btw, you jumped to conclusions that i "hate memo's". baloney, i couldn't care less about it, UNLESS the dealers screw up their side of their arrangements & mess w/ my money.
if it's too expensive, then i didn't really want it, so i pass. that simple.
I agree there is some value added using a realtor, but it sure seems to be at an unreasonable cost.
I'm using my own situation. After using a dealer my house sold to the very first people to see the house - who made a full-price offer. The realtor's total time invested was probably about 4-5 hours and her commision was nearly $4,000. The people had been waiting for the house to go up for sale for a long time.
I am of like mind with Neil. In short, doesn't the guy's signature have any meaning whatsoever? As for the dealer, well, that to me has even less debate!
TELL ME HONESTLY that you wouldn't buy the $14,000 car.
Dorkkarl, Thats a very different scenario. Most people buy a car once every three to six or so years. So who really cares if there is one upset car salesman. If you want to establish any kind of ongoing relationship with a dealer, don't reneg on a done deal. So I guess this guy that screwed bob was not looking for a long term relationship.
you like getting embroiled in these things, don't you, trying to be a contrarian?? with statements like the ones below, i can understand why you keep your identity shrouded.
call me ethics-less then, but if i could save $1000 on a coin, far as i'm concerned, screw the dealer, i'll take the coin at 7% off, thank you very much
sorry coinguy1, but like bob pointed out, i'm a true retail buyer, & i don't care about the mickey-mouse memo deals dealers play w/ 1 another or who strokes who, if i can save $1000, what right do you have to stop me? this is the free-market system at it's best.
who cares? i'm a collector, & i'm in the hobby FOR ME. if you dealers can't get your contracts straight, it ain't my problem. like i said, i'll save $1000 any day, so long as it's not illegal.
herein lies the crux of the buyers ethical shortcoming: i am looking at it from a retail customer (which i am) perspective. it's cut & dried - if 2 people offer me a coin, & 1 offers it to me for $1000 off, who am i gonna buy from?
evidentally, the second person never offered to sell, but the buyer made him an offer to buy, and that's where his culpability lies. i certainly begrudge noone for looking out for themselves and getting the best deal they can. if you are of the mindset that this type of behavior, if it ocurred as outlined, is proper and a sound way to operate, then it is good for you to hide your identity.
hey parkave
my local dealer has collectors do silly things like this and he just bides his time to extract his measure of justice. that's really the only alternative besides shutting them down. just get back piece-meal and they'll never even know it. heck, i imagine that already neither of them realizes what they've done. that's the twist-----if you have no ethical standard, you don't even realize when you've screwed the pooch.
What is your word worth? Keeping my word has cost me thousands of dollars over the years. It's also made me hundreds of thousands because people trust me.
Perhaps you can share your various actual and online (e.g., ebay) personalities with us so the forum members and dealers can know who you are and be extra "happy" when you come aroun asking to look at a coin.
I'm sure that after all this, we' all love to venture into biz with you!
Dorkkarl do you think it was fine for the buyer to have parkave pull the coin from sale at the show so parkave lost out on possibility of selling the coin to someone else?
Or do you think parkave should have kept the coin on the table for sale the whole show and sold it if someone offered then told the buyer it already sold when he contacted him later?
If that would have happened then this thread might from the buyer complaining about how the dealer sold a coin he had on hold to someone else.
Please don't tell us you made this all up for a week or so - it's been too long since we've had a thread like this!
EVP - I heard a rumor on the bourse floor your working for Legend. Is that true??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
<< <i>say you decide to buy a brand-new station wagon at joe's-fords, & agree on $15,000. joe tells you he doesn't have your color in stock, so he's gonna get 1 sent over from al's-ford. later that day, you go by al's-ford, & big al offers it to you at $14,000
TELL ME HONESTLY that you wouldn't buy the $14,000 car. >>
If I had agreed to a deal on the first car, I would pay the $15,000. Sometimes, the right thing is not the easiest thing.
<< <i>So I guess this guy that screwed bob was not looking for a long term relationship >>
i would never strart out a long-term relationship by plunking down $15,000, would you???
<< <i> hey Dorkarl you like getting embroiled in these things, don't you, trying to be a contrarian?? with statements like the ones below BLAH BLAH BLAH >>
keets, interesting that you ramble on & on about my ethics, yet you will not answer the question in my scenario.
would you, or would you not, buy the $14,000 car?
keets, why is thinking different such a horrifying thing to you?
<< <i>Karnac predicts a very long thread. All the classic ingredients >>
clankeye, i fully expect to be dismembered again....
<< <i>Dorkkarl, Perhaps you can share your various actual and online (e.g., ebay) personalities with us so the forum members and dealers can know who you are and be extra "happy" when you come aroun asking to look at a coin. I'm sure that after all this, we' all love to venture into biz with you! >>
evp, i have no other online personalities. what you see (er read) is what you get
<< <i>Dorkkarl do you think it was fine for the buyer to have parkave pull the coin from sale at the show so parkave lost out on possibility of selling the coin to someone else? >>
yep. because what if you buy a coin, & 2 hours later decide to return it. do you have to pay the dealer back for the time the coin was not in the case? preposterous.
<< <i>Or do you think parkave should have kept the coin on the table for sale the whole show and sold it if someone offered then told the buyer it already sold when he contacted him later? >>
BINGO
<< <i>Please don't tell us you made this all up for a week or so - it's been too long since we've had a thread like this >>
lakesamman, are you trying to say you missed me?
