I don't know any of the parties involved, and am not addressing them in particular.
However, it would seem that the only player in the scenario with the REAL facts, was the owner/dealer1, who ultimately sold the coin to O'Brien. I think it is certainly plausable that the original dealer/owner was playing both sides . . . of the coin!
I also find it very interesting WHO ALL in this thread has now become the self-appointed "truth-seekers." It seems to me I got beaten up pretty badly a couple of months ago for trying to get to the bottom of a story also.
So, I'm going to sit in my glass house while others lob rocks, and just wait to hear Bob's side of the story, which just might be compatible with O'Brien's version.
I've always wondered if people do this in real estate. Using a realtor is a complete scam IMO, 6% of the value? please. It can take a homeowner 5-10 years to acquire 6% of the equity of their house, and the realtor gets it all for a few hours work?
Wow this statement really got me going....my wife is a broker spending years in the business.....believe no broker makes 6% for a few hours work....as bad as my hours are being a coin dealer hers are twice as bad....and that 6% is usually split 4 ways between selling agent, selling broker office, buyer agent, and buyer agent office.....my wife works 24/7 with customers calling day and night and I mean night.....driving here there and everywhere.....and for every 10 customers maybe 1 does buy (and she is one of the top brokers)....so please dont use real estate as an example!
I have been in mourning over my parents death the last few weeks. I thought I would take a stroll and look over a few posts here.
After reading all these posts in total astonishment..........not even any pics about these coins.......I think I will go back to mourning. But first........I have to go puke.
As far as I'm concerned the Buyer isn't obligated to do a damn thing. It is this way in CA real estate. The buyer is only obligated to the amount of his deposit. If Park Ave. didn't get a down payment to hold that is his problem so maybe he won't do a deal like that in the future.
The REAL problem here is the other dealer. I agree with Braddick's original post. The other dealer has an ETHICAL duty to give Park Ave. a cut in the deal since Park Ave. FOUND the buyer. So I guess I agree partly with dorkkarl in this.
Invoicing for $15K. I better know that party so well, that I would trust them with my life. As far as I am concerned, both are to blame., it is a contractual agreement. I agree with GSAGUY 100%, Bob got stiffed big time!!!! I have a feeling those guys will not have a good reputation in the hobby for long.
WOW..... i have sit here and read all 8 friggin pages of this and have gone from thinkin coincollectors were like garage sale browsers... to thinkin coin dealers are like used carsalesmen in Arkansas.... i am so confused.... but when i shake a man's hand i live up to my word... in this case i think the buyer may have only been giving his word to think about it!!!!!! and now the dealer is trying to twist the facts to meet his agenda... I don't know either one of these guys, but it sure seems like the two dealers involved would sell their mother if they could make a buck!!!!!
<< <i>He agreed to buy the coin for $16,500 after I shared my cost of $15,500 with him. He was walking the show with his daughter and had not brought his check book so I invoiced the coin to him and he signed the invoice and we shook hands. >>
I still can't get past this SIGNED invoice. Anybody here ever have to sign an invoice to place a coin on hold for 12 hours?
<< <i>Why would a dealer who is attending the same show have another dealer sell his coin with potental to lose 7 % profit on such a large sum of money? Sounds to like Bob (park avenue) has some explaining to do based on what the buyer said. >>
Maybe because just a couple of weeks prior to the show, the first dealer was trying to sell the coin on Ebay for just $13,500. It's in a couple of posts.
was the other coin he bought from the same guy on the same invoice???? I don't know, just 2 entirely different stories, but so far the buyers adds up more......
<< <i>(Why was it you felt compelled to SIGN a receipt to hold the coin until the following day?)
Simply put, he asked me to do so and I did. I saw no reason not too.
Not everyone is an expert in all of the workings of the coin business.
For those curious as to the coin in question, it is listed in my Seated Quarter Registry. >>
I can see that an Honest man would have No problem doing so either. I still think you were screwed. Some on these boards will Nit Pick to take attention away from the real issue.
Where Is This Parkave Person Who had no problem typing away earlier.
<< <i>Wouldn't it be nice if the collector came here and provided his own defense, instead of hiding behind someone's skirt?
>>
heh, hey d-pot you talking about yourself and your kettle with that blurb are you not? and talkin about skankyness and the like ? you spent a lot of time in front of the mirror today didnt you? skirts? hiding? chickensh*t? yeah that was YOU refering to YOURself wasnt it?
The purpose of the post was to get feedback on the ethics of those involved in the deal. I never named names and never planned to. I was just curious about how board members would feel if it were them.
From the number of posts it seems that we can all learn something here today. Isn't that what the boards are all about?
I've had PM's asking about details and chose not to respond because it was not what the post was about. It was the scenerio....not the deal that really bothered me the most.
Bob Green bgreen@parkavenumis.com 800-992-9881 Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
I've had PM's asking about details and chose not to respond because it was not what the post was about. It was the scenerio....not the deal that really bothered me the most.
Well we have heard from Dave.I think since you were the one that brought this to the board I personally believe you need to close it.
I personally believe that the customer was taken advantage of and is owed some money.
