@pruebas said:
I just bought this today. It is apparently a new discovery. Still in its original cellophane from the Mexican Mint.
The obverse is the 1978 onza pattern using the design of the 1949 onza (see KM-Pn211).
This design was ultimately rejected for the inferior (IMHO) design ultimately selected.
The reverse design is a Mayan ballplayer similar to what was used on the 20 Pesos starting 1980.
(This design may have also been used on a medal, but I can't seem to find it.)
It has a plain edge, so perhaps it's a restrike, made after 1978 using muled dies.
Finding the medal with this reverse design might lend a clue.
So there are now two newly-discovered, related Mexican pieces and after further research, I believe they both may be patterns for the 1982 silver Libertad onza. I have no doubt they are absolutely genuine Mexican Mint products.
The evidence:
-The obverse of the first piece ties it to the 1978 Onza pattern (see KM-Pn211).
-The reverse of the first piece ties it to the second piece.
-The obverse of the second piece is a bizarre subject. It appears to be a crouching man holding a sword in his right hand and blowing a conch shell with his left hand. But why? And no legend?
-Both mintmarks "Mo" are absolutely legit (in font & style).
-Both pieces came in original Mexican Mint cellophane. Were they meant to be sold? Or is that how they delivered them to the officials for examination?
-The edge of both pieces are plain (which probably means restrike, sometime after 1978). KM-Pn211 has a reeded edge.
-The weight of both pieces is 31.1g, which implies 0.999 fineness.
But the 1978-80 onzas were of 0.925 fineness (33.62g and a carryover from 1949). 0.999 didn't start being used for bullion until the silver Libertad series in 1982 (even the early gold onzas in 1981 were 0.900 fine).
My current thinking is that these were the first ideas for the new onza series starting 1982. They had the 1978 pattern die lying around, and maybe they thought it was nicer than the final selected design from the 78-80 onza, so they were trying it again in 1981 after the discontinuance of the 78-80 onza. Or maybe they were just planchet patterns for the new 0.999 fine silver planchets to be used starting 1982.
Anyway, these are headed off for a long vacation at Newport Beach and I need to think of the best way to attribute them.
Edited to add: I own 3 different varieties of KM-Pn211. Maybe I should crack them all out and weigh them? KM-Pn211 is one of the pattern designs for the 1978 silver onza.
I bought these a year ago, but never showed them here. They are US pieces made by the Knights Templar of Philadelphia. There is some relation to Mexico and I bought them for the beautiful rendition of the Mexican eagle on the reverse. They seem scarce as I’ve not seen them before.
Anybody notice this sale? 1858 Canada specimen cent in PCGS SP-65 Brown, with a small obverse scratch. Went for $11,590, about 4 times what I thought was the going rate. Shows what I know.
Numismatic author & owner of the Uncommon Cents collections. 2011 and 2025 Fred Bowman award winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson award winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca award winner.
@bosox said:
Anybody notice this sale? 1858 Canada specimen cent in PCGS SP-65 Brown, with a small obverse scratch. Went for $11,590, about 4 times what I thought was the going rate. Shows what I know.
I don't see how that could be a 65 with that scratch plus the ones on the cheek and behind the neck.
But not knowing pricing on these, the price doesn't seem outrageous to me.
There are about 40 specimen 1858 cents around. It's the most common large cent specimen date outside of 1908 and 1911. The Charlton standard catalog lists a SP-65RB for $3,500 CAD. A few years ago, I bought a really nice SP-65 RB for $4,000 USD from Heritage's Beckman sale (a well-known Canada specimen collection). $11,590 is a quantum leap, likely caused by two very stubborn bidders.
Numismatic author & owner of the Uncommon Cents collections. 2011 and 2025 Fred Bowman award winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson award winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca award winner.
Proof like off metal pattern (Pn47 in Krause) in CuNi, originally misattributed as a business strike at NGC, being corrected now as a mechanical error.
Now with an update, NGC’s XRF confirmed off-metal with a combined 75% CuNi but the incompetent NGC put the coin right back in the same MS65 holder. Just spoke with customer service. Amazing.
@bosox said:
There are about 40 specimen 1858 cents around. It's the most common large cent specimen date outside of 1908 and 1911. The Charlton standard catalog lists a SP-65RB for $3,500 CAD. A few years ago, I bought a really nice SP-65 RB for $4,000 USD from Heritage's Beckman sale (a well-known Canada specimen collection). $11,590 is a quantum leap, likely caused by two very stubborn bidders.
