i rarely sell a coin. but when i do, yes, i do care about how much that coin will sell for. and if i make a profit, i will not donate it to the nearest church...sorry for being honest.
you said >> do you like the COIN or what's printed on the holder? >> and i say, i love the coin and want the label to show the true grade.
you said >> bengals seems to imply that his coins are not being graded correctly because he's not paying pcgs enough (using "economy") and thinks that maybe a higher a level of service will "work" better than repeated resubmissions to get the coins into their "correct" holders. << and I agree
you said >> bengals should consider the possibility that the coins just aren't the grades he thinks they are. >> and i say, that could be the case in some instances.
i plan on posting some pictures... even though, like someone said, it is hard to grade them that way.
<< <i>funny, how you guys assume that i'm wrong and they are right... could it be that they've made a mistake? noooo; but how about the 1942 d mercury dime that i have in my collection which was labeled as 1942 (without the d) ... >>
Have you ever written anything on a computer and had one typographical error? I write quite a lot, and mistakes get by me, just as they do everyone. That's why I have outsiders edit my papers. NGC has made errors, as have ANACS and basically every other grading service out there...
And as far as I know, they'll reholder those for free. Even the best make mistakes- I've caught plenty of typos in books, magazines, etc. with huge editing staff and professional writers.
I must have seen this sort of thread at least 50 times.
1) Grading services make mistakes. About 10% of coins I see are overgraded; they always appear at major auctions and shows because knowledgeable people know this, they bought them cheap, and are trying to unload them on ignorant collectors.
2) Learn how to grade coins before claiming that a coin was graded incorrectly. IMO, Morgans and Walkers are among the easiest coins to grade as far as a particular series of coins goes. You don't need a loupe to grade these coins. These coins are not my area of expertise, and I can grade them more or less adequately.
3) Get some books before buying coins, and look at as many coins as you can until you feel that you really know how to grade them. Look at a lot of, say Morgans in 4 graded by NGC & compare them with those 4s graded by PCGS. Notice trends. If you can't tell, say, what's a nice MS 65 from a just made it 65, do not buy the coin.
Anyone who knows a little bit about Morgans knows that New Orleans coins are graded differently than Philadelphia coins and that Carson City $s also have their own set of standards.
And if you know a fair amount about a series, you'll realize that different standards apply to different years. Ie., expect lack of head detail in an 1887 P Dime in pretty much any grade, while this would not be acceptable with an 1886 P Dime.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Let's look at this empirically. PCGS has certified about 1 Million Morgans, you own 250. PCGS hires the best graders in the industry available to them with years and years of experience grading coins, you are pretty new at this. PCGS uses 3 opinions for each coin, you are making a singular judgement that affects the value of the coins you own.
The data tells me that your arguement that PCGS has undergraded all your coins submitted tells me that you are not familar with the PCGS standard for each of those individual coins. While I am not a Morgan collector, I do know that the standards vary by date and Mint.
I would say post a couple of pictures and let some of the more knowledgable folks here give an opinion. I would particularly be interested in what Dragon thinks of your coins.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
deepcoin, i never said that they undergraded ALL of my coins, but they certainly have more than one. and yes, i will post some pictures once i get a hold of my sister's sony cyber-shot camera... this camera takes very good pictures.
btw, one of the coins i sent was an 1916-p mercury. it was graded ms64-fb. since you know alot about mercury dimes, i'll post a picture of this coin and, hopefully, get your opinion on it.
My sole comment without siding one way or the other:
bengals, you said "... have other coins that i've submitted that came back less than they should (always by one point). i think that is because i used the economy service.
There you have. Always by one point. Maybe you are one point off.
<< <i>BOGUS! I am just a little tiny collector and I get treated just fine. >>
As do I. PCGS certainly isn't perfect, but whenever I have had a problem, they've been more than willing to seek a solution. Doesn't always work out the way I'd like, but than I'm not always right. Sometimes, what I thought was PCGS's screwup, was [SHOCK] really my own.