Wow this is a long one and I just finished reading it. I buy and sell stuff all the time. Ethics is somewhat hard to define when 3 or 4 people are involved in the same deal. I dont do consignments. Too much trouble, everybody gets mad if something goes a little wrong. This deal was a perfect consignment screw up. Cover you azz, blame someone else, buy it cheaper, cut out the middle man. Who screwed up? Who's ethics slipped? Everything that happened in this deal has happened to me at one time or another. My lessons learned were: 1. If you cant pay for it right now, dont buy it. 2. Keep your mouth shut. What you paid for something or where you got it is irrelavent to selling it. 3. Nothing is a done deal until money changes hands, I dont care what papers somebody signs. 3a. If you dont pay me now, I might sell it to someone else before you get back. 4. If I dont pay you I understand that you might sell it before I get back. 5. Do your best to do the right thing, even if the other guy doesnt. 6. Dont expect the other guy to read your mind. He cant. Tell him your terms and stick to them. 7. No matter how hard you try someone will find fault with you at some time in your business career.
I think most of us were a little quick to judge from the beginning of this thread. I was trying to see all three sides, but must admit I thought parkave was lax on his consignment agreement, that the other two parties were cheap characters attempting to shave a few bucks on a deal, and that the final buyer was dishonest for backing out of a signed deal. I have seen all this time and again in the last 25 years of business. Now it seems that facts were probably distorted from the beginning and it would seem appropriate for Parkave to return for a followup to the buyers rebuttal.
<< <i>Wow this is a long one and I just finished reading it. I buy and sell stuff all the time. Ethics is somewhat hard to define when 3 or 4 people are involved in the same deal. I dont do consignments. Too much trouble, everybody gets mad if something goes a little wrong. This deal was a perfect consignment screw up. Cover you azz, blame someone else, buy it cheaper, cut out the middle man. Who screwed up? Who's ethics slipped? Everything that happened in this deal has happened to me at one time or another. My lessons learned were: 1. If you cant pay for it right now, dont buy it. 2. Keep your mouth shut. What you paid for something or where you got it is irrelavent to selling it. 3. Nothing is a done deal until money changes hands, I dont care what papers somebody signs. 3a. If you dont pay me now, I might sell it to someone else before you get back. 4. If I dont pay you I understand that you might sell it before I get back. 5. Do your best to do the right thing, even if the other guy doesnt. 6. Dont expect the other guy to read your mind. He cant. Tell him your terms and stick to them. 7. No matter how hard you try someone will find fault with you at some time in your business career.
I think most of us were a little quick to judge from the beginning of this thread. I was trying to see all three sides, but must admit I thought parkave was lax on his consignment agreement, that the other two parties were cheap characters attempting to shave a few bucks on a deal, and that the final buyer was dishonest for backing out of a signed deal. I have seen all this time and again in the last 25 years of business. Now it seems that facts were probably distorted from the beginning and it would seem appropriate for Parkave to return for a followup to the buyers rebuttal. >>
I concur.........You write so much better than I do.
<< <i>This actually happened to me at the ANA show. >>
And then using the exact amounts and stuff. Told the story your way making the buyer sound bad because your made you missed out on some money. The buyer got the last laugh.
<<I dont do consignments. Too much trouble, everybody gets mad if something goes a little wrong.>>
Presleyh makes a very good point.
While I've been on the buying end of many more deals than the selling end, the only deal that really sticks out in my mind as having gone bad was one where I let control get out from under me. The coin sold alright but I really po'd another dealer in the process. And it wasn't worth the money I made on the coin because I felt really bad about the whole thing.
I know this sounds crazy to some coin folk, but profit isn't everything.
First off I can see myself buying a $15.000 dollar coin................NOT
Second ..The whole deal smells.The way they treated the buyer showed no respect and or Honor. AND THEN Drag it all in here........Put the guy who just got shafted on the spot.Have people dogging him to the point that he feels compelled to have to explain ,what it seems to me to be ,A very painful deal.
AND he paid $15.500 For the privilage.(which is by the way,A couple thou more than he coulda gotten it for a few weeks prior)
<< <i>The purpose of the post was to get feedback on the ethics of those involved in the deal. I never named names and never planned to. I was just curious about how board members would feel if it were them.
From the number of posts it seems that we can all learn something here today. Isn't that what the boards are all about?
I've had PM's asking about details and chose not to respond because it was not what the post was about. It was the scenerio....not the deal that really bothered me the most. >>
Some board members knew who you were talking about even if you didn't name names.
Either David is a liar or you distorted the facts to make yourself look more like a victim. How should the board members feel that you purpously distorted the facts to gain sympathy?
I learned something today and that is you are not the type of dealer I would want to deal with.