<< <i>If I had agreed to a deal on the first car, I would pay the $15,000. Sometimes, the right thing is not the easiest thing. >>
russ, i don't believe you, but if it's true, then good for you. but for me, you don't agree to a deal until you pay up. THAT'S A DONE DEAL
again, i can't believe that you all fell for the trap bob set, making this appear to be an issue of ethics. IT IS NOT. bob screwed up by not having an agreement IN WRITING w/ his consigner.
a signature on flimsy piece of paper is NOT an obligation to do anything, unless that piece of paper is a contract. the buyer did nothing wrong whatsoever. he sought out a lower price, & he found it. if friend bob would have had his issues in order, he would have already had a contractual agreement w/the consignor to prevent this problem from happening.
why do you think you are given an out clause when you buy a new car or house? same thing.
for that matter, the buyer of bob's coin could have written the check, stepped away for 2 minutes, came back & returned the coin, then bought it at the $1000 discount a moment later. same difference.
again, not an issue of ethics. it's an issue of this dealer, bob, not having his paperwork in order.
<< <i>russ, i don't believe you, but if it's true, then good for you. but for me, you don't agree to a deal until you pay up. THAT'S A DONE DEAL >>
Karl,
It's really pretty sad that you feel that way. A deal is done when the two parties agree to the details of the transaction and close it. When they have a meeting of the minds. When they shake hands. When they say to each other "we have a deal".
I guess in your mind, you can reneg on a deal at any time as long as you haven't paid the bill. I'm surprised anybody with any sense would ever do business with you. I know I wouldn't.
<< <i>It's really pretty sad that you feel that way. A deal is done when the two parties agree to the details of the transaction and close it. When they have a meeting of the minds. When they shake hands. When they say to each other "we have a deal".
I guess in your mind, you can reneg on a deal at any time as long as you haven't paid the bill. I'm surprised anybody with any sense would ever do business with you. I know I wouldn't. >>
russ, here's the difference. YES, i believe you can reneg on a deal any time as long as you haven't paid. however, i never have done that, & i never plan to.
the difference is that i know what's reality, & would not judge someone else as being unethical for doing so. everyone assumes that because i defend this consumer's rights, that i am also defending his ethics. such is not the case.
He was walking the show with his daughter and had not brought his check book so I invoiced the coin to him and he signed the invoice and we shook hands. I naturally told the owner of the coin that he could write it up as sold.
Sounds to me like he had agreed to buy the coin. See above!
<< DorkKarl, it sounds like Bob was charging $1000 to sell a $15,500 coin >>
who cares? i'm a collector, & i'm in the hobby FOR ME. if you dealers can't get your contracts straight, it ain't my problem. like i said, i'll save $1000 any day, so long as it's not illegal.
<< <i>I would have a hard time doing business with you. >>
jim, no you wouldn't. see my reply to russ.
folks, some of you are just not getting it. in a thinly-disguised bid for sympathy, BOB says that this is "Simply a matter of ethics". that's what he titled this thread.
THAT IS NOT TRUE.
it is a matter of RIGHTS. you have the right to get a lower price. it may not be ethical, but that's not the consumer's problem - THAT'S BOB'S PROBLEM.
just because i (dorkkarl) reserve the RIGHT to back out of an invoice, does not mean it is in my ETHICS to do so.
I won't ramble on about the ethics or lack thereof in this scenario, there a plenty of other people here who are covering that, but I do have an observation on this deal.
No matter how you look at it, one must admit the problem at least had its genesis in the dealer telling the customer that the coin was on memo from dealer 'x' at a price of 'y' and that he would sell the coin for 'y+z'. Why was this subject even brought up in the course of doing the deal? Nothing could ever be gained from revealing this info and a whole lot could be lost. I don't know how many times a dealer has offered me a coin saying something like, 'I want 'x' for the coin and I'm in it 'y'. Usually I get the feeling that the dealer is trying to sell the coin by emphasizing (or desparately trying to convice me) how little he is making on the deal. It's an approach that I, as a customer, find quite annoying. What he is making, not making or losing on the deal is totally irrelevant - show me the coin and tell me what you want for it - save me the crappy story.
Dorkkarl, With all due respect, I think you are the one not getting it. A man is only as good as his word ( or in this case signature). By defending this guys actions YOU ARE defending his poor ethics. While legally he may have the right to back out, ethically it is wrong. Bobs post was not "" simply a matter of legalities". Even if Bobs papers were not in order ( which I believe they were) the buyer and dealer were wrong.
Wow.....I am truly amazed at what is posted here at times.....and I suspect I am not the only one shaking his or her head. Let me just say this, and I believe this is really important in business and in life. "Do unto others as you would have done to you." Think about it.
He was walking the show with his daughter and had not brought his check book so I invoiced the coin to him and he signed the invoice and we shook hands. I naturally told the owner of the coin that he could write it up as sold."
Jim: It is my understanding that the collector intends to post his own comment as soon as his application to become a new member is approved. Again, the collector did not believe he had a "done deal" whatsoever, but, if he did (I was not there and take Bob at his word as well), I do believe he has the character to honor it.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Dorkkarl, With all due respect, I think you are the one not getting it. A man is only as good as his word ( or in this case signature). By defending this guys actions YOU ARE defending his poor ethics. While legally he may have the right to back out, ethically it is wrong. >>
bustman, you gotta realize that i am NOT defending his actions - i am defending his RIGHT to take those actions. it is a subtle point, but critical to the issue, and something everyone's ignoring.
who are you to force your code of ethics on this un-nammed, unknown customer? how far have you walked in his shoes? do you really know his reasons for doing what he did? i think not, nor do i. so we cannot coherently judge his ethics, only his rights, as a consumer. ie. ethics is a moral system of values, but CANNOT be defined (kind of like "grades")... however, rights can be defined, have been defined, that's what a code of LAW is.
Perhaps some heartache and pain would be saved in future transactions if the dealer would remind a person in these types of situations (after an agreement is made) that this is a contract, an agreement between parties. That would give the buyer a chance to immediately back out without losing face or reputation and would provide some measure of recourse for the dealer.
