $400 or $20,000. There should be room for the TPG's to call that coin $3000. >>
Adding more in-between grades does nothing. No matter how much you slice up the grades there will ALWAYS some contrived point where the market will take the big jump. The MS90 will end up at $20K and the MS89 coin will end up at $400 probably due to some marketing by dealers who'll say that "MS90 is the investor grade" or some non-sense.
jom
<< <i>is saying that the TPGs don't grade coins, they price them.
Kranky, honestly, when was the last time anyone really submitted a coin wanting it graded, not price protected. Authentication, maybe, but since when does a collector need a TPG to tell them whether they like a coin, or a dealer submitter to tell them what it grades? Sellers put coins in holders to increase their saleability/price. Collectors put coins in holders to protect their future price. Holders have nothing to do with collecting, they have only to do with selling. JMO >>
Well, now I'm back to agreeing with you.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Mark, maybe so. But how many of us play the registry game? How many would try to buy an upgrade because the price differences between various grades will narrow to the point where (it's) a small difference?
How many more resubmissions because the differences between various grades will narrow?
When that occurs, people wont focus on the grades anymore and will be forced to (dare I say it?) concentrate on the "coins".
I don't understand that logic? If collectors can't do it now, I think it would only get worse going to a 100pt system, "I got a 78, but boy, if I only had that 79....and it's only $20 more."
I have many coins that I know I'll never afford in a grade up, but that's ok, at least I can stop thinking of upgrading. With a 100pt system that's all I would think about!
i can only speak for myself----the date was March 16th, 2005. 3238249
Collectors put coins in holders to protect their future price. Holders have nothing to do with collecting, they have only to do with selling. JMO
holy crap, a rare time when i disagree with a DHeath post!!!!
<< <i>I would MUCH MUCH rather see tenths for grades between MS60 and MS70, than ever see a different scale. I would have no problem having coins graded "MS 64.7" ... many of us already speak in those terms. -- Sunnywood >>
<< <i>I say again when every crackout comes back the same grade every time, then we'll be ready for more grades. -- Kranky >>
These quotes pretty much sum up my opinion. I think "fractional" grading would be great for my "PQ for the grade" coins. The problem is, the grading service I use can't get whole number grades right at least 20% of the time. Case in point: I have resubmitted two key date coins at different times. One went from VF35 to XF45, and the other went from VF25 to VF35. So, when the services can be extremely accurate and consistent, I'll agree that a new grading scale is a good idea.
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