Home U.S. Coin Forum

Simply a matter of ethics

This actually happened to me at the ANA show. A customer came by the table and looked over a coin I had on memo from a dealer/client. He agreed to buy the coin for $16,500 after I shared my cost of $15,500 with him. He was walking the show with his daughter and had not brought his check book so I invoiced the coin to him and he signed the invoice and we shook hands. I naturally told the owner of the coin that he could write it up as sold.

At the end of the day the buyer called me to say he didn't want the coin after all. Naturally I was surprised as this was the finest known example at a fair price and one that I know he wanted.

The following morning the dealer who had offered me the coin asked for its return as he had an interested buyer. It turns out it was the previous days buyer who reneged on our deal. To make matters worse I informed the dealer that this was the same buyer and I have a signed invoice. He said not to worry I'm in on the deal and he won't sell me out.

Guess what, the deal went through at my $15,500 invoiced price to the buyer and neither the reneger or the dealer even offered any compensation to me.

Just another backdoor deal gone astray. As a matter of ethics, which culprit is worse the dealer or the buyer?
Bob Green
bgreen@parkavenumis.com
800-992-9881
Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
«1345

Comments

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,995 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Dealer's (lack of) ethics is worse as he is accountable to a higher standard.

    -I'd write off that Collector though too.

    peacockcoins

  • FinallyHereFinallyHere Posts: 822 ✭✭✭
    Bob,

    I would say they are both to be avoided. Not sure if trying to pick "the bad guy" even makes sense. Sorry to hear of your bad deal.

    Mike Printz
    Larry Whitlow, Ltd.
    Web Site
    Mike Printz
    Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
    https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm with Braddick on this, though both of them are caras de pau.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • ERER Posts: 7,345
    PUNKS!imageimage
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭
    That sucks image You should have never mentioned what your cost was imho.
    I think they both the buyer and dealer share are equal in squeezing you out on this one.
  • Names have been withheld to protect the ignorantimage
    Bob Green
    bgreen@parkavenumis.com
    800-992-9881
    Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
  • The real crime in this is that the dealer was a former employee of mine, who was a buyer. Sometimes he would buy coins I didnt particulary like and I'd tell him to pass on tem and he would read me chapter and verse about not ruining his reputation by canceling a deal .....

    I appreciate the feedback. At least my resentment is justified.
    Bob Green
    bgreen@parkavenumis.com
    800-992-9881
    Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
  • Bob,

    Sorry to hear about your deal-gone-bad. Both the buyer and the seller should be ashamed of their ethics. We have had similar situations in the past, so I share your frustration.

    However, I would not write-off either culprit. If you keep the door open for future dealings, then you may have a chance to recover some of your losses through the course of normal business. This is especially true if you make your feelings clear to both parties TODAY. I would write (not call) both parties and very, very tactfully and professionally tell them that you feel that you were unjustly slighted in the deal. Relay to them that, had you not paid $2000 for your table and expenses at the ANA show, the end seller and customer may not have ever met. Don't ask for compensation....just state your feelings. Wish them well and move on, but keep the door of opportunity open. One of my favorite sayings is "never burn a bridge unless it pays".

    jadecoin
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    On second thought, I'll just keep quiet.

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • gsaguygsaguy Posts: 2,425
    To me, both are at fault here and both should be avoided in future deals.

    Quick story:

    At the TNA in Ft. Worth, a long-time dealer buddy of mine was looking for me. I was out of the country. He approached a dealer who he thought was my partner because we often share a table together. He sold this dealer a coin (for $500) that he would otherwise have held for me....again, because he assumed we were partners. That dealer later sold the coin to me upon my return to the U.S.

    While at a show in Bessemer, the first dealer comes up to me and said, "what did you think of that coin I sold to you and your partner?". I said, "what coin and what partner?".

    After learning the details of the deal, and talking to both sides, here's what happened.

    I paid the first dealer an additional $500 because, as I told him, I'd have paid him $1,000 for that coin had I been at the show.