<< <i>Abuell, I have had dealers tell me the coin I was about to buy was on memo. They did so to let me know once I buy it, its a done deal. >>
I didn't say that the problem began when he said that 'the coin was on memo' - the scenario laid out in the original post states, "He agreed to buy the coin for $16,500 after I shared my cost of $15,500 with him." It's obvious that the customer was able to trace the coin back to the first dealer and at that point knew what the first dealer was willing to sell it for. 'Loose lips sink ships' - That is the $1k lesson that we have here.
<< <i>I do believe he has the character to honor it. >>
If that is so, then I hope he will wire Bob $1,000 at his earliest convenience. That deal was done and anyone paying $100,000 per year on coins knows it. I'm quite sure both dealers know both deals were done.
I would absolutely agree that it was not in Bobs best interest to give any clue as to whom he had the coin on memo from. Big mistake. But if I were the buyer, I would still honor the original deal.
Someone had asked if I would buy a $15000 dollar coin as the first purchase to establishing a long term relationship with a new dealer... My answer is yes, I would, and I have. As long as the coin was everything I was looking for, and I knew of the dealers reputation, I have no problem with that. If I knew nothing about the dealer, I would ask others who would know.
coinlieutenant, i hope you recognize that the issue parkave brought up is not an issue of ethics, & that bob is using this forum as a way to drum up sympathy. he's bitter about losing a $15K sale, when in fact, the sale was lost because of his shortcomings in not having his consignment agreement in order IN WRITING.
diguising something as an "ethical" issue to drum support is wrong - according to MY code of ethics.
karl, help me out here, you made these two statements in the thread:
call me ethics-less then, but if i could save $1000 on a coin, far as i'm concerned, screw the dealer, i'll take the coin at 7% off, thank you very much
who cares? i'm a collector, & i'm in the hobby FOR ME. if you dealers can't get your contracts straight, it ain't my problem. like i said, i'll save $1000 any day, so long as it's not illegal.
Then later in another reply to this thread you state that you would never contemplate doing what the buyer did and have never done that. Are these statements not in conflict with each other?
The buyer was WRONG - He SIGNED an invoice agreeing to buy; that is no different than any other contract. There is no verbal wiggle room.
The original dealer was WRONG - He is experienced enough to know the customs and courtesies without an explict written contract between the two dealers.
I see no problem with Parkave being open about the coin being on consignment; the only thing in hindsight is that it probably isn't a good idea to say from who. In this case, if the buyer had already seen the coin on Ebay, then he would probably know who the current owner was anyway.
As far as to the comments on not carrying coins on consignment from others, how many dealers out there could afford to buy everything that they would like to display at a big show? Selling on consignment allows buyers the chance to see more coins than they could have otherwise.
Robert Getty - Lifetime project to complete the finest collection of 1872 dated coins.
"c'mon dudes, get real! tell me that when you decide it's time to plunk down $15,000 on something that you won't take a better price if you find it?"
After I've made a commitment to someone else? NO.
Once the words are out of my mouth it's done.
Lesson...be slow to speak, sign or extend your hand. I know that's not the legal requirement but that's what I was taught to live by and I think the world would be a better place if people lived up to their written and verbal commitments.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
<< <i>karl, help me out here, you made these two statements in the thread:
(((1))) call me ethics-less then, but if i could save $1000 on a coin, far as i'm concerned, screw the dealer, i'll take the coin at 7% off, thank you very much
(((2))) who cares? i'm a collector, & i'm in the hobby FOR ME. if you dealers can't get your contracts straight, it ain't my problem. like i said, i'll save $1000 any day, so long as it's not illegal.
(((3))) Then later in another reply to this thread you state that you would never contemplate doing what the buyer did and have never done that. Are these statements not in conflict with each other? >>
yes they appear in conflict because in (((1))), i am trying to speak from bob's customer's perspective.
ie, put yourself in the shoes of bob's customer. your traipsing around the bourse floor & find a coin for $15,000, then a few moments later, another dealer offers you , not an identical coin, but the same coin for $1000 less, YOU'LL BUY THE $14,000 coin.
i don't see anywhere in bob's scenario where "customer" was aware of any "backdoor" deals (to use bob's words) or consignment issues. all "customer" sees is that he can get the exact coin for $1000 less.
irishmike, you & i are privy to inside info. the way bob presented it, which is why i claim he's being deceitful in trying to drum up sympathy. if i was wandering around the bourse floor & saw the same coin at 2 different prices, i'd have no clue as to why or how that could happen, but i would buy the cheaper 1.
bob's consignment problems are of no concern to the customer. he's there to buy a coin, not solve bob's problems.
Not very ethical but isn't this the "fibre" of the coin business? Why is anyone surprised?
You have people who behave in less than ethical or honest ways when dealing with the public and even themselves. What happened to Parkave is not so unusual is it? Bob just happened to find out about it. How many have been cheated and did not know? Does anyone think this was the first time these guys acted this way?
Here we have an industry where people crack out coins for only one purpose. Some are coin doctors. Some talk of coins which don't even exist, sell them and take payment. Others knowingly sell counterfeit/cleaned/impaired coins and pretend they don't know. Major industry players who don't step up and crack down or speak up on the abuses for fear of retribution. I could go on but you get the point.
It is business as usual. It does not make it right but it is "normal" behavior given the above.
keets, interesting that you ramble on & on about my ethics, yet you will not answer the question in my scenario.
would you, or would you not, buy the $14,000 car?
keets, why is thinking different such a horrifying thing to you?
hey Karl
i'm not avoiding answering, i was out of the house for awhile. as to the car question, the key words in your scenario are agree on $15,000 which evidentally has more meaning to me and some other members than to you. that's alright, i guess. and thinking different isn't a horrifying thing to me. you just seem to get a charge out of it and your logic when explaining your different thinking sometimes turns into a droll rant. in short, you're different for the sake of being different, which is, well, different.
it would be different if you were claiming some kind of moral high ground.
ok keets, just for you, another way to put the scenario
you sign a contract w/ joes-ford to buy a car for $15,000. as w/ all such contracts, you have 3 days to back out. meanwhile, you find out that karls-ford has, not an identical car, but THAT EXACT CAR avaialable for $14,000.
would you cancel the $15,000 contract & save the $1,000 bucks? yes or no.
