I have noticed most of the dealers quit posting to this thread way back.
I don't blame you a bit. Future business is important but so is the truth.
If I came to your booth and signed an invoice for 15K, you can bet we have a deal. What else could this mean? I'm just thinking about it? Get real. If I were to do this to most dealers here I would get hung out to dry.
Just how many dealers here get a signed invoice on an I'll think about it sale?
I don't know Bob from Adam but I sure as L know he got a rotten deal here.
I just took a break to relax - & spent too much time, it seems, reading this thread - Here's a couple of observations: Whether there was or wasn't a "contract" to sell that coin by ParkAvenue to David could easily be determined if each hired their own lawyer & let a Judge or Jury decide the facts based on ALL of the testimony (you know under oath - the truth, whole truth etc). Would probably cost more than the coin and someone would be determined to be "right" (the winner) and the other "wrong" (the looser). In the process, we might even find out the 3rd side of the story (which certainly hasn't been stated by the original dealer/ebay consigner/final seller to the final buyer). I can safely say that when the dust settled NO one would be happy (except their respective lawyers). But that really misses the issue IMO. (From this point on this reply does NOT reference the parties involved in the transaction referenced in the original post - but the more fundamental concept of coin dealers selling coins to coin collectors.)
Shouldn't everyone in this type of transaction looked at the LONG term consequences of what was going on?
1. If a collector, novice or experienced looks at a coin, likes it and makes a commitment to buy the coin (perceived by the dealer as a "done deal" and later (not months later, but within a short time) comes back and says - I don't want to buy that coin - Shouldn't the dealer say something like: I thought we had made a deal, but if you're not happy with this coin, then I'll gladly take it back - I'd rather have a happy customer than an unhappy customer who won't do business with me. There are many variations to this - consignment coins, partnered coins, customer's coins that might have an effect on this scenario, but basically most dealers that I have dealt with will, as a courtesy, do just that.
2. If a collector does this often, agrees to buy a coin and then changes his mind, he'll find that dealers won't want to sell him coins - or he or she will be quoted a higher "firm" price and told if he wants the coin he'll have to pay for it and a "firm" return (or non-return policy) will be insisted upon. In short - if a collector "abuses" this courtesy of being allowed to agree to buy a coin and then decides to return it (or cancel the deal), he will be treated accordingly by the dealer fraternity. Believe it or not - it’s a relatively small world and a persistent practice of unfair or unreasonable dealing, will not go un-noticed.
3. In any conversation, each party hears the part that THEY want to hear; and in any transaction - (particularly verbal transactions) there will always be several different versions of what occurred & what was (or was not) agreed upon (particularly 5 figure or greater deals). Each person, will be perfectly capable of rationalization to convince you that his version of the events is what really happened. There are usually several ways to "slant" an issue and the more money is involved, the greater the level of "righteousness indignation".
My thoughts are: leave it at the door (bourse floor): A bad experience should be used to create a learning base for not getting into that situation a second time or making that mistake twice. For collectors: Who would you want to buy your next coin from? The dealer who says "Sorry pal - either take this coin & pay for it or I'm going to...." Or the dealer who says, "Hey this is going to cause me a little problem, but we'll I want you to be a happy customer & make it up next time we do business." For Dealers: How many times has a hesitant or unsure collector "reneged" on a deal & later come back & done business with you again. Burning bridges is never a good idea unless you're never going back.
The real lesson in this thread is both Sellers and Buyers ought to be a little more tolerant & a little more flexible in the dealings with each other (and perhaps a little more forthright with each other). Both ought to look at each transaction as the 1ST of MANY future transactions.
If this hobby of coin collecting has come down to "survival of the fittest" (which, to be precise is: "kill or be killed") then we've lost all prospective of the enjoyment of coin collecting. - Too much time has been spent in this thread bashing one side or the other - and (IMO) ranting about how its ok to screw someone out of a deal or their "profit" because they could go round the back door & get it cheaper. I was amazed to read how several people on these boards resented a real estate agent receiving a commission for selling a house. Yup, once every 10,000 times a house sells in the 1st hour to the 1st person w/no contingencies & they've got cash or a pre-approved mortgage. But they other 9,999 listings usually don't quite go so smoothly & sometime these people work hours and hours for no pay at all. (I'm not a real estate agent) Ranting about how a real estate agent doesn't deserve a fair compensation for working, as someone eloquently put it, "24/7" to help someone buy or sell a house seems a bit short-sighted IMHO.
I think the successful dealer and the successful collector both make a concerted effort to make every deal the 1st of many - and then ones that go for the one time killing are the real losers.