At the risk of being attacked, as a newcomer to this forum, I have learned the following:
1) As the buyer, if there is a coin that I really want and am willing to pay the price but it is on ebay or something....and the cost is high, snipe or put in some kind of bid...don't wait...could cost a lot more later 2) As a seller, if I did have a customer that wanted something and wanted me to take it off the table (market), get a deposit. Signing something doesn't mean diddly. 3) As a buyer, something David said confused me.....something about asking the "owner/dealer" about the cost: "I then remembered Park Ave saying that they were going to lose $500, so I said is the extra $500 for that? Point blank, the dealer said I do not want to lie to you, so I cannot answer your question. " Sorry....but, it sounds like they want to keep some things a little too secret when it became messy anyway. I can understand dealers wanting their profits and not wanting to let the customer know everything (that is why dealers have their secret little codes on the flips and such, right? ). At this point, I am sure the dealer realized it was a mess and should have just said "yeah, there is a lot going on, I will sort it out...if you want the coin it is $15,500; so, do you want it or not"? And, not say it in a mean way. 4) As a seller, don't take a coin or consignment at the same show.....someone else asked, and I repeat....WHY do that? The original dealer tried to sell it for $2000 less but got no bids, then consigns it for $2000 more at the same show??? 5) $1000 profit seems like a nice chunk of change....dealer said his cost would be $15,500 and he wanted $16,500 after he disclosed his cost to the buyer? wow! I know there are profits to be made, and I know I worry about my $$$ more than a lot of people, but, $1000 just like that after disclosing that it was someone else's? I would have offered $200 above or something....I wonder how many people were after a coin that expensive (not expensive for some, I know) at that particular show?
Anyway, interesting thread to read, interesting insights to human psychology, and a very appreciated response by the buyer.....to me, the fact that he jumped right in to register in order to give his side, rather than just say "screw it" is very appreciated. Thanks!
<< <i>Actually, I think much of this thread was also about DorkKarl. If we assume that Park Ave represented the situation accurately, then I would still have an issue with DK's vigorous defense of that type of behavior. >>
hey evillageprowler, that's becuase your confusing "condoning" a certain behavior w/ "defending" it.
i defend someone's right to burn the American flag, but i would never, NEVER do so myself, & believe you me, i raise my kids to understand & respect what the flag symbolizes. but you better believe to that i explain to my kids that someone can defend somebody's RIGHT to action, while disagreeing w/ that action.
i do not purport to be of such high-esteem that i could bring judgement on the 3 people involved in that transaction. who else in this thread can say the same?
<< <i>Given the brief synopsis accepted as truth by dorkkarl, I am still prone to disagree with him. >>
coinlieutenant, that's ok. but for me, the issue from the beginning was that bob failed in his duty as a dealer to have the checks & balances in place that would prevent an embarrassing scenario like what happened. for me, ethics comes into play only after all the bases have been covered.
<< <i> Just curious. What are we supposed to learn from this thread? >>
that there are at least 2 sides to every story.
<< <i>The purpose of the post was to get feedback on the ethics of those involved in the deal .... I was just curious about how board members would feel if it were them. >>
parkave, that would be ok. but you didn't present the pertinent issues in a fair manner. the issues were slanted to filter out the fact that you failed to establish a solid consignment relationship with that "other" dealer. your momentary incompetence is what cost you this deal, not bad ethics on the customer's part.
Before there were 'Dealers' there were Collectors. The 'Business' is a result of the Customer....the Collector.
If the 'Business' shams the Customer, you get what you give.
To those 'Dealers' that take offense; you need to police yourselves, because we, the Collectors, are well aware of the number of ethical 'Dealers' in the 'Business'. Unfortunately we are still at the mercy of the scam artists. We would like to trust the 'Dealers', but that is a trust that is EARNED. Respect is given initially, but to re-inforce respect, it must be EARNED.
But let us relax. Forums such as this give us, the Collectors, much needed information to prevent us from being shammed, and leaving the HOBBY. And we thank you all.
There ought to be a code of conduct, a charter, for both Dealers and Collectors, defining our mutual interests and responsibilities. But there isn't one.
So we need you, the Dealer, to help us weed out the scammers. We love the Hobby, we want to stay. We will not be happy if we are subjected to being shammed, and that includes over pricing, over grading, fraud......etc.
If you profit by the Collector, that's okay. But if you are greedy, we, collectors and dealers alike, don't want you in the Hobby. Go to beanie babbies, or some such. Let us continue doing what we've done for centuries, collect.
I've always wondered if people do this in real estate. Using a realtor is a complete scam IMO, 6% of the value? please. It can take a homeowner 5-10 years to acquire 6% of the equity of their house, and the realtor gets it all for a few hours work?
5-10 years to acquire 6% equity? Get real- most new homes appreciate rapidly.
"Few hours work?" LOL
I work for months and spend thousands of dollars and hours trying to market and sell just 1 house. Open house every weekend, showing the house several times/week. Answering questions and phone calls about the house night and day for months. At the end of 60 to 120 days - I might make $1500 PROFIT after expenses.
You live in a dream world where everything should be free and no one workls for anything.
Scam? Not hardly. It's the second oldest profession in the world - finding someone a home- or helping someone move out of their current one.
<<The purpose of the post was to get feedback on the ethics of those involved in the deal. I never named names and never planned to. I was just curious about how board members would feel if it were them.
From the number of posts it seems that we can all learn something here today. Isn't that what the boards are all about?
