Simply a matter of ethics
parkave
Posts: 109 ✭
This actually happened to me at the ANA show. A customer came by the table and looked over a coin I had on memo from a dealer/client. He agreed to buy the coin for $16,500 after I shared my cost of $15,500 with him. He was walking the show with his daughter and had not brought his check book so I invoiced the coin to him and he signed the invoice and we shook hands. I naturally told the owner of the coin that he could write it up as sold.
At the end of the day the buyer called me to say he didn't want the coin after all. Naturally I was surprised as this was the finest known example at a fair price and one that I know he wanted.
The following morning the dealer who had offered me the coin asked for its return as he had an interested buyer. It turns out it was the previous days buyer who reneged on our deal. To make matters worse I informed the dealer that this was the same buyer and I have a signed invoice. He said not to worry I'm in on the deal and he won't sell me out.
Guess what, the deal went through at my $15,500 invoiced price to the buyer and neither the reneger or the dealer even offered any compensation to me.
Just another backdoor deal gone astray. As a matter of ethics, which culprit is worse the dealer or the buyer?
At the end of the day the buyer called me to say he didn't want the coin after all. Naturally I was surprised as this was the finest known example at a fair price and one that I know he wanted.
The following morning the dealer who had offered me the coin asked for its return as he had an interested buyer. It turns out it was the previous days buyer who reneged on our deal. To make matters worse I informed the dealer that this was the same buyer and I have a signed invoice. He said not to worry I'm in on the deal and he won't sell me out.
Guess what, the deal went through at my $15,500 invoiced price to the buyer and neither the reneger or the dealer even offered any compensation to me.
Just another backdoor deal gone astray. As a matter of ethics, which culprit is worse the dealer or the buyer?
Bob Green
bgreen@parkavenumis.com
800-992-9881
Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
bgreen@parkavenumis.com
800-992-9881
Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
0
Comments
-I'd write off that Collector though too.
peacockcoins
I would say they are both to be avoided. Not sure if trying to pick "the bad guy" even makes sense. Sorry to hear of your bad deal.
Mike Printz
Larry Whitlow, Ltd.
Web Site
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I think they both the buyer and dealer share are equal in squeezing you out on this one.
bgreen@parkavenumis.com
800-992-9881
Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
I appreciate the feedback. At least my resentment is justified.
bgreen@parkavenumis.com
800-992-9881
Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
Sorry to hear about your deal-gone-bad. Both the buyer and the seller should be ashamed of their ethics. We have had similar situations in the past, so I share your frustration.
However, I would not write-off either culprit. If you keep the door open for future dealings, then you may have a chance to recover some of your losses through the course of normal business. This is especially true if you make your feelings clear to both parties TODAY. I would write (not call) both parties and very, very tactfully and professionally tell them that you feel that you were unjustly slighted in the deal. Relay to them that, had you not paid $2000 for your table and expenses at the ANA show, the end seller and customer may not have ever met. Don't ask for compensation....just state your feelings. Wish them well and move on, but keep the door of opportunity open. One of my favorite sayings is "never burn a bridge unless it pays".
jadecoin
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Quick story:
At the TNA in Ft. Worth, a long-time dealer buddy of mine was looking for me. I was out of the country. He approached a dealer who he thought was my partner because we often share a table together. He sold this dealer a coin (for $500) that he would otherwise have held for me....again, because he assumed we were partners. That dealer later sold the coin to me upon my return to the U.S.
While at a show in Bessemer, the first dealer comes up to me and said, "what did you think of that coin I sold to you and your partner?". I said, "what coin and what partner?".
After learning the details of the deal, and talking to both sides, here's what happened.
I paid the first dealer an additional $500 because, as I told him, I'd have paid him $1,000 for that coin had I been at the show.
After learning the details, the second dealer (my pseudo-partner) refused to take anything more than the original $500 he'd paid for the coin plus a grading fee he'd incurred. Now, keep in mind that I'd agreed originally to pay him more than $1,000 for the coin because we both agreed it's value exceeded $1,000.
To me, collecting coins and dealing coins should be fun. It's not always so. But when I deal with persons like the two dealers I've mentioned in this thread, coins are fun.
Bob, I feel you got screwed royally in your deal.
GSAGUY
that's what sucks in your scenario. there is no "ethics" problem here.
K S
I still say they are PUNKS!
Any names shared thru PM would be appreciated. If it happens once it will happen again. Like to keep a little black book...