(note that i didn't set this up as a bitter poll - it's a simple question just for you)
One's reputation in coins is critical to buying and selling. This goes double for dealers. If you say you'll buy or sell something at a price the deal is complete when the other party agrees. There is no wiggle room or after the fact discount. There is no changing the terms or the price. To even attempt this is damaging to the reputation. The collector and the original dealer reneged. They did so at a loss to the dealer who had the coin on consignment and had added value by finding people who didn't want the coin. The buyer probably had no right to seek out the original seller and the original seller certainly had no right to negotiate a new deal once he was told it was sold.
It's possible the buyer didn't believe there was a completed deal (this can happen), but this would only largely absolve him it does nothing for the seller.
My name is David O’Brien, and I am the new owner of this coin. I have been collecting coins for years and began building registry sets 3 years ago, hence I chose the pen name to be registryset. My most recently completed set was the #1 Proof Liberty Nickel Set. Clicking on that will show you the other sets I have completed. A good fried of mine in the business, let me know what was going on here. Having never looked at these boards, he advised that I do so now. So, here I am.
It is amazing to me how 75+ posts can be made on one topic without ever considering that the facts may be distorted in some manner. Park Avenue may want cry the blues, but there is a lot more to this story which he is failing to disclose.
A few weeks ago, the coin in question was for sale on eBay for $13,500 starting bid and $15,000 Buy It Now. I had planned to bid at the last minute, but was called away on business and forgot. The next day I noticed and e-mailed the seller as the coin did not even generate 1 bid. I offered a lower amount, which he rejected. I then asked what he would accept and he said $13,500. I then said OK. He then came back and said a dealer offered him $15,000, so he could not sell me the coin. I said thanks and moved on, even though he offered me a price and I accepted.
I was then walking the floor at the ANA and stopped by the Park Ave table, he said he had a great coin for my set and he showed me the coin in question. I was shocked to see it, but did know a dealer bought it so I began telling him my eBay story. I asked him what he paid and he said $15,500. I thought that was interesting since I was told $15,000, but it was close enough so I moved on. I said what would you want for the coin, and he said $16,500. I said that is a lot considering I had a shot at it three weeks earlier at $13,500. So, I said I needed a day to think about it. He said do you want a coin, or do you want to think about it. I said I want a coin, but did not have check and still wanted to think about it. He said he would hold the coin if I would sign the receipt. I said yes and that I would return the next day. I called him back 3 hours later, said I thought about it and that I did not want the coin, the price was too high. He then said he already committed the coin and now revealed to me he really did not own it. He then said he was going to lose $500 if he gave the coin back. I apologized for the problem, but as you will see in the next paragraph, still hoped to do business with him.
In the meantime, while at his table that same day, he showed me two other coins in NGC holders. I said I was not interested unless they were in PCGS holders. I said if you crossed them, I would buy them. The next morning, well after we cancelled the deal on the first one, he called me to say that 1 had crossed. I went in that day and bought the coin. He said that gets him back what he would have made on the other coin, so I said great. This too was a very high end coin and at the time I had hoped to do more business with him in the future. We shook hands and moved on.
I then continued walking the floor. I was doing only a few rows per day as I only had roughly 2 hours each day to spend at the show. I then noticed a nice coin at a dealers table and said I would like to see it. He asked what I collected and I told him. He said he had a great coin to show me, but it was out on consignment. I said I would come back. (Keep in mind; this is well after I concluded both transactions with Park Ave. Yet another distorted fact.) After hearing what the coin was, I put two and two together and realized that this was the same dealer who was selling it on eBay three weeks prior. The same one that agreed to sell it to me for $13,500 and said he had sold it for $15,000. But, yet he still had the coin. Either way, I was still interested, so I pursued it. I said how much, he said $15,000. I said I would check back later when he got the coin back. (Of course in my mind I quickly realized I was not told the truth by anyone here, both dealers had misrepresented the facts. I was not even sure I wanted it anymore.)
I came back later and was quickly told that they could not sell me the coin. That I did not tell them I had spoken with the other dealer who had it on consignment. I said no problem, but that no one had been truthful with me from the beginning. I then looked at another coin in their case and the other dealer in the booth began a discussion with me. He then said he would sell me the coin if I was interested. I said I was, but what was the price? He said it would have to be $15,500. I said I thought we discussed $15,000. I then remembered Park Ave saying that they were going to lose $500, so I said is the extra $500 for that? Point blank, the dealer said I do not want to lie to you, so I cannot answer your question. At this point I was so frustrated with how I was treated by both dealers, I was wondering if the whole industry was this way. Though having dealt with some VERY HONEST dealers for quite some time in Pinnacle and Wondercoin, I just assumed the best and that this was just a big misunderstanding. So, I wanted to put this whole thing behind everyone, and I did still want the coin. I then proceeded to buy the coin at the $15,500. This way the coin is sold, and everyone is a winner, and we can all move on.
Apparently, not everyone wants to move on and will say anything to provide fodder for this board. As you can see, this is my first post, and the reason this thread even exists should point out the reason why.
so are we now going to manipulate the facts so that you get an answer which is satisfactory to you?? this one is easy, too. once i signed the contract with whoever it is that i'm buying the car from, joe, al, big-al, benny, bob or marvin, it may sound peculiar, but i would stop looking for a car!! this is kind of a pertinent topic. i actually took a truck to my mechanics today for his apprisal and i'm going to talk with the owner-----Bob, really-----tomorrow after he gets home from work. if we agree on a price tomorrow, i will go to the bank first thing Friday morning so they can draw up the cashiers check. oh yeah, handshake deal karl. and i'll not be out looking at other cars after we shake.
so, in answer to your question: you sign a contract w/ joes-ford to buy a car for $15,000. as w/ all such contracts, you have 3 days to back out. meanwhile, you find out that karls-ford has, not an identical car, but THAT EXACT CAR avaialable for $14,000.
would you cancel the $15,000 contract & save the $1,000 bucks? yes or no.