I've had PM's asking about details and chose not to respond because it was not what the post was about. It was the scenerio....not the deal that really bothered me the most.>>
Bob,
The problem I have with the above statement, and the basis of this thread for that matter, is that it seems you're mixing a hypothetical with actual facts. You disclosed sufficient information for others to identify the other parties involved but, if David's comments are to be believed, you did not supply us with all the facts.
So which is it....a hypothetical or is there more to the story than we were told? Hypotheticals are fine. True stories are fine when all the facts as you know them are disclosed. Something in between makes no one look good.
Those were the facts. Nothing ommitted. David's version does differ from mine, that fairly obvious. I still have a signed invoice and a memo return invoice in my files. The reason that the parties were figured out remains a mystery to me as I didnt divulge them to anyone on this forum.
I never heard anything about I'm thinking about it from the buyer. We shook hands and I congratulated him on a nice purchase. In fact, a retail client of mine was behind my table and saw the whole deal go down exactly as I stated.
Bob Green bgreen@parkavenumis.com 800-992-9881 Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
At first I wondered who spilled the beans, but then it became obvious that the buyer recognized the original dealer from Ebay.
Really puts you guys in a bind when you don't know that the seller is the same guy, but he knows the coin and the dealer are the same.
I think the guy was pretty darn nice to buy the coin period. In my terms, if I saw something fizzle out with 0 bids at $135, and then the same guy wanted $155 later. Your actions would be sufficient encouragment to go elsewhere.
<< <i>if I saw something fizzle out with 0 bids at $135, and then the same guy wanted $155 later. Your actions would be sufficient encouragment to go elsewhere. >>
The fact that something didn't sell at a certain price on eBay is not really an indication of it's market value. It's just an indication that the right bidder or bidders did not see the listing.
As I stated in an earlier post, the only sour deal of my entire life was one where I let someone take a coin 'on the arm'. Maybe there's a good lesson for all of us in this story.
<< <i>Bob: I can not comment on why your ex-employee (dealer) did not share the profit on the coin with you in some manner or another. I guess that is something you will discuss with him in the future.
But, I wouldn't be so hard on the collector. He is an honest and reputable person, who many of the top dealers on this board deal with on a daily basis, problem-free, and know to be a class act.
I think the confusion for the collector was that he saw the coin in question go unsold without a bid on ebay for a few thousand dollars less a week or so before the show. He even asked me (and I think one other dealer) if I could track it down around the price it did not sell on ebay (which I would have been happy to do normally), but, I simply got busy at the show and did not pursue the coin in any manner. And, I am glad I didn't at this point
But, in the case of the collector, I do believe it was simply a matter of not appreciating the "formalities". And many a collector on this board has run into the same problem from time to time I suspect.
Wondercoin >>
Wondercoin's post, above, is the first indication of the collector's identity. That is where the "beans" began to be spilled. Though, I don't believe that was a bad thing. In fact, I'm really glad Wondercoin recognized the situation and asked the buyer to join the Forum and tell his side of the story.
<< <i>(Why was it you felt compelled to SIGN a receipt to hold the coin until the following day?)
Simply put, he asked me to do so and I did. I saw no reason not too.
Not everyone is an expert in all of the workings of the coin business.
For those curious as to the coin in question, it is listed in my Seated Quarter Registry. >>
Wondercoin describes the collector as,
<< <i>an honest collector who spends well into 6 figures on coins each year (spread out among many dealers). >>
Well, we're not talking about some newbie on Ebay buying $15 DCAM Kennedy Halves. We're speaking of a collector that spends over $100,00 each year on coins. I find it a little hard to believe that someone signing an invoice didn't understand the implications. However, I also understand that everyone, including everyone on these boards, have had buyer's remorse at least one time in their life. So, I can certainly understand his wishing to back out (nice words) of the deal. However, if he saw something from Bob that would lead him to the dealer consigning the coin and that led him to back out of the deal, then that changes things. If he used that information to track down the consigning dealer, play dumb about the coin, share what he collected in an effort to have the memo recalled and the coin returned, so that he could negotiate a lower price, then that is a little smelly.
Ultimately, I blame the consigning dealer. To commit to sell the coin for $13,500, with no Ebay fees, after the auction ended and then weasel out of the deal saying another dealer had offered $15,000, that is slimey.
Registryset- Next time you realize you won't be at a computer to bid $13,500 on a coin for which you realize you would be willing to pay $15,500 or $16,500, then go ahead and bid the $13,500, before you leave for the business meeting!! After you are done with your meeting, you can come back and see if you won the coin for $13,500. If so, great! If not, at least you gave it an effort. Better to try and fail, than to never try.
I guess the fact that I have a signed invoice is meaningless under the circumstances. I just wonder how many people who are "just thinking about making a purchase" sign off on a deal and shake hands. Now I might not be the sharpest tool in the shed but I know when I sign my signature along the dotted line it is my understanding I have agreed to a deal IMHO
Bob Green bgreen@parkavenumis.com 800-992-9881 Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
I don't know any of the parties, i would probably do business with any of them, they seem to be good people,i wasn't there and there are 2 different stories. But like someone said, why would you sign a reciept to think about buying it, and as a seller why would you write a reciept, take the coin off your table if someone was just thinkin about it? Especially a $16,500 coin. I guess i still have a lot to learn about the way coins are bought and sold nowadays, it used to wasn't like that....jmo
pontiacinf. I have one of the mint signs. It's exactly like yours and is gold. i don't know how old or original it is. Do you have any information on it?
