My point was and I will repeat it one more time, if you have a grudge against NGC for whatever reason so be it and vice versa, but before you willy nilly make a post condeming it why not include the fact that PCGS did the same thing and in your line of thinking they did a worse transgression they actually graded it. I would suggest that some of who posted here didn't realize the fact that this has been done before by PCGS.
Excuse me, but there's a world of difference between removing encrustations from a gold coin and then certifying the coin and what has happened here. These silver coins are damaged by seawater to the extent that if they were removed from the holder they would be worth a tiny fraction of their current asking price. You cannot say the same about any conserved gold coin.
I feel a better comparison would be to PCGS holdering the chopmarked trade dollars. Damaged silver coins clearly marked as such. Funny that NGC will only put those in NCS holders, but will slab these seawater damaged coins ambiguously denoted with a newly coined marketable phrase such as "shipwreck effect"....
You guys are missing the boat on this one. (excuse the pun). This is obviously industry approved and recommended. After all, NGC is the official grading service of the two most powerful industy watch dog groups...ANA & PNG. Clearly this is on the up and up.
Placid- If a rep from NGC was helping hype these coins at the inflated prices the TV guys are charging, then I find that offensive. I would like to see a clip of this as I find it hard to believe that anyone at NGC would stoop to this. Everyone I have ever dealt with at NGC has always conducted themselves with extremely high ethical behavior and this would not fit that mold at all.
<< <i>Placid- If a rep from NGC was helping hype these coins at the inflated prices the TV guys are charging, then I find that offensive. I would like to see a clip of this as I find it hard to believe that anyone at NGC would stoop to this. Everyone I have ever dealt with at NGC has always conducted themselves with extremely high ethical behavior and this would not fit that mold at all. >>
The guy was the vice president of ncs that was on when I was watching. There was also some rep from the odyssey salvage company there as well. They were both on the show live with the shop at home Chambers guy and some other shop at home sales person.
The Chambers guy was putting the spin on the shipwreck effect that it was something special and making sound desireable.
The ncs guy then was talking about how if you use a 100 power electron microscope you could actaully still see parts of the coral embedded in the coin.
Then they were all like wow thats really cool.
If at some point anyone would have pointed out that the coins they were selling are the ones that after going thru the conservation process are the ones that were too damaged from the shipwreck effect to be graded then everything would have been acceptable to me.
I agree with what another said earlier. I bet this was up for bid and if PCGS had won it, it'd be a PCGS person talking about it on TV. I just personally don't see the big deal about all of this. Both the PCGS and NGC shipwreck coins don't affect my opinion of them. Even the Jessica Lynch coins, as tasteless as they are, don't really bother me. The only thing that concerns me is whether or not they are able to grade consistently and have a safe holder with some form of grade guarantee.
<< <i>My point was and I will repeat it one more time, if you have a grudge against NGC for whatever reason so be it and vice versa, but before you willy nilly make a post condeming it why not include the fact that PCGS did the same thing and in your line of thinking they did a worse transgression they actually graded it. I would suggest that some of who posted here didn't realize the fact that this has been done before by PCGS.
Excuse me, but there's a world of difference between removing encrustations from a gold coin and then certifying the coin and what has happened here. These silver coins are damaged by seawater to the extent that if they were removed from the holder they would be worth a tiny fraction of their current asking price. You cannot say the same about any conserved gold coin.
I feel a better comparison would be to PCGS holdering the chopmarked trade dollars. Damaged silver coins clearly marked as such. Funny that NGC will only put those in NCS holders, but will slab these seawater damaged coins ambiguously denoted with a newly coined marketable phrase such as "shipwreck effect".... >>
TDN would you kindly point out where I said I agreed with NGC's decision to slab these coins. All I said was they slabbed them, doesn't offend me afterall they tell you what you are buying. There is no grade on them unlike the conserved Central America coins which doesn't offend me either. The premise of this thread was NGC sunk to a low, posted by someone who has posted before negatively and quickly followed up by others who have done the same. The point of my even responding to this thread was to point out that other companies including PCGS have done this. I just wondered if there would be the same level of righteous indignation.