Very true. But if Canadian is anything like Mexican, prices have increased dramatically in the last 2 years. Largely due to the drastic decline of the USD.
Really good Canadian is going higher, but I suspect not as much or as quickly as Latin American coinages. I did not consider this 1858 specimen cent as really good Canadian, mostly because I agree it was over-graded.
Numismatic author & owner of the Uncommon Cents collections. 2011 and 2025 Fred Bowman award winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson award winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca award winner.
Comments
Peru (1872). Bronze medal by Tiffany & Co. Engraved by JS & AB Wyon.
So there are now two newly-discovered, related Mexican pieces and after further research, I believe they both may be patterns for the 1982 silver Libertad onza. I have no doubt they are absolutely genuine Mexican Mint products.
The evidence:
-The obverse of the first piece ties it to the 1978 Onza pattern (see KM-Pn211).
-The reverse of the first piece ties it to the second piece.
-The obverse of the second piece is a bizarre subject. It appears to be a crouching man holding a sword in his right hand and blowing a conch shell with his left hand. But why? And no legend?
-Both mintmarks "Mo" are absolutely legit (in font & style).
-Both pieces came in original Mexican Mint cellophane. Were they meant to be sold? Or is that how they delivered them to the officials for examination?
-The edge of both pieces are plain (which probably means restrike, sometime after 1978). KM-Pn211 has a reeded edge.
-The weight of both pieces is 31.1g, which implies 0.999 fineness.
But the 1978-80 onzas were of 0.925 fineness (33.62g and a carryover from 1949). 0.999 didn't start being used for bullion until the silver Libertad series in 1982 (even the early gold onzas in 1981 were 0.900 fine).
My current thinking is that these were the first ideas for the new onza series starting 1982. They had the 1978 pattern die lying around, and maybe they thought it was nicer than the final selected design from the 78-80 onza, so they were trying it again in 1981 after the discontinuance of the 78-80 onza. Or maybe they were just planchet patterns for the new 0.999 fine silver planchets to be used starting 1982.
Anyway, these are headed off for a long vacation at Newport Beach and I need to think of the best way to attribute them.
Edited to add: I own 3 different varieties of KM-Pn211. Maybe I should crack them all out and weigh them? KM-Pn211 is one of the pattern designs for the 1978 silver onza.
Please keep us posted how this unfolds… should be interesting
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Rare Chilean gold medal, perhaps 5 exist from 10 made.
Latin American Collection
I bought these a year ago, but never showed them here. They are US pieces made by the Knights Templar of Philadelphia. There is some relation to Mexico and I bought them for the beautiful rendition of the Mexican eagle on the reverse. They seem scarce as I’ve not seen them before.
Bronze NGC MS64:
White metal (raw):
Anybody notice this sale? 1858 Canada specimen cent in PCGS SP-65 Brown, with a small obverse scratch. Went for $11,590, about 4 times what I thought was the going rate. Shows what I know.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/canada-victoria-specimen-cent-1858-sp65-brown-pcgs-/a/3132-32173.s?ic2=mybidspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyBids-101116
http://www.victoriancent.com
I don't see how that could be a 65 with that scratch plus the ones on the cheek and behind the neck.
But not knowing pricing on these, the price doesn't seem outrageous to me.
There are about 40 specimen 1858 cents around. It's the most common large cent specimen date outside of 1908 and 1911. The Charlton standard catalog lists a SP-65RB for $3,500 CAD. A few years ago, I bought a really nice SP-65 RB for $4,000 USD from Heritage's Beckman sale (a well-known Canada specimen collection). $11,590 is a quantum leap, likely caused by two very stubborn bidders.
http://www.victoriancent.com
New pickup. South Peru “sun face” 2R. The sun is there, the face not so much. Looks to be a nice wholesome original with honest wear.
F15
Proof like off metal pattern (Pn47 in Krause) in CuNi, originally misattributed as a business strike at NGC, being corrected now as a mechanical error.
Now with an update, NGC’s XRF confirmed off-metal with a combined 75% CuNi but the incompetent NGC put the coin right back in the same MS65 holder. Just spoke with customer service. Amazing.
Latin American Collection
Very true. But if Canadian is anything like Mexican, prices have increased dramatically in the last 2 years. Largely due to the drastic decline of the USD.
Really good Canadian is going higher, but I suspect not as much or as quickly as Latin American coinages. I did not consider this 1858 specimen cent as really good Canadian, mostly because I agree it was over-graded.
http://www.victoriancent.com