..........i would say no, based on the fact that i wouldn't be looking after i had agreed. please re-phrase the question in some other form. i'm here with baited breath, on the edge of my seat, wanting to agree with you so you can be right. go ahead, karl, re-phrase away.
hey, here you go. i'll start you off: What if........................................
Comments
if it's too expensive, then i didn't really want it, so i pass. that simple.
K S
I agree there is some value added using a realtor, but it sure seems to be at an unreasonable cost.
I'm using my own situation. After using a dealer my house sold to the very first people to see the house - who made a full-price offer. The realtor's total time invested was probably about 4-5 hours and her commision was nearly $4,000. The people had been waiting for the house to go up for sale for a long time.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Dorkkarl,
Thats a very different scenario. Most people buy a car once every three to six or so years. So who really cares if there is one upset car salesman.
If you want to establish any kind of ongoing relationship with a dealer, don't reneg on a done deal. So I guess this guy that screwed bob was not looking for a long term relationship.
you like getting embroiled in these things, don't you, trying to be a contrarian?? with statements like the ones below, i can understand why you keep your identity shrouded.
call me ethics-less then, but if i could save $1000 on a coin, far as i'm concerned, screw the dealer, i'll take the coin at 7% off, thank you very much
sorry coinguy1, but like bob pointed out, i'm a true retail buyer, & i don't care about the mickey-mouse memo deals dealers play w/ 1 another or who strokes who, if i can save $1000, what right do you have to stop me? this is the free-market system at it's best.
who cares? i'm a collector, & i'm in the hobby FOR ME. if you dealers can't get your contracts straight, it ain't my problem. like i said, i'll save $1000 any day, so long as it's not illegal.
herein lies the crux of the buyers ethical shortcoming: i am looking at it from a retail customer (which i am) perspective. it's cut & dried - if 2 people offer me a coin, & 1 offers it to me for $1000 off, who am i gonna buy from?
evidentally, the second person never offered to sell, but the buyer made him an offer to buy, and that's where his culpability lies. i certainly begrudge noone for looking out for themselves and getting the best deal they can. if you are of the mindset that this type of behavior, if it ocurred as outlined, is proper and a sound way to operate, then it is good for you to hide your identity.
hey parkave
my local dealer has collectors do silly things like this and he just bides his time to extract his measure of justice. that's really the only alternative besides shutting them down. just get back piece-meal and they'll never even know it. heck, i imagine that already neither of them realizes what they've done. that's the twist-----if you have no ethical standard, you don't even realize when you've screwed the pooch.
al h.
Clankeye
Dan
Perhaps you can share your various actual and online (e.g., ebay) personalities with us so the forum members and dealers can know who you are and be extra "happy" when you come aroun asking to look at a coin.
I'm sure that after all this, we' all love to venture into biz with you!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Or do you think parkave should have kept the coin on the table for sale the whole show and sold it if someone offered then told the buyer it already sold when he contacted him later?
If that would have happened then this thread might from the buyer complaining about how the dealer sold a coin he had on hold to someone else.
EVP - I heard a rumor on the bourse floor your working for Legend. Is that true??
<< <i>Karnac predicts a very long thread. All the classic ingredients.
Clankeye >>
Can I become the next lawyer in Coinalot?
<< <i>say you decide to buy a brand-new station wagon at joe's-fords, & agree on $15,000. joe tells you he doesn't have your color in stock, so he's gonna get 1 sent over from al's-ford. later that day, you go by al's-ford, & big al offers it to you at $14,000
TELL ME HONESTLY that you wouldn't buy the $14,000 car. >>
If I had agreed to a deal on the first car, I would pay the $15,000. Sometimes, the right thing is not the easiest thing.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>So I guess this guy that screwed bob was not looking for a long term relationship >>
i would never strart out a long-term relationship by plunking down $15,000, would you???
<< <i> hey Dorkarl you like getting embroiled in these things, don't you, trying to be a contrarian?? with statements like the ones below BLAH BLAH BLAH >>
keets, interesting that you ramble on & on about my ethics, yet you will not answer the question in my scenario.
would you, or would you not, buy the $14,000 car?
keets, why is thinking different such a horrifying thing to you?
<< <i>Karnac predicts a very long thread. All the classic ingredients >>
clankeye, i fully expect to be dismembered again....
<< <i>Dorkkarl, Perhaps you can share your various actual and online (e.g., ebay) personalities with us so the forum members and dealers can know who you are and be extra "happy" when you come aroun asking to look at a coin. I'm sure that after all this, we' all love to venture into biz with you! >>
evp, i have no other online personalities. what you see (er read) is what you get
<< <i>Dorkkarl do you think it was fine for the buyer to have parkave pull the coin from sale at the show so parkave lost out on possibility of selling the coin to someone else? >>
yep. because what if you buy a coin, & 2 hours later decide to return it. do you have to pay the dealer back for the time the coin was not in the case? preposterous.
<< <i>Or do you think parkave should have kept the coin on the table for sale the whole show and sold it if someone offered then told the buyer it already sold when he contacted him later? >>
BINGO
<< <i>Please don't tell us you made this all up for a week or so - it's been too long since we've had a thread like this >>
lakesamman, are you trying to say you missed me?
<< <i>If I had agreed to a deal on the first car, I would pay the $15,000. Sometimes, the right thing is not the easiest thing. >>
russ, i don't believe you, but if it's true, then good for you. but for me, you don't agree to a deal until you pay up. THAT'S A DONE DEAL
again, i can't believe that you all fell for the trap bob set, making this appear to be an issue of ethics. IT IS NOT. bob screwed up by not having an agreement IN WRITING w/ his consigner.
a signature on flimsy piece of paper is NOT an obligation to do anything, unless that piece of paper is a contract. the buyer did nothing wrong whatsoever. he sought out a lower price, & he found it. if friend bob would have had his issues in order, he would have already had a contractual agreement w/the consignor to prevent this problem from happening.
why do you think you are given an out clause when you buy a new car or house? same thing.
for that matter, the buyer of bob's coin could have written the check, stepped away for 2 minutes, came back & returned the coin, then bought it at the $1000 discount a moment later. same difference.
again, not an issue of ethics. it's an issue of this dealer, bob, not having his paperwork in order.
<< <i>russ, i don't believe you, but if it's true, then good for you. but for me, you don't agree to a deal until you pay up. THAT'S A DONE DEAL >>
Karl,
It's really pretty sad that you feel that way. A deal is done when the two parties agree to the details of the transaction and close it. When they have a meeting of the minds. When they shake hands. When they say to each other "we have a deal".
I guess in your mind, you can reneg on a deal at any time as long as you haven't paid the bill. I'm surprised anybody with any sense would ever do business with you. I know I wouldn't.
Russ, NCNE
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
<< <i>It's really pretty sad that you feel that way. A deal is done when the two parties agree to the details of the transaction and close it. When they have a meeting of the minds. When they shake hands. When they say to each other "we have a deal".
I guess in your mind, you can reneg on a deal at any time as long as you haven't paid the bill. I'm surprised anybody with any sense would ever do business with you. I know I wouldn't. >>
russ, here's the difference. YES, i believe you can reneg on a deal any time as long as you haven't paid. however, i never have done that, & i never plan to.
the difference is that i know what's reality, & would not judge someone else as being unethical for doing so. everyone assumes that because i defend this consumer's rights, that i am also defending his ethics. such is not the case.
K S
He was walking the show with his daughter and had not brought his check book so I invoiced the coin to him and he signed the invoice and we shook hands. I naturally told the owner of the coin that he could write it up as sold.
Sounds to me like he had agreed to buy the coin. See above!
<< DorkKarl, it sounds like Bob was charging $1000 to sell a $15,500 coin >>
who cares? i'm a collector, & i'm in the hobby FOR ME. if you dealers can't get your contracts straight, it ain't my problem. like i said, i'll save $1000 any day, so long as it's not illegal.
K S
Dorkkarl
I would have a hard time doing business with you.
Jim
<< <i>I would have a hard time doing business with you. >>
jim, no you wouldn't. see my reply to russ.
folks, some of you are just not getting it. in a thinly-disguised bid for sympathy, BOB says that this is "Simply a matter of ethics". that's what he titled this thread.
THAT IS NOT TRUE.
it is a matter of RIGHTS. you have the right to get a lower price. it may not be ethical, but that's not the consumer's problem - THAT'S BOB'S PROBLEM.
just because i (dorkkarl) reserve the RIGHT to back out of an invoice, does not mean it is in my ETHICS to do so.
K S
No, first he (the collector) needs to get some ethics.
GSAGUY
No matter how you look at it, one must admit the problem at least had its genesis in the dealer telling the customer that the coin was on memo from dealer 'x' at a price of 'y' and that he would sell the coin for 'y+z'. Why was this subject even brought up in the course of doing the deal? Nothing could ever be gained from revealing this info and a whole lot could be lost. I don't know how many times a dealer has offered me a coin saying something like, 'I want 'x' for the coin and I'm in it 'y'. Usually I get the feeling that the dealer is trying to sell the coin by emphasizing (or desparately trying to convice me) how little he is making on the deal. It's an approach that I, as a customer, find quite annoying. What he is making, not making or losing on the deal is totally irrelevant - show me the coin and tell me what you want for it - save me the crappy story.
what goes round comes round
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
With all due respect, I think you are the one not getting it. A man is only as good as his word ( or in this case signature). By defending this guys actions YOU ARE defending his poor ethics. While legally he may have the right to back out, ethically it is wrong. Bobs post was not "" simply a matter of legalities". Even if Bobs papers were not in order ( which I believe they were) the buyer and dealer were wrong.
I have had dealers tell me the coin I was about to buy was on memo. They did so to let me know once I buy it, its a done deal.
Mike Printz
Larry Whitlow, Ltd.
Web Site
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
He was walking the show with his daughter and had not brought his check book so I invoiced the coin to him and he signed the invoice and we shook hands. I naturally told the owner of the coin that he could write it up as sold."
Jim: It is my understanding that the collector intends to post his own comment as soon as his application to become a new member is approved. Again, the collector did not believe he had a "done deal" whatsoever, but, if he did (I was not there and take Bob at his word as well), I do believe he has the character to honor it.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Dorkkarl, With all due respect, I think you are the one not getting it. A man is only as good as his word ( or in this case signature). By defending this guys actions YOU ARE defending his poor ethics. While legally he may have the right to back out, ethically it is wrong. >>
bustman, you gotta realize that i am NOT defending his actions - i am defending his RIGHT to take those actions. it is a subtle point, but critical to the issue, and something everyone's ignoring.
who are you to force your code of ethics on this un-nammed, unknown customer? how far have you walked in his shoes? do you really know his reasons for doing what he did? i think not, nor do i. so we cannot coherently judge his ethics, only his rights, as a consumer. ie. ethics is a moral system of values, but CANNOT be defined (kind of like "grades")... however, rights can be defined, have been defined, that's what a code of LAW is.
K S
Neil
<< <i>Abuell,
I have had dealers tell me the coin I was about to buy was on memo. They did so to let me know once I buy it, its a done deal. >>
I didn't say that the problem began when he said that 'the coin was on memo' - the scenario laid out in the original post states, "He agreed to buy the coin for $16,500 after I shared my cost of $15,500 with him." It's obvious that the customer was able to trace the coin back to the first dealer and at that point knew what the first dealer was willing to sell it for. 'Loose lips sink ships' - That is the $1k lesson that we have here.
<< <i>I do believe he has the character to honor it. >>
If that is so, then I hope he will wire Bob $1,000 at his earliest convenience. That deal was done and anyone paying $100,000 per year on coins knows it. I'm quite sure both dealers know both deals were done.
K S
Yes EVP is working for Legend, his second user name here on the forum is LegendSteve.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
But if I were the buyer, I would still honor the original deal.
Someone had asked if I would buy a $15000 dollar coin as the first purchase to establishing a long term relationship with a new dealer... My answer is yes, I would, and I have. As long as the coin was everything I was looking for, and I knew of the dealers reputation, I have no problem with that. If I knew nothing about the dealer, I would ask others who would know.
K S
Let me say this.... The community of dealers/collectors is farily small. Watch what you say here. A reputation is a very tough thing to change.
You talk about the difference between rights and ethics, there is a difference, you are right. Ethics are always the higher standard however.
Like John said, " a man is only as good as his word".
Also, someone else said the easy litmus test. "Do unto others as you would have done to you."
Dont sit here and play lawyer. Nobody likes lawyers much when they start doing their loopholes and rights speeches.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
diguising something as an "ethical" issue to drum support is wrong - according to MY code of ethics.
K S
call me ethics-less then, but if i could save $1000 on a coin, far as i'm concerned, screw the dealer, i'll take the coin at 7% off, thank you very much
who cares? i'm a collector, & i'm in the hobby FOR ME. if you dealers can't get your contracts straight, it ain't my problem. like i said, i'll save $1000 any day, so long as it's not illegal.
Then later in another reply to this thread you state that you would never contemplate doing what the buyer did and have never done that. Are these statements not in conflict with each other?
I would have honored the deal. If you get a rep for reneging then that is the kind of respect you will command in the market.
Deals dont have to be done on paper to be done.
Spirit vs. letter.
We can agree to disagree.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
no different than any other contract. There is no verbal wiggle room.
The original dealer was WRONG - He is experienced enough to know the
customs and courtesies without an explict written contract between the
two dealers.
I see no problem with Parkave being open about the coin being on
consignment; the only thing in hindsight is that it probably isn't a good
idea to say from who. In this case, if the buyer had already seen the coin
on Ebay, then he would probably know who the current owner was anyway.
As far as to the comments on not carrying coins on consignment from others,
how many dealers out there could afford to buy everything that they would
like to display at a big show? Selling on consignment allows buyers the
chance to see more coins than they could have otherwise.
After I've made a commitment to someone else? NO.
Once the words are out of my mouth it's done.
Lesson...be slow to speak, sign or extend your hand. I know that's not the legal requirement but that's what I was taught to live by and I think the world would be a better place if people lived up to their written and verbal commitments.
<< <i>karl, help me out here, you made these two statements in the thread:
(((1))) call me ethics-less then, but if i could save $1000 on a coin, far as i'm concerned, screw the dealer, i'll take the coin at 7% off, thank you very much
(((2))) who cares? i'm a collector, & i'm in the hobby FOR ME. if you dealers can't get your contracts straight, it ain't my problem. like i said, i'll save $1000 any day, so long as it's not illegal.
(((3))) Then later in another reply to this thread you state that you would never contemplate doing what the buyer did and have never done that. Are these statements not in conflict with each other? >>
yes they appear in conflict because in (((1))), i am trying to speak from bob's customer's perspective.
ie, put yourself in the shoes of bob's customer. your traipsing around the bourse floor & find a coin for $15,000, then a few moments later, another dealer offers you , not an identical coin, but the same coin for $1000 less, YOU'LL BUY THE $14,000 coin.
i don't see anywhere in bob's scenario where "customer" was aware of any "backdoor" deals (to use bob's words) or consignment issues. all "customer" sees is that he can get the exact coin for $1000 less.
irishmike, you & i are privy to inside info. the way bob presented it, which is why i claim he's being deceitful in trying to drum up sympathy. if i was wandering around the bourse floor & saw the same coin at 2 different prices, i'd have no clue as to why or how that could happen, but i would buy the cheaper 1.
bob's consignment problems are of no concern to the customer. he's there to buy a coin, not solve bob's problems.
K S
You have people who behave in less than ethical or honest ways when dealing with the public and even themselves. What happened to Parkave is not so unusual is it? Bob just happened to find out about it. How many have been cheated and did not know? Does anyone think this was the first time these guys acted this way?
Here we have an industry where people crack out coins for only one purpose. Some are coin doctors. Some talk of coins which don't even exist, sell them and take payment. Others knowingly sell counterfeit/cleaned/impaired coins and pretend they don't know. Major industry players who don't step up and crack down or speak up on the abuses for fear of retribution. I could go on but you get the point.
It is business as usual. It does not make it right but it is "normal" behavior given the above.
K S
<< <i>Here we have an industry where people crack out coins for only one purpose. Some are coin doctors >>
. ahem, ohbaby, what would that one purpose be???
K S
would you, or would you not, buy the $14,000 car?
keets, why is thinking different such a horrifying thing to you?
hey Karl
i'm not avoiding answering, i was out of the house for awhile. as to the car question, the key words in your scenario are agree on $15,000 which evidentally has more meaning to me and some other members than to you. that's alright, i guess. and thinking different isn't a horrifying thing to me. you just seem to get a charge out of it and your logic when explaining your different thinking sometimes turns into a droll rant. in short, you're different for the sake of being different, which is, well, different.
it would be different if you were claiming some kind of moral high ground.
al h.
you sign a contract w/ joes-ford to buy a car for $15,000. as w/ all such contracts, you have 3 days to back out. meanwhile, you find out that karls-ford has, not an identical car, but THAT EXACT CAR avaialable for $14,000.
would you cancel the $15,000 contract & save the $1,000 bucks? yes or no.
