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CAM vs. Old Green Tag - Survey...input appreciated
FinallyHere
Posts: 821 ✭✭✭
I've got a question for you all.
If you were offered a coin in an old green tag PCGS holder and it was priced as a cameo, and was obviously a no brainer cameo, would you buy it as is...in the old green tag holder......or prefer it in a new holder with the CAM designation listed??
Edited to ask: If Dealer X had a coin in an old green tag holder and was asking X% more for it as a cameo, guaranteed it to grade as cameo, would you rather leave it in the green tag holder or prefer to have it in a new holder and graded as cameo? Let's say for the sake of argument the premium is 20% over a non cameo.
Really would appreciate the input from board members.
Thanks in advance.
Mike
If you were offered a coin in an old green tag PCGS holder and it was priced as a cameo, and was obviously a no brainer cameo, would you buy it as is...in the old green tag holder......or prefer it in a new holder with the CAM designation listed??
Edited to ask: If Dealer X had a coin in an old green tag holder and was asking X% more for it as a cameo, guaranteed it to grade as cameo, would you rather leave it in the green tag holder or prefer to have it in a new holder and graded as cameo? Let's say for the sake of argument the premium is 20% over a non cameo.
Really would appreciate the input from board members.
Thanks in advance.
Mike
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Comments
Cameron Kiefer
Now I have bought some nice CAM coinage in undesignated holders, but at only a small premium (if any) over the non-CAM price.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
I actually prefer the green tag holders and the lack of a cameo designation on an otherwise no brainer cameo wouldn't concern me in the slightest.
Mark
If your insecure about it being a cam, and the dealers guarantee might evaporate over time, then get it in the cam holder, especially if your paying a significant premium.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
And yes, I do buy coins not the holder, but part of the package is the cameo designation, which carries a premium. If that designation is not there, I'd pay part of the premium, but not all of it.
<< <i>I buy coins not, holders or the color of holder lables.
Same here. I buy the coin not holder
Bust Half & FSB Merc Collector
Is a shot upgrade ? Is it a shot Deep cameo ?
I love those old green holders !!!!
stewart
I prefer the green holder because I think the coins look better with the green tag not because there is any implied difference in grading standards. I also prefer the clear plastic of PCGS holders over the NGC white core but I still buy NGC coins. It all boils down to the coin that is in the holder.
The situation is a bit different with red copper and the older holders do provide some reassurance of stability.
Mark
Thanks for the input!! I'd like to hear from more board members on this.
Mike
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
If the coin is a no-brainer Cameo in my opinion, I would be willing to pay the premium.
If it is iffy, I would decline.
A much tougher question for me would be - what if the coin looked to be a "Deep Cameo" and was being priced as such, at a much greater price premium?
If I were paying CAM/premium prices for a coin that is slabbed but doesn't have the CAM designation, as a collector I would not pay CAM prices..... Because if I were to buy a coin thinking it might upgrade to CAM if resubmitted to PCGS, but didn't upgrade, and the time came for me to resell the coin for whatever reason I would lose money on it, and I don't think that is a wise thing to do IMHO.
I presume you ask this question as a dealer who will resell the coin. That given, I think buyers, on the average, will pay more for a coin in a CAM holder than the same coin in a non-CAM holder. Given that the coin is currently in a non-CAM holder, there is a risk that when submitted to PCGS the coin won't be indicated as a CAM. You ahve seen the coin, so you know if the risk is large or small. But I would adjust my offer downward from the price in a CAM holder by the amount of the risk--the more risk, the larger the downward adjustment. So, as long as the price when selling the coin in a new CAM holder exceeds the price when selling the coin in an old green holder, I think you should adjust your buying price downward.
On the other hand, you describe the coin as being in a green PCGS holder. If the green holder brings a premium price from buyers and if the premium is large enough, then you probably would set the buying price of the coin based on the "greenness" of the holder rather than the CAM of the coin. (
Mark
Mark - that's exactly what I was getting at......
I truly appreciate ALL who have replied with their thoughts on this.
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
If you have such a coin and if I am interested in it when it comes back in a new CAM holder, then I think it's quite clear that I should be allowed to buy the coin at the (much) lower green-label price!!
Mark
<< <i>Edited to ask: If Dealer X had a coin in an old green tag holder and was asking X% more for it as a cameo, guaranteed it to grade as cameo, would you rather leave it in the green tag holder or prefer to have it in a new holder and graded as cameo? Let's say for the sake of argument the premium is 20% over a non cameo. >>
I'd rather have it in the newer Cameo holder.