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>If you keep the door open for future dealings, then you may have a chance to recover some of your losses through the course of normal business. >>
This is actually a pretty good idea. If you lay in wait long enough, plan carefully and the right opportunity comes along, you can lay a mammoth screw job on them and nail them to the wall! Remember, revenge is a dish best served cold.
Russ, NCNE
"it's not a question of ethics, it's a question of foolishness. why are you taking such coins on memo? why not just buy them outright? your tactics inflate the mkt, because now there's a "middleman" in the transaction, so the poor swine collector gets douible-whammied, he has to pay extra for your markup, plus extra for the original dealer's markup.
that's what sucks in your scenario. there is no "ethics" problem here."
bgreen@parkavenumis.com
800-992-9881
Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
I still say they are PUNKS!
Hey ER, I agree that they are both PUNKS, but I did not want to say that. Thanks for saying it for us!!
How would Bob's final asking price have been any different had he bought the coin outright or taken it on memo? Either way his cost would have been $15,500.
GSAGUY
Your industry has enough festering sores. Why let another parasite continue to operate in this manner? Frankly, if he'll screw another dealer, what wonderful plans does he have in store for collectors? Some lasering, maybe some other curating tricks to turn a garbage coin into a "headlight"!!??
I'm just glad I didnt try to chisel him down for a done deal after my invoice was signed.
bgreen@parkavenumis.com
800-992-9881
Visit us at www.parkavenumis.com
Of course, I would place the blame on Bob, anyway. With two simple and, to forum members, completely unambiguous words, everyone would have known where they stood and the transaction would have been flawless - "done deal".
Edited to add:
I see that Bob beat me to the punch with those two magical words.
To make a long story short, the original dealer just got some great FREE advertising from parkave. To make it all better, the first dealer should have send Bob a check for at least $200 and say "thanks".
Dennis
But, I wouldn't be so hard on the collector. He is an honest and reputable person, who many of the top dealers on this board deal with on a daily basis, problem-free, and know to be a class act.
I think the confusion for the collector was that he saw the coin in question go unsold without a bid on ebay for a few thousand dollars less a week or so before the show. He even asked me (and I think one other dealer) if I could track it down around the price it did not sell on ebay (which I would have been happy to do normally), but, I simply got busy at the show and did not pursue the coin in any manner. And, I am glad I didn't at this point
But, in the case of the collector, I do believe it was simply a matter of not appreciating the "formalities". And many a collector on this board has run into the same problem from time to time I suspect.
Wondercoin
From my point of view - never let the buyer know it's a consigned coin.
I've always wondered if people do this in real estate. Using a realtor is a complete scam IMO, 6% of the value? please. It can take a homeowner 5-10 years to acquire 6% of the equity of their house, and the realtor gets it all for a few hours work?
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
GSAGUY
Wondercoin
<< <i>................................ (who knows who anyone really is around here).
Wondercoin >>
Actually, I am NumisEd.
GSAGUY
Wondercoin
<< <i>it's not a question of ethics, it's a question of foolishness. why are you taking such coins on memo? why not just buy them outright? your tactics inflate the mkt, because now there's a "middleman" in the transaction, so the poor swine collector gets douible-whammied, he has to pay extra for your markup, plus extra for the original dealer's markup.
that's what sucks in your scenario. there is no "ethics" problem here.
I knew someone would find away to try and turn this in to a dealer bashing thread.
Barracuda and others, it would be very difficult to name an item that hasn't had the price increased by a middleman, milk, beer, meat, bread etc. That new car is marked up from the factory through a dealer aka a middleman. People list a home with a realtor after negotiating the fee to do so and that fee is included in the purchase price, so eventually they buyer does pay it. That fee opens the market up for many more buyers then if it was listed for sale by owner. Simple economics would tell you that the more demand created for a product, in this case a house the higher price it will be bring and more importantly to some sellers the quicker the house will sell.
I can tell you from 30+ years of lending that most FSBO's (for sale by owners) turn out to be a nightmare. Most buyers had wished they had never entered into a transaction on a nonlisted property. That commission paid will be recouped by the new owner in the increased price they will receive when they sell if they list it. This of course assumes all other things being equal, and that it is a normal market. Of course exceptions exist to every rule.
Genuine coin in what I'm assuming is a major grading services slab at market price (this eliminates the scenerios where a lack of education about a coin or the market comes into play and we have the subjective arguments about fairness) and you sign an invoice and shake hands (forget the invoice, you shake hands), it's a done deal PERIOD.
