PCGS announced the upcoming cooperative arrangement with ebay at the August 26th Registry Set Awards event at Pittsburgh ANA. Once the show is over I imagine PCGS will make a comprehensive announcement regarding ebay authentification and other notable changes.
What happens when the eBay authentication center (PCGS) gets a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit PCGS slab? Will PCGS return it to the seller or will they destroy it? Suggest that PCGS should have a branding iron to burn "FAKE" into the slab if eBay wants them to return it to the seller.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall said:
What happens when the eBay authentication center (PCGS) gets a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit PCGS slab? Will PCGS return it to the seller or will they destroy it? Suggest that PCGS should have a branding iron to burn "FAKE" into the slab if eBay wants them to return it to the seller.
It's an interesting question.
From the eBay information page:
What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item's authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. If a certified holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, the item will not pass inspection and the certification will be deactivated.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
"What happens when the eBay authentication center (PCGS) gets a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit PCGS slab? Will PCGS return it to the seller or will they destroy it?"
Suppose you unknowingly sold such a coin. What would you prefer- to have PCGS destroy it or return it to you so you could return it to the person you bought it from for a refund?
@MasonG said:
"What happens when the eBay authentication center (PCGS) gets a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit PCGS slab? Will PCGS return it to the seller or will they destroy it?"
Suppose you unknowingly sold such a coin. What would you prefer- to have PCGS destroy it or return it to you so you could return it to the person you bought it from for a refund?
I agree. However, you have PCGS in possession of a "counterfeit" slab. If PCGS is not pursuing enforcement of their IP, then I think they need to return it. I'm not as sure, however, that they couldn't keep it and pursue a case.
I would guess they would choose to return it. They don't seem interested in devoting resources into going after the fakes. But it is a rather interesting situation because they would suddenly find themselves, as the wronged party, in possession of the item that inflicted the wrong.
It's possibly different than their having a counterfeit coin or CAC having a PCGS slab that's fake.
Lawyers?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm not as sure, however, that they couldn't keep it and pursue a case.
This is the part that seems problematic. What do you call it when someone takes and keeps something that belongs to someone else?
Confiscation of illegal contraband.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm not as sure, however, that they couldn't keep it and pursue a case.
This is the part that seems problematic. What do you call it when someone takes and keeps something that belongs to someone else?
Confiscation of illegal contraband.
Well, I sort of agree. But that's why I think they could only do that if they are actually pursuing a case. They have no legal right to seize "contraband" themselves. They aren't law enforcement.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm not as sure, however, that they couldn't keep it and pursue a case.
This is the part that seems problematic. What do you call it when someone takes and keeps something that belongs to someone else?
That's why I said it need to be part of a legal action. I don't think they have any right to simply seize it. They aren't law enforcement. They MIGHT have the right to hold it and launch legal action. I don't really know.
If someone brings a stolen car to a garage, can't the garage hold the car and call the authorities? They microchip dogs and cats and the vets call the authorities if the scan demonstrates the dog was stolen, they don't simply hand it back to the person who brought it in.
But I don't know, maybe one of our lawyers does.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf said:
They have no legal right to seize "contraband" themselves. They aren't law enforcement.
That's what I was thinking. There's no reason they couldn't work with the owner of the item in order to initiate legal action while protecting the owner's ability to persue their own remedy, is there?
@jmlanzaf said:
They have no legal right to seize "contraband" themselves. They aren't law enforcement.
That's what I was thinking. There's no reason they couldn't work with the owner of the item in order to initiate legal action while protecting the owner's ability to persue their own remedy, is there?
No. I just don't think they are likely to bother.
I wonder if they will be able to see who the sellers are. They might go after repeat offenders. I can't imagine they will bother for one-offs.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item's authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. If a certified holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, the item will not pass inspection and the certification will be deactivated.
Another twist here is that quite often a legitimate cert number is used to produce fake slabs, if PCGS deactivates the cert what happens to the guy with the legit coin?
@2windy2fish said:
What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item's authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. If a certified holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, the item will not pass inspection and the certification will be deactivated.
Another twist here is that quite often a legitimate cert number is used to produce fake slabs, if PCGS deactivates the cert what happens to the guy with the legit coin?
