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Has NGC "sunk" to a low with SS Republic slabs?
ohbaby
Posts: 768
Out of curiosity I looked at some of the SS Republic coins Coin Vault will be selling.
What I found somewhat confusing is the coins are "NGC Certified" but carry no grade. They are labeled as "Shipwreck Effect"! WTF is that? These shipwreck coins on Coin Vault's web site would normally be body bagged. They look bleached! Lifeless and dull. NGC has dropped a notch in my book by certifying these coins. Novice collectors will only be confused when they buy these overpriced coins and expect their cleaned ones that look the same to be worth much more.
Take a look at this dull, lifeless 1860-O graded "shipwrecked" half offered at $2,200. One graded MS63 in PCGS sold last week at Central States for $1,100.
What I found somewhat confusing is the coins are "NGC Certified" but carry no grade. They are labeled as "Shipwreck Effect"! WTF is that? These shipwreck coins on Coin Vault's web site would normally be body bagged. They look bleached! Lifeless and dull. NGC has dropped a notch in my book by certifying these coins. Novice collectors will only be confused when they buy these overpriced coins and expect their cleaned ones that look the same to be worth much more.
Take a look at this dull, lifeless 1860-O graded "shipwrecked" half offered at $2,200. One graded MS63 in PCGS sold last week at Central States for $1,100.
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The better coins will probably show up in real auctions.
The lowest priced one on the shop at home web site is $1,200.00
They don't list any graded coins or gold.
Wow! All coins are "pieces of history!"
Yes.
I have to agree this was a major mistake and will probably come back to haunt NGC with the collecting public.
Michael
Only those who do not know better and/or don't care about a grade to value will be buying these!
JMHO
Actually, no matter how these were listed, newbies will get smoked.
Newbies get smoked on actually graded low end NGC coins all the time, and also high grade moderns. Welcome to reality. Business 101 in 21st century America.
In defense of this particular coin this is a much better 1861-0 confederate obv die half. Also listed in Cherrypickers at a substantial premium. This is not just any cleaned seated half dollar.
No, it's not for me, but some newbie will buy this regardless how the coin was marked.
roadrunner
<< <i>I don't see the big deal here. >>
To me the big deal is that this is the first time NGC is slabbing problem coins. It lowers their credibility for me. I thought they started up NCS slabbing for problems coins...
Cameron Kiefer
"train wrecked" or "Ocean fodder."
roadrunner
Now that I think of it, anyone who has a $1000 to blow on TV, buys a certified coin with NO grade (that's why we certify 'em), and wants to purchase a coin graded "shipwrecked" that has sat at the ocean floor for 150 years,.....then they deserve to get it.
roadrunner
<< <i>I don't understand why NGC is being blamed for the rediculous price that is being charged for these coins. All they are doing is certifying that the coins are genuine and that they came from the shipreck. Would you hold NGC accountable if someone sold a common date NGC MS65 Saint for $5000? The responsible party should be the seller, not the grading service. >>
Dave, because its too easy of a concept to grasp. It's not fun if there isn't intrigue or bashable.
why not give NGC the benefit of the doubt?? perhaps they entered into a contract with the Salvor to conserve the coins through NCS and the Salvor wanted them in NGC holders instead of NCS holders. the compromise from NGC would be that they would do that and "no-grade" with the attached notation and the understanding that they'd be slammed by the PCGS forum!!!
this is all pure speculation on my part, but it's plausible, don't you think??
the other option would have been to holder them and grade them. in that case, our outrage would be justified. as things are, we're probably nitpicking.
al h.
<< <i>Would someone explain to me why its any different then PCGS slabbing the Central America gold coins recovered from the ocean. These were not only conserved they were graded. Or is this only a bad thing if NGC is on the slab?
You were not supposed to bring that up.
Since PCGS is the best they can easily grade cleaned coins as non cleaned and get away with it. I am just glad no one brought up the death coins PCGS slabbed, it would show how much lower they are to actually slab grave site artifacts just for their own financial gain.
tom
USMC
Viet Nam Vet
My understanding is that gold doesn't corrode in salt water. From what I know I will have no problem with NGC slabbing the gold from the SS Republic, at least as long as they didn't damage the coin removing corals or other growths.
Russ, NCNE
hey Carl
please excuse my impertinence, but like my dad always used to say, ignorance is no excuse........ if the folks buying stuff on the "Coin Net" or whatever it's called don't have the sense to educate themselves, why would that be the fault of NGC?? and why should NGC be expected to cater to the lowest-common-educational-denominator??
this is just a furthering of the effect i call "The Dumbing of America" where things are supposed to be geared to the least intelligent to protect us all. that's a bunch of crap. yet, it goes on all around us because people as a whole are lazy. the readily touted example is of Granny getting hosed, but it probably happens more often to average Americans who are just too lazy to invest some time into where they spend their money because of lazy dreams of the get rich quick scheme. oh well, it's nothing new. just go stand in the lottery line some evening around 7 PM. those folks could use some lessons in the law of averages or calculating odds.
al h.
As for newbies and people being lazy....nobody will ever "fix" that problem. Heck, I don't even think it is a "problem."
We will always have smart people and people who research before they make an investment or purchase, and we will always have idiots who just buy whatever they want, when they want it, and could care less about the value or price.
This is life.
Who buys from from Coin Vault? Serious collectors? Knowledgeable collectors? People who buy from CV are novices who make impulse purchases. They may know NGC and PCGS in passing and feel it's a name they can trust but in this instance they are getting ripped 2 ways. A lousy coin at a lousy price.
Longer term do you think when people realized their $2,000 coin is only fetching $150-200 they will delve even deeper into coin collecting? As a kid I got ripped by Littleton and abandoned coins for nearly 40 years. I'm certain at a $2k price tag these are adults buying and years from now they will swear off coins and tell their friends of their negative experience with NGC. CV will have long since changed their name.
Nothing like compromising your name brand to make a buck!
My mother-in-law bought a whole bunch of them state quarter "platinum" and "gold" sets for the grand kids and after I found out I told her in a nice way to check with me next time and I can show her some nice coins to buy the kids for the same price she spent that will be worth 10 times more down the road. She said "these will be worth a lot more than the regular quarters because they are gold and platinum."
I love her, but she is the "average" american.
<< <i>Would someone explain to me why its any different then PCGS slabbing the Central America gold coins recovered from the ocean. These were not only conserved they were graded. Or is this only a bad thing if NGC is on the slab? >>
<< <i>no worse than the Jessica Lynch coin. a PoW for a week and now she's making a ton of money. how about the real heros, the Viet Nam Vets. They spent years as Pow's and actually fought a war. you'd have to pay me to take a coin signed by a 1 week POW. She's just a publicity stunt to try and justify another "Walk in the Desert". 700 casulaties versus 50,000+ for Viet Nam vets. How about a John McCain coin, he spent 9 years as a POW, not days like lynch. >>
'nuff said!!
She was "detained" in a hospital for a week and the doctors tried to give her back but the Army would not take her because they were preparing for the "snatch and grab" operation that they wanted filmed on TV because then they look good and it is dramatical.
What a joke, a big fat sick joke. She is no hero.
If a guy would have admitted he had gotten blown out of a humvee and then dropped to his knees and started praying....he would have been court martialed and sent to prison labeled a coward. But when a cute little girl does it.....she is a hero.
Sorry, I know it's off the subject, but her name was brought up and that whole fiasco sickens me because it is a joke.
I wonder if she gives any of her new millions to the other Iraw "POWs" who have gotten nothing because the press did not like their story as much as Lynch's.
My grandfather got a Bronze Star for serving 4 tours in Vietnam and took 2 bullets in his chest.
PCGS did not call him for a coin deal. Neither did CNN.
<< <i>I watch those guys on the HSN coins shows on TV and they are hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. They can be educational as far as learning about certain coins and their history, but listening to what these guys say to viewers to get them to buy the coins is the funniest thing I have ever seen. I see right through everything they say because I have been collecting since 1983 and know a thing or two. But the "average" american tuning in know nothing about the difference with slabbing companies, the difference between an 1878 Morgan grading MS67 versus a state quarter grading MS67, etc. etc. The fact that these shows still air should tell us all something. They are reaping in profits all the time, selling in bulk to "average" americans who believe them when they talk about how valuable and how much of an investment a roll of MS60 JFK halves will be for the low price of $49.99. >>
Okay I had to turn my computer back on and come into the webboard just to say that the HSN Coin Collector: Special Edition is on TV right now. My prices were all wrong. They have a 20 coin roll of the 1964 JFK Half with a retail of $190, HSN price of $109, but on sale now for $99. They are chattering on about how the silver reserves are all gone and there are 160 million coin collectors (yeah right - everyone that keeps a state quarter in a jar is hardly a coin collector) and that these coins are "scarce" and prices will be shooting up. It is really funny to watch. By the end of it they will be sold out I bet. And every time they have these JFK halves they always say this is the last time they will have them or that they can rarely ever find them. Man this is some funny stuff....you gotta tune in and watch these guys.
But people buy from them...because they don't know any better.
When I saw the story about pcgs and the lynch coins, I thought it was a tacky grab for publicity in an age when patriotism means 100% support for anything military. I don't see anything wrong with ngc holdering coins from that shipwreck, since all they are doing is authenticating the coins. However, I do think that moves like these eventually cause educated collectors to start thinking that the TPG is "selling out" and becoming less respectable. It appears to me that both pcgs and ngc are in a scramble to find new and bigger ways to outdo one another in the realm of publicity and public exposure- when I think that most of us would just like them to focus on customer service and grading consistency.
<< <i>My grandfather got a Bronze Star for serving 4 tours in Vietnam and took 2 bullets in his chest. >>
Your grandfather served in Vietnam? Geez, now I know I'm getting old. BTW, please go shake his hand for me and tell him there are plenty of us who are grateful for guys like him.
Russ, NCNE
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These coins are at best "Corroded - AU Details"
Apparantly, nobody at PCGS or NGC really "get" this.
That's all I have to say.
Just a thought...
Does any one know for sure what all the ngc graded gold and silver coins from the S.S Republic will look like in 10-15 years?
I guess if the graded ones turn in the slab you could send them back under the grade guarantee policy if the company's are still in business.
The main thing I don't like about the way it was done is the connection with the salvage people ngc-ncs-coin vault and the way it was presented as shipwreck effect instead of damage and while the ncs and salvage reps were on the show when Chambers was explaining how the "shipwreck effect" on the coins was so special these people didn't say squat about how it was a form of damage and the reason the coins didn't carry a grade.
If people choose to buy these its there business regardless of who holders them. It's also called personal responsibility, I doubt that many of you including myself lose much sleep because the TV coin shows sell coins. BTW they have sold them in PCGS holders yet I don't see the volume of criticism thrown their way.
Unfortunately too this process rears its head across the street in reverse. These boards are becoming more and more full of misinformation and levels of emotion instead of intelligent comments then anytime in the past 2 years.
<< <i>I don't understand why NGC is being blamed for the rediculous price that is being charged for these coins. All they are doing is certifying that the coins are genuine and that they came from the shipreck. Would you hold NGC accountable if someone sold a common date NGC MS65 Saint for $5000? The responsible party should be the seller, not the grading service. >>
A ngc/ncs rep was present during the selling and taking part in the hype of the selling. So can you then see why ngc is being blamed?
<< <i><Ya know...It is strange that these coins are certified, but it's really no different than the PCGS graded Central America gold coins is it? >
I also agree. PCGS made a mistake before, and I don't think there is any way to defend its decision to slab AND GRADE, the coins. NGC is not quite as bad, since it is simply encapsulating the coin and vouching for its origin. The value is the pedigree I suppose.
<< <i>
<< <i><Ya know...It is strange that these coins are certified, but it's really no different than the PCGS graded Central America gold coins is it? >
I also agree. PCGS made a mistake before, and I don't think there is any way to defend its decision to slab AND GRADE, the coins. NGC is not quite as bad, since it is simply encapsulating the coin and vouching for its origin. The value is the pedigree I suppose. >>
That was just phase one. The ngc graded silver and gold coins from the shipwreck are yet to be sold.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand why NGC is being blamed for the rediculous price that is being charged for these coins. All they are doing is certifying that the coins are genuine and that they came from the shipreck. Would you hold NGC accountable if someone sold a common date NGC MS65 Saint for $5000? The responsible party should be the seller, not the grading service. >>
A ngc/ncs rep was present during the selling and taking part in the hype of the selling. So can you then see why ngc is being blamed? >>
So they made a business decision, the market will dictate whether or not it was the right decision. My point was and I will repeat it one more time, if you have a grudge against NGC for whatever reason so be it and vice versa, but before you willy nilly make a post condeming it why not include the fact that PCGS did the same thing and in your line of thinking they did a worse transgression they actually graded it. I would suggest that some of who posted here didn't realize the fact that this has been done before by PCGS. They made a business decision too and the market has reacted to it. I can't go around protecting everyone who wants to plunk down 5 or ten grand for a shipwrecked coin nor would I if I could. These companies have to make money to stay in business and to compete with one another. As Keets pointed out this deal was hammered about between the respective parties. It looks like another business deal was hammered out between Ron Gillio and one of the TPD's for the Reno Hoard. No one will force anyone to buy these coins either. If one of the TPG's beats out another for these types of deals I so what, I could care less, doesn't change my opinion of either company.
I just don't understand what the "blame" is that some of you are talking about.
<< <i>If you don't get it then thats fine. You probably never will. >>
It's not that I don't get your point, at this stage and experience in life I am way past that.