TO be honest, you might want to take a much closer look at the coins your questioning. PCGS does make mistakes, but normally there quite consistant and right on target. As far as service, it does not matter whether you send in one day express or economy, they will grade it the same. Just the turn around time is the difference.
I have sent a few pieces in recently by both two day , and regular, and they have come back right on target as to what I thought they would grade, in one case a grade higher. This included two Morgans.
Take a look again, looking at not only the contact marks, but strike, surface luster breaks, any other mentionable surface distractions, etc, then If you feel you were shafted, send it in for the so-called review.
The 1882 with the alleged O/S mm is worth $300 in 62 & 3x that in 63, maybe that is the cause for bengals' disgruntleness. Especially if he bought it raw from a dealer as a 63. He could have a borderliner that could go either way so if he feels so strongly about he should resubmit it using the Regrade Service because all he has to lose is $20 but has $600 worth of instant value to gain. But under no circumstances should he crack it out of the slab himself because once he has removed it from the holder all bets are off. I guess the alleged 82 O/S is the reason for this thread?
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
PCGS undergrades everything. It relates to the FTC charges from the late '80s! They don't want to get caught with over-inflating coin grades again for benefit of the select few!! Try to get a 70 through them and those that do, wouldn't you love to know their names!!!
HEAD TUCKED AND ROLLING ALONG ENJOYING THE VIEW! [Most people I know!]
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!! Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
so far i've sent 39 coins to pcgs to have graded. out of these 39 coins, 4 were blatantly undergraded by 1 point, and about 3 were between two grades and of course received the lesser one. the rest were properly graded. and to be honest, one came back at a higher grade than i expected.
<< <i>out of these 39 coins, 4 were blatantly undergraded by 1 point, and about 3 were between two grades and of course received the lesser one. the rest were properly graded. and to be honest, one came back at a higher grade than i expected. >>
Okay, is it just me, or is anyone else now wondering what the hell he was complaining about? Out of a submission of 39 coins, four coins are a point different than you expected, one comes back higher than expected and the rest were right on?
how many times have i said it? only to be laughed at?
pcgs does not stand behind their grading standards. pcgs offers you a 50% guarantee, because they will only guarantee against OVERgraded coins. they will not guarantee against UNDERgraded coins. to put it bluntly, it is a lie to make the statement "pcgs stands behind their grades" (all true for ngc, anacs, icg as well).
the kicker is, you lose just as much when your coins are undergraded as when they are overgraded.
why is this so hard for some to understand (or accept)?
My main problem with PCGS and NGC is their lack of consistency. If all coins were graded the same, I could not complain when my coins come back with lower grades than I expected. But when I see coins that are equal to lower quality than my coins in certain holders, it get under my skin too, bengals.
Recently I had a condition census large cent come back in a body bag from both services. OK, my coin is not perfect, but then I see a coin from the same era in an NGC EF-45 holder, that is so badly scratched over 100% of the surface that made me wonder how it got into ANY legitimate holder. And to top it off some corrosion had been removed from the reverse. The reason? A very famous collector it owned at one time, and perhaps a major dealer sent it in, so it gets graded. What a crock! And it’s not the first time I’ve seen that.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Okay, is it just me, or is anyone else now wondering what the hell he was complaining about? Out of a submission of 39 coins, four coins are a point different than you expected, one comes back higher than expected and the rest were right on?
No doubt!!!!!!!! When the Benson coins were graded by PCGS the first time he probably would have loved to have your results as far more coins were undergraded only to be upgraded when submitted after the auction. The way you talked I thought the majority of your coins were undergraded in your opinion, having only 10% less then you thought is doing pretty good now a days.
Sometimes I just want to pound my head into the wall until I lose consciousness, and surrender into the purple fog bank of eternal... blissful... sleep.
