What is the oldest slabbed copper coin that has the Red designation?
dirtygold
Posts: 31 ✭✭
Someone here showed a beautiful red large cent in a PCGS slab graded with the RD designation in another thread. I was wondering what is the oldest copper coin that's been slabbed with the RD designation?
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Was the PCGS MS69 Chain a RED? If not, then I'm going to guess probably some type of copper cent minted after that.
It is most likely a foreign coin or token that predates the US Mint but it would be interesting to see both what the oldest US coin that is full red and the oldest world coin that is full red.
I've seen red duits from Holland dated in the 1720s.
I just checked PCGS Coin Facts which is a great resource and should be in every coin collectors favorites list. They show a red-brown chain cent in MS65 but no full red chain cents.
Then I am inclined to believe it was a cent minted after that.
This is the earliest one I'm aware of...
I have often pondered this question myself
Steve
Going with the 69 chain cent, another coin graded at the same time was a 1793 wreath cent graded SP-68RD that still comes up in Coinfacts with no picture. Though there was a famous picture of those high grade early cents together that I haven't seen in a while.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
One wonders how these coins were preserved so well....200+ years is a long time and they must have changed hands a few times. Yet they are still in remarkable condition. Amazing. Cheers, RickO
There is no PCGS MS69 Chain cent. There is a PCGS MS69 Wreath Cent, but it is brown. I believe @abcde12345 was thinking about the SP68RED Wreath Cent, which is seen in the photo below:
PCGS Coin Facts lists a 1787 Fugio cent with a RD designation but there is no picture available. I'd love to see this coin.
According to the PCGS Population report, that RD Fugio cent was a New Haven restrike, so definitely not struck in the 1700's. (PCGS dates the New Haven restrikes to 1859.)
This may be the RD Fugio Cent you were referring to, as it may have crossed over from an NGC holder:
PCGS Coin Facts lists a regular strike Fugio as being Red.
Latin American Collection
Perhaps so, but Coinfacts is not updated as frequently than the Pop Report, which is updated daily. There is no RED Fugio cent in the Pop Report.
if you owned one of these coins, wouldn't you be terrified that the color would change?
IMO, 200 year old copper should NEVER be red!
Dave
There are a few colonials that are graded red older than the chain.
Now that's a good start on my box of 20.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Red Fugio’s definitely exist. They just haven’t been slabbed. Many colonial collectors(especially the older collectors) prefer to have their coins raw no matter what the grade.
Copper is one of the more reactive metals used in minting coins. Unless these coins were held in some special atmospheric condition, how can they retain mint luster all of these years without oxidizing?
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Old copper and red do not go tougher in my book.
When I say "old copper", well, anything pre 1900 should be a pleasant chocolate brown, and hint of red will be acceptable...but not to much red.
There's an NGC red coin from the late 1600s (I think French). I have seen 200+ year old foreign copper in red that look (and are) completely natural
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Can I have a peak at your 200+ year red coin?
Not mine, but these are some that are red or partially red:
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
And here are some almost 200 year old coins that are fully red:
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
There was an 1800 Half cent that graded red early last year, sold thru heritage by a national dealer. It came from the NC area from a private collection.
25 or 30 years ago, you could dip copper bright red and they would be graded. Not anymore. If some of those old coins as red were cracked and submitted now, forget about it! They never will be though.
I dispute this.
I was reading that at one time collectors would dip copper coins in cyanide which would give them a red color. Is anyone here familiar with this practice and how convincing were the results produced? As a side note, I read that a famous coin collector (J. Sanford Saltus) was sitting at his desk dipping some copper coins in a glass of cyanide. He also had a glass of ginger ale on his desk. While admiring his coins he drank what he thought was his ginger ale but grabbed the wrong glass. He died as a result in 1922.
Many of those British pieces came out of a single roll stored in ideal conditions. When I was living there a local dealer found a roll of gem red unc 1841 1/2P. I picked one up for myself.
Latin American Collection
These were from the James Watt Jr. Estate, and were kept "raw" by the family, but sheltered in custom-made copper shells that were gold-plated inside. The copper shells toned to brown, but they preserved the mint red color of the coins themselves.
While not struck in proof format, this one was likewise preserved:
@dirtygold Re Mr. Saltus's death: As I recall, the ANS's magazine published an article a few years back that rather convincingly argued that he died by suicide rather than by accident. But, in truth, who knows? He left no note, so it's not possible to tell for sure.
Rick, what are you disputing - that you can't dip copper to make it red again? that there are dipped red coins in holders? or that people are cracking dipped red coins and getting them upgraded? Just curious. Thanks.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
@cardinal those are stunning!
200+ year old Ultra Cam red copper. Wow! I think I would try to get those housed in the new airtight slabs.
Even though that this is an old post, there is a new canditate on the question of the topic. On the upcoming auction of Leu, Web Auction 41, lot 3641, it appears to be a slabbed red RD copper coin from 1619. https://www.numisbids.com/sale/10406/lot/3641
I have done some small reserach on this question, as it was always make me wonder. The previously oldest graded red copper coin known, that was able to be detected, was a 1723 1/2 P Hibernia Halfpenny MS 64 RD from PCGS [Heritage Auctions, Auction 1272 (22 February 2018), Lot 3006]. The coin offered is approximately one century older! I think it can be considered as the definition of a true condition rarity and an unrivaled masterpiece of numismatic preservation. Top graded,
solely finest known and possibly the oldest copper coin graded with the RD (red) designation by a third-party grading company in the world.
If you have any news or updates on the issue, it would be really nice to gather here the oldest red (RD) copper coins that were graded by a TPG company.
1619, I think that we have a winner.