I promise, I'm only going to chime in once. I have followed this thread for two days now and really feel that the biggest offense was committed by the first dealer. The buyer contacted him after the ebay auction had closed and made a legitimate offer for the coin. I'm a surgeon, not a lawyer, but I believe that the original dealer had a contractual obligation to sell the coin to David at $13,500. I think of it as similar to locking in an interest rate. Both parties are obligated regardless of future economic conditions. It just so happens that our society's laws are designed to protect the buyer and he/she has the right of return in most retail situations. Therefore, although it may not seem right, David did have the right to say the deal wasn't right for him with Park Ave. However, the first dealer did not have the right to withdraw an accepted offer to David. Again, these principles are in place to protect the consumer. What if I suddenly decide I want to pay much more for a lot that I lost in a Heritage auction. Will they pull the lot from the winner and give it to me if I contact them and say I'll pay an extra $1000? How is that so different than what happened to David? Imagine the state of affairs if I could go through an auction and decide which lots I would pay more than the hammer price after the auction had closed. I'm sure that the auction houses would love to make more money, but that is just not going to happen. I would have to say that David has handled this remarkably well.
Comments
Strange that you would say buckshot, vice, say a deer slug or even a nice fifty caliber round.
Do you prefer buckshot or was it just the first ammunition type that came to mind?
Just wondering, in case we ever plan an official "shoot the dealer in the ass" party.
You'll be contacted if you should attend....
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
I don't know any of the parties involved, and am not addressing them in particular.
However, it would seem that the only player in the scenario with the REAL facts, was the owner/dealer1, who ultimately sold the coin to O'Brien. I think it is certainly plausable that the original dealer/owner was playing both sides . . . of the coin!
I also find it very interesting WHO ALL in this thread has now become the self-appointed "truth-seekers." It seems to me I got beaten up pretty badly a couple of months ago for trying to get to the bottom of a story also.
So, I'm going to sit in my glass house while others lob rocks, and just wait to hear Bob's side of the story, which just might be compatible with O'Brien's version.
Wow this statement really got me going....my wife is a broker spending years in the business.....believe no broker makes 6% for a few hours work....as bad as my hours are being a coin dealer hers are twice as bad....and that 6% is usually split 4 ways between selling agent, selling broker office, buyer agent, and buyer agent office.....my wife works 24/7 with customers calling day and night and I mean night.....driving here there and everywhere.....and for every 10 customers maybe 1 does buy (and she is one of the top brokers)....so please dont use real estate as an example!
After reading all these posts in total astonishment..........not even any pics about these coins.......I think I will go back to mourning. But first........I have to go puke.
The REAL problem here is the other dealer. I agree with Braddick's original post. The other dealer has an ETHICAL duty to give Park Ave. a cut in the deal since Park Ave. FOUND the buyer. So I guess I agree partly with dorkkarl in this.
jom
As far as I am concerned, both are to blame., it is a contractual agreement. I agree with GSAGUY 100%, Bob got stiffed big time!!!! I have a feeling those guys will not have a good reputation in the hobby for long.
<< <i>He agreed to buy the coin for $16,500 after I shared my cost of $15,500 with him. He was walking the show with his daughter and had not brought his check book so I invoiced the coin to him and he signed the invoice and we shook hands. >>
I still can't get past this SIGNED invoice. Anybody here ever have to sign an invoice to place a coin on hold for 12 hours?
<< <i>Why would a dealer who is attending the same show have another dealer sell his coin with potental to lose 7 % profit on such a large sum of money? Sounds to like Bob (park avenue) has some explaining to do based on what the buyer said. >>
Maybe because just a couple of weeks prior to the show, the first dealer was trying to sell the coin on Ebay for just $13,500. It's in a couple of posts.
That's terrible, and unethical to boot!
Wheat's Walkers:
Here is my suggestion.
1. Buyer: Next time bring your checkbook.
2. Seller: No more invoices.
Simply put, he asked me to do so and I did. I saw no reason not too.
Not everyone is an expert in all of the workings of the coin business.
For those curious as to the coin in question, it is listed in my Seated Quarter Registry.
<< <i>(Why was it you felt compelled to SIGN a receipt to hold the coin until the following day?)
Simply put, he asked me to do so and I did. I saw no reason not too.
Not everyone is an expert in all of the workings of the coin business.
For those curious as to the coin in question, it is listed in my Seated Quarter Registry. >>
I can see that an Honest man would have No problem doing so either.
I still think you were screwed.
Some on these boards will Nit Pick to take attention away from the real issue.
Where Is This Parkave Person Who had no problem typing away earlier.
All of a sudden he has vanished.
<< <i>Wouldn't it be nice if the collector came here and provided his own defense, instead of hiding behind someone's skirt?
heh, hey d-pot you talking about yourself and your kettle with that blurb are you not?
and talkin about skankyness and the like ? you spent a lot of time in front of the mirror today didnt you?
skirts?
hiding?
chickensh*t?
yeah that was YOU refering to YOURself wasnt it?
From the number of posts it seems that we can all learn something here today. Isn't that what the boards are all about?
I've had PM's asking about details and chose not to respond because it was not what the post was about. It was the scenerio....not the deal that really bothered me the most.
bgreen@parkavenumis.com
800-992-9881
Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
Well we have heard from Dave.I think since you were the one that brought this to the board I personally believe you need to close it.
I personally believe that the customer was taken advantage of and is owed some money.
1. If you cant pay for it right now, dont buy it.
2. Keep your mouth shut. What you paid for something or where you got it is irrelavent to selling it.
3. Nothing is a done deal until money changes hands, I dont care what papers somebody signs.
3a. If you dont pay me now, I might sell it to someone else before you get back.
4. If I dont pay you I understand that you might sell it before I get back.
5. Do your best to do the right thing, even if the other guy doesnt.
6. Dont expect the other guy to read your mind. He cant. Tell him your terms and stick to them.
7. No matter how hard you try someone will find fault with you at some time in your business career.
I think most of us were a little quick to judge from the beginning of this thread. I was trying to see all three sides, but must admit I thought parkave was lax on his consignment agreement, that the other two parties were cheap characters attempting to shave a few bucks on a deal, and that the final buyer was dishonest for backing out of a signed deal.
I have seen all this time and again in the last 25 years of business.
Now it seems that facts were probably distorted from the beginning and it would seem appropriate for Parkave to return for a followup to the buyers rebuttal.
<< <i>Wow this is a long one and I just finished reading it. I buy and sell stuff all the time. Ethics is somewhat hard to define when 3 or 4 people are involved in the same deal. I dont do consignments. Too much trouble, everybody gets mad if something goes a little wrong. This deal was a perfect consignment screw up. Cover you azz, blame someone else, buy it cheaper, cut out the middle man. Who screwed up? Who's ethics slipped? Everything that happened in this deal has happened to me at one time or another. My lessons learned were:
1. If you cant pay for it right now, dont buy it.
2. Keep your mouth shut. What you paid for something or where you got it is irrelavent to selling it.
3. Nothing is a done deal until money changes hands, I dont care what papers somebody signs.
3a. If you dont pay me now, I might sell it to someone else before you get back.
4. If I dont pay you I understand that you might sell it before I get back.
5. Do your best to do the right thing, even if the other guy doesnt.
6. Dont expect the other guy to read your mind. He cant. Tell him your terms and stick to them.
7. No matter how hard you try someone will find fault with you at some time in your business career.
I think most of us were a little quick to judge from the beginning of this thread. I was trying to see all three sides, but must admit I thought parkave was lax on his consignment agreement, that the other two parties were cheap characters attempting to shave a few bucks on a deal, and that the final buyer was dishonest for backing out of a signed deal.
I have seen all this time and again in the last 25 years of business.
Now it seems that facts were probably distorted from the beginning and it would seem appropriate for Parkave to return for a followup to the buyers rebuttal. >>
I concur.........You write so much better than I do.
<< <i>This actually happened to me at the ANA show. >>
And then using the exact amounts and stuff. Told the story your way making the buyer sound bad because your made you missed out on some money. The buyer got the last laugh.
I agree with gsaguy. There are definitely some blanks that need to be filled in here.
Presleyh makes a very good point.
While I've been on the buying end of many more deals than the selling end, the only deal that really sticks out in my mind as having gone bad was one where I let control get out from under me. The coin sold alright but I really po'd another dealer in the process. And it wasn't worth the money I made on the coin because I felt really bad about the whole thing.
I know this sounds crazy to some coin folk, but profit isn't everything.
GSAGUY
Second ..The whole deal smells.The way they treated the buyer showed no respect and or Honor.
AND THEN Drag it all in here........Put the guy who just got shafted on the spot.Have people dogging him to the point that he feels compelled to have to explain ,what it seems to me to be ,A very painful deal.
AND he paid $15.500 For the privilage.(which is by the way,A couple thou more than he coulda gotten it for a few weeks prior)
I don't Get it.
Who do I call to hand over my money?????
<< <i>The purpose of the post was to get feedback on the ethics of those involved in the deal. I never named names and never planned to. I was just curious about how board members would feel if it were them.
From the number of posts it seems that we can all learn something here today. Isn't that what the boards are all about?
I've had PM's asking about details and chose not to respond because it was not what the post was about. It was the scenerio....not the deal that really bothered me the most. >>
Some board members knew who you were talking about even if you didn't name names.
Either David is a liar or you distorted the facts to make yourself look more like a victim. How should the board members feel that you purpously distorted the facts to gain sympathy?
I learned something today and that is you are not the type of dealer I would want to deal with.
1) As the buyer, if there is a coin that I really want and am willing to pay the price but it is on ebay or something....and the cost is high, snipe or put in some kind of bid...don't wait...could cost a lot more later
2) As a seller, if I did have a customer that wanted something and wanted me to take it off the table (market), get a deposit. Signing something doesn't mean diddly.
3) As a buyer, something David said confused me.....something about asking the "owner/dealer" about the cost:
"I then remembered Park Ave saying that they were going to lose $500, so I said is the extra $500 for that? Point blank, the dealer said I do not want to lie to you, so I cannot answer your question. "
Sorry....but, it sounds like they want to keep some things a little too secret when it became messy anyway. I can understand dealers wanting their profits and not wanting to let the customer know everything (that is why dealers have their secret little codes on the flips and such, right?
4) As a seller, don't take a coin or consignment at the same show.....someone else asked, and I repeat....WHY do that? The original dealer tried to sell it for $2000 less but got no bids, then consigns it for $2000 more at the same show???
5) $1000 profit seems like a nice chunk of change....dealer said his cost would be $15,500 and he wanted $16,500 after he disclosed his cost to the buyer? wow! I know there are profits to be made, and I know I worry about my $$$ more than a lot of people, but, $1000 just like that after disclosing that it was someone else's? I would have offered $200 above or something....I wonder how many people were after a coin that expensive (not expensive for some, I know) at that particular show?
Anyway, interesting thread to read, interesting insights to human psychology, and a very appreciated response by the buyer.....to me, the fact that he jumped right in to register in order to give his side, rather than just say "screw it" is very appreciated. Thanks!
Ron
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Your recent post gives very little explanation as to what happened. Can you please tell us your side?
<< <i>Actually, I think much of this thread was also about DorkKarl. If we assume that Park Ave represented the situation accurately, then I would still have an issue with DK's vigorous defense of that type of behavior. >>
hey evillageprowler, that's becuase your confusing "condoning" a certain behavior w/ "defending" it.
i defend someone's right to burn the American flag, but i would never, NEVER do so myself, & believe you me, i raise my kids to understand & respect what the flag symbolizes. but you better believe to that i explain to my kids that someone can defend somebody's RIGHT to action, while disagreeing w/ that action.
i do not purport to be of such high-esteem that i could bring judgement on the 3 people involved in that transaction. who else in this thread can say the same?
<< <i>Given the brief synopsis accepted as truth by dorkkarl, I am still prone to disagree with him. >>
coinlieutenant, that's ok. but for me, the issue from the beginning was that bob failed in his duty as a dealer to have the checks & balances in place that would prevent an embarrassing scenario like what happened. for me, ethics comes into play only after all the bases have been covered.
<< <i> Just curious. What are we supposed to learn from this thread? >>
that there are at least 2 sides to every story.
<< <i>The purpose of the post was to get feedback on the ethics of those involved in the deal .... I was just curious about how board members would feel if it were them. >>
parkave, that would be ok. but you didn't present the pertinent issues in a fair manner. the issues were slanted to filter out the fact that you failed to establish a solid consignment relationship with that "other" dealer. your momentary incompetence is what cost you this deal, not bad ethics on the customer's part.
K S
<< Just curious. What are we supposed to learn from this thread? >>
that there are at least 2 sides to every story.
More correctly stated, the number of sides to a story always equals the number of people involved.
Before there were 'Dealers' there were Collectors. The 'Business' is a result of the Customer....the Collector.
If the 'Business' shams the Customer, you get what you give.
To those 'Dealers' that take offense; you need to police yourselves, because we, the Collectors, are well aware of the number of ethical 'Dealers' in the 'Business'. Unfortunately we are still at the mercy of the scam artists. We would like to trust the 'Dealers', but that is a trust that is EARNED. Respect is given initially, but to re-inforce respect, it must be EARNED.
But let us relax. Forums such as this give us, the Collectors, much needed information to prevent us from being shammed, and leaving the HOBBY. And we thank you all.
There ought to be a code of conduct, a charter, for both Dealers and Collectors, defining our mutual interests and responsibilities. But there isn't one.
So we need you, the Dealer, to help us weed out the scammers. We love the Hobby, we want to stay. We will not be happy if we are subjected to being shammed, and that includes over pricing, over grading, fraud......etc.
If you profit by the Collector, that's okay. But if you are greedy, we, collectors and dealers alike, don't want you in the Hobby. Go to beanie babbies, or some such. Let us continue doing what we've done for centuries, collect.
Thank you,
A Coin Collector
5-10 years to acquire 6% equity? Get real- most new homes appreciate rapidly.
"Few hours work?" LOL
I work for months and spend thousands of dollars and hours trying to market and sell just 1 house. Open house every weekend, showing the house several times/week. Answering questions and phone calls about the house night and day for months. At the end of 60 to 120 days - I might make $1500 PROFIT after expenses.
You live in a dream world where everything should be free and no one workls for anything.
Scam? Not hardly. It's the second oldest profession in the world - finding someone a home- or helping someone move out of their current one.
p.s. - aha! my 500th post !
My Auctions
From the number of posts it seems that we can all learn something here today. Isn't that what the boards are all about?
I've had PM's asking about details and chose not to respond because it was not what the post was about. It was the scenerio....not the deal that really bothered me the most.>>
Bob,
The problem I have with the above statement, and the basis of this thread for that matter, is that it seems you're mixing a hypothetical with actual facts. You disclosed sufficient information for others to identify the other parties involved but, if David's comments are to be believed, you did not supply us with all the facts.
So which is it....a hypothetical or is there more to the story than we were told? Hypotheticals are fine. True stories are fine when all the facts as you know them are disclosed. Something in between makes no one look good.
GSAGUY
Those were the facts. Nothing ommitted. David's version does differ from mine, that fairly obvious. I still have a signed invoice and a memo return invoice in my files. The reason that the parties were figured out remains a mystery to me as I didnt divulge them to anyone on this forum.
I never heard anything about I'm thinking about it from the buyer. We shook hands and I congratulated him on a nice purchase. In fact, a retail client of mine was behind my table and saw the whole deal go down exactly as I stated.
bgreen@parkavenumis.com
800-992-9881
Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
Really puts you guys in a bind when you don't know that the seller is the same guy, but he knows the coin and the dealer are the same.
I think the guy was pretty darn nice to buy the coin period. In my terms, if I saw something fizzle out with 0 bids at $135, and then the same guy wanted $155 later. Your actions would be sufficient encouragment to go elsewhere.
<< <i>if I saw something fizzle out with 0 bids at $135, and then the same guy wanted $155 later. Your actions would be sufficient encouragment to go elsewhere. >>
The fact that something didn't sell at a certain price on eBay is not really an indication of it's market value. It's just an indication that the right bidder or bidders did not see the listing.
Russ, NCNE
As I stated in an earlier post, the only sour deal of my entire life was one where I let someone take a coin 'on the arm'. Maybe there's a good lesson for all of us in this story.
Thanks,
GSAGUY
<< <i>Maybe there's a good lesson for all of us in this story. >>
Yes, which dealers to avoid. Anyone get the name of the other guy?
I take no sides but find this a bit strange. Only two here know the whole deal.
Give each other a call and work it out. I hate to see folks burn bridges.
That's the easy way out of a mess but not always the best way.
Just my old fashion opinion.
<< <i>Bob: I can not comment on why your ex-employee (dealer) did not share the profit on the coin with you in some manner or another. I guess that is something you will discuss with him in the future.
But, I wouldn't be so hard on the collector. He is an honest and reputable person, who many of the top dealers on this board deal with on a daily basis, problem-free, and know to be a class act.
I think the confusion for the collector was that he saw the coin in question go unsold without a bid on ebay for a few thousand dollars less a week or so before the show. He even asked me (and I think one other dealer) if I could track it down around the price it did not sell on ebay (which I would have been happy to do normally), but, I simply got busy at the show and did not pursue the coin in any manner. And, I am glad I didn't at this point
But, in the case of the collector, I do believe it was simply a matter of not appreciating the "formalities". And many a collector on this board has run into the same problem from time to time I suspect.
Wondercoin >>
Wondercoin's post, above, is the first indication of the collector's identity. That is where the "beans" began to be spilled. Though, I don't believe that was a bad thing. In fact, I'm really glad Wondercoin recognized the situation and asked the buyer to join the Forum and tell his side of the story.
<< <i>(Why was it you felt compelled to SIGN a receipt to hold the coin until the following day?)
Simply put, he asked me to do so and I did. I saw no reason not too.
Not everyone is an expert in all of the workings of the coin business.
For those curious as to the coin in question, it is listed in my Seated Quarter Registry. >>
Wondercoin describes the collector as,
<< <i>an honest collector who spends well into 6 figures on coins each year (spread out among many dealers). >>
Well, we're not talking about some newbie on Ebay buying $15 DCAM Kennedy Halves. We're speaking of a collector that spends over $100,00 each year on coins. I find it a little hard to believe that someone signing an invoice didn't understand the implications. However, I also understand that everyone, including everyone on these boards, have had buyer's remorse at least one time in their life. So, I can certainly understand his wishing to back out (nice words) of the deal. However, if he saw something from Bob that would lead him to the dealer consigning the coin and that led him to back out of the deal, then that changes things. If he used that information to track down the consigning dealer, play dumb about the coin, share what he collected in an effort to have the memo recalled and the coin returned, so that he could negotiate a lower price, then that is a little smelly.
Ultimately, I blame the consigning dealer. To commit to sell the coin for $13,500, with no Ebay fees, after the auction ended and then weasel out of the deal saying another dealer had offered $15,000, that is slimey.
Registryset- Next time you realize you won't be at a computer to bid $13,500 on a coin for which you realize you would be willing to pay $15,500 or $16,500, then go ahead and bid the $13,500, before you leave for the business meeting!! After you are done with your meeting, you can come back and see if you won the coin for $13,500. If so, great! If not, at least you gave it an effort. Better to try and fail, than to never try.
I guess the fact that I have a signed invoice is meaningless under the circumstances. I just wonder how many people who are "just thinking about making a purchase" sign off on a deal and shake hands. Now I might not be the sharpest tool in the shed but I know when I sign my signature along the dotted line it is my understanding I have agreed to a deal IMHO
bgreen@parkavenumis.com
800-992-9881
Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
BC
My 1866 Philly Mint Set