Well - I hope the next 10 page thread I read is about a fabulous coin that the dealer made a lot of money on and the collector thought he ripped! If I knew how to start a post - I'd title it: "What's the best coin you ever paid too much for?"
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
<< <i>I guess the fact that I have a signed invoice is meaningless under the circumstances >>
that is correct. MEANINGLESS. after all, do you have a return policy? you do? so david could have bought the coin, returned it 30 seconds later then gone over to the other dealer & consummated another deal, right? so what's your point?
or, is it that you you don't allow returns of coins?
quite trying to weasel out of it parkave. you screwed up. period. you were trying to play both sides of the deck, ie. sell coins for profit, yet w/out having to commit to their cost by buying them outright. if your gonna play that game, the consignment game, play by the rules: get your consignment agreements in writing.
had you played by the rules, your client wouldn't be in this embarrassing situation.
<< <i>I just wonder how many people who are "just thinking about making a purchase" sign off on a deal and shake hands >>
interesting choice of words. weren't you "just thinking about making a purchase" of the consignor's coin? ie if you didn't sell it, you weren't planning on buying it, now were you. but if you did make the sale, then you would have bought it, right? so who's REALLY the party "just thinking about making a purchase" here?
<< <i>I guess the fact that I have a signed invoice is meaningless under the circumstances >>
that is correct. MEANINGLESS. after all, do you have a return policy? you do? so david could have bought the coin, returned it 30 seconds later then gone over to the other dealer & consummated another deal, right? so what's your point?
or, is it that you you don't allow returns of coins?
quite trying to weasel out of it parkave. you screwed up. period. you were trying to play both sides of the deck, ie. sell coins for profit, yet w/out having to commit to their cost by buying them outright. if your gonna play that game, the consignment game, play by the rules: get your consignment agreements in writing.
had you played by the rules, your client wouldn't be in this embarrassing situation.
<< <i>I just wonder how many people who are "just thinking about making a purchase" sign off on a deal and shake hands >>
interesting choice of words. weren't you "just thinking about making a purchase" of the consignor's coin? ie if you didn't sell it, you weren't planning on buying it, now were you. but if you did make the sale, then you would have bought it, right? so who's REALLY the party "just thinking about making a purchase" here?
All well that ends well. I just got a call and the consignment dealer is compensating me with half of his profits. He also mentioned that the buyer wanted to buy another coin from him and he perfers not to sell it to him in light of the circumstances surrounding this deal. Basically the consignment dealer said he "played us both."
THE END
Bob Green bgreen@parkavenumis.com 800-992-9881 Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
I haven't followed this thread in detail but I like what the newmismatist wrote.
Doesn't sound like it's ended well at all if your not going to deal with the collector.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
<< <i>Basically the consignment dealer said he "played us both." >>
Bob, why should we believe "the consignment dealer"? While you and David have presented differing sides to the story, I have seen nothing, yet, to indicate, that the "consignment dealer" didn't screw David over, or, initially, try to screw you out of your commission!
<< <i>All well that ends well. I just got a call and the consignment dealer is compensating me with half of his profits. He also mentioned that the buyer wanted to buy another coin from him and he perfers not to sell it to him in light of the circumstances surrounding this deal. Basically the consignment dealer said he "played us both." >>
Sorry, I ain't buying it. I know little about coins, but I've been in business and on this earth a good while and I know what crap smells like. That end-game has a very putrid aroma.
Bob was finished a long time ago (i.e., no more "done deals" or harassing phone calls to people who've already asked him not to call them). Anyone take a look at his website lately. My god, does he ever value phone numbers. He pulled almost all his photos off his website so that you'll have to give him your photo number to get a photo. I'm sure his business is brisk.
For me it comes down to which statement accurately represents what happened:
ParkAve He agreed to buy the coin for $16,500 after I shared my cost of $15,500 with him. He was walking the show with his daughter and had not brought his check book so I invoiced the coin to him and he signed the invoice and we shook hands. I naturally told the owner of the coin that he could write it up as sold.
Registryset I said that is a lot considering I had a shot at it three weeks earlier at $13,500. So, I said I needed a day to think about it. He said do you want a coin, or do you want to think about it. I said I want a coin, but did not have check and still wanted to think about it. He said he would hold the coin if I would sign the receipt. I said yes and that I would return the next day.
If I'm a dealer and someone tells my they want to think about it or I'm a buyer and I want to think about it there is no agreement and no reason to sign an invoice. Doesn't make sense.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Basically the consignment dealer said he "played us both."
That's exactly what I thought. Dealer 1 was the only person who knew all of the facts.
David, by signing that invoice, it could have been an expensive lesson for you. Your cost in this is that Dealer 1 is not going to sell you any more coins. You got lucky. There is usually a higher cost associated with every lesson learned.