PCGS already does this. Nothing new here.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
If you list a gold or silver coin in the bullion category will it still have to be sent out if it is worth over $500? I'm assuming not:
"Eligibility Details Bullion Exclusion: According to EcommerceBytes, items listed specifically in the bullion category are completely excluded from the coin authentication mandate. Collectible Coins: Eligible U.S. and World graded or raw collectible coins priced at $500 or more outside of the bullion category qualify for professional inspection through the eBay Authenticity Guarantee program".
A different example- a terrible counterfeit in a better fake PCGS slab. "Slash the eagle" and wrong reverse for the date and mint...
Seller started the bidding under the threshold at $499; it is now above the $500 minimum, but the listing is not marked "Authenticity guarantee". Will it be covered after the sale?
@JDark said:
A different example- a terrible counterfeit in a better fake PCGS slab. "Slash the eagle" and wrong reverse for the date and mint...
Seller started the bidding under the threshold at $499; it is now above the $500 minimum, but the listing is not marked "Authenticity guarantee". Will it be covered after the sale?
I think it depends. Ebay is rolling out the program in steps. Not all eligible coins or sellers are covered under it yet.
Copied from a similar thread so it can get seen on this one:
Yeah, I herd it was coming, but wasnt sure the exact date when it took affected, or more importantly, didnt pay attention, I had sold a raw 2 1/2 indian on ebay last week that crossed threshold, shipped it out last wed via regular ground advantage, just arrived today, has not yet shown recieved by authenticator as of me typing now. Hopefully tomorrow, turn around time is going to be the big question. Later in week, I sold three PCGS graded coins that crossed the threshold, they were already listed before I was aware, they had just got graded at pcgs after 3 months, and now they are on the way back to pcgs authenticator. jeeze. I sent these fedex as I have been doing on higher dollar value packages due to mail theft, will see if this speeds up the process, as for me its going from east coast to west coast and back to east coast in many cases. I am also curious if pcgs authenticators are going to fedex back to buyer as I have or cheap out and use slow mo mail. a big question I have as well. Will update as to how process goes. I put a notice on ebay to my customers letting them know whats going on in lamon terms with this new process. I also may not sell 500 items for the near future until I see how it goes as well. I can see GC getting a heck of a lot of business now on 500 up items.
Update to my earlier post:
the 2 1/2 indian (raw) was recieved this am, in about an hour 1/2 later, verified and shipped to buyer, also shipping fedex, so at this early stage , they appear to be on top of things. Thats good. Ill let you know when the 3 other coins that were shipped fedex arrive and process, they were already graded by pcgs
My first item was authenticated. Shipped from AZ to CA (PCGS) in three days, verified in 38 minutes, now on its way to TX via Fedex. This process does double the shipping time, worse if the buyer and seller are on the east coast. Either way, shipping time is overall generally expedient so no complaints.
I'm glad the verification process itself was quick. Hopefully this department doesn't get backed up over time. I can't imagine that happening. I wonder how PCGS's hiring and training was for this venture; if they are well equipped, team size, etc.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
I keep wondering who will absorb the shipping/handling/insurance fees on these coins? We already pay enough for our personal coins that we send in, and it certainly isn’t cheap by any means. So people selling high $ items that offer ridiculously low/free shipping fees on eBay won’t get hurt by this?
@safari_dude said:
I keep wondering who will absorb the shipping/handling/insurance fees on these coins? We already pay enough for our personal coins that we send in, and it certainly isn’t cheap by any means. So people selling high $ items that offer ridiculously low/free shipping fees on eBay won’t get hurt by this?
Ebay pays out of the fees they collect. They've been doing it with cards for almost 5 years. Read my earlier posts for links.
Shipping fees are irrelevant.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@2windy2fish said:
What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item's authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. If a certified holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, the item will not pass inspection and the certification will be deactivated.
Another twist here is that quite often a legitimate cert number is used to produce fake slabs, if PCGS deactivates the cert what happens to the guy with the legit coin?
@jmlanzaf I don’t understand your response…
Somewhere the legit coin exists with a real cert number, the counterfeiter uses that cert number and makes bogus coins…If PCGS deactivates the cert number the owner of the real coin now has a bad cert number…
@2windy2fish said: @2windy2fish said:
What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item's authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. If a certified holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, the item will not pass inspection and the certification will be deactivated.