Now, what is the oldest copper/bronze coin with ANY red left? I've been checking Roman bronzes for condition rarities for many years and a few have actually have lustrous-looking surfaces but are brown. I once sold a common type Trajan sestertius for $3500 due to it's exceptional grade and have looked for top grade Roman bronzes ever since. No red Roman coins, so far. But I'll bet that there others from the 1500-1600s with some red.
Regarding the initial question/title of the topic what is the oldest slabbed copper coin that has the Red designation, I think the coin on the currently ongoing Leu auction is clearly the winner, indeed. It beats with approximately 1 century (!) the previous oldest, which was a 1723 1/2 P Hibernia Halfpenny MS 64 RD from PCGS [Heritage Auctions, Auction 1272 (22 February 2018), Lot 3006].
Further information can be found also on the auction's house description, especially on the part referring to the condition:
ITALY. Venezia (Venice). Anonymous. 6 Bagattini (Copper, 23 mm, 2.44 g, 12 h), no date (1619-1649). ·SAN·MARCVS·VEN· Front of Saint Mark making a benediction gesture with his right hand and holding the Gospel on his left hand. Rev. ★R★C★★★L★A★ / ★6★ on the exergue Facing Madonna with Child on right. Paolucci 734. Montenegro 51. In NGC encapsulation, graded MS 64 RD. Top Pop. _Possibly the oldest mint state red colour coin graded by a third-party grading company. _Small areas of weakness and minor doubling, otherwise, virtually as struck.
With that said and possibly founding the winner on the first question, comes also the interesting question stated by fellow member sellitstore "what is the oldest copper/bronze coin with ANY red left?"
I had done some reserach on the past and I think I found the answer towards this side-discussion/question. It was regarding the oldest coin copper with traces of mint state colour. However, it is not exactly red (RD) copper.
For that, we have to go back at Roman times. Also, we must mention that the coin I refer to, is made by brass [orichalcum, a greek word that is still in use and derives from όρος (oros) and χαλκός (chalkos), which roughly means "mountain copper"], a little more different alloy that gives a slightly golden tone. The coin I am referring to is a Sestertius of Titus (80-81 AD). They coin has retained at some spots even the original lustre and exact colour as when it was minted! Some rumours that I read, were saying that it was sealed/covered by some clay and that is the reason that was found like this. It was auctioned back in 2013 and reached a high price of 150.000 Swiss Francs (!), Numismatica Ars Classica, Auction 72 (16 May 2013), Lot 627.
That was the furthest I was able to go on our side-discussion. That means that of course there might be other coins with similar stories and "conditions". Apparently Leu's coin might follow similar fate to that of NAC's and fetch a rather high price, as condition rarity and these cases of extreme numismatic preservation attracts various collectors. If anyone has something to add kidnly proceed, as numismatic condition rarity topics is a truly interesting subject.
Seems like they would need to have been covered in shellac or varnish or some sort long ago, not sure what was used but that would block oxidation, and now you could remove it with acetone. Both have been available for a very long time, but you would need a collector thinking beyond their own lifetime.
I'm not sure you can count ancient coins. Ancient coins, especially copper, are almost always "curated" (cleaned). Such cleaning is considered normal and does not result in details grades for ancients. I don't know about that particular coin, but odds are it was curated after being found unless it happened to be in wax or something.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Well, this is kind of true, but on the same time many different factors must be taken into consideration.
Regarding the main question of the topic, and as some other members stated, we might have the winner: Venice, 6 Bagattini (=1 Bezzo = ½ Soldo), issued under the decree of April 20, 1619 (pic above).
The fascinating thing is that this coin is currently on an ongoing auction https://leunumismatik.com/en/lot/70/3641. This coin must be thrilling to have in person.
As for the sidequestion with the RB designation, there might be an issue regarding the use of the designation itself by the TPG companies. For instance, if it is possible to find a coin from the 15th century with traces of red, this would be graded most probably as such (RB). But when it comes to coins from Byzantine empire, if there is any with traces of red from coins of the 12-13th centuries, TPG companies grade them in a completely different way. As a result, they wouldn't be described as such. It is kind of a complicated issue, that only with observation and report from collectors can be narrowed down.
Actually, there are plenty of Roman silver and gold coins with unquestionable original luster. Curating doesn't always mean removal of original luster. Thousands of rusty 1857S double eagle were conserved without any detrimental effects to their luster.
My Trajan sestertius was also struck in orichalcum and, interestingly, also came with a story about being found in mud, although the Tiber River was specified. The above pictured specimen also appears to have no or very little wear and is lighter in color, especially in the protected areas. While not exactly red, it certainly merits special status.
Luster is different than color
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The whole thing with the oldest trace of original mint colour is a more complex subject, when it comes to ancient coins. TPG companies graded those coins different, without the RD, RB or BN designation.
Regarding the rest of coins that TPG companies grade with the above designations, we have stopped on the 6 Bagattini of Venice from 1619 MS 64 RD, mentioned above.
If anyone remembers the Infamous Norweb Hibernia dated 1723, it had (still has?) a RD designation.
Here is an ancient link: https://winsociety.org/newsletter/vol-3/happen_12-03.html
Official PCGS account of:
www.TallahasseeCoinClub.com
Truly a spectacular coin! I was surprised that an even older red (RD) designation copper coin exists comparing to the Hibernia 1/2 Penny dated 1723, for approximately 1 century! I am looking forward for the upcoming auction of the coin. Having a coin in hand from 1600', graded as RD must be thrilling!
Apparently, someone watched this topic from US and published the following article. He made a mistake as the lot on the upcoming auction is a Venice, 6 Bagattini, 1619 coin and not a 1619 Dutch duit, that he for some reason wrote. Interesting analysis though https://coinagerings.org/the-hunt-for-the-oldest-slabbed-red-copper-coin-market-analysis/