You are right and Superior is wrong. Do what you feel you need to do and keep us informed on this forum. The fact that you wrote this thread will no doubt cost Superior thousands of dollars in lost future business and that should give you some satisfaction.
I never found anything at Superior to interest me but now I may well delete them from my bookmarks. As to your missing out on all those "special" coins because you caused Superior trouble and ruined a working relationship with them...
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
I agree with JadeCoin that Superior should have ponied up for a replacement coin immediately. It is they, not the buyer, who should have absorded the loss associated with their 'software problem' that caused the false listing.
Those who say the buyer should just 'forget about it and move on' or that no real harm was done because a full refund was given should consider what 'harm' would be done if the buyer tried something similar. What if the auction ended and when Superior sent the invoice, the buyer responded that they made a bidding error and that they didn't really mean to bid that high?
What if another EBAYer took the position that a coin was not available after an auction ended with the coin selling for less than what he hoped. The forum would be all over him ready to burn him at the stake. I don't see why Superior should be entitled to more deference just because they are a big auction house and they gave the bid money back. It's not like Superior actually paid anything to the bidder. It's the same as if they had refused to accept his money in the first place. If anything, Superior should be held to a higher standard. They are a professional auction house.
I believe Superiors poor post auction response is attributable to their belief that no one would really go to all the trouble and hassle of bringing a legal action to resolve a $150 dispute. If I were the buyer they would be correct. I wouldn't do it. But I quietly applaud someone who has the energy to follow through to enforce the auction contract.
The auction houses really do have a customer relations problem, even the best of them. Bottem line is they are just too busy and make a lot of mistakes. I really doubt anyone was lying on purpose, rather they just didn't have an answer, made one up, and also wanted to go to lunch right then.. I would support the idea of discussing this with Newmismatist to resolve the issue--basically you can't get another coin made by them because they aren't the US MInt--you will be unhappy-- but the question is when you cool down, I'd bet there are other things a big firm can do to make you more than whole if you try to be less emotional than they have been.
<< <i>Heck of a lot of hassle for a situation where no real harm was done.
They say they did not have the coin and made a mistake. They refunded the money. You tried to muscle and intimidate them. They were courteous but did not bend. Negative feedbacks were exchanged. Could they have handled it better? You bet. Could you have handled it better? You bet. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No matter what conversations transpired, my impression from reading is that Superior is ultimately trying to make it right with you. I can see if this had repeatedly happened to you while dealing with them, but if this is the one and only time this happened, I would ask that you temper your criticism. and wait a while until they perfect their software. They have to sell coins to stay in business. They offer it through multiple venues, and hope like hell their new software will work properly. That is a fact of life, and the kinks will possibly and eventually be worked out, or they will try something else. I do not in any way, shape, or form believe that they had any devious intent.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
IMO you were right and they were wrong, though I'm not a fan of the legal-hot-air approach.
I agree with CCU. Superior may have a practice of "making a software error" when they are under water in an ebay auction coin, for all I know. It certainly is worth keeping on the radar screen and collecting data points for future reference. This thread has already drawn out one similar auction "error" anecdote (dgreene56).
Personally, I think that a lot of us feel like we are "over-lawyered". Heck, my wife, an attorney, is on the computer right next to me typing up some legal letter and probably dressing someone down for some trivial mishap even as I type this. As a non-legal person, I find that heavy-handed approach, however potentially effective, is disgusting. If you had ended the argument and your first post at the point where Ms. Farma sent you the email indicating that they did not have the coin, I think the forum would have been extremely supportive of your position.
The CONTINUOUSLY list a MS66RD 1970 lincoln as a MS67RD 1970 lincoln. I must have caught them 5 times now. One day someone will buy it for a ridiculous amount of money and I doubt they will be any more helpful then they are now with you
As you are correct and if you can accure the legal expense, I say that them to small claims court, for breach of contract. This would be a new one for Judge Judy....
Also again it's Superior Galleries, all buyer should expect this treatment.
You walk into the sales office at a condo complex. You are shown a condo and agree to buy it for 130K. Later that day, the realtor tells you that he made a mistake. The condo wasn't available, it had been sold by another agent earlier that morning. You tell him that he has to sell you the condo anyway, or at least he should buy and deliver to you one of the other 12 identical units in the same complex. He tries to get you another unit but none of the owners will sell at anthing close to 130K. He tells you he can't go through with the deal. What now?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You walk in to Toy-R-Us to buy your kid a new bike because you saw one on sale in the circular. He picks out the one he really likes and it appears to be a very good deal. You take a ticket out and go to pay for it at the checkout counter. You get to the cash register and pay for the bike, and begin waiting for it to come out from the back room. About 5 minutes later a manager emerges and tells you that they don't have any more of those bikes, sincerely apologizes, promptly gives you a refund because Toys-R-Us has made a decision that they will no longer carry the bike as inventory. In case you do not find one, he offers to you that he will contact you in case Toys-R-Us does get additional bikes. He is also nice enough to recommend to you other places that you can buy the bike, which places do regularly stock it in inventory.