I have submitted about 2 dozen coins to PCGS. About a dozen coins have been completed. I agree with all of the grades assigned because, A) I see the flaws, I am familiar with the grading standards utilized by PCGS, and 3) I realize that if I don't agree with the grade on a coin, it's a subjective matter. I can either go across the street or resubmit and see what happens (if this does happen on a substantial coin, I'll get three "expert" opinions and post the pics on the boards here before sending it off for review). Take a look at how many different grades people on this board guess when doing a "guess the grade" post. If grading were as easy as some people think it is, there wouldn't be so much discussion on the topic. If you are so concerned with getting the "grades you deserve", then send em to ICG or ACG and I am sure they will be happy to accomodate you.
PS ~ there was a mechanical error on my order that arrived yesterday. Mailed the three mistakes back today. No need to get out the David Hall voodoo doll or get emotional. Mistakes happen when you are under the gun and from what I have seen, PCGS takes care of submitters small or large, unless they are named Greg Marguli...
I certainly have not submitted thousands or even hundreds of coins to PCGS. I have submitted a few. Of the ones I have submitted, here are the facts... 1) I have never received a grade higher than expected. 2) I have received a few uncirculated coins (mostly Morgans) back at AU-58. PCGS seems to have a unique ability to find the smallest amount of wear where other coin grading services do not (as referenced by the latest Coin World poll). 3) The rest were either exactly what I expected or one point lower. So, the final conclusion is that PCGS and I do not always agree on a grade, but I can say that about most other graders. Grading is so subjective that these debates will rage on forever.
I have also submitted coins to be graded by PCI (mostly circulated Morgans of lower value). Of the ones I have submitted, here are the facts... 1) I have never received a grade higher than expected... Sound familiar? 2) The rest were either exactly what I expected or one point (or tier) lower. So, the final conclusion is that PCI and I do not always agree on a grade... Sound familiar?
Final final conclusion is that I need more practice in grading... Go figure... That is why I just bought a microscope and more coins (Morgans) of different certified grades (by nearly every certification company) to help me become better at grading. It is all about the learning isn't it? I think I am a pretty good grader, but every coin is different and every grader is different.
At the end of the day, if I am trying to sell one of my coins (Morgans) and the buyer and I can agree on the grade, then if it happens to agree with the certification on the slab then that is great.
Most of my Morgans are PCGS, but I own NGC, ICG, ANACS, NTC, PCI, SEGS and even one ANA (really). I love the coins in my collection and can study them for hours. Do I agree with the grades on each slab? Of course I do, that is why I bought the them. Does that mean that PCGS will agree with me if I ever send any of them in for a cross-over? Highly unlikely based on past history. I do not fault PCGS. I cannot say for sure they use the same yard stick for my coins as they do for big dealer, but I hope they do.
P.S. How do you veteran forum members get the cool icons for your symbol. I would prefer to use my favorite Morgan from my collection as my icon instead of the Oakland Raiders.
<< <i>P.S. How do you veteran forum members get the cool icons for your symbol. I would prefer to use my favorite Morgan from my collection as my icon instead of the Oakland Raiders. >>
Prepare an image that is 100x100 or less, a .JPG, and under 10kb. On the 15th of each month you will be able to upload it an use it.
Comments
i rarely sell a coin. but when i do, yes, i do care about how much that coin will sell for. and if i make a profit, i will not donate it to the nearest church...sorry for being honest.
you said >>
do you like the COIN or what's printed on the holder?
>> and i say, i love the coin and want the label to show the true grade.
you said >>
bengals seems to imply that his coins are not being graded correctly because he's not paying pcgs enough (using "economy") and thinks that maybe a higher a level of service will "work" better than repeated resubmissions to get the coins into their "correct" holders.
<< and I agree
you said >>
bengals should consider the possibility that the coins just aren't the grades he thinks they are.
>> and i say, that could be the case in some instances.
i plan on posting some pictures... even though, like someone said, it is hard to grade them that way.
<< <i>funny, how you guys assume that i'm wrong and they are right... could it be that they've made a mistake? noooo; but how about the 1942 d mercury dime that i have in my collection which was labeled as 1942 (without the d) ... >>
Have you ever written anything on a computer and had one typographical error? I write quite a lot, and mistakes get by me, just as they do everyone. That's why I have outsiders edit my papers. NGC has made errors, as have ANACS and basically every other grading service out there...
<< <i>ms63/64 that look worst than the 1881 >>
I found one
at my job i can't just tell the boss "oh mistakes just happen sometimes" - and i get paid far less.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
1) Grading services make mistakes. About 10% of coins I see are overgraded; they always appear at major auctions and shows because knowledgeable people know this, they bought them cheap, and are trying to unload them on ignorant collectors.
2) Learn how to grade coins before claiming that a coin was graded incorrectly. IMO, Morgans and Walkers are among the easiest coins to grade as far as a particular series of coins goes. You don't need a loupe to grade these coins. These coins are not my area of expertise, and I can grade them more or less adequately.
3) Get some books before buying coins, and look at as many coins as you can until you feel that you really know how to grade them. Look at a lot of, say Morgans in 4 graded by NGC & compare them with those 4s graded by PCGS. Notice trends. If you can't tell, say, what's a nice MS 65 from a just made it 65, do not buy the coin.
Anyone who knows a little bit about Morgans knows that New Orleans coins are graded differently than Philadelphia coins and that Carson City $s also have their own set of standards.
And if you know a fair amount about a series, you'll realize that different standards apply to different years. Ie., expect lack of head detail in an 1887 P Dime in pretty much any grade, while this would not be acceptable with an 1886 P Dime.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
The data tells me that your arguement that PCGS has undergraded all your coins submitted tells me that you are not familar with the PCGS standard for each of those individual coins. While I am not a Morgan collector, I do know that the standards vary by date and Mint.
I would say post a couple of pictures and let some of the more knowledgable folks here give an opinion. I would particularly be interested in what Dragon thinks of your coins.
btw, one of the coins i sent was an 1916-p mercury. it was graded ms64-fb. since you know alot about mercury dimes, i'll post a picture of this coin and, hopefully, get your opinion on it.
Its business and this is how its been done for many centuries.
Things arent supposed to be fair. If it was then more people would be like me.
ROFL!
MCDBA MCSA MCP
SQL Server Database Admin
SQLgeek.org
bengals, you said "... have other coins that i've submitted that came back less than they should (always by one point). i think that is because i used the economy service.
There you have. Always by one point. Maybe you are one point off.
<< <i>If your name is David hall or one of the buddy buddy companies you will get treated just fine. >>
BOGUS! I am just a little tiny collector and I get treated just fine.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>BOGUS! I am just a little tiny collector and I get treated just fine. >>
As do I. PCGS certainly isn't perfect, but whenever I have had a problem, they've been more than willing to seek a solution. Doesn't always work out the way I'd like, but than I'm not always right. Sometimes, what I thought was PCGS's screwup, was [SHOCK] really my own.
Russ, NCNE
TO be honest, you might want to take a much closer look at the coins your questioning. PCGS does make mistakes, but normally there quite consistant and right on target. As far as service, it does not matter whether you send in one day express or economy, they will grade it the same. Just the turn around time is the difference.
I have sent a few pieces in recently by both two day , and regular, and they have come back right on target as to what I thought they would grade, in one case a grade higher. This included two Morgans.
Take a look again, looking at not only the contact marks, but strike, surface luster breaks, any other mentionable surface distractions, etc, then If you feel you were shafted, send it in for the so-called review.
Just MY OP
He could have a borderliner that could go either way so if he feels so strongly about he should resubmit it using the Regrade Service because all he has to lose is $20 but has $600 worth of instant value to gain.
But under no circumstances should he crack it out of the slab himself because once he has removed it from the holder all bets are off. I guess the alleged 82 O/S is the reason for this thread?
Try to get a 70 through them and those that do, wouldn't you love to know their names!!!