I'm from the school that once you've given your "Yes" or had the hand shake that's it, done. Second thoughts ... found a better deal ... your wife yells at you... doesn't matter, the deal is done and you live with the pain.
That said I'm very slow to say yes or extend my hand. But once said or done its done.
Wondercoin
P.S. IrishMike - I have not spoken to the collector on this issue since the ANA, but, it is my understanding that the collector had no deal in place to buy the coin when he passed on the coin. I personally agree with you on your comment had it been otherwise.
<< <i>dorkkarl - spoken like a true retail buyer >>
you got me there bob
<< <i>Dorkkarl, How would Bob's final asking price have been any different had he bought the coin outright or taken it on memo? Either way his cost would have been $15,500. >>
simple, there would never become an issue of someone sneaking around somebody else's back. it's not a question of how much the retail buyer ended up paying, whether it's more or less than it coulda/woulda/shoulda been, once the floor is established for the coin's price, that's it.
ie. once you OWN a coin, you know what your bottom price is, & you stick to it. but if you have it on CONSIGNMENT, then suddenly the bottom price is flexible & depends on who you actually buy the coin from (ie consigner or consignee). & this is exactly what happens, it becomes open-season for the retail buyer to try & rat out the best price.
call me ethics-less then, but if i could save $1000 on a coin, far as i'm concerned, screw the dealer, i'll take the coin at 7% off, thank you very much
<< <i>dorkkarl, you might not approve of a dealer's taking a coin on consignment ... But, that does not negate the lack of ethics on the part of the two people whom Bob dealt with. >>
sorry coinguy1, but like bob pointed out, i'm a true retail buyer, & i don't care about the mickey-mouse memo deals dealers play w/ 1 another or who strokes who, if i can save $1000, what right do you have to stop me? this is the free-market system at it's best.
<< <i>DorkKarl, it sounds like Bob was charging $1000 to sell a $15,500 coin >>
who cares? i'm a collector, & i'm in the hobby FOR ME. if you dealers can't get your contracts straight, it ain't my problem. like i said, i'll save $1000 any day, so long as it's not illegal.
K S
In this circumstance, the collector put the value of his word at $1,000 and took the money. The dealer didn't even value his own word that highly, as he burned a long time acquaintance for not even one thin dime! Sad, sad, sad...
Peak Numismatics
Monument, CO
the issue is not ethics - it's that parkave didn't have a contractual agreement w/ the consignor IN WRITING.
very unwise.
K S
Bob had a done deal. The other parties here are caras de pau.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>once you OWN a coin, you know what your bottom price is, & you stick to it. but if you have it on CONSIGNMENT, then suddenly the bottom price is flexible & depends on who you actually buy the coin from (ie consigner or consignee). & this is exactly what happens, it becomes open-season for the retail buyer to try & rat out the best price. >>
Ah, Karl, I get it. The mechanics of the acquisition of the coin by the dealer is justification for unethical behavior on the part of the retail buyer. It's all so clear now.
Russ, NCNE
Paul
GSAGUY
As a collector, I would not have the nerve to pull off what the collector pulled off. The next time you have a high-demand coin that is on his want list and someone else's, who is going to get the call first? So he saved 6% on the deal, but he ruined the relationship in the process. I would pay an extra 6% to keep a good relationship intact.
Understand that you want to save money. The issue here is that the customer made an agreement and reneged on it. Lack of ethics. Nothing illegal. and nothing to do with your hate of memo's.
They happen all the time and I am sure that you have bought a memoed coin. Start a new thread bashing memo's if you want. They are a part of the networking for coins and in my opinion are a good thing.
A coin is worth what its worth.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
They shook hands but what was said prior to the hand shake is unknown.
I guess to be fair the details left out could change the prespective on the buyer.
say you decide to buy a brand-new station wagon at joe's-fords, & agree on $15,000. joe tells you he doesn't have your color in stock, so he's gonna get 1 sent over from al's-ford. later that day, you go by al's-ford, & big al offers it to you at $14,000
TELL ME HONESTLY that you wouldn't buy the $14,000 car.
bottom line is that parkave screwed up by not getting a contract in writing from his buddy not to sell coins out from underneath him. he11, i ain't no dealer but i know better than that.
K S
Hey, nothin ventured, nothin gained....
I sure do not know how the seller/owner and the new buyer got hooked up,
but I can see how the buyer wanted to save the $1,000.00 , and I think it IS the Owner/seller that let him get away with it.....
IMHO....
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