    After learning the details, the second dealer (my pseudo-partner) refused to take anything more than the original $500 he'd paid for the coin plus a grading fee he'd incurred. Now, keep in mind that I'd agreed originally to pay him more than $1,000 for the coin because we both agreed it's value exceeded $1,000.

    To me, collecting coins and dealing coins should be fun. It's not always so. But when I deal with persons like the two dealers I've mentioned in this thread, coins are fun.

    Bob, I feel you got screwed royally in your deal.

    GSAGUY
    image
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    it's not a question of ethics, it's a question of foolishness. why are you taking such coins on memo? why not just buy them outright? your tactics inflate the mkt, because now there's a "middleman" in the transaction, so the poor swine collector gets douible-whammied, he has to pay extra for your markup, plus extra for the original dealer's markup.

    that's what sucks in your scenario. there is no "ethics" problem here.

    K S
  • ERER Posts: 7,345
    JamesDennis,
    I still say they are PUNKS!
  • DCAMFranklinDCAMFranklin Posts: 2,862 ✭✭
    They are both total skanks! Your ex-buyer should be avoided at all costs.




    image
  • coinlieutenantcoinlieutenant Posts: 9,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very poor form all around.

    Any names shared thru PM would be appreciated. If it happens once it will happen again. Like to keep a little black book...

    John
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Businesses needs to insist on strict ethical conduct. Hasn't anything been learned from the corporate debacles of recent years? You should blacklist both the buyer and seller. These are bridges that need to be burned. The coin hobby doesn't need these folks!
    All glory is fleeting.
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If you keep the door open for future dealings, then you may have a chance to recover some of your losses through the course of normal business. >>



    This is actually a pretty good idea. If you lay in wait long enough, plan carefully and the right opportunity comes along, you can lay a mammoth screw job on them and nail them to the wall! Remember, revenge is a dish best served cold.

    image

    Russ, NCNE
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ethical dealers AND collectors are a precious commodity - they are to be savored and enjoyed. I used to think "ethical dealer" was a oxymoron. Fortunately I now know a few.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • dorkkarl - spoken like a true retail buyer image
    "it's not a question of ethics, it's a question of foolishness. why are you taking such coins on memo? why not just buy them outright? your tactics inflate the mkt, because now there's a "middleman" in the transaction, so the poor swine collector gets douible-whammied, he has to pay extra for your markup, plus extra for the original dealer's markup.

    that's what sucks in your scenario. there is no "ethics" problem here."

    Bob Green
    bgreen@parkavenumis.com
    800-992-9881
    Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
  • James,Dennis
    I still say they are PUNKS!

    Hey ER, I agree that they are both PUNKS, but I did not want to say that. Thanks for saying it for us!! image
  • gsaguygsaguy Posts: 2,425
    Dorkkarl,

    How would Bob's final asking price have been any different had he bought the coin outright or taken it on memo? Either way his cost would have been $15,500.

    GSAGUY
    image
  • MacCrimmonMacCrimmon Posts: 7,051 ✭✭✭
    Is he a candidate for action through the PNG? If not, I would advise that the dealer make good your damages of $1000. or you will advise any and all dealers of his actions. What about small claims court? Monetary limits?

    Your industry has enough festering sores. Why let another parasite continue to operate in this manner? Frankly, if he'll screw another dealer, what wonderful plans does he have in store for collectors? Some lasering, maybe some other curating tricks to turn a garbage coin into a "headlight"!!??



  • GSAGuy

    I'm just glad I didnt try to chisel him down for a done deal after my invoice was signed. image
    Bob Green
    bgreen@parkavenumis.com
    800-992-9881
    Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,485
    dorkkarl, you might not approve of a dealer's taking a coin on consignment, acting as a middleman and making money, if the coin sells. That is your right. But, that does not negate the lack of ethics on the part of the two people whom Bob dealt with. You ignored/missed one point, in trying to make your own.

    Of course, I would place the blame on Bob, anyway. With two simple and, to forum members, completely unambiguous words, everyone would have known where they stood and the transaction would have been flawless - "done deal".image

    Edited to add:

    I see that Bob beat me to the punch with those two magical words.imageimage
  • DorkKarl, it sounds like Bob was charging $1000 to sell a $15,500 coin. That seems reasonable for a specialty coin such as a rare pattern. Again, the collector may have never found the coin if it were not on consignment to parkave and on display in Baltimore.

    To make a long story short, the original dealer just got some great FREE advertising from parkave. To make it all better, the first dealer should have send Bob a check for at least $200 and say "thanks".

    Dennis
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bob: I can not comment on why your ex-employee (dealer) did not share the profit on the coin with you in some manner or another. I guess that is something you will discuss with him in the future.

    But, I wouldn't be so hard on the collector. He is an honest and reputable person, who many of the top dealers on this board deal with on a daily basis, problem-free, and know to be a class act.

    I think the confusion for the collector was that he saw the coin in question go unsold without a bid on ebay for a few thousand dollars less a week or so before the show. He even asked me (and I think one other dealer) if I could track it down around the price it did not sell on ebay (which I would have been happy to do normally), but, I simply got busy at the show and did not pursue the coin in any manner. And, I am glad I didn't at this point image

    But, in the case of the collector, I do believe it was simply a matter of not appreciating the "formalities". And many a collector on this board has run into the same problem from time to time I suspect. image

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • baccarudabaccaruda Posts: 2,588 ✭✭
    I have to admit that I'd definitely pass if I knew the coin was being sold on consignment and try to buy it direct from the owner. The buyer's not at fault IMO, he's trying to get the best deal. If you want to assess blame - it's the other dealer. He used your services and didn't compensate you.

    From my point of view - never let the buyer know it's a consigned coin.


    I've always wondered if people do this in real estate. Using a realtor is a complete scam IMO, 6% of the value? please. It can take a homeowner 5-10 years to acquire 6% of the equity of their house, and the realtor gets it all for a few hours work?
    1 Tassa-slap
    2 Cam-Slams!
    1 Russ POTD!
  • gsaguygsaguy Posts: 2,425
    I was trying to avoid using those dreaded words!image

    GSAGUY
    image
  • DCAMFranklinDCAMFranklin Posts: 2,862 ✭✭
    Wouldn't it be nice if the collector came here and provided his own defense, instead of hiding behind someone's skirt?


    image
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    DCAM - The collector is not a board member, or at least does not post here ever (who knows who anyone really is around here). image

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,387 ✭✭✭
    Once you sign a document, it's a contract. Even if you found a better deal for the same coin or a similar one. In this case, a bilateral contract if I remember my legalese. I don't think it's an ethical issue. I think it's a contract issue. And, depending upon the terms of the consignment, the first dealer may not have had a right to sell the coin in the first place. And the buyer already signed a contract to purchase. I don't think breaking contracts is a wise thing. When I sign something, I fulfill it even if I regret it while doing it.
  • ERER Posts: 7,345


    << <i>................................ (who knows who anyone really is around here). image
    Wondercoin >>


    Actually, I am NumisEd.image
  • gsaguygsaguy Posts: 2,425
    I have to agree with nwcs. In essence, the 'collector' signed a contract. While he may not be savvy in the ways of coin dealing...he certainly knew he'd signed an agreement to buy the coin at a certain price and after he walked away, the coin was no longer on the market at the most important show of the year.

    GSAGUY
    image
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    GSAGUY - Actually, the sad part is I do not believe the collector realized he was doing that! He has more to learn than I even thought he did, if he indeed executed a contract on the coin! image

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • BustmanBustman Posts: 1,911


    << <i>it's not a question of ethics, it's a question of foolishness. why are you taking such coins on memo? why not just buy them outright? your tactics inflate the mkt, because now there's a "middleman" in the transaction, so the poor swine collector gets douible-whammied, he has to pay extra for your markup, plus extra for the original dealer's markup.

    that's what sucks in your scenario. there is no "ethics" problem here.