Do you really care whether NGC or PCGS slabbed them, they are still the same coin and all NGC is saying they are what they are or are you still ticked about the 50% rule. The folks who want to purchase them have the same rights as those who want to purchase damaged Trade Dollars, which by the way I think are cool.
And Placid me disagreeing with you makes you or me no more or less ethical then you, it just means we have different experiences and viewpoints.
<< <i>I also believe after the 'modern craze' has ultimately run its course, the last and final untapped revenue stream for the grading services will be FOREIGN COINS as there are still billions of collectable foreign coins out there that could be graded, holdered and marketed. Look for major dealers and especially auction houses to begin seriously taking an interest in these markets in the upcoming years. >>
No! It is a business decision by all parties. The salvors have to sell these items to recover costs and make their stock holders happy. I only object to the Coin Vault handling the initial launch of these coins. Regardless of that point, anyone handling these items is in business to make a profit. The actual hype of adding certification is a little over the top and should Authenticated only to describing this issue of coins. I am waiting to see what the gold pieces will have on the label, but see no reason they shouldn't have a grade on them.
HEAD TUCKED AND ROLLING ALONG ENJOYING THE VIEW! [Most people I know!]
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
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<< <i>If a rep from NGC was helping hype these coins at the inflated prices the TV guys are charging, then I find that offensive. I would like to see a clip of this as I find it hard to believe that anyone at NGC would stoop to this. >>
MS68,
They did, and it's not the first time. NGC has had reps on Coin Vault several times in the past - most recently for introduction of the multi-coin holder. It is a very cozy relationship.
That said, there is no doubt in my mind that had PCGS been able to land a contract of this size, they'd be doing the same thing. Fact is, NGC kicked their butt from a business standpoint.
What's the problem with grading gold coins with only a minor silver % from a shipwreak?? Gold is inert, and silver only slowly reactive with sulfides in disaerobic sea water conditions. But the 10% or so copper in silver coins is highly reactive with any number of corrasive compounds at depth. In fact, it's unusual they aren't totally porous by now.
As for chopmarked Dollars and other stamps-NGC is silly!!! If a Brascher shows up in mint state are they going to body bag it!!!!!
<< <i>What's the problem with grading gold coins with only a minor silver % from a shipwreak?? Gold is inert, and silver only slowly reactive with sulfides in disaerobic sea water conditions. But the 10% or so copper in silver coins is highly reactive with any number of corrasive compounds at depth. In fact, it's unusual they aren't totally porous by now.
As for chopmarked Dollars and other stamps-NGC is silly!!! If a Brascher shows up in mint state are they going to body bag it!!!!! >>
What's the grade on those PCGS "certified" Central America nuggets again?
I don't see any problems with "Shipwreck Effect". No effort to deceive anyone was made, and the fact they were not graded makes it plain that anyone buying one is buying it for the history, not for the grade. Maybe some might think it is ghastly to capitalize on a disaster that claimed so many lives, but if you don't like that, you can collect only PCGS graded coins. PCGS would never sink so low as to certify coins simply because they were part of a horrific day that resulted in a massive loss of life.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
<< <i>What's the grade on those PCGS "certified" Central America nuggets again?
I don't see any problems with "Shipwreck Effect". No effort to deceive anyone was made, and the fact they were not graded makes it plain that anyone buying one is buying it for the history, not for the grade. Maybe some might think it is ghastly to capitalize on a disaster that claimed so many lives, but if you don't like that, you can collect only PCGS graded coins. PCGS would never sink so low as to certify coins simply because they were part of a horrific day that resulted in a massive loss of life. >>
I was surfing around last night and saw one of these on the Vault. I believe it was a seated half dollar.
Anyway, I recall Chambers saying that in order to see the pitting from the salt water, you would need a microscope. A microscope? Right............. if that were true, it would have a grade on it. All this coin is worth is a piece of history and for me, the price was way too high. I've got pieces of 200+ year old antique furniture that was cheaper than this coin and there's plenty of history right there. Not to mention a real resale value.
I kept surfing and remembered why I won't watch that crap anymore. It's lost it's comedy effect for me.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Does anyone know what these coins are bringing on the secondary market / eBay? This would be a real indication of their market value.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
NGC has been whoring themselves out to the likes of the Coin Vault for years. A while back I saw them (CV) offer NGC certified "Uncirculated" and "About Uncirculated" Morgans. They do this so that CV can pawn off 1000s of MS60-62 coins for what should be 64 money. I have never heard of PCGS doing these kind of crass endeavors and that is why, in my opinion, PCGS will always be better respected than NGC.
FWIW, I also happen to like these coins. Make fun of me if you wish, but they have a great story to tell, and one that is known for sure. That can not be said for many coins, and I see value in that. Nothing would make me happier than to see them drop in value -- so I can buy one.
All that being said, the truth of the matter is that the SS Republic coins on the Coin Vault are probably one of their better deals. You sure couldn't sell the NGC "Brilliant Uncirculated" coins sold on Coin Vault for even half their price, yet the SS Republic resale value is farily close from what I can see.
Have fun...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
I have never heard of PCGS doing these kind of crass endeavors and that is why, in my opinion, PCGS will always be better respected than NGC.
PCGS also gets its hands dirty with marketing gimmickery. Witness the First Strike and American Hero series of Silver American Eagles, two PCGS products that "dress up" an ounce of silver so that seller can get multiples of what the silver is really worth.
Maybe some might think it is ghastly to capitalize on a disaster that claimed so many lives, but if you don't like that, you can collect only PCGS graded coins. PCGS would never sink so low as to certify coins simply because they were part of a horrific day that resulted in a massive loss of life.
Well, what about the World Trade Center Recovery coins? This is where PCGS certified bullion recovered after 9/11 at Ground Zero. Seems to a whole lot more ghastly than certifying a shipwreck coin, which PCGS has also done (SS America and Brother Jonathon).
(Was the above post tongue-in-cheek and I am too dense to get it?)
<< <i>My grandfather got a Bronze Star for serving 4 tours in Vietnam and took 2 bullets in his chest. >>
Your grandfather served in Vietnam? Geez, now I know I'm getting old. BTW, please go shake his hand for me and tell him there are plenty of us who are grateful for guys like him.
>>
I agree Russ, Yes shake his hand for me also, there are many of us who are gratefull
<< <i>Maybe some might think it is ghastly to capitalize on a disaster that claimed so many lives, but if you don't like that, you can collect only PCGS graded coins. PCGS would never sink so low as to certify coins simply because they were part of a horrific day that resulted in a massive loss of life.
Well, what about the World Trade Center Recovery coins? This is where PCGS certified bullion recovered after 9/11 at Ground Zero. Seems to a whole lot more ghastly than certifying a shipwreck coin, which PCGS has also done (SS America and Brother Jonathon).
(Was the above post tongue-in-cheek and I am too dense to get it?) >>
RYK---I hope sellsatan was kidding. Otherwise, he should cut back on the Kool-aid.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
Excuse me, but there's a world of difference between removing encrustations from a gold coin and then certifying the coin and what has happened here. These silver coins are damaged by seawater to the extent that if they were removed from the holder they would be worth a tiny fraction of their current asking price. You cannot say the same about any conserved gold coin.
I feel a better comparison would be to PCGS holdering the chopmarked trade dollars. Damaged silver coins clearly marked as such. Funny that NGC will only put those in NCS holders, but will slab these seawater damaged coins ambiguously denoted with a newly coined marketable phrase such as "shipwreck effect"....
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>Placid- If a rep from NGC was helping hype these coins at the inflated prices the TV guys are charging, then I find that offensive. I would like to see a clip of this as I find it hard to believe that anyone at NGC would stoop to this. Everyone I have ever dealt with at NGC has always conducted themselves with extremely high ethical behavior and this would not fit that mold at all. >>
The guy was the vice president of ncs that was on when I was watching. There was also some rep from the odyssey salvage company there as well.
They were both on the show live with the shop at home Chambers guy and some other shop at home sales person.
The Chambers guy was putting the spin on the shipwreck effect that it was something special and making sound desireable.
The ncs guy then was talking about how if you use a 100 power electron microscope you could actaully still see parts of the coral embedded in the coin.
Then they were all like wow thats really cool.
If at some point anyone would have pointed out that the coins they were selling are the ones that after going thru the conservation process are the ones that were too damaged from the shipwreck effect to be graded then everything would have been acceptable to me.
Neil
<< <i>My point was and I will repeat it one more time, if you have a grudge against NGC for whatever reason so be it and vice versa, but before you willy nilly make a post condeming it why not include the fact that PCGS did the same thing and in your line of thinking they did a worse transgression they actually graded it. I would suggest that some of who posted here didn't realize the fact that this has been done before by PCGS.
Excuse me, but there's a world of difference between removing encrustations from a gold coin and then certifying the coin and what has happened here. These silver coins are damaged by seawater to the extent that if they were removed from the holder they would be worth a tiny fraction of their current asking price. You cannot say the same about any conserved gold coin.
I feel a better comparison would be to PCGS holdering the chopmarked trade dollars. Damaged silver coins clearly marked as such. Funny that NGC will only put those in NCS holders, but will slab these seawater damaged coins ambiguously denoted with a newly coined marketable phrase such as "shipwreck effect".... >>
TDN would you kindly point out where I said I agreed with NGC's decision to slab these coins. All I said was they slabbed them, doesn't offend me afterall they tell you what you are buying. There is no grade on them unlike the conserved Central America coins which doesn't offend me either. The premise of this thread was NGC sunk to a low, posted by someone who has posted before negatively and quickly followed up by others who have done the same. The point of my even responding to this thread was to point out that other companies including PCGS have done this. I just wondered if there would be the same level of righteous indignation.
Do you really care whether NGC or PCGS slabbed them, they are still the same coin and all NGC is saying they are what they are or are you still ticked about the 50% rule.
And Placid me disagreeing with you makes you or me no more or less ethical then you, it just means we have different experiences and viewpoints.
<< <i>I also believe after the 'modern craze' has ultimately run its course, the last and final untapped revenue stream for the grading services will be FOREIGN COINS as there are still billions of collectable foreign coins out there that could be graded, holdered and marketed. Look for major dealers and especially auction houses to begin seriously taking an interest in these markets in the upcoming years.
>>
I am waiting to see what the gold pieces will have on the label, but see no reason they shouldn't have a grade on them.
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
<< <i>If a rep from NGC was helping hype these coins at the inflated prices the TV guys are charging, then I find that offensive. I would like to see a clip of this as I find it hard to believe that anyone at NGC would stoop to this. >>
MS68,
They did, and it's not the first time. NGC has had reps on Coin Vault several times in the past - most recently for introduction of the multi-coin holder. It is a very cozy relationship.
That said, there is no doubt in my mind that had PCGS been able to land a contract of this size, they'd be doing the same thing. Fact is, NGC kicked their butt from a business standpoint.
Russ, NCNE
1862P Seated Liberty Half
ONLY 899.
"Shipwreck Effect" NGC Slab
TODAY ONLY
THANKS DAVID
As for chopmarked Dollars and other stamps-NGC is silly!!! If a Brascher shows up in mint state are they going to body bag it!!!!!
<< <i>What's the problem with grading gold coins with only a minor silver % from a shipwreak?? Gold is inert, and silver only slowly reactive with sulfides in disaerobic sea water conditions. But the 10% or so copper in silver coins is highly reactive with any number of corrasive compounds at depth. In fact, it's unusual they aren't totally porous by now.
As for chopmarked Dollars and other stamps-NGC is silly!!! If a Brascher shows up in mint state are they going to body bag it!!!!!
I don't see any problems with "Shipwreck Effect". No effort to deceive anyone was made, and the fact they were not graded makes it plain that anyone buying one is buying it for the history, not for the grade. Maybe some might think it is ghastly to capitalize on a disaster that claimed so many lives, but if you don't like that, you can collect only PCGS graded coins. PCGS would never sink so low as to certify coins simply because they were part of a horrific day that resulted in a massive loss of life.
<< <i>I still shake my head as to why the ANA supports NGC over PCGS. >>
Dude, it's about the money.
<< <i>What's the grade on those PCGS "certified" Central America nuggets again?
I don't see any problems with "Shipwreck Effect". No effort to deceive anyone was made, and the fact they were not graded makes it plain that anyone buying one is buying it for the history, not for the grade. Maybe some might think it is ghastly to capitalize on a disaster that claimed so many lives, but if you don't like that, you can collect only PCGS graded coins. PCGS would never sink so low as to certify coins simply because they were part of a horrific day that resulted in a massive loss of life. >>
Zackly!
Anyway, I recall Chambers saying that in order to see the pitting from the salt water, you would need a microscope. A microscope? Right............. if that were true, it would have a grade on it. All this coin is worth is a piece of history and for me, the price was way too high. I've got pieces of 200+ year old antique furniture that was cheaper than this coin and there's plenty of history right there. Not to mention a real resale value.
I kept surfing and remembered why I won't watch that crap anymore. It's lost it's comedy effect for me.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Here's the link: Teletrade Link-a-doobie-doo
FWIW, I also happen to like these coins. Make fun of me if you wish, but they have a great story to tell, and one that is known for sure. That can not be said for many coins, and I see value in that. Nothing would make me happier than to see them drop in value -- so I can buy one.
All that being said, the truth of the matter is that the SS Republic coins on the Coin Vault are probably one of their better deals. You sure couldn't sell the NGC "Brilliant Uncirculated" coins sold on Coin Vault for even half their price, yet the SS Republic resale value is farily close from what I can see.
Have fun...Mike
PCGS also gets its hands dirty with marketing gimmickery. Witness the First Strike and American Hero series of Silver American Eagles, two PCGS products that "dress up" an ounce of silver so that seller can get multiples of what the silver is really worth.
Well, what about the World Trade Center Recovery coins? This is where PCGS certified bullion recovered after 9/11 at Ground Zero. Seems to a whole lot more ghastly than certifying a shipwreck coin, which PCGS has also done (SS America and Brother Jonathon).
(Was the above post tongue-in-cheek and I am too dense to get it?)
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
<< <i>
<< <i>My grandfather got a Bronze Star for serving 4 tours in Vietnam and took 2 bullets in his chest. >>
Your grandfather served in Vietnam? Geez, now I know I'm getting old. BTW, please go shake his hand for me and tell him there are plenty of us who are grateful for guys like him.
>>
I agree Russ, Yes shake his hand for me also, there are many of us who are gratefull
Fly-In Club
My PCGS Registry Sets
<< <i>Maybe some might think it is ghastly to capitalize on a disaster that claimed so many lives, but if you don't like that, you can collect only PCGS graded coins. PCGS would never sink so low as to certify coins simply because they were part of a horrific day that resulted in a massive loss of life.
Well, what about the World Trade Center Recovery coins? This is where PCGS certified bullion recovered after 9/11 at Ground Zero. Seems to a whole lot more ghastly than certifying a shipwreck coin, which PCGS has also done (SS America and Brother Jonathon).
(Was the above post tongue-in-cheek and I am too dense to get it?) >>
RYK---I hope sellsatan was kidding. Otherwise, he should cut back on the Kool-aid.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire