CAM vs. Old Green Tag - Survey...input appreciated

FinallyHere · February 18, 2004 11:59PM

I've got a question for you all.

If you were offered a coin in an old green tag PCGS holder and it was priced as a cameo, and was obviously a no brainer cameo, would you buy it as is...in the old green tag holder......or prefer it in a new holder with the CAM designation listed??

Edited to ask: If Dealer X had a coin in an old green tag holder and was asking X% more for it as a cameo, guaranteed it to grade as cameo, would you rather leave it in the green tag holder or prefer to have it in a new holder and graded as cameo? Let's say for the sake of argument the premium is 20% over a non cameo.

Really would appreciate the input from board members.

Thanks in advance.

Mike

kieferscoins · February 19, 2004 12:03AM

If I had a registry set I would want the new holder with the designations, but since I don't, I would prefer the older holder with no designation.

Cameron Kiefer

lordmarcovan · February 19, 2004 12:05AM

Obviously I would go with the holder that had CAM on the label. Even with a "no brainer" CAM in an undesignated holder, there is gonna be some element of doubt. If I pay a premium for CAM, it's gotta be on the label.

Now I have bought some nice CAM coinage in undesignated holders, but at only a small premium (if any) over the non-CAM price.

boiler78 · February 19, 2004 12:13AM

Mike
I actually prefer the green tag holders and the lack of a cameo designation on an otherwise no brainer cameo wouldn't concern me in the slightest.

Mark

Lakesammman · February 19, 2004 12:22AM

I'm with Boiler, especially important with copper coins.

If your insecure about it being a cam, and the dealers guarantee might evaporate over time, then get it in the cam holder, especially if your paying a significant premium.

MrEureka · February 19, 2004 12:26AM

Why would anyone need to be told that a coin is "CAM"? Isn't it obvious?

BillJones · February 19, 2004 12:33AM

It does not matter if the coin is a "no brainer" cameo or not. What matters is what PCGS calls it if you are paying the premium for the cameo. Therefore if the seller is asking "all the money" for the cameo I'd have to think long and hard about buying the coin because there is no guarantee that it will get a cameo if you send it in. I'd proably pay a premium for piece if I really liked it, but I would not pay the same premium for a piece that is not marked for the premium price.

And yes, I do buy coins not the holder, but part of the package is the cameo designation, which carries a premium. If that designation is not there, I'd pay part of the premium, but not all of it.

nepbrs44 · February 19, 2004 12:35AM

<< I buy coins not, holders or the color of holder lables.

Same here. I buy the coin not holder

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · February 19, 2004 12:38AM

Mike

Is a shot upgrade ? Is it a shot Deep cameo ?

I love those old green holders !!!!

stewart

boiler78 · February 19, 2004 12:43AM

Bill
I prefer the green holder because I think the coins look better with the green tag not because there is any implied difference in grading standards. I also prefer the clear plastic of PCGS holders over the NGC white core but I still buy NGC coins. It all boils down to the coin that is in the holder.

The situation is a bit different with red copper and the older holders do provide some reassurance of stability.

Mark

FinallyHere · February 19, 2004 12:43AM

Perhaps I worded this question incorrectly. I was merely asking if you would pay a premium for a cameo if it was not in a holder that said it was cameo? I'm not asking what, if any, the premium should be for the cameo designation, but only if you would pay a premium.....whatever that might be.....for a coin that was not graded as such. No doubt there are plenty of coins in green tag holders that are incorrectly graded (overgraded and undergraded alike)...I'm not debating that.

Thanks for the input!! I'd like to hear from more board members on this.

Mike

boiler78 · February 19, 2004 12:48AM

Yes

coinguy1 · February 19, 2004 12:51AM

Mike, speaking as a dealer buying for re-sale:

If the coin is a no-brainer Cameo in my opinion, I would be willing to pay the premium.
If it is iffy, I would decline.

A much tougher question for me would be - what if the coin looked to be a "Deep Cameo" and was being priced as such, at a much greater price premium?

Unless some discount were involved, I likely would not take the risk.

puff · February 19, 2004 1:16AM

Mike......

If I were paying CAM/premium prices for a coin that is slabbed but doesn't have the CAM designation, as a collector I would not pay CAM prices..... Because if I were to buy a coin thinking it might upgrade to CAM if resubmitted to PCGS, but didn't upgrade, and the time came for me to resell the coin for whatever reason I would lose money on it, and I don't think that is a wise thing to do IMHO.

Mark · February 19, 2004 2:10AM

Mike:

I presume you ask this question as a dealer who will resell the coin. That given, I think buyers, on the average, will pay more for a coin in a CAM holder than the same coin in a non-CAM holder. Given that the coin is currently in a non-CAM holder, there is a risk that when submitted to PCGS the coin won't be indicated as a CAM. You ahve seen the coin, so you know if the risk is large or small. But I would adjust my offer downward from the price in a CAM holder by the amount of the risk--the more risk, the larger the downward adjustment. So, as long as the price when selling the coin in a new CAM holder exceeds the price when selling the coin in an old green holder, I think you should adjust your buying price downward.

On the other hand, you describe the coin as being in a green PCGS holder. If the green holder brings a premium price from buyers and if the premium is large enough, then you probably would set the buying price of the coin based on the "greenness" of the holder rather than the CAM of the coin. (

)

Mark

jbsteven · February 19, 2004 3:23AM

I would pay a premium and then crack it out and submit it. If it is a no brianer CAM and solid for the grade there is nothing to lose.

FinallyHere · February 19, 2004 4:37AM

I presume you ask this question as a dealer who will resell the coin. That given, I think buyers, on the average, will pay more for a coin in a CAM holder than the same coin in a non-CAM holder

Mark - that's exactly what I was getting at......

I wanted to know how collectors felt about that scenario.

I truly appreciate ALL who have replied with their thoughts on this.

Mark · February 19, 2004 4:43AM

Mike:

If you have such a coin and if I am interested in it when it comes back in a new CAM holder, then I think it's quite clear that I should be allowed to buy the coin at the (much) lower green-label price!!

Mark

coinguy1 · February 19, 2004 4:47AM

<< Edited to ask: If Dealer X had a coin in an old green tag holder and was asking X% more for it as a cameo, guaranteed it to grade as cameo, would you rather leave it in the green tag holder or prefer to have it in a new holder and graded as cameo? Let's say for the sake of argument the premium is 20% over a non cameo. >>

I'd rather have it in the newer Cameo holder.

That way I wouldn't have to worry about:

1) Spending time and grading/postage fees to try for the Cameo designation;
2) What if I paid the premium and for some reason the grading company declined to award the Cameo designation? Then I'd want/need to send it back to the dealer for my refund - that might be uncomfortable for each of us;
3) What if I sent the coin to be re-graded and it got finger-printed or damaged at the grading company?;
4) What if it got lost or stolen in the mail?
5) What if the dealer was no longer in business?

Too many unknowns and risks for me, as a dealer or collector. My answer might change if the premium were noticeably smaller and/or if I thought the coin could upgrade numerically, too.

FinallyHere · February 19, 2004 4:49AM

If Dealer X had a coin in an old green tag holder and was asking X% more for it as a cameo

Mark - I don't recall offering said coin at the "(much) lower green-label price" But, you're a wise man to have tried....

Mike

northcoin · February 19, 2004 5:01AM

Last year I purchased a PCGS labeled Proof Cameo Silver Dollar. I learned later it had been in an auction several months earler in a PCGS holder (green I believe) without the Cam designation. The auction price was more than $1500 less than I paid for the coin as a cameo. So I would have to agree that unless it is in the cameo holder it is not going to command a cameo price even if it is a cameo. Everyone at that auction could see that it was a "no-brainer" cameo but no one was willing to pay the added premium without the label.

Shamika · February 19, 2004 5:01AM

At the very least, I would expect a discount due to the resubmission cost associated with getting a CAM designation.

barberlover · February 19, 2004 5:17AM

Mike,

I thought about not answering this because of a collectors "slant" on it but here goes. I never liked the adding of cam or Dcam or pl or dmpl to coins because it was a way to drive up prices that wouldn't be so high without the right words on the holder. I guess the feeling of most is having the words on the holder brings more money from the majority of people.

Les

jom · February 19, 2004 5:30AM

<< I never liked the adding of cam or Dcam or pl or dmpl to coins because it was a way to drive up prices that wouldn't be so high without the right words on the holder >>

Totally agree. In fact, if that wasn't the case then Mike would have needed to ask the question.

I think you could also generalize this question: Such as:

Would you pay a premium for a "no-brainer" MS65 in an MS64 holder?
Would you pay a premium for a "no-brainer" FB Merc that was in a non-FB holder?
etc etc

See what I mean? To answer Mike's question direction: I would have to say no to the Cameo question as I don't buy proof coins. BUT I'd say yes to the questions I posed.

jom

FinallyHere · February 19, 2004 5:38AM

Jom and Les,

You both make excellent points...and Jom - you are correct about me not needing to ask the question. But things such as they are with grading, and we can't change that, I thought it was a good question.

As for using FB vs. Non FB as a comparison, I would not go that far Jom. In my case what I'm talking about is a 15-20% premium over non cameo....in the case of Full Band vs. Non Full Band...the premiums are going to be huge, 100-200-300% or maybe more. I'm not sure I would use that as a comparison due to the premiums involved. The same can be said for going from numerical grade to the next grade. In most cases, the premium is going to be very big.

Great input!!!

Mike

Russ · February 19, 2004 6:04AM

<< In my case what I'm talking about is a 15-20% premium over non cameo >>

There are coins where a cameo premium would compare quite well to Jom's analogy of non FB vs FB. Take, for example, my favorite coin - the Accented Hair Kennedy. Graded at PR68, it's a $90 coin. Add Cameo to the label, it becomes a $600 coin. Add Deep Cameo to the label, it becomes a $6000 coin. It all boils down to the degree of difficulty in finding cameo pieces.

Edited to add: So, if you have a green label non-designated obvious cameo Accented Hair, I'll be happy to buy it at a 15% to 20% premium.

Russ, NCNE

FinallyHere · February 19, 2004 6:09AM

Russ,

Your point is made, but I was speaking generally about comparing FB to non FB versus CAM and non CAM. There are always exceptions...your case being one of them, and certainly Deep Cameo would change things as well.

Mike

Russ · February 19, 2004 6:18AM

<< There are always exceptions... >>

Mike,

There are many that I can thing of right off the top of my head. Take proof Franklins, for example. For many of the years, the cameo premium is huge. Or, the 1965 to 1967 SMS coins, (less so with 1967 than the other years). And these are just the common coins. Think about proof Walkers. I'd think a 1942 PR67 in cameo would have a gigantic premium over the same coin in PR67 brilliant.

I assume you're talking about much earlier material? Are the cameo premiums really that low on the "classic" stuff? Is that because the foundation value for a brilliant starts at a higher level?

Russ, NCNE

FinallyHere · February 19, 2004 6:25AM

Russ,

The Walkers are an excellent example!! You're right...they bring huge premiums as Cameo.....and most I've seen designated as such are not cameo....IMHO. But, if it says it....they bring it!!

Yes, what I am asking about does happen to be an earlier coin....pre 1860. And without getting into specifics about what it is...don't want to be selling a coin here

just asking a general question....the premiums are not the same as in the examples you have used.

Mike

puff · February 19, 2004 6:43AM

>>>>The Walkers are an excellent example!! You're right...they bring huge premiums as Cameo.....and most I've seen designated as such are not cameo....IMHO. But, if it says it....they bring it!!<<<<

Mike......... With the prices you charge me for Walkers they sure as hell don't have to be cameo to pay a premium!

FinallyHere · February 19, 2004 7:51AM

Mike......... With the prices you charge me for Walkers they sure as hell don't have to be cameo to pay a premium!

Ed, I don't charge everyone a premium......

...

Mike

lclugza · February 19, 2004 8:21AM

Don't many of the early PCGS blue label slabs also lack the cameo designation (on coins that would now get the cameo designation)?

jom · February 19, 2004 10:14AM

<< As for using FB vs. Non FB as a comparison, I would not go that far Jom. >>

Well, I didn't understand your question well enough. But I think it still holds whether you are tallking about FB (or no), FBL (or no), MS64 or 65, etc etc. The question is: would you be willing to pay a premium for a coin even if it didn't have the "label"? Remember I didn't say FULL premium, just A premium.

My answer, in general, would be yes because I don't really care what the label says anyway. Especially if it's a "no-brainer" whatever....

jom

ConstellatioCollector · February 19, 2004 11:32AM

<>

I take both into account. I do love

appeal though!

CAM vs. Old Green Tag - Survey...input appreciated

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