<< <i>ok, two parties involved and one goes on my ignore list. ill give you a clue.... its not superior.
i accept mistakes, but i dont wanna deal with a specific type of people. >>
You`d rather deal with a company that handed you a load of crap in lieu of what they entered a contract to fulfill?
Granted the transaction wasn`t mega-bucks,however, anyone who`s been given a load of BS instead of the truth know`s how Beepy feels.If they didn`t have the coin they should have told Beepy up front.If they weren`t sure of the coin`s availibility they should`ve made sure .Telling someone that it was shipped when it wasn`t availible to be shipped crossed the line from the usual line of BS to a big heaping pile of BS that would upset anyone,well,most everyone.
Too many folks "drop it" and move on in cases like this instead of sticking to their guns ,thereby allowing the big guys to continue this practice of wiggling out of their commitments.
A dealer once asked me if I noticed any three-legged buffalos on the bourse,to which I replied,"...no,but I saw alot of two-legged jackasses..."
The record longest first post, a lawyer, eBay, a major auction company, emails signed "Attorney at Law". Yep, this guy definitely has what it takes to keep a post at the top for a long time. This will make 250 easy.
Did the condo buyer sign a contract. If not, there's no contract. If yes, then the seller does have an obligation to sell.
Assume that the realtor (as agent for the seller) signed a contract. The fact remains that the the agent was mistaken in his belief that the condo was available. In fact, to give us a more perfect analogy, let's say title has already passed to the earlier buyer. Of course the second contract is not enforceable.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Clearly someone at Superior lied about the coin being shipped. So? That's life.
You demand customer service but from reading your correspondence, you might not be the type of customer they want. You went to DEFCON 5 way too quickly over a coin of that caliber. Yes, you're right. Yes, you should have received the coin. But the impression I got is that you demand, demand, demand. Your approach is too heavy-handed. Look back at what you wrote and see how much of the content is about how insulted you feel. Do you want the coin or do you want them to kiss your rear end? I get the impression that you feel that if you let it go, then they have "beaten" you.
They tried to get a replacement coin, but they won't write a blank check to do it. I think they tried, but because you brought out the heavy weapons so quickly, they figured you weren't worth it. I believe that had you talked to someone about it (not via emails signed "attorney at law") a mutually agreeable solution would have long since been worked out.
You could battle to the death over it, but don't be surprised if other dealers hear about it and choose not to deal with you. If that's a concern for you, it's something to think about.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I ignore Superior on eBay because of this statement in their auctions.
In some cases the coin pictured is not the same as the coin delivered. It is always the same grade, service and value. Any statements made about condition, grading service or grade is always accurate.
<< <i>I ignore Superior on eBay because of this statement in their auctions.
In some cases the coin pictured is not the same as the coin delivered. It is always the same grade, service and value. Any statements made about condition, grading service or grade is always accurate. >>
In that case I wouldnt bid on the coin. But that statement does not suggest deception.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
After seeing the post by Wondercoin, it appears that Superior was making a good faith effort to remedy the situation, and were willing to pay above FMV to get it done. However, the OP should have given Superior more time to get it done -- what difference does it make whether you have the coin tomorrow or one month from now. Have some patience!!
Also, I think it is unreasonable to expect them to buy the coin for "stupid money" (i.e. $500 for a coin with a FMV of $250) just because you are impatient. As long as they are making a good faith effort to resolve the situation, you should have continued to work with them.
That being said, Superior still screwed up, and feedback from other forum members indicates this is not an isolated incident. I would be reluctant to do business with them based on that. In addition, some of their recent activities (like auctioning a hoard of crap coins on Overstock.com) give me the impression that, despite their stature, they are in decline and getting desperate.
Superior couldn't deliver a coin to me I won in one of their auctions. They need to get their sheet together. Funny thing is this coin was on their website prior to the auction ( I didn't notice it afterwards) at twice what my winning bid was.
It is easy to see that "Newmismatist" is an attorney while Beepy is simply a lawyer. Newmismatist should be congratulated for his approach to life while Beepy should be placed into that same "mind set" that we expect from virtually all lawyers these days. Ofcourse Beepy is right. And he is willing to write a lengthy brief to prove it to us. Going to court to "win" is the "mind set" that he has been taught. Whereas, Newmismatist was obviously educated when his profession was deemed an honorable one. When "other" alternatives besides the courtroom were in vogue. Bob [supertooth]
<< <i>It is easy to see that "Newmismatist" is an attorney while Beepy is simply a lawyer. Newmismatist should be congratulated for his approach to life while Beepy should be placed into that same "mind set" that we expect from virtually all lawyers these days. Ofcourse Beepy is right. And he is willing to write a lengthy brief to prove it to us. Going to court to "win" is the "mind set" that he has been taught. Whereas, Newmismatist was obviously educated when his profession was deemed an honorable one. When "other" alternatives besides the courtroom were in vogue. Bob [supertooth] >>
Well, in "Defense" of Beepy, he has a legitimate complaint with Superior - He's correct with regard to the fact that Superior screwed up (this said having ONLY heard his side of this deal. As a lawyer, I have learned that you ALWAYS need to hear the other side before passing "Judgment" - but I assume that Beepy is giving us an accurate set of "facts" here). My real point is not WHO's right, but perhaps finding a better way to resolve what is a bad situation, without making it worse. I don't think Beepy is "wrong" - I just think - based on many years as a Lawyer and more as a passionate coin collector - that there's better ways to solve life's minor transgressions - Now if it was a 6 figure deal, I would have sent him my card!
As for Beepy's correspondance - I've probably written more than 1 letter similar to his emails - but that was at a time when I had a VERY sharp secretary - and no matter how HARD I tried to get her to get those letters done when I was REALLY pi$$ed, she always took 2 days to get those letters on my desk and by that time, reason prevailed over proving that I was "right" - None ever got sent. - Sometimes the best letters are the one's you NEVER send. (The same is true about posts on these forums - reading what you write BEFORE you push the send button is a well advised practice).
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
<< <i>Heck of a lot of hassle for a situation where no real harm was done.
They say they did not have the coin and made a mistake. They refunded the money. You tried to muscle and intimidate them. They were courteous but did not bend. Negative feedbacks were exchanged. Could they have handled it better? You bet. Could you have handled it better? You bet. >>
I absolutely agree! Also, I'm always uncomfortable when business correspondence with employee names is shared, as in this instance When posting here I think employee names should be redacted.
SG admitted that they made a mistake and sold you a coin that was already sold to someone else.
SG told you the coin was shipped to your address but that wasn't possible because they didn't have the coin. It certainly could be because of an error in the system. I think it's plausible to assume that the coin WAS marked as shipped in the system because it was actually sold but just not to you. Not really worth calling people liars over. It may have been an honest mistake.
SG then refunded your money when they noticed the glitch.
Like Andy said, MS70 and PF70 commemoratives are NOT bullion or some generic commodity. You can't just "replace" it. If you lost your entire collection in a fire, would you expect your insurance company to go and find EXACT replacements or just give you market value for it? What about if a coin was lost during shipping? Is the USPS responsible for replacing what was lost with an exact clone? No, they would refund your money.
It seems to me that SG did go to lengths to help you replace the coin even after they refunded your money.
I have accidentally had items on ebay that were out on approval when the client decided to purchase it and someone clicked buy it now. I promptly refunded their money and life went on. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
Going to court over a $160 coin is simply not worth the time or effort and is in my opinion, wrong. SG has tried to help you with this and you kept making it into a huge issue. It seems to me that you are on the warpath and even if you do win, you still lose.
My real point is not WHO's right, but perhaps finding a better way to resolve what is a bad situation, without making it worse. I don't think Beepy is "wrong" - I just think - based on many years as a Lawyer and more as a passionate coin collector - that there's better ways to solve life's minor transgressions - Now if it was a 6 figure deal, I would have sent him my card!
This really bears repeating- and yes I'm a lawyer too, but my dance card is full (i.e., you can't get my card)
<< <i>My real point is not WHO's right, but perhaps finding a better way to resolve what is a bad situation, without making it worse. I don't think Beepy is "wrong" - I just think - based on many years as a Lawyer and more as a passionate coin collector - that there's better ways to solve life's minor transgressions - Now if it was a 6 figure deal, I would have sent him my card!
This really bears repeating- and yes I'm a lawyer too, but my dance card is full (i.e., you can't get my card) >>
>>
I agree with Foo, and yes I'm a lawyer too. I would have pushed for a more amicable resolution before resorting to veiled threats and allegations. Everytime you put "attorney at law" on something, you are implying that a lawsuit is going to be the end result of your dissatisfaction. That usually forces the other party to respond negatively. You being an attorney had nothing to do with a being a bidder, winner, or a customer with a service issue.
And yes you implied that the person lied, even if you didn't say it directly. That's just a word game.
Newmismatist: I wish my attorneys spent more time chasing their own personal problems than billing me!
<< <i>I agree with Foo, and yes I'm a lawyer too. I would have pushed for a more amicable resolution before resorting to veiled threats and allegations. Everytime you put "attorney at law" on something, you are implying that a lawsuit is going to be the end result of your dissatisfaction. That usually forces the other party to respond negatively. You being an attorney had nothing to do with a being a bidder, winner, or a customer with a service issue. >>
That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the first letter signed as "attorney at law." In this case, I didn't see any reason to do that other than to threaten and intimidate. You immediately put the other party on the defensive.
SG admitted that they made a mistake and sold you a coin that was already sold to someone else.
SG told you the coin was shipped to your address but that wasn't possible because they didn't have the coin. It certainly could be because of an error in the system. I think it's plausible to assume that the coin WAS marked as shipped in the system because it was actually sold but just not to you. Not really worth calling people liars over. It may have been an honest mistake.
SG then refunded your money when they noticed the glitch.
Like Andy said, MS70 and PF70 commemoratives are NOT bullion or some generic commodity. You can't just "replace" it. If you lost your entire collection in a fire, would you expect your insurance company to go and find EXACT replacements or just give you market value for it? What about if a coin was lost during shipping? Is the USPS responsible for replacing what was lost with an exact clone? No, they would refund your money.
It seems to me that SG did go to lengths to help you replace the coin even after they refunded your money.
I have accidentally had items on ebay that were out on approval when the client decided to purchase it and someone clicked buy it now. I promptly refunded their money and life went on. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
Going to court over a $160 coin is simply not worth the time or effort and is in my opinion, wrong. SG has tried to help you with this and you kept making it into a huge issue. It seems to me that you are on the warpath and even if you do win, you still lose. >>
Newmismatist----you prove yourself wise again by whom you hired as a secretary. You were even wiser by never forcing her to send those letters. I dare say if every attorney acted with such a level head, this country would be far better off. In the case of Beepy, he has the rashness of youth going against him. Rather than maybe going for a much better prize down the road----as your good nature accomplished---he basically wins nothing and wastes his time and energy [and raises his BP] for nothing. By the way, I sold a mess of CC20 dollar gold plus a lot of others through the Kagin"s in the 1970"s. Very nice and professional folks. Bob [supertooth]
This is a tempest in a teapot. I had something similar happen to me recently on a transacton involving more money than this. I bought a set of coins on ebay, and before shipping the seller sent me a note and said one of the coins was missing. He offered to cancel the transaction if I wanted to cancel it. We exchanged e-mail and determined that he would attempt to replace the missing coin. If he was unable to do so within a week he would ship the balance of the coins to me with a check for a mutually agreed credit to replace the missing coin. He found a replacement that was acceptable to me and shipped the complete set.
At no time during this transaction did I call him a liar, threaten to sue him, or send long letters recounting the facts of the matter from my point of view.
You were right, but so is the guy who gets T-boned after stopping at a stop sign, then doesn't look before proceeding. You still end up in a car wreck that is very ugly. I think this could have been resolved easily with a little diplomacy.
TextAs a lawyer, every tripwire in my being was triggered.
Is being a lawyer sort of like being Spiderman and having that spider sense tingling feeling?
<< <i>I agree with Foo, and yes I'm a lawyer too. I would have pushed for a more amicable resolution before resorting to veiled threats and allegations. Everytime you put "attorney at law" on something, you are implying that a lawsuit is going to be the end result of your dissatisfaction. That usually forces the other party to respond negatively. You being an attorney had nothing to do with a being a bidder, winner, or a customer with a service issue. >>
That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the first letter signed as "attorney at law." In this case, I didn't see any reason to do that other than to threaten and intimidate. You immediately put the other party on the defensive. >>
That jumped out at me too, the mention was irrelevant. I don't go around tooting my own horn, even when a connection could be made, as with the invocation above of the s-word, with my profession (amateur gynecologist).
-------------------------
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>It is easy to see that "Newmismatist" is an attorney while Beepy is simply a lawyer. Newmismatist should be congratulated for his approach to life while Beepy should be placed into that same "mind set" that we expect from virtually all lawyers these days. Ofcourse Beepy is right. And he is willing to write a lengthy brief to prove it to us. Going to court to "win" is the "mind set" that he has been taught. Whereas, Newmismatist was obviously educated when his profession was deemed an honorable one. When "other" alternatives besides the courtroom were in vogue. Bob [supertooth] >>
Well, in "Defense" of Beepy, he has a legitimate complaint with Superior - He's correct with regard to the fact that Superior screwed up (this said having ONLY heard his side of this deal. As a lawyer, I have learned that you ALWAYS need to hear the other side before passing "Judgment" - but I assume that Beepy is giving us an accurate set of "facts" here). My real point is not WHO's right, but perhaps finding a better way to resolve what is a bad situation, without making it worse. I don't think Beepy is "wrong" - I just think - based on many years as a Lawyer and more as a passionate coin collector - that there's better ways to solve life's minor transgressions - Now if it was a 6 figure deal, I would have sent him my card!
As for Beepy's correspondance - I've probably written more than 1 letter similar to his emails - but that was at a time when I had a VERY sharp secretary - and no matter how HARD I tried to get her to get those letters done when I was REALLY pi$$ed, she always took 2 days to get those letters on my desk and by that time, reason prevailed over proving that I was "right" - None ever got sent. - Sometimes the best letters are the one's you NEVER send. (The same is true about posts on these forums - reading what you write BEFORE you push the send button is a well advised practice). >>
<< <i><< I am actually not very letigious for an attorney, but I hate to see the little guy get screwed. >>
He didn't get screwed. He just didn't get a rip at well below market value, and his money was refunded.
Russ, NCNE >>
So you get that impression too? >>
Well, I'm no fan of Superior. Matter of fact, I would never buy from them for a number of reasons. So, despite the fact that he's a blowhard lawyer, I was sort of on his side because I was assuming Superior was blowing smoke. But, when I read Wondercoin's post, it became obvious that they actually did make an honest mistake and were busting their asses trying to honor the deal by offering double what this guy bid.
That's when I realized the real reason for all the bluster is that he's pissed he didn't get a rip.
I'm not a lawyer but I am a business person and Superior made a huge bonehead mistake by not spending the $500 bucks for a replacement coin. Do you think Superior would have paid the $500 now that they have read this thread...which I'm sure they have.
How many collectors read this forum?
How much money in future business do you think Superior has lost because of this thread?
"That's when I realized the real reason for all the bluster is that he's pissed he didn't get a rip."
But - PAUL SONG IS HEAD OF AUCTIONS OVER THERE NOW. I have no doubt that Paul (again, a total class act) would have compensated this bidder with the full "benefit of his bargain" had he simply pointed out that he was losing the $97 difference between what he won the coin for and what the coin was actualy worth at full retail. Again, I suspect Superior has a serious inventory control issue they are wrestling with right now, but they were prepared to pay me $300 for a coin they sold on ebay for $153, so I see no "foul play" involved here whatsoever.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
A contract is a contract but I also doubt that you can win a law suit against them for $346.71 if they can produce another one at a much lower price. If I was them, I would offer you to take any $500.00 coin from my inventory as compensation for the double sold coin for $153.29.
I was just wondering, where would you sue? In WI or CA? and would a judgement in WI be carry out in CA?
Coin Collector, Chicken Owner, Licensed Tax Preparer & Insurance Broker/Agent. San Diego, CA
Surely you must be kidding. What coins could Superior possibly carry in inventory that you can't get elsewhere and for the same or less money? .....................
No, I'm not kidding. Roadrunner, you're not a newbie...stop acting like one.
To anyone who doesn't understand where the current "Superior" fits into the coin market (and where their principals have staked claims) for the past 20 years (as TIA, TAGZ, etc.), is clearly the newbie. I stand by my statement.
The coin market is littered with far more dealers that do nothing for their clientel as a whole (there are always exceptions) than those who actually help make wise decisions for them. To think that any one dealer is critical to yourself are the musings of a newbie. Where SG or any other dealer fits into the equation is a personal decision based on personal experiences and a gut feel. There is always another dealer or advisor waiting around the corner who can do it just as well or better than the next guy. Same comment for "unreplaceable coins." There is always another similar or better value out there if you look.
Other than the sheer market size of a Heritage, I do not see any other dealer (or collector) in the market who's absence would leave any significant negative mark on the state of the current market.
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You are right and Superior is wrong. Do what you feel you need to do and keep us informed on this forum. The fact that you wrote this thread will no doubt cost Superior thousands of dollars in lost future business and that should give you some satisfaction.
I never found anything at Superior to interest me but now I may well delete them from my bookmarks. As to your missing out on all those "special" coins because you caused Superior trouble and ruined a working relationship with them...
Those who say the buyer should just 'forget about it and move on' or that no real harm was done because a full refund was given should consider what 'harm' would be done if the buyer tried something similar. What if the auction ended and when Superior sent the invoice, the buyer responded that they made a bidding error and that they didn't really mean to bid that high?
What if another EBAYer took the position that a coin was not available after an auction ended with the coin selling for less than what he hoped. The forum would be all over him ready to burn him at the stake. I don't see why Superior should be entitled to more deference just because they are a big auction house and they gave the bid money back. It's not like Superior actually paid anything to the bidder. It's the same as if they had refused to accept his money in the first place. If anything, Superior should be held to a higher standard. They are a professional auction house.
I believe Superiors poor post auction response is attributable to their belief that no one would really go to all the trouble and hassle of bringing a legal action to resolve a $150 dispute. If I were the buyer they would be correct. I wouldn't do it. But I quietly applaud someone who has the energy to follow through to enforce the auction contract.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>Heck of a lot of hassle for a situation where no real harm was done.
They say they did not have the coin and made a mistake. They refunded the money. You tried to muscle and intimidate them. They were courteous but did not bend. Negative feedbacks were exchanged. Could they have handled it better? You bet. Could you have handled it better? You bet. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
I agree with CCU. Superior may have a practice of "making a software error" when they are under water in an ebay auction coin, for all I know. It certainly is worth keeping on the radar screen and collecting data points for future reference. This thread has already drawn out one similar auction "error" anecdote (dgreene56).
Personally, I think that a lot of us feel like we are "over-lawyered". Heck, my wife, an attorney, is on the computer right next to me typing up some legal letter and probably dressing someone down for some trivial mishap even as I type this. As a non-legal person, I find that heavy-handed approach, however potentially effective, is disgusting. If you had ended the argument and your first post at the point where Ms. Farma sent you the email indicating that they did not have the coin, I think the forum would have been extremely supportive of your position.
Also again it's Superior Galleries, all buyer should expect this treatment.
You walk into the sales office at a condo complex. You are shown a condo and agree to buy it for 130K. Later that day, the realtor tells you that he made a mistake. The condo wasn't available, it had been sold by another agent earlier that morning. You tell him that he has to sell you the condo anyway, or at least he should buy and deliver to you one of the other 12 identical units in the same complex. He tries to get you another unit but none of the owners will sell at anthing close to 130K. He tells you he can't go through with the deal. What now?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Hypothetical #2:
You walk in to Toy-R-Us to buy your kid a new bike because you saw one on sale in the circular. He picks out the one he really likes and it appears to be a very good deal. You take a ticket out and go to pay for it at the checkout counter. You get to the cash register and pay for the bike, and begin waiting for it to come out from the back room. About 5 minutes later a manager emerges and tells you that they don't have any more of those bikes, sincerely apologizes, promptly gives you a refund because Toys-R-Us has made a decision that they will no longer carry the bike as inventory. In case you do not find one, he offers to you that he will contact you in case Toys-R-Us does get additional bikes. He is also nice enough to recommend to you other places that you can buy the bike, which places do regularly stock it in inventory.
What to do next?
Did the condo buyer sign a contract. If not, there's no contract. If yes, then the seller does have an obligation to sell.
<< <i>ok, two parties involved and one goes on my ignore list. ill give you a clue.... its not superior.
i accept mistakes, but i dont wanna deal with a specific type of people. >>
You`d rather deal with a company that handed you a load of crap in lieu of what they entered a contract to fulfill?
Granted the transaction wasn`t mega-bucks,however, anyone who`s been given a load of BS instead of the truth know`s how Beepy feels.If they didn`t have the coin they should have told Beepy up front.If they weren`t sure of the coin`s availibility they should`ve made sure .Telling someone that it was shipped when it wasn`t availible to be shipped crossed the line from the usual line of BS to a big heaping pile of BS that would upset anyone,well,most everyone.
Too many folks "drop it" and move on in cases like this instead of sticking to their guns ,thereby allowing the big guys to continue this practice of wiggling out of their commitments.
Assume that the realtor (as agent for the seller) signed a contract. The fact remains that the the agent was mistaken in his belief that the condo was available. In fact, to give us a more perfect analogy, let's say title has already passed to the earlier buyer. Of course the second contract is not enforceable.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Beepy, are you sure you're not related to Majorbigtime?? >>
Not even close. The difference in writing skills is a mile wide!!
You demand customer service but from reading your correspondence, you might not be the type of customer they want. You went to DEFCON 5 way too quickly over a coin of that caliber. Yes, you're right. Yes, you should have received the coin. But the impression I got is that you demand, demand, demand. Your approach is too heavy-handed. Look back at what you wrote and see how much of the content is about how insulted you feel. Do you want the coin or do you want them to kiss your rear end? I get the impression that you feel that if you let it go, then they have "beaten" you.
They tried to get a replacement coin, but they won't write a blank check to do it. I think they tried, but because you brought out the heavy weapons so quickly, they figured you weren't worth it. I believe that had you talked to someone about it (not via emails signed "attorney at law") a mutually agreeable solution would have long since been worked out.
You could battle to the death over it, but don't be surprised if other dealers hear about it and choose not to deal with you. If that's a concern for you, it's something to think about.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
In some cases the coin pictured is not the same as the coin delivered. It is always the same grade, service and value. Any statements made about condition, grading service or grade is always accurate.
<< <i>I ignore Superior on eBay because of this statement in their auctions.
In some cases the coin pictured is not the same as the coin delivered. It is always the same grade, service and value. Any statements made about condition, grading service or grade is always accurate. >>
In that case I wouldnt bid on the coin. But that statement does not suggest deception.
Also, I think it is unreasonable to expect them to buy the coin for "stupid money" (i.e. $500 for a coin with a FMV of $250) just because you are impatient. As long as they are making a good faith effort to resolve the situation, you should have continued to work with them.
That being said, Superior still screwed up, and feedback from other forum members indicates this is not an isolated incident. I would be reluctant to do business with them based on that. In addition, some of their recent activities (like auctioning a hoard of crap coins on Overstock.com) give me the impression that, despite their stature, they are in decline and getting desperate.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
I am not so sure. Having the word "screwed" in the title certainly would have helped (ie. "I just got screwed by Superior!").
Somehow, I missed the Wondercoin post. It does not change my opinion that something might be rotten in Denmark.
<< <i>It is easy to see that "Newmismatist" is an attorney while Beepy is simply a lawyer. Newmismatist should be congratulated for his approach to life while Beepy should be placed into that same "mind set" that we expect from virtually all lawyers these days. Ofcourse Beepy is right. And he is willing to write a lengthy brief to prove it to us. Going to court to "win" is the "mind set" that he has been taught. Whereas, Newmismatist was obviously educated when his profession was deemed an honorable one. When "other" alternatives besides the courtroom were in vogue. Bob [supertooth] >>
Well, in "Defense" of Beepy, he has a legitimate complaint with Superior - He's correct with regard to the fact that Superior screwed up (this said having ONLY heard his side of this deal. As a lawyer, I have learned that you ALWAYS need to hear the other side before passing "Judgment" - but I assume that Beepy is giving us an accurate set of "facts" here). My real point is not WHO's right, but perhaps finding a better way to resolve what is a bad situation, without making it worse. I don't think Beepy is "wrong" - I just think - based on many years as a Lawyer and more as a passionate coin collector - that there's better ways to solve life's minor transgressions - Now if it was a 6 figure deal, I would have sent him my card!
As for Beepy's correspondance - I've probably written more than 1 letter similar to his emails - but that was at a time when I had a VERY sharp secretary - and no matter how HARD I tried to get her to get those letters done when I was REALLY pi$$ed, she always took 2 days to get those letters on my desk and by that time, reason prevailed over proving that I was "right" - None ever got sent. - Sometimes the best letters are the one's you NEVER send. (The same is true about posts on these forums - reading what you write BEFORE you push the send button is a well advised practice).
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>Heck of a lot of hassle for a situation where no real harm was done.
They say they did not have the coin and made a mistake. They refunded the money. You tried to muscle and intimidate them. They were courteous but did not bend. Negative feedbacks were exchanged. Could they have handled it better? You bet. Could you have handled it better? You bet. >>
I absolutely agree! Also, I'm always uncomfortable when business correspondence with employee names is shared, as in this instance When posting here I think employee names should be redacted.
SG admitted that they made a mistake and sold you a coin that was already sold to someone else.
SG told you the coin was shipped to your address but that wasn't possible because they didn't have the coin. It certainly could be because of an error in the system. I think it's plausible to assume that the coin WAS marked as shipped in the system because it was actually sold but just not to you. Not really worth calling people liars over. It may have been an honest mistake.
SG then refunded your money when they noticed the glitch.
Like Andy said, MS70 and PF70 commemoratives are NOT bullion or some generic commodity. You can't just "replace" it. If you lost your entire collection in a fire, would you expect your insurance company to go and find EXACT replacements or just give you market value for it? What about if a coin was lost during shipping? Is the USPS responsible for replacing what was lost with an exact clone? No, they would refund your money.
It seems to me that SG did go to lengths to help you replace the coin even after they refunded your money.
I have accidentally had items on ebay that were out on approval when the client decided to purchase it and someone clicked buy it now. I promptly refunded their money and life went on. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
Going to court over a $160 coin is simply not worth the time or effort and is in my opinion, wrong. SG has tried to help you with this and you kept making it into a huge issue. It seems to me that you are on the warpath and even if you do win, you still lose.
<< <i>
<< <i>My real point is not WHO's right, but perhaps finding a better way to resolve what is a bad situation, without making it worse. I don't think Beepy is "wrong" - I just think - based on many years as a Lawyer and more as a passionate coin collector - that there's better ways to solve life's minor transgressions - Now if it was a 6 figure deal, I would have sent him my card!
>>
I agree with Foo, and yes I'm a lawyer too. I would have pushed for a more amicable resolution before resorting to veiled threats and allegations. Everytime you put "attorney at law" on something, you are implying that a lawsuit is going to be the end result of your dissatisfaction. That usually forces the other party to respond negatively. You being an attorney had nothing to do with a being a bidder, winner, or a customer with a service issue.
And yes you implied that the person lied, even if you didn't say it directly. That's just a word game.
Newmismatist: I wish my attorneys spent more time chasing their own personal problems than billing me!
$160.00 vs $500.00+ !!!!
the word ETHICS stands out here folks!
the dog has spoken.....
<< <i>I agree with Foo, and yes I'm a lawyer too. I would have pushed for a more amicable resolution before resorting to veiled threats and allegations. Everytime you put "attorney at law" on something, you are implying that a lawsuit is going to be the end result of your dissatisfaction. That usually forces the other party to respond negatively. You being an attorney had nothing to do with a being a bidder, winner, or a customer with a service issue. >>
That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the first letter signed as "attorney at law." In this case, I didn't see any reason to do that other than to threaten and intimidate. You immediately put the other party on the defensive.
Ben
166 BHDs & 154 Die Varieties & Die States...
Bust Half Nut Club #180
Festivus Yes! Bagels No!
<< <i>This will make 250 easy.
I am not so sure. Having the word "screwed" in the title certainly would have helped (ie. "I just got screwed by Superior!").
Methinks if the title was written that way, after an asset search lawyers really would be involved.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>What is your ebay username???
SG admitted that they made a mistake and sold you a coin that was already sold to someone else.
SG told you the coin was shipped to your address but that wasn't possible because they didn't have the coin. It certainly could be because of an error in the system. I think it's plausible to assume that the coin WAS marked as shipped in the system because it was actually sold but just not to you. Not really worth calling people liars over. It may have been an honest mistake.
SG then refunded your money when they noticed the glitch.
Like Andy said, MS70 and PF70 commemoratives are NOT bullion or some generic commodity. You can't just "replace" it. If you lost your entire collection in a fire, would you expect your insurance company to go and find EXACT replacements or just give you market value for it? What about if a coin was lost during shipping? Is the USPS responsible for replacing what was lost with an exact clone? No, they would refund your money.
It seems to me that SG did go to lengths to help you replace the coin even after they refunded your money.
I have accidentally had items on ebay that were out on approval when the client decided to purchase it and someone clicked buy it now. I promptly refunded their money and life went on. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
Going to court over a $160 coin is simply not worth the time or effort and is in my opinion, wrong. SG has tried to help you with this and you kept making it into a huge issue. It seems to me that you are on the warpath and even if you do win, you still lose. >>
Nicely put, Brandon.
At no time during this transaction did I call him a liar, threaten to sue him, or send long letters recounting the facts of the matter from my point of view.
You were right, but so is the guy who gets T-boned after stopping at a stop sign, then doesn't look before proceeding. You still end up in a car wreck that is very ugly. I think this could have been resolved easily with a little diplomacy.
TextAs a lawyer, every tripwire in my being was triggered.
Is being a lawyer sort of like being Spiderman and having that spider sense tingling feeling?
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree with Foo, and yes I'm a lawyer too. I would have pushed for a more amicable resolution before resorting to veiled threats and allegations. Everytime you put "attorney at law" on something, you are implying that a lawsuit is going to be the end result of your dissatisfaction. That usually forces the other party to respond negatively. You being an attorney had nothing to do with a being a bidder, winner, or a customer with a service issue. >>
That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the first letter signed as "attorney at law." In this case, I didn't see any reason to do that other than to threaten and intimidate. You immediately put the other party on the defensive. >>
That jumped out at me too, the mention was irrelevant. I don't go around tooting my own horn, even when a connection could be made, as with the invocation above of the s-word, with my profession (amateur gynecologist).
-------------------------
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>
<< <i>It is easy to see that "Newmismatist" is an attorney while Beepy is simply a lawyer. Newmismatist should be congratulated for his approach to life while Beepy should be placed into that same "mind set" that we expect from virtually all lawyers these days. Ofcourse Beepy is right. And he is willing to write a lengthy brief to prove it to us. Going to court to "win" is the "mind set" that he has been taught. Whereas, Newmismatist was obviously educated when his profession was deemed an honorable one. When "other" alternatives besides the courtroom were in vogue. Bob [supertooth] >>
Well, in "Defense" of Beepy, he has a legitimate complaint with Superior - He's correct with regard to the fact that Superior screwed up (this said having ONLY heard his side of this deal. As a lawyer, I have learned that you ALWAYS need to hear the other side before passing "Judgment" - but I assume that Beepy is giving us an accurate set of "facts" here). My real point is not WHO's right, but perhaps finding a better way to resolve what is a bad situation, without making it worse. I don't think Beepy is "wrong" - I just think - based on many years as a Lawyer and more as a passionate coin collector - that there's better ways to solve life's minor transgressions - Now if it was a 6 figure deal, I would have sent him my card!
As for Beepy's correspondance - I've probably written more than 1 letter similar to his emails - but that was at a time when I had a VERY sharp secretary - and no matter how HARD I tried to get her to get those letters done when I was REALLY pi$$ed, she always took 2 days to get those letters on my desk and by that time, reason prevailed over proving that I was "right" - None ever got sent. - Sometimes the best letters are the one's you NEVER send. (The same is true about posts on these forums - reading what you write BEFORE you push the send button is a well advised practice). >>
<< <i>I am actually not very letigious for an attorney, but I hate to see the little guy get screwed. >>
He didn't get screwed. He just didn't get a rip at well below market value, and his money was refunded.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>I am actually not very letigious for an attorney, but I hate to see the little guy get screwed. >>
He didn't get screwed. He just didn't get a rip at well below market value, and his money was refunded.
Russ, NCNE >>
So you get that impression too?
<< <i><< I am actually not very letigious for an attorney, but I hate to see the little guy get screwed. >>
He didn't get screwed. He just didn't get a rip at well below market value, and his money was refunded.
Russ, NCNE >>
So you get that impression too? >>
Well, I'm no fan of Superior. Matter of fact, I would never buy from them for a number of reasons. So, despite the fact that he's a blowhard lawyer, I was sort of on his side because I was assuming Superior was blowing smoke. But, when I read Wondercoin's post, it became obvious that they actually did make an honest mistake and were busting their asses trying to honor the deal by offering double what this guy bid.
That's when I realized the real reason for all the bluster is that he's pissed he didn't get a rip.
Russ, NCNE
How many collectors read this forum?
How much money in future business do you think Superior has lost because of this thread?
But - PAUL SONG IS HEAD OF AUCTIONS OVER THERE NOW. I have no doubt that Paul (again, a total class act) would have compensated this bidder with the full "benefit of his bargain" had he simply pointed out that he was losing the $97 difference between what he won the coin for and what the coin was actualy worth at full retail. Again, I suspect Superior has a serious inventory control issue they are wrestling with right now, but they were prepared to pay me $300 for a coin they sold on ebay for $153, so I see no "foul play" involved here whatsoever.
Wondercoin
Bingo.
I was just wondering, where would you sue? In WI or CA? and would a judgement in WI be carry out in CA?
San Diego, CA
No, I'm not kidding. Roadrunner, you're not a newbie...stop acting like one.
To anyone who doesn't understand where the current "Superior" fits into the coin market (and where their principals have staked claims) for the past 20 years (as TIA, TAGZ, etc.), is clearly the newbie. I stand by my statement.
The coin market is littered with far more dealers that do nothing for their clientel as a whole (there are always exceptions) than those who actually help make wise decisions for them. To think that any one dealer is critical to yourself are the musings of a newbie. Where SG or any other dealer fits into the equation is a personal decision based on personal experiences and a gut feel. There is always another dealer or advisor waiting around the corner who can do it just as well or better than the next guy. Same comment for "unreplaceable coins." There is always another similar or better value out there if you look.
Other than the sheer market size of a Heritage, I do not see any other dealer (or collector) in the market who's absence would leave any significant negative mark on the state of the current market.
roadrunner