Another twist here is that quite often a legitimate cert number is used to produce fake slabs, if PCGS deactivates the cert what happens to the guy with the legit coin?
@jmlanzaf I don’t understand your response…
Somewhere the legit coin exists with a real cert number, the counterfeiter uses that cert number and makes bogus coins…If PCGS deactivates the cert number the owner of the real coin now has a bad cert number…
PCGS already does this. Nothing new here.
I fully understand that. But PCGS already invalidates certification numbers when counterfeits appear with that number. This is not a new action.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@2windy2fish said: @2windy2fish said:
What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item's authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. If a certified holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, the item will not pass inspection and the certification will be deactivated.
Another twist here is that quite often a legitimate cert number is used to produce fake slabs, if PCGS deactivates the cert what happens to the guy with the legit coin?
@jmlanzaf I don’t understand your response…
Somewhere the legit coin exists with a real cert number, the counterfeiter uses that cert number and makes bogus coins…If PCGS deactivates the cert number the owner of the real coin now has a bad cert number…
PCGS already does this. Nothing new here.
I fully understand that. But PCGS already invalidates certification numbers when counterfeits appear with that number. This is not a new action.
I'm pretty sure in that case you contact PCGS CS and they will have you send it in. Once they re-authenticate the coin I'm pretty sure they'll reholder it for you with a new cert, probably for free.
@jmlanzaf said:
They have no legal right to seize "contraband" themselves. They aren't law enforcement.
That's what I was thinking. There's no reason they couldn't work with the owner of the item in order to initiate legal action while protecting the owner's ability to persue their own remedy, is there?
Legal action against who? Many sellers will be unaware the slab they sold is fake. Many eBay sellers are not experienced or sophisticated (and we’ve seen instances in this forum where even the largest auction houses were fooled). How would PCGS ever prove who actually created the fake? Some fakes will have passed through many hands.
I don't know. I was responding to the idea that PCGS might "seize "contraband" themselves", which would seem to indicate a possibility of legal action on the part of PCGS.
"Many sellers will be unaware the slab they sold is fake. Many eBay sellers are not experienced or sophisticated (and we’ve seen instances in this forum where even the largest auction houses were fooled)."
Sure, that's true.
"How would PCGS ever prove who actually created the fake?"
I don't know.
"Some fakes will have passed through many hands."
All the more reason to not seize counterfeits as contraband and instead return them to their owners- in order that those owners might have an opportunity to return the counterfeits to the people they bought them from and obtain a refund.
I can see PCGS taking legal action in concert with the FBI against a specific eBay seller who is selling dozens of fake coins in the same fake PCGS slab thus establishing an obvious pattern of fraud.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
For Authenticity Guarantee coins, the minimum amount that requires signature delivery is set at $1,500. An increase from the previous amount of $750 before the program.
@TrickleCharge said:
For Authenticity Guarantee coins, the minimum amount that requires signature delivery is set at $1,500. An increase from the previous amount of $750 before the program.
Probably using PCGS insurance.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@TrickleCharge said:
For Authenticity Guarantee coins, the minimum amount that requires signature delivery is set at $1,500. An increase from the previous amount of $750 before the program.
Probably using PCGS insurance.
Either way it should save sellers a few bucks on shipping costs by not having to pay for signature delivery between $750 and $1500.
@TrickleCharge said:
For Authenticity Guarantee coins, the minimum amount that requires signature delivery is set at $1,500. An increase from the previous amount of $750 before the program.
Probably using PCGS insurance.
Either way it should save sellers a few bucks on shipping costs by not having to pay for signature delivery between $750 and $1500.
Yes, if you're using your own insurance. If you use USPS insurance, signature is free above $499 insurance.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Just sold my first coin through the program. It works out for me because Priority mail from PHX to LA is less than the flat rate carrier packaging. Small victories.