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
btw, thank you all for your opinions/suggestions.
<< <i>out of these 39 coins, 4 were blatantly undergraded by 1 point, and about 3 were between two grades and of course received the lesser one. the rest were properly graded. and to be honest, one came back at a higher grade than i expected. >>
Okay, is it just me, or is anyone else now wondering what the hell he was complaining about? Out of a submission of 39 coins, four coins are a point different than you expected, one comes back higher than expected and the rest were right on?
Hello?? Welcome to reality.
Russ, NCNE
pcgs does not stand behind their grading standards. pcgs offers you a 50% guarantee, because they will only guarantee against OVERgraded coins. they will not guarantee against UNDERgraded coins. to put it bluntly, it is a lie to make the statement "pcgs stands behind their grades" (all true for ngc, anacs, icg as well).
the kicker is, you lose just as much when your coins are undergraded as when they are overgraded.
why is this so hard for some to understand (or accept)?
K S
Recently I had a condition census large cent come back in a body bag from both services. OK, my coin is not perfect, but then I see a coin from the same era in an NGC EF-45 holder, that is so badly scratched over 100% of the surface that made me wonder how it got into ANY legitimate holder. And to top it off some corrosion had been removed from the reverse. The reason? A very famous collector it owned at one time, and perhaps a major dealer sent it in, so it gets graded. What a crock! And it’s not the first time I’ve seen that.
No doubt!!!!!!!! When the Benson coins were graded by PCGS the first time he probably would have loved to have your results as far more coins were undergraded only to be upgraded when submitted after the auction. The way you talked I thought the majority of your coins were undergraded in your opinion, having only 10% less then you thought is doing pretty good now a days.
Sometimes I just want to pound my head into the wall until I lose consciousness, and surrender into the purple fog bank of eternal... blissful... sleep.
Clankeye
I have submitted about 2 dozen coins to PCGS. About a dozen coins have been completed. I agree with all of the grades assigned because, A) I see the flaws,
PS ~ there was a mechanical error on my order that arrived yesterday. Mailed the three mistakes back today. No need to get out the David Hall voodoo doll or get emotional. Mistakes happen when you are under the gun and from what I have seen, PCGS takes care of submitters small or large, unless they are named Greg Marguli...
I have also submitted coins to be graded by PCI (mostly circulated Morgans of lower value). Of the ones I have submitted, here are the facts... 1) I have never received a grade higher than expected... Sound familiar? 2) The rest were either exactly what I expected or one point (or tier) lower. So, the final conclusion is that PCI and I do not always agree on a grade... Sound familiar?
Final final conclusion is that I need more practice in grading... Go figure... That is why I just bought a microscope and more coins (Morgans) of different certified grades (by nearly every certification company) to help me become better at grading. It is all about the learning isn't it? I think I am a pretty good grader, but every coin is different and every grader is different.
At the end of the day, if I am trying to sell one of my coins (Morgans) and the buyer and I can agree on the grade, then if it happens to agree with the certification on the slab then that is great.
Most of my Morgans are PCGS, but I own NGC, ICG, ANACS, NTC, PCI, SEGS and even one ANA (really). I love the coins in my collection and can study them for hours. Do I agree with the grades on each slab? Of course I do, that is why I bought the them. Does that mean that PCGS will agree with me if I ever send any of them in for a cross-over? Highly unlikely based on past history. I do not fault PCGS. I cannot say for sure they use the same yard stick for my coins as they do for big dealer, but I hope they do.
P.S. How do you veteran forum members get the cool icons for your symbol. I would prefer to use my favorite Morgan from my collection as my icon instead of the Oakland Raiders.
<< <i>P.S. How do you veteran forum members get the cool icons for your symbol. I would prefer to use my favorite Morgan from my collection as my icon instead of the Oakland Raiders. >>
Prepare an image that is 100x100 or less, a .JPG, and under 10kb. On the 15th of each month you will be able to upload it an use it.
Jeremy