    I knew someone would find away to try and turn this in to a dealer bashing thread.image
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,738 ✭✭✭
    Mitch, if a I am reading what happened correctly, then the eventual buyer did commit an act of dishonesty, he called up Park and told them he was no longer interested in the coin, when in actuality he had already made a deal on it with the owner. A white lie perhaps, but still an act of dishonesty and if he had felt had done nothing wrong, why wasn't he more truthful? Before you start your legalese on me, I won't buy the argument that the buyer did indeed change his mind, then changed it again and decided to buy it.image

    Barracuda and others, it would be very difficult to name an item that hasn't had the price increased by a middleman, milk, beer, meat, bread etc. That new car is marked up from the factory through a dealer aka a middleman. People list a home with a realtor after negotiating the fee to do so and that fee is included in the purchase price, so eventually they buyer does pay it. That fee opens the market up for many more buyers then if it was listed for sale by owner. Simple economics would tell you that the more demand created for a product, in this case a house the higher price it will be bring and more importantly to some sellers the quicker the house will sell.

    I can tell you from 30+ years of lending that most FSBO's (for sale by owners) turn out to be a nightmare. Most buyers had wished they had never entered into a transaction on a nonlisted property. That commission paid will be recouped by the new owner in the increased price they will receive when they sell if they list it. This of course assumes all other things being equal, and that it is a normal market. Of course exceptions exist to every rule.
  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Both would be erased from my list of people to do business with.

    Genuine coin in what I'm assuming is a major grading services slab at market price (this eliminates the scenerios where a lack of education about a coin or the market comes into play and we have the subjective arguments about fairness) and you sign an invoice and shake hands (forget the invoice, you shake hands), it's a done deal PERIOD.

    I'm from the school that once you've given your "Yes" or had the hand shake that's it, done. Second thoughts ... found a better deal ... your wife yells at you... doesn't matter, the deal is done and you live with the pain.

    That said I'm very slow to say yes or extend my hand. But once said or done its done.
    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bustman: My comments here are certainly not intended to "bash" anyone. In fact, if ParkAve plays this right (and "goes easy" on the neophyte collector as I suggested), they could possibly "parlay" this "bad deal" into a good business relationship with an honest collector who spends well into 6 figures on coins each year (spread out among many dealers). The old "making lemonade from lemons" act image

    Wondercoin

    P.S. IrishMike - I have not spoken to the collector on this issue since the ANA, but, it is my understanding that the collector had no deal in place to buy the coin when he passed on the coin. I personally agree with you on your comment had it been otherwise.
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭


    << <i>dorkkarl - spoken like a true retail buyer >>

    you got me there bob image



    << <i>Dorkkarl, How would Bob's final asking price have been any different had he bought the coin outright or taken it on memo? Either way his cost would have been $15,500. >>

    simple, there would never become an issue of someone sneaking around somebody else's back. it's not a question of how much the retail buyer ended up paying, whether it's more or less than it coulda/woulda/shoulda been, once the floor is established for the coin's price, that's it.

    ie. once you OWN a coin, you know what your bottom price is, & you stick to it. but if you have it on CONSIGNMENT, then suddenly the bottom price is flexible & depends on who you actually buy the coin from (ie consigner or consignee). & this is exactly what happens, it becomes open-season for the retail buyer to try & rat out the best price.

    call me ethics-less then, but if i could save $1000 on a coin, far as i'm concerned, screw the dealer, i'll take the coin at 7% off, thank you very much



    << <i>dorkkarl, you might not approve of a dealer's taking a coin on consignment ... But, that does not negate the lack of ethics on the part of the two people whom Bob dealt with. >>

    sorry coinguy1, but like bob pointed out, i'm a true retail buyer, & i don't care about the mickey-mouse memo deals dealers play w/ 1 another or who strokes who, if i can save $1000, what right do you have to stop me? this is the free-market system at it's best.



    << <i>DorkKarl, it sounds like Bob was charging $1000 to sell a $15,500 coin >>

    who cares? i'm a collector, & i'm in the hobby FOR ME. if you dealers can't get your contracts straight, it ain't my problem. like i said, i'll save $1000 any day, so long as it's not illegal.

    K S
  • There is one consideration that is equally applicable to dealer and collector alike... you are only as good as your word. Negotiation is fine, seeking the best value for your money is fine, as is trying to get the best price for your material... but once you SAY you're going to do something, IMHO you have made a commitment and placed your reputation on the line as a deposit.

    In this circumstance, the collector put the value of his word at $1,000 and took the money. The dealer didn't even value his own word that highly, as he burned a long time acquaintance for not even one thin dime! Sad, sad, sad...
    Will Rossman
    Peak Numismatics
    Monument, CO
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    bustman, i'm definitely not bashing any dealers. i am looking at it from a retail customer (which i am) perspective. it's cut & dried - if 2 people offer me a coin, & 1 offers it to me for $1000 off, who am i gonna buy from?

    the issue is not ethics - it's that parkave didn't have a contractual agreement w/ the consignor IN WRITING.

    very unwise.

    K S
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As a businessman who protects himself, I do my best to know who are my clients. Most of them are honorable people. However, there are a few of them for whom I will not release any work until either their check clears my bank or they pay me in either cash or with a money order.

    Bob had a done deal. The other parties here are caras de pau.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭


    << <i>once you OWN a coin, you know what your bottom price is, & you stick to it. but if you have it on CONSIGNMENT, then suddenly the bottom price is flexible & depends on who you actually buy the coin from (ie consigner or consignee). & this is exactly what happens, it becomes open-season for the retail buyer to try & rat out the best price. >>



    Ah, Karl, I get it. The mechanics of the acquisition of the coin by the dealer is justification for unethical behavior on the part of the retail buyer. It's all so clear now.

    Russ, NCNE
  • They are both pieces of trash. The dealer is the bigger piece of trash as he promised you you would not be "left out" and went against his/her word.

    Paul
  • gsaguygsaguy Posts: 2,425
    Note to self: Attend Dorkkarl's next class on establishing long-lasting relationships in the coin biz.imageimage

    GSAGUY
    image
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I also think the dealer is the less ethical of the two. In your position, as long as it did not significantly impact your business, I would not deal for the dealer again.

    As a collector, I would not have the nerve to pull off what the collector pulled off. The next time you have a high-demand coin that is on his want list and someone else's, who is going to get the call first? So he saved 6% on the deal, but he ruined the relationship in the process. I would pay an extra 6% to keep a good relationship intact.
  • coinlieutenantcoinlieutenant Posts: 9,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dorkkarl,

    Understand that you want to save money. The issue here is that the customer made an agreement and reneged on it. Lack of ethics. Nothing illegal. and nothing to do with your hate of memo's.

    They happen all the time and I am sure that you have bought a memoed coin. Start a new thread bashing memo's if you want. They are a part of the networking for coins and in my opinion are a good thing.

    A coin is worth what its worth.

    John
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭
    The buyer gave no money but did sign a invoice. What the invoice said exactly is unknown.
    They shook hands but what was said prior to the hand shake is unknown.

    I guess to be fair the details left out could change the prespective on the buyer.
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    c'mon dudes, get real! tell me that when you decide it's time to plunk down $15,000 on something that you won't take a better price if you find it?

    say you decide to buy a brand-new station wagon at joe's-fords, & agree on $15,000. joe tells you he doesn't have your color in stock, so he's gonna get 1 sent over from al's-ford. later that day, you go by al's-ford, & big al offers it to you at $14,000

    TELL ME HONESTLY that you wouldn't buy the $14,000 car.

    bottom line is that parkave screwed up by not getting a contract in writing from his buddy not to sell coins out from underneath him. he11, i ain't no dealer but i know better than that.

    K S
  • Park ave, send your ex-employee, the coin seller, an Invoice for $1,000.00 and write on it "Commission Earned"....
    Hey, nothin ventured, nothin gained....

    I sure do not know how the seller/owner and the new buyer got hooked up,
    but I can see how the buyer wanted to save the $1,000.00 , and I think it IS the Owner/seller that let him get away with it.....

    IMHO....
    Support your local Coin Shop
    LM-ANA3242-CSNS308-MSNS226-ICTA
  • I'm a man of my word. If I agree to buy something then I follow through. Of course I go shopping first, before I say "done deal"...

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file