With that being said, I am sympathetic to your plight. Here's my first experience with signing an invoice.
Several years ago, I decided to get back into coins. I had done pretty well in business, and had the ability to spend a pretty good amount on coins -- but I was still a newbie at this level of coin collecting. I had a lot of lessons to learn. These people on the threads who wonder how a person can have $15K to spend on a coin and still be a newbie. Well, it's just a fact that it happens when people get back into coin collecting. What I do now collecting is so different than what I used to do, it is hard to compare them. I think you are probably in the same boat.
Anyway, a dealer sold me a group of coins for about $15k. I was still a little up in the air because I was just beginning to spend that kind of money on coins, so he said pay for half, take the coins, sign the invoice, and go home and finish making up your mind. This was the first time in my life that someone wanted me to "sign an invoice," but it seemed reasonble to me because I was taking the coins with me. Obviously this is a little different factual situation, but I still had no idea what "signing an invoice" could imply in the coin business. The invoice didn't say "coins can be returned within a certain time period." I was just taking the dealer at his word. I never returned the coins, because i wanted them and so I paid the other half of the invoice in a reasonable amount of time. I guess he could have whipped out the invoice and told me "we had a deal" and then tried to make me complete the purchase. I guess the lesson could have been a little expensive for me had things gone differently.
Point is: Don't let some of these people on the forum make you feel stupid. You are not stupid -- just inexperienced. I still have many lessons to be learned, and my future teachers may be a little more unscrupulous than the dealer in my example, or yours too for that matter. I hope that your future lessons are not painful and that you will continue to enjoy this great hobby.
Doug- I sure hope you are not refering to me when you say, "Don't let some of these people on the forum make you feel you are stupid." That certainly wasn't my intent. I did intend to point out that David is not some complete novice. Anyone spending over $100,000/year a couple or three years in a row is not exactly a novice. Whether he did or did not understand the implications of signing an invoice, I can't say. No one can. We weren't there.
However, I do know this. It is reasonable to assume that any adult with the financial ability to spend $100,000/year in coins would be wise enough, when asked to sign ANY piece of paper (including an invoice), what the implications will be, or to at least ask questions like the following. "Why would I need to sign an invoice? My signature wouldn't commit me to purchasing the coin, would it? You understand I don't intend to buy this coin, correct?" All of these questions would be prudent, prior to signing any invoice in any transaction. Wouldn't you agree? Any prudent, knowledgeable business person with the financial ability to spend over $100,000 per year on any hobby should understand a signature has some binding commitments attached. Just my opinion.
To keep this soap opera alive, it would be nice to have a post from the "consignment dealer". Does anyone know him/her or want to make up a new member name to play the part?
Wow, I can’t believe I read the whole thing ... guess I’m just an endurance freak when it comes to drama. Basically, Presleyh & Newmismatist have said pretty much everything I thought I would say. I do have a couple other comments.
I don’t think Registryset is losing out by not being “allowed” to purchase from the Owner/Dealer again. Assuming what I’ve read here is pretty much accurate (where it doesn't disagree outright), I think I’d be leery of dealing with the 1st Dealer. Let’s see, he agreed to sell it off-eBay at the low end of the offering range, but then reneged because he had a buyer at the BIN price. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t – but if he didn’t have one who subsequently backed out on him, then it sounds like he lied to Registryset. He then hauls the coin with him to a show where Dealer 2 seems to think he has better prospects to sell it, and then he offers to sell it directly, which would cut out Dealer 2. Last, he promises to cut Dealer 2 in after all (with his partner raising the price to cover it), but originally deals Dealer 2 out (until after this has brewed up in this forum and maybe word has gotten back to him). The Owner/Dealer seems to like to wheel and deal on the edge ... and three strikes is plenty “out” to me.
Secondly, I have a hard time understanding why Registryset bought the coin in any case. He was aware that it had gone through eBay several times garnering without gaining a bid … which suggests that anyone interested in it had had ample time to notice it and decide the opening bid was not for them. With no competition the last round either, a $13k+ bid could have been put in any time. After getting the seller to accept a minimum offer and then having him renege, that would probably be it for me with that seller. But then, he went for it at ever higher amounts at the show. In the end, he got it for much higher than the BIN on eBay. If a coin wasn’t worth BINing on eBay, I can’t see why he kept on agreeing (however tentatively) to ever higher prices off-eBay … and then still be unsure he wanted to nail it down and accept the max … and then go with a $500 jackup from the owner’s already agreed-upon price offered by his partner. I would have walked away long before.
Of course, if anybody wants to offer me a $2500+ dollar “fee” per coin to buy coins for them over and above what they know they can get it for, well, I’d be willing … then I could afford five-figure coins myself.
Address my statements here Bob, I can take it. Do you have the stones to say to me here what you just PM'd me? I think you've proven yourself an azz in private as well as publicly and I don't care how much business you've done. I suspect I'm a far better chemist than you are a coin dealer.
<< <i>Address my statements here Bob, I can take it. Do you have the stones to say to me here what you just PM'd me? I think you've proven yourself an azz in private as well as publicly and I don't care how much business you've done. I suspect I'm a far better chemist than you are a coin dealer. >>
Way to go bob. Seems Your Bullsh!t has run it's course.
Quite frankly I have seen enough of the consignment and ownership game to make me puketh by both dealers and collectors alike.
I even see enough of dealers buying consigned inventory from their consigner then jacking the price way up beyond the original consigned price, so ownership of inventory is not always the solution..
Quite frankly, I applaud the collector for having the balls and guts to do what he did to Bob. It showed his true colors. I despise such a collector for pulling that crap.
Let me tell you this, Bob; I would never, ever buy or ever buy or sell with a collector who pulled that stunt. Quiite frankly if collectors EVER expect dealers to take a higher road and play it more straight, then we need to put our money where our mouth is and NOT play that game.
Quite frankly, as a human being, if I was in the same situation as the collector, I would have walked away from the coin altogether. No coin is ever so important to have pitted the dealers against one another or to have denied you the chance to have sold the coin while at a very, very busy show. But you took a chance on the collector, and you paid for it.
I don't care if the collector screwed up by failing to snipe the coin originally. So, if the two dealers including you raised the price from $13,500 to $16,500 or whatever, I would have simply walked away. I have done so in the past and ended up far better off than the collector!
OT======It will be a little confusing seeing Mark Feld's icon being used by Freakycoinflake, untill you read the content of his posts. Is this NUmised revived ??
I have only been reading this forum for about 6 months now, and i gotta say, i've learned more with this thread i think than anyother.... And to think alot of E-BAY sellers are ridiculed on here the way they are!!!!! I think i'll stick to buying my coins from some of the people on here who still potrait morals and decency in their dealings...people like Russ who know someone needs a coin and works out a 90 day or even longer payment schedule so good honest hardworking people who enjoy this hobby can participate (and thats just one example i read about that comes to mind). I have come to the conclusion (rather slow, i know) that this hobby has lost alot of it's inocense in the past few years......That's a shame.....
I have come to the conclusion (rather slow, i know) that this hobby has lost alot of it's inocense in the past few years......That's a shame..... >>
I don't know about that. I think the coin biz, just like any other biz, has always had the good and the bad. Just have to work hard to find the good dealers.....then stick with em.
yea it just seems like it gets harder and harder to find the good ones that aren't out to screw who ever they can to get the last dollar they can. I visited a coin shop in Denver yesterday on the way home and was wanting to do a little trade and the dealer told me he would crack out my 1900 pcgs ms65 pl morgan, dip it send it in and see if it would come back as an ms66pl or dmpl before he would give me ms65 trade value..... Needless to say after my comment to him i am no longer welcome in his shop.....
how many levels of profit are built into this thing, and how could an owner extract it's true value is beyond me. Seems like an awful lot fo built in layers of "fuzzy and potential" profit means a higher and higher price paid by the collector. Dealer A has a profit to make, Dealer B has a profit to make, and who is to say Dealer A does or doesn't own it and may be flipping it for someone else, with a profit to make.
Collector might spend $16,500 for a coin that wouldn't bring $12,000 if he tried to sell it at a future time.
Why does the term "pyramid" come to mind?
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I just had a similiar thing happen to me on e-bay. I was high bidder on an expensive large cent and met the sellers reserve. A major large cent dealer contacted him and bought it through the back door. I found it on his web site.
Intriguing thread. I guess it was worth the half hour or more that it took to read.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
After being screwed out of the coin for $13,500 I would have run away from both these dealers. Finding a honest coin dealer who doesn't play games is akin to finding an honest auto mechanic. This is our hobby at its finest! Like Nic, Mike and others have said, it's all about your WORD...not the paper. If I quote a coin too low, too bad, it's sold. If someone else offers more, too bad, it's sold.
Does anyone know how to install a Dorkarl/Keets filter so threads like these can be made 20-30% shorter??
Second, I wouldn't sign anymore pieces of paper that may be legally binding if I were you. Not without my lawyer present
> Why would a dealer who is attending the same show have another dealer sell his coin with potental to lose 7 % profit on such a large sum of money? Yeah that does seem bizarre.
>hey evillageprowler, that's becuase your confusing "condoning" a certain behavior w/ "defending" it. You sound like you think that you're supporting his right to choose but not his bad choice. That's not the case. You are saying he has the right to go back on his word. We are saying that it's unethical (and thus he doesn't really have the right) to do so. I think you may be confusing extra information you have that we don't in this specific case with the broader issue we are all discussing.
> i do not purport to be of such high-esteem that i could bring judgement on the 3 people involved in that transaction. who else in this thread can say the same? That's because your ethics seem very situational and wishy-washy.
The moment the invoice was signed, it's a fixed price contract.
I signed a fixed price contract with a moving company once. Long story short, after the move and before the truck was unpacked the movers got tired after a long day and decided I had "too much stuff" and demanded more money before unloading the truck. When I refused, they left the scene (with all my stuff) and took the truck back to the company. After spending the night on the floor, the next morning I made a phone call to my attorney. He made one phone call......Needless to say, these jokers were back at my new house within 30 minutes and unloading. It cost me money and some stress, but it was necessary. When the attorney bill showed up, I happily paid the $100 he charged me.
I've gone on record as being against attorneys in the Jadecoin situation, but there is a time-and-a place for them. I'd say this is it.
I'd pay $100 (or a small fee) to an attorney and have he/she make 2 phone calls. I wouldn't be surprised if the issue is resolved in a few days. If not, make sure the message from your attorney is that you will never deal with them again.
It seems funny to me that registryset was apparently the only buyer for this coin anywhere, it was offered on e-bay for a week and no one even bid on it, then three or so dealers offer him the coin at shows. He was the only market for it and in a way ended up bidding against himself! No offfense registryset and welcome to the boards------------------BigE
Comments
I don't blame you a bit. Future business is important but so is the truth.
If I came to your booth and signed an invoice for 15K, you can bet we have a deal.
What else could this mean? I'm just thinking about it? Get real.
If I were to do this to most dealers here I would get hung out to dry.
Just how many dealers here get a signed invoice on an I'll think about it sale?
I don't know Bob from Adam but I sure as L know he got a rotten deal here.
Whether there was or wasn't a "contract" to sell that coin by ParkAvenue to David could easily be determined if each hired their own lawyer & let a Judge or Jury decide the facts based on ALL of the testimony (you know under oath - the truth, whole truth etc). Would probably cost more than the coin and someone would be determined to be "right" (the winner) and the other "wrong" (the looser). In the process, we might even find out the 3rd side of the story (which certainly hasn't been stated by the original dealer/ebay consigner/final seller to the final buyer). I can safely say that when the dust settled NO one would be happy (except their respective lawyers). But that really misses the issue IMO. (From this point on this reply does NOT reference the parties involved in the transaction referenced in the original post - but the more fundamental concept of coin dealers selling coins to coin collectors.)
Shouldn't everyone in this type of transaction looked at the LONG term consequences of what was going on?
1. If a collector, novice or experienced looks at a coin, likes it and makes a commitment to buy the coin (perceived by the dealer as a "done deal" and later (not months later, but within a short time) comes back and says - I don't want to buy that coin - Shouldn't the dealer say something like: I thought we had made a deal, but if you're not happy with this coin, then I'll gladly take it back - I'd rather have a happy customer than an unhappy customer who won't do business with me. There are many variations to this - consignment coins, partnered coins, customer's coins that might have an effect on this scenario, but basically most dealers that I have dealt with will, as a courtesy, do just that.
2. If a collector does this often, agrees to buy a coin and then changes his mind, he'll find that dealers won't want to sell him coins - or he or she will be quoted a higher "firm" price and told if he wants the coin he'll have to pay for it and a "firm" return (or non-return policy) will be insisted upon. In short - if a collector "abuses" this courtesy of being allowed to agree to buy a coin and then decides to return it (or cancel the deal), he will be treated accordingly by the dealer fraternity. Believe it or not - it’s a relatively small world and a persistent practice of unfair or unreasonable dealing, will not go un-noticed.
3. In any conversation, each party hears the part that THEY want to hear; and in any transaction - (particularly verbal transactions) there will always be several different versions of what occurred & what was (or was not) agreed upon (particularly 5 figure or greater deals). Each person, will be perfectly capable of rationalization to convince you that his version of the events is what really happened. There are usually several ways to "slant" an issue and the more money is involved, the greater the level of "righteousness indignation".
My thoughts are: leave it at the door (bourse floor): A bad experience should be used to create a learning base for not getting into that situation a second time or making that mistake twice. For collectors: Who would you want to buy your next coin from? The dealer who says "Sorry pal - either take this coin & pay for it or I'm going to...." Or the dealer who says, "Hey this is going to cause me a little problem, but we'll I want you to be a happy customer & make it up next time we do business." For Dealers: How many times has a hesitant or unsure collector "reneged" on a deal & later come back & done business with you again. Burning bridges is never a good idea unless you're never going back.
The real lesson in this thread is both Sellers and Buyers ought to be a little more tolerant & a little more flexible in the dealings with each other (and perhaps a little more forthright with each other). Both ought to look at each transaction as the 1ST of MANY future transactions.
If this hobby of coin collecting has come down to "survival of the fittest" (which, to be precise is: "kill or be killed") then we've lost all prospective of the enjoyment of coin collecting. - Too much time has been spent in this thread bashing one side or the other - and (IMO) ranting about how its ok to screw someone out of a deal or their "profit" because they could go round the back door & get it cheaper. I was amazed to read how several people on these boards resented a real estate agent receiving a commission for selling a house. Yup, once every 10,000 times a house sells in the 1st hour to the 1st person w/no contingencies & they've got cash or a pre-approved mortgage. But they other 9,999 listings usually don't quite go so smoothly & sometime these people work hours and hours for no pay at all. (I'm not a real estate agent) Ranting about how a real estate agent doesn't deserve a fair compensation for working, as someone eloquently put it, "24/7" to help someone buy or sell a house seems a bit short-sighted IMHO.
I think the successful dealer and the successful collector both make a concerted effort to make every deal the 1st of many - and then ones that go for the one time killing are the real losers.
Well - I hope the next 10 page thread I read is about a fabulous coin that the dealer made a lot of money on and the collector thought he ripped! If I knew how to start a post - I'd title it: "What's the best coin you ever paid too much for?"
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>I guess the fact that I have a signed invoice is meaningless under the circumstances >>
that is correct. MEANINGLESS. after all, do you have a return policy? you do? so david could have bought the coin, returned it 30 seconds later then gone over to the other dealer & consummated another deal, right? so what's your point?
or, is it that you you don't allow returns of coins?
quite trying to weasel out of it parkave. you screwed up. period. you were trying to play both sides of the deck, ie. sell coins for profit, yet w/out having to commit to their cost by buying them outright. if your gonna play that game, the consignment game, play by the rules: get your consignment agreements in writing.
had you played by the rules, your client wouldn't be in this embarrassing situation.
<< <i>I just wonder how many people who are "just thinking about making a purchase" sign off on a deal and shake hands >>
interesting choice of words. weren't you "just thinking about making a purchase" of the consignor's coin? ie if you didn't sell it, you weren't planning on buying it, now were you. but if you did make the sale, then you would have bought it, right? so who's REALLY the party "just thinking about making a purchase" here?
YOU are.
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>I guess the fact that I have a signed invoice is meaningless under the circumstances >>
that is correct. MEANINGLESS. after all, do you have a return policy? you do? so david could have bought the coin, returned it 30 seconds later then gone over to the other dealer & consummated another deal, right? so what's your point?
or, is it that you you don't allow returns of coins?
quite trying to weasel out of it parkave. you screwed up. period. you were trying to play both sides of the deck, ie. sell coins for profit, yet w/out having to commit to their cost by buying them outright. if your gonna play that game, the consignment game, play by the rules: get your consignment agreements in writing.
had you played by the rules, your client wouldn't be in this embarrassing situation.
<< <i>I just wonder how many people who are "just thinking about making a purchase" sign off on a deal and shake hands >>
interesting choice of words. weren't you "just thinking about making a purchase" of the consignor's coin? ie if you didn't sell it, you weren't planning on buying it, now were you. but if you did make the sale, then you would have bought it, right? so who's REALLY the party "just thinking about making a purchase" here?
YOU are.
K S >>
Exactly DK and well stated.
THE END
bgreen@parkavenumis.com
800-992-9881
Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
Doesn't sound like it's ended well at all if your not going to deal with the collector.
<< <i>Basically the consignment dealer said he "played us both." >>
Bob, why should we believe "the consignment dealer"? While you and David have presented differing sides to the story, I have seen nothing, yet, to indicate, that the "consignment dealer" didn't screw David over, or, initially, try to screw you out of your commission!
<< <i>All well that ends well .... the consignment dealer said he "played us both." >>
yeah ............ right.
K S
<< <i>All well that ends well. I just got a call and the consignment dealer is compensating me with half of his profits. He also mentioned that the buyer wanted to buy another coin from him and he perfers not to sell it to him in light of the circumstances surrounding this deal. Basically the consignment dealer said he "played us both." >>
Sorry, I ain't buying it. I know little about coins, but I've been in business and on this earth a good while and I know what crap smells like. That end-game has a very putrid aroma.
Russ, NCNE
ParkAve
He agreed to buy the coin for $16,500 after I shared my cost of $15,500 with him. He was walking the show with his daughter and had not brought his check book so I invoiced the coin to him and he signed the invoice and we shook hands. I naturally told the owner of the coin that he could write it up as sold.
Registryset
I said that is a lot considering I had a shot at it three weeks earlier at $13,500. So, I said I needed a day to think about it. He said do you want a coin, or do you want to think about it. I said I want a coin, but did not have check and still wanted to think about it. He said he would hold the coin if I would sign the receipt. I said yes and that I would return the next day.
If I'm a dealer and someone tells my they want to think about it or I'm a buyer and I want to think about it there is no agreement and no reason to sign an invoice. Doesn't make sense.
Basically the consignment dealer said he "played us both."
That's exactly what I thought. Dealer 1 was the only person who knew all of the facts.
David, by signing that invoice, it could have been an expensive lesson for you. Your cost in this is that Dealer 1 is not going to sell you any more coins. You got lucky. There is usually a higher cost associated with every lesson learned.
With that being said, I am sympathetic to your plight. Here's my first experience with signing an invoice.
Several years ago, I decided to get back into coins. I had done pretty well in business, and had the ability to spend a pretty good amount on coins -- but I was still a newbie at this level of coin collecting. I had a lot of lessons to learn. These people on the threads who wonder how a person can have $15K to spend on a coin and still be a newbie. Well, it's just a fact that it happens when people get back into coin collecting. What I do now collecting is so different than what I used to do, it is hard to compare them. I think you are probably in the same boat.
Anyway, a dealer sold me a group of coins for about $15k. I was still a little up in the air because I was just beginning to spend that kind of money on coins, so he said pay for half, take the coins, sign the invoice, and go home and finish making up your mind. This was the first time in my life that someone wanted me to "sign an invoice," but it seemed reasonble to me because I was taking the coins with me. Obviously this is a little different factual situation, but I still had no idea what "signing an invoice" could imply in the coin business. The invoice didn't say "coins can be returned within a certain time period." I was just taking the dealer at his word. I never returned the coins, because i wanted them and so I paid the other half of the invoice in a reasonable amount of time. I guess he could have whipped out the invoice and told me "we had a deal" and then tried to make me complete the purchase. I guess the lesson could have been a little expensive for me had things gone differently.
Point is: Don't let some of these people on the forum make you feel stupid. You are not stupid -- just inexperienced. I still have many lessons to be learned, and my future teachers may be a little more unscrupulous than the dealer in my example, or yours too for that matter. I hope that your future lessons are not painful and that you will continue to enjoy this great hobby.
However, I do know this. It is reasonable to assume that any adult with the financial ability to spend $100,000/year in coins would be wise enough, when asked to sign ANY piece of paper (including an invoice), what the implications will be, or to at least ask questions like the following. "Why would I need to sign an invoice? My signature wouldn't commit me to purchasing the coin, would it? You understand I don't intend to buy this coin, correct?" All of these questions would be prudent, prior to signing any invoice in any transaction. Wouldn't you agree? Any prudent, knowledgeable business person with the financial ability to spend over $100,000 per year on any hobby should understand a signature has some binding commitments attached. Just my opinion.
K S
You gotta love this hobby! So many ways to get screwed, without as so much as a kiss!
<< <i>Basically the consignment dealer said he "played us both." >>
Must suck when a collector turns the table.
I don’t think Registryset is losing out by not being “allowed” to purchase from the Owner/Dealer again. Assuming what I’ve read here is pretty much accurate (where it doesn't disagree outright), I think I’d be leery of dealing with the 1st Dealer. Let’s see, he agreed to sell it off-eBay at the low end of the offering range, but then reneged because he had a buyer at the BIN price. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t – but if he didn’t have one who subsequently backed out on him, then it sounds like he lied to Registryset. He then hauls the coin with him to a show where Dealer 2 seems to think he has better prospects to sell it, and then he offers to sell it directly, which would cut out Dealer 2. Last, he promises to cut Dealer 2 in after all (with his partner raising the price to cover it), but originally deals Dealer 2 out (until after this has brewed up in this forum and maybe word has gotten back to him). The Owner/Dealer seems to like to wheel and deal on the edge ... and three strikes is plenty “out” to me.
Secondly, I have a hard time understanding why Registryset bought the coin in any case. He was aware that it had gone through eBay several times garnering without gaining a bid … which suggests that anyone interested in it had had ample time to notice it and decide the opening bid was not for them. With no competition the last round either, a $13k+ bid could have been put in any time. After getting the seller to accept a minimum offer and then having him renege, that would probably be it for me with that seller. But then, he went for it at ever higher amounts at the show. In the end, he got it for much higher than the BIN on eBay.
Of course, if anybody wants to offer me a $2500+ dollar “fee” per coin to buy coins for them over and above what they know they can get it for, well, I’d be willing … then I could afford five-figure coins myself.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
<< <i>Oooooh, Freaky, for a second there I thought you were Mark Feld! >>
He is my idol.
In his honor I will be listing a bunch of marginal coins for sale in the set registry forum.
<< <i>Address my statements here Bob, I can take it. Do you have the stones to say to me here what you just PM'd me? I think you've proven yourself an azz in private as well as publicly and I don't care how much business you've done. I suspect I'm a far better chemist than you are a coin dealer. >>
Way to go bob.
Seems Your Bullsh!t has run it's course.
I even see enough of dealers buying consigned inventory from their consigner then jacking the price way up beyond the original consigned price, so ownership of inventory is not always the solution..
Quite frankly, I applaud the collector for having the balls and guts to do what he did to Bob. It showed his true colors. I despise such a collector for pulling that crap.
Let me tell you this, Bob; I would never, ever buy or ever buy or sell with a collector who pulled that stunt. Quiite frankly if collectors EVER expect dealers to take a higher road and play it more straight, then we need to put our money where our mouth is and NOT play that game.
Quite frankly, as a human being, if I was in the same situation as the collector, I would have walked away from the coin altogether. No coin is ever so important to have pitted the dealers against one another or to have denied you the chance to have sold the coin while at a very, very busy show. But you took a chance on the collector, and you paid for it.
I don't care if the collector screwed up by failing to snipe the coin originally. So, if the two dealers including you raised the price from $13,500 to $16,500 or whatever, I would have simply walked away. I have done so in the past and ended up far better off than the collector!
Is this NUmised revived ??
I don't know about that. I think the coin biz, just like any other biz, has always had the good and the bad. Just have to work hard to find the good dealers.....then stick with em.
how many levels of profit are built into this thing, and how could an owner extract it's true value is beyond me. Seems like an awful lot fo built in layers of "fuzzy and potential" profit means a higher and higher price paid by the collector. Dealer A has a profit to make, Dealer B has a profit to make, and who is to say Dealer A does or doesn't own it and may be flipping it for someone else, with a profit to make.
Collector might spend $16,500 for a coin that wouldn't bring $12,000 if he tried to sell it at a future time.
Why does the term "pyramid" come to mind?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
with the other dealer or the former client. They both have no honor in a bussiness where a persons
word is their bond.
Camelot
This is our hobby at its finest! Like Nic, Mike and others have said,
it's all about your WORD...not the paper. If I quote a coin too low, too bad, it's sold. If someone else offers more, too bad, it's sold.
Does anyone know how to install a Dorkarl/Keets filter so threads like these can be made 20-30% shorter??
roadrunner
K S
Second, I wouldn't sign anymore pieces of paper that may be legally binding if I were you.
Not without my lawyer present
> Why would a dealer who is attending the same show have another dealer sell his coin with potental to lose 7 % profit on such a large sum of money?
Yeah that does seem bizarre.
>hey evillageprowler, that's becuase your confusing "condoning" a certain behavior w/ "defending" it.
You sound like you think that you're supporting his right to choose but not his bad choice.
That's not the case. You are saying he has the right to go back on his word. We are saying that
it's unethical (and thus he doesn't really have the right) to do so. I think you may be confusing extra information you have that
we don't in this specific case with the broader issue we are all discussing.
> i do not purport to be of such high-esteem that i could bring judgement on the 3 people involved in that transaction. who else in this thread can say the same?
That's because your ethics seem very situational and wishy-washy.
-KHayse
K S
"ethics" is situational
Karl:
I disagree!!!!!
K S
I signed a fixed price contract with a moving company once. Long story short, after the move and before the truck was unpacked the movers got tired after a long day and decided I had "too much stuff" and demanded more money before unloading the truck. When I refused, they left the scene (with all my stuff) and took the truck back to the company. After spending the night on the floor, the next morning I made a phone call to my attorney. He made one phone call......Needless to say, these jokers were back at my new house within 30 minutes and unloading. It cost me money and some stress, but it was necessary. When the attorney bill showed up, I happily paid the $100 he charged me.
I've gone on record as being against attorneys in the Jadecoin situation, but there is a time-and-a place for them. I'd say this is it.
I'd pay $100 (or a small fee) to an attorney and have he/she make 2 phone calls. I wouldn't be surprised if the issue is resolved in a few days. If not, make sure the message from your attorney is that you will never deal with them again.
Free Trial
For what it is worth I don't think David did anything wrong except not bid $13,500 for the coin while he had the chance.
09/07/2006
to worry about the question, whatever it was, so many moons ago.
Camelot