That way I wouldn't have to worry about:
1) Spending time and grading/postage fees to try for the Cameo designation;
2) What if I paid the premium and for some reason the grading company declined to award the Cameo designation? Then I'd want/need to send it back to the dealer for my refund - that might be uncomfortable for each of us;
3) What if I sent the coin to be re-graded and it got finger-printed or damaged at the grading company?;
4) What if it got lost or stolen in the mail?
5) What if the dealer was no longer in business?
Too many unknowns and risks for me, as a dealer or collector. My answer might change if the premium were noticeably smaller and/or if I thought the coin could upgrade numerically, too.
Mark - I don't recall offering said coin at the "(much) lower green-label price" But, you're a wise man to have tried....
Mike
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
I thought about not answering this because of a collectors "slant" on it but here goes. I never liked the adding of cam or Dcam or pl or dmpl to coins because it was a way to drive up prices that wouldn't be so high without the right words on the holder. I guess the feeling of most is having the words on the holder brings more money from the majority of people.
Les
<< <i>I never liked the adding of cam or Dcam or pl or dmpl to coins because it was a way to drive up prices that wouldn't be so high without the right words on the holder >>
Totally agree. In fact, if that wasn't the case then Mike would have needed to ask the question.
I think you could also generalize this question: Such as:
Would you pay a premium for a "no-brainer" MS65 in an MS64 holder?
Would you pay a premium for a "no-brainer" FB Merc that was in a non-FB holder?
etc etc
See what I mean? To answer Mike's question direction: I would have to say no to the Cameo question as I don't buy proof coins. BUT I'd say yes to the questions I posed.
jom
You both make excellent points...and Jom - you are correct about me not needing to ask the question. But things such as they are with grading, and we can't change that, I thought it was a good question.
As for using FB vs. Non FB as a comparison, I would not go that far Jom. In my case what I'm talking about is a 15-20% premium over non cameo....in the case of Full Band vs. Non Full Band...the premiums are going to be huge, 100-200-300% or maybe more. I'm not sure I would use that as a comparison due to the premiums involved. The same can be said for going from numerical grade to the next grade. In most cases, the premium is going to be very big.
Great input!!!
Mike
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
<< <i>In my case what I'm talking about is a 15-20% premium over non cameo >>
There are coins where a cameo premium would compare quite well to Jom's analogy of non FB vs FB. Take, for example, my favorite coin - the Accented Hair Kennedy. Graded at PR68, it's a $90 coin. Add Cameo to the label, it becomes a $600 coin. Add Deep Cameo to the label, it becomes a $6000 coin. It all boils down to the degree of difficulty in finding cameo pieces.
Edited to add: So, if you have a green label non-designated obvious cameo Accented Hair, I'll be happy to buy it at a 15% to 20% premium.
Russ, NCNE
Your point is made, but I was speaking generally about comparing FB to non FB versus CAM and non CAM. There are always exceptions...your case being one of them, and certainly Deep Cameo would change things as well.
Mike
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
<< <i>There are always exceptions... >>
Mike,
There are many that I can thing of right off the top of my head. Take proof Franklins, for example. For many of the years, the cameo premium is huge. Or, the 1965 to 1967 SMS coins, (less so with 1967 than the other years). And these are just the common coins. Think about proof Walkers. I'd think a 1942 PR67 in cameo would have a gigantic premium over the same coin in PR67 brilliant.
I assume you're talking about much earlier material? Are the cameo premiums really that low on the "classic" stuff? Is that because the foundation value for a brilliant starts at a higher level?
Russ, NCNE
The Walkers are an excellent example!! You're right...they bring huge premiums as Cameo.....and most I've seen designated as such are not cameo....IMHO. But, if it says it....they bring it!!
Yes, what I am asking about does happen to be an earlier coin....pre 1860. And without getting into specifics about what it is...don't want to be selling a coin here
Mike
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
Mike......... With the prices you charge me for Walkers they sure as hell don't have to be cameo to pay a premium!
Ed, I don't charge everyone a premium......
Mike
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
<< <i>As for using FB vs. Non FB as a comparison, I would not go that far Jom. >>
Well, I didn't understand your question well enough. But I think it still holds whether you are tallking about FB (or no), FBL (or no), MS64 or 65, etc etc. The question is: would you be willing to pay a premium for a coin even if it didn't have the "label"? Remember I didn't say FULL premium, just A premium.
My answer, in general, would be yes because I don't really care what the label says anyway. Especially if it's a "no-brainer" whatever....
jom
I take both into account. I do love
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