(note that i didn't set this up as a bitter poll - it's a simple question just for you)
K S
If you say you'll buy or sell something at a price the deal is complete when the other
party agrees. There is no wiggle room or after the fact discount. There is no changing
the terms or the price. To even attempt this is damaging to the reputation. The collector
and the original dealer reneged. They did so at a loss to the dealer who had the coin on
consignment and had added value by finding people who didn't want the coin. The buyer
probably had no right to seek out the original seller and the original seller certainly had
no right to negotiate a new deal once he was told it was sold.
It's possible the buyer didn't believe there was a completed deal (this can happen), but
this would only largely absolve him it does nothing for the seller.
It is amazing to me how 75+ posts can be made on one topic without ever considering that the facts may be distorted in some manner. Park Avenue may want cry the blues, but there is a lot more to this story which he is failing to disclose.
A few weeks ago, the coin in question was for sale on eBay for $13,500 starting bid and $15,000 Buy It Now. I had planned to bid at the last minute, but was called away on business and forgot. The next day I noticed and e-mailed the seller as the coin did not even generate 1 bid. I offered a lower amount, which he rejected. I then asked what he would accept and he said $13,500. I then said OK. He then came back and said a dealer offered him $15,000, so he could not sell me the coin. I said thanks and moved on, even though he offered me a price and I accepted.
I was then walking the floor at the ANA and stopped by the Park Ave table, he said he had a great coin for my set and he showed me the coin in question. I was shocked to see it, but did know a dealer bought it so I began telling him my eBay story. I asked him what he paid and he said $15,500. I thought that was interesting since I was told $15,000, but it was close enough so I moved on. I said what would you want for the coin, and he said $16,500. I said that is a lot considering I had a shot at it three weeks earlier at $13,500. So, I said I needed a day to think about it. He said do you want a coin, or do you want to think about it. I said I want a coin, but did not have check and still wanted to think about it. He said he would hold the coin if I would sign the receipt. I said yes and that I would return the next day. I called him back 3 hours later, said I thought about it and that I did not want the coin, the price was too high. He then said he already committed the coin and now revealed to me he really did not own it. He then said he was going to lose $500 if he gave the coin back. I apologized for the problem, but as you will see in the next paragraph, still hoped to do business with him.
In the meantime, while at his table that same day, he showed me two other coins in NGC holders. I said I was not interested unless they were in PCGS holders. I said if you crossed them, I would buy them. The next morning, well after we cancelled the deal on the first one, he called me to say that 1 had crossed. I went in that day and bought the coin. He said that gets him back what he would have made on the other coin, so I said great. This too was a very high end coin and at the time I had hoped to do more business with him in the future. We shook hands and moved on.
I then continued walking the floor. I was doing only a few rows per day as I only had roughly 2 hours each day to spend at the show. I then noticed a nice coin at a dealers table and said I would like to see it. He asked what I collected and I told him. He said he had a great coin to show me, but it was out on consignment. I said I would come back. (Keep in mind; this is well after I concluded both transactions with Park Ave. Yet another distorted fact.) After hearing what the coin was, I put two and two together and realized that this was the same dealer who was selling it on eBay three weeks prior. The same one that agreed to sell it to me for $13,500 and said he had sold it for $15,000. But, yet he still had the coin. Either way, I was still interested, so I pursued it. I said how much, he said $15,000. I said I would check back later when he got the coin back. (Of course in my mind I quickly realized I was not told the truth by anyone here, both dealers had misrepresented the facts. I was not even sure I wanted it anymore.)
I came back later and was quickly told that they could not sell me the coin. That I did not tell them I had spoken with the other dealer who had it on consignment. I said no problem, but that no one had been truthful with me from the beginning. I then looked at another coin in their case and the other dealer in the booth began a discussion with me. He then said he would sell me the coin if I was interested. I said I was, but what was the price? He said it would have to be $15,500. I said I thought we discussed $15,000. I then remembered Park Ave saying that they were going to lose $500, so I said is the extra $500 for that? Point blank, the dealer said I do not want to lie to you, so I cannot answer your question. At this point I was so frustrated with how I was treated by both dealers, I was wondering if the whole industry was this way. Though having dealt with some VERY HONEST dealers for quite some time in Pinnacle and Wondercoin, I just assumed the best and that this was just a big misunderstanding. So, I wanted to put this whole thing behind everyone, and I did still want the coin. I then proceeded to buy the coin at the $15,500. This way the coin is sold, and everyone is a winner, and we can all move on.
Apparently, not everyone wants to move on and will say anything to provide fodder for this board. As you can see, this is my first post, and the reason this thread even exists should point out the reason why.
so are we now going to manipulate the facts so that you get an answer which is satisfactory to you?? this one is easy, too. once i signed the contract with whoever it is that i'm buying the car from, joe, al, big-al, benny, bob or marvin, it may sound peculiar, but i would stop looking for a car!! this is kind of a pertinent topic. i actually took a truck to my mechanics today for his apprisal and i'm going to talk with the owner-----Bob, really-----tomorrow after he gets home from work. if we agree on a price tomorrow, i will go to the bank first thing Friday morning so they can draw up the cashiers check. oh yeah, handshake deal karl. and i'll not be out looking at other cars after we shake.
so, in answer to your question: you sign a contract w/ joes-ford to buy a car for $15,000. as w/ all such contracts, you have 3 days to back out. meanwhile, you find out that karls-ford has, not an identical car, but THAT EXACT CAR avaialable for $14,000.
would you cancel the $15,000 contract & save the $1,000 bucks? yes or no.
..........i would say no, based on the fact that i wouldn't be looking after i had agreed. please re-phrase the question in some other form. i'm here with baited breath, on the edge of my seat, wanting to agree with you so you can be right. go ahead, karl, re-phrase away.
hey, here you go. i'll start you off: What if........................................
al h.