Comments
PCGS announced the upcoming cooperative arrangement with ebay at the August 26th Registry Set Awards event at Pittsburgh ANA. Once the show is over I imagine PCGS will make a comprehensive announcement regarding ebay authentification and other notable changes.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
March of Time - 27 Centuries in Gold
https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=36590
What happens when the eBay authentication center (PCGS) gets a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit PCGS slab? Will PCGS return it to the seller or will they destroy it? Suggest that PCGS should have a branding iron to burn "FAKE" into the slab if eBay wants them to return it to the seller.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It's an interesting question.
From the eBay information page:
What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item's authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. If a certified holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, the item will not pass inspection and the certification will be deactivated.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
"What happens when the eBay authentication center (PCGS) gets a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit PCGS slab? Will PCGS return it to the seller or will they destroy it?"
Suppose you unknowingly sold such a coin. What would you prefer- to have PCGS destroy it or return it to you so you could return it to the person you bought it from for a refund?
I agree. However, you have PCGS in possession of a "counterfeit" slab. If PCGS is not pursuing enforcement of their IP, then I think they need to return it. I'm not as sure, however, that they couldn't keep it and pursue a case.
I would guess they would choose to return it. They don't seem interested in devoting resources into going after the fakes. But it is a rather interesting situation because they would suddenly find themselves, as the wronged party, in possession of the item that inflicted the wrong.
It's possibly different than their having a counterfeit coin or CAC having a PCGS slab that's fake.
Lawyers?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
This is the part that seems problematic. What do you call it when someone takes and keeps something that belongs to someone else?
Confiscation of illegal contraband.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Well, I sort of agree. But that's why I think they could only do that if they are actually pursuing a case. They have no legal right to seize "contraband" themselves. They aren't law enforcement.
That's why I said it need to be part of a legal action. I don't think they have any right to simply seize it. They aren't law enforcement. They MIGHT have the right to hold it and launch legal action. I don't really know.
If someone brings a stolen car to a garage, can't the garage hold the car and call the authorities? They microchip dogs and cats and the vets call the authorities if the scan demonstrates the dog was stolen, they don't simply hand it back to the person who brought it in.
But I don't know, maybe one of our lawyers does.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
That's what I was thinking. There's no reason they couldn't work with the owner of the item in order to initiate legal action while protecting the owner's ability to persue their own remedy, is there?
No. I just don't think they are likely to bother.
I wonder if they will be able to see who the sellers are. They might go after repeat offenders. I can't imagine they will bother for one-offs.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I am watching this one since it sold and both eBay and the seller ignored my warnings:
What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item's authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. If a certified holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, the item will not pass inspection and the certification will be deactivated.
Another twist here is that quite often a legitimate cert number is used to produce fake slabs, if PCGS deactivates the cert what happens to the guy with the legit coin?
PCGS already does this. Nothing new here.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
If you list a gold or silver coin in the bullion category will it still have to be sent out if it is worth over $500? I'm assuming not:
"Eligibility Details Bullion Exclusion: According to EcommerceBytes, items listed specifically in the bullion category are completely excluded from the coin authentication mandate. Collectible Coins: Eligible U.S. and World graded or raw collectible coins priced at $500 or more outside of the bullion category qualify for professional inspection through the eBay Authenticity Guarantee program".
A different example- a terrible counterfeit in a better fake PCGS slab. "Slash the eagle" and wrong reverse for the date and mint...
Seller started the bidding under the threshold at $499; it is now above the $500 minimum, but the listing is not marked "Authenticity guarantee". Will it be covered after the sale?
I think it depends. Ebay is rolling out the program in steps. Not all eligible coins or sellers are covered under it yet.
The Bay did send me this on the 1878-CC:
Copied from a similar thread so it can get seen on this one:
Yeah, I herd it was coming, but wasnt sure the exact date when it took affected, or more importantly, didnt pay attention, I had sold a raw 2 1/2 indian on ebay last week that crossed threshold, shipped it out last wed via regular ground advantage, just arrived today, has not yet shown recieved by authenticator as of me typing now. Hopefully tomorrow, turn around time is going to be the big question. Later in week, I sold three PCGS graded coins that crossed the threshold, they were already listed before I was aware, they had just got graded at pcgs after 3 months, and now they are on the way back to pcgs authenticator. jeeze. I sent these fedex as I have been doing on higher dollar value packages due to mail theft, will see if this speeds up the process, as for me its going from east coast to west coast and back to east coast in many cases. I am also curious if pcgs authenticators are going to fedex back to buyer as I have or cheap out and use slow mo mail. a big question I have as well. Will update as to how process goes. I put a notice on ebay to my customers letting them know whats going on in lamon terms with this new process. I also may not sell 500 items for the near future until I see how it goes as well. I can see GC getting a heck of a lot of business now on 500 up items.
Update to my earlier post:
the 2 1/2 indian (raw) was recieved this am, in about an hour 1/2 later, verified and shipped to buyer, also shipping fedex, so at this early stage , they appear to be on top of things. Thats good. Ill let you know when the 3 other coins that were shipped fedex arrive and process, they were already graded by pcgs
My first item was authenticated. Shipped from AZ to CA (PCGS) in three days, verified in 38 minutes, now on its way to TX via Fedex. This process does double the shipping time, worse if the buyer and seller are on the east coast. Either way, shipping time is overall generally expedient so no complaints.
I'm glad the verification process itself was quick. Hopefully this department doesn't get backed up over time. I can't imagine that happening. I wonder how PCGS's hiring and training was for this venture; if they are well equipped, team size, etc.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
Curious to see how they handle an un-attributed variety that adds a significant premium to the coin.
I keep wondering who will absorb the shipping/handling/insurance fees on these coins? We already pay enough for our personal coins that we send in, and it certainly isn’t cheap by any means. So people selling high $ items that offer ridiculously low/free shipping fees on eBay won’t get hurt by this?
Ebay pays out of the fees they collect. They've been doing it with cards for almost 5 years. Read my earlier posts for links.
Shipping fees are irrelevant.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@2windy2fish said:
What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item's authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. If a certified holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, the item will not pass inspection and the certification will be deactivated.
Another twist here is that quite often a legitimate cert number is used to produce fake slabs, if PCGS deactivates the cert what happens to the guy with the legit coin?
@jmlanzaf I don’t understand your response…
Somewhere the legit coin exists with a real cert number, the counterfeiter uses that cert number and makes bogus coins…If PCGS deactivates the cert number the owner of the real coin now has a bad cert number…
PCGS already does this. Nothing new here.
I fully understand that. But PCGS already invalidates certification numbers when counterfeits appear with that number. This is not a new action.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I'm pretty sure in that case you contact PCGS CS and they will have you send it in. Once they re-authenticate the coin I'm pretty sure they'll reholder it for you with a new cert, probably for free.
Legal action against who? Many sellers will be unaware the slab they sold is fake. Many eBay sellers are not experienced or sophisticated (and we’ve seen instances in this forum where even the largest auction houses were fooled). How would PCGS ever prove who actually created the fake? Some fakes will have passed through many hands.
"Legal action against who?"
I don't know. I was responding to the idea that PCGS might "seize "contraband" themselves", which would seem to indicate a possibility of legal action on the part of PCGS.
"Many sellers will be unaware the slab they sold is fake. Many eBay sellers are not experienced or sophisticated (and we’ve seen instances in this forum where even the largest auction houses were fooled)."
Sure, that's true.
"How would PCGS ever prove who actually created the fake?"
I don't know.
"Some fakes will have passed through many hands."
All the more reason to not seize counterfeits as contraband and instead return them to their owners- in order that those owners might have an opportunity to return the counterfeits to the people they bought them from and obtain a refund.
I can see PCGS taking legal action in concert with the FBI against a specific eBay seller who is selling dozens of fake coins in the same fake PCGS slab thus establishing an obvious pattern of fraud.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Classic def of insanity; can't get eBay to acknowledge it is fake and there is no guarantee. Bid over $2.5K and still running...
For Authenticity Guarantee coins, the minimum amount that requires signature delivery is set at $1,500. An increase from the previous amount of $750 before the program.
Probably using PCGS insurance.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Either way it should save sellers a few bucks on shipping costs by not having to pay for signature delivery between $750 and $1500.
Yes, if you're using your own insurance. If you use USPS insurance, signature is free above $499 insurance.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Just sold my first coin through the program. It works out for me because Priority mail from PHX to LA is less than the flat rate carrier packaging. Small victories.
I purchased this one; real-time test for me: