Should impacted Registry Sets be retired or just deleted by PCGS without opportunity to retire?
keyman64
Posts: 15,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
It is my understanding that if a person crosses their coins out of PCGS slabs and into competitor slabs & starts a registry over there...then the PCGS certs should be removed from the system since the coin has been cracked out...right?
Many people here know I like Mercury Dimes, so I of course look around from time to time. I am guessing this problem goes WELL BEYOND just Mercury Dimes. Share what series you have noticed with the same problem. Maybe this impacts your favorite series?
Ahhh yes, get to the point, what the heck am I talking about? Here is a small sample of Mercury Dimes, their associated cert numbers, and links to just one registry set at each service impacted. As we know, a coin can be a part of many different registry sets at each service. It looks like ALL coins were not crossed. It looks like only the coins that would cross at the same grade or higher were crossed (in most cases), leaving some in PCGS holders so as to prevent a possible large financial loss. Again, below is just a sample of 10 coins, Is this problem widespread across other coin registry series categories as well? I believe this person might be a major investor/shareholder/part owner at the other service and many of the coins are over there now. If all of the PCGS impacted sets are retired or deleted then obviously everyone with PCGS coins (and is behind him) would move up here. How long ago were all of his coins crossed? Were they crossed for all series? Populations at PCGS should also be corrected by removing all of these coins. It is interesting to compare the photos of the same coins at each service. How big of a mess is this exactly? Is there anything I missed? Yes, he has his own special label over at CACG as well. You can see it when you click on the CACG coin lookup links.
For all Mercury Dime Sets he is only #2 at PCGS but below I list one of his sets that is impacted with these coins. There seems to have been a problem with images showing up consistently for quite some time now but since he has some high grade coins, if you click on the coin number from the set it will take you to coin facts and the image is shown there...or just click on the cert links I show below and they will list a couple sets the coins are a part of etc...you get the idea.:
Here is one of his sets at CACG: https://www.cacgrading.com/registry/561/set/2606/leaderboard/649813
Please share your thoughts.
1916-P PCGS Cert# 36606857 is active but the same coin is now in a CACG holder with Cert# 636503128
Link to coin at PCGS: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36606857
Link to coin at CACG: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/636503128
1917-P PCGS Cert# 80614230 is active but the same coin is now in a CACG holder with Cert# 570577986
Link to coin at PCGS: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/80614230
Link to coin at CACG: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/570577986
1917-D PCGS Cert# 31814081 is active but the same coin is now in a CACG holder with Cert#
Link to coin at PCGS: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/31814081
Link to coin at CACG: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/465856989
1918-P PCGS Cert# 36897897 is active but the same coin is now in a CACG holder with Cert# 668745418
Link to coin at PCGS: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36897897
Link to coin at CACG: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/668745418
1920-D PCGS Cert# 21465069 is active but the same coin is now in a CACG holder with Cert# 434217742
Link to coin at PCGS: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/21465069
Link to coin at CACG: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/434217742
1920-S PCGS Cert# 31814091 is active but the same coin is now in a CACG holder with Cert# 164851486
Link to coin at PCGS: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/31814091
Link to coin at CACG: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/164851486
1921-D PCGS Cert# 82619386 is active but the same coin is now in a CACG holder with Cert# 521602231
Link to coin at PCGS: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/82619386
Link to coin at CACG: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/521602231
1923-P PCGS Cert# 36534098 is active but the same coin is now in a CACG holder with Cert# 906878018
Link to coin at PCGS: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36534098
Link to coin at CACG: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/906878018
1924-P PCGS Cert# 84352721 is active but the same coin is now in a CACG holder with Cert# 797914995
Link to coin at PCGS: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/84352721
Link to coin at CACG: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/797914995
1925-P PCGS Cert# 15634439 is active but the same coin is now in a CACG holder with Cert# 736143592
Link to coin at PCGS as a 67FB: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/15634439
Link to coin at CACG as a 66+FB: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/736143592
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
Comments
Hansen started crossing a lot of his sets to CACG in 2024. CACG and David Lawrence both put out press releases stating he was doing it.
To date, I dont believe any of his PCGS registry sets have been retired or taken down.
https://blog.davidlawrence.com/dell-loy-hansen-starts-crossing-historic-collection-to-cac-grading/
https://www.cacgrading.com/post/the-d-l-hansen-collection-and-its-trimes
Ah, thanks, I was not aware. So the question remains...should someone be allowed to build a set with PCGS, crack out the coins, send them elsewhere for grading and their registry...and have the PCGS registry sets remain? The coins only exist in one holder and PCGS only allows PCGS slabbed coins. Am I missing something?
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
You're not missing anything. If the rules were followed, the sets would have to be retired or deleted.
And potentially 10s of thousands of coins removed from PCGS, Coinfacts, Pop Reports, etc. Seems quite messy.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
Were the inserts from the cracked out coins returned to PCGS?
Same problem with coins being sold. If their sold, or cracked out, you no longer have them... or have them in a PCGS holder. They should not be in your Registry set. A little off track, don't mean to hijack. I received 5 coins in the mail today. Two of the five are still in somebody else's Registry set.
I have no specific knowledge of that, but typically PCGS will remove certs from their online database when you send back in the certs, and there are numerous coins I understand Hansen crossed where the PCGS cert is still active, so read into that what you will.
I can only guess, no. However, when you look up PCGS cert coins in the CAC database that had CAC stickers to verify those CAC stickers, those PCGS cert numbers are no longer active in the CAC Sticker system. So, the CAC Sticker system was updated but not the PCGS system for anything...or so it seems to me.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
I agree that is a problem but as a new owner of the coins you can request the coins be removed from the prior owner's registry so at least there is that. In this thread, there is the impact of 10s of thousands of coins in mostly top registry sets.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
Maybe ALL of the PCGS Certs currently in DLH registry sets could be put in some type of suspension black hole until it is proven they are still in PCGS holders? Give him 90 days or whatever. That way, PCGS does not have to do all the work. For each coin proven to still be in a PCGS holder it can stay. For all the others, the certs, photos, population numbers impacted, Coinfacts, etc can be deleted or updated in a massive batch process. Just one idea.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
I have checked out a number of Mr. Hansen's sets and it seems he has both CACG coins, CACG stickered coins. and PCGS coins in the CACG set registry. Some of the coins are crossed to CACG holds while they remain in the PCGS registry. If it is true that PCGS registry set coins must be in PCGS slabs, then Mr. Hansen has violated rules of the PCGS registry and the offending coins should be removed or retired from the PCGS registry. I have at least two sets where he does indeed impact them.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
Shut them down is my opinion - but PCGS has no courage to do so.
WS
this is not a new problem, been happening for as long as the registries have been around. It was several years ago but a member here was bragging about how he had crossed a coin from NGC to PCGS (at a lower grade) and still used the old higher grade NGC cert in the NGC registry. His justification was that the NGC grade was still valid even though the coin was already into PCGS plastic and it was his right to do so since he had "paid" for the NGC grade. Not everyone is virtuous and honorable. There are many ghost sets and sets with ghost certs in both the PCGS and NGC registries. There is no incentive for the TPG's to monitor or police this, until there is an incentive nothing will be done.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
If the inserts were returned to PCGS and PCGS deleted the numbers from their database, wouldn't those cert numbers be automatically deleted from the registry?
I guess there's no incentive to turn the inserts in.
In this thread, there is the impact of 10s of thousands of coins in mostly top registry sets.
Oh I know what you're saying. I have several modern sets that are close to or right behind the person you're referring to. Could it affect my rankings ? Absolutely. Do I think anything will change ? I highly doubt it.
You have put a lot of time and effort into reasearching this issue.
Thank you for doing so.
I agree with you that these coins at the bare minimum should be removed from all of Pcgs's registries.
There were postings about highly rated Pcgs sets not being retired when they were crossed over to the new grading company, CACG.
A lot of talk and opinions were generated but still to this day, no action has been taken by PCGS.
Have you tried to contact @PCGS_Hy to see what his opinions are on this matter?
It is worth a try.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
What concerns me is that POP 1 coins magically are POP 2 and POP 3 when crossed without being deleted in the previous holders……when in fact there may only be one coin. It seems this would lower the value as others could theoretically believe there’s more coins in the higher grades (conceivably one at PCGS, one at NGC, and one at CACG……yet they are all the same coin). Hmmmmmmm………I could see that possibly drastically lowering the value of the coin/s, correct?
Here is one of the prior discussions on the OP post.
A New Years surprise, I've jumped ahead of Hansen!
CrackoutCrackout Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭✭✭January 1, 2024 12:23PM edited January 1, 2024 12:26PM in PCGS
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1099109/a-new-years-surprise-ive-jumped-ahead-of-hansen
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
A blanket deletion of Hansen coins should not be done. Many of his duplicates have been sold, still in PCGS holders. Deleting all those coins from the database would add hassle to all the new owners who care to participate in the PCGS registry, or who would sell to anyone who checks certifications.
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
Did someone suggest a blanket deletion? I thought the conversation pertained to coins that have been crossed to CACG and are no longer in PCGS holders.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well, maybe deletion isn't the same thing as keyman64's "Maybe ALL of the PCGS Certs currently in DLH registry sets could be put in some type of suspension black hole until it is proven they are still in PCGS holders". Regardless, deactivating certs for coins that might still be in PCGS holders is not a good idea, IMO.
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
It looks like I even replied to that thread and at the time I was unsure if his top sets were being moved to CACG. I thought it might just be his 2nd and 3rd ranked sets, not the top sets. Now it seems his top sets have been moved as well.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
The coins currently in DLH Registry sets could be put into a suspension. But going to the topic of the thread, I ask if all of his registry sets should be retired or just deleted. These steps would only impact coins currently in his inventory, not the coins that were possibly sold off long ago. Unless....the coins that were sold were never removed from his inventory and never attempted to be added to the new owner's inventory/sets. Anyway, with the thread title, I am mostly talking about the retirement or deletion of the registry sets. Tracing the coins themselves would be very time consuming but could likely be done...one set at a time per day per employee...and within a few months all would be handled maybe. I dunno. The sets themselves should be deleted I think and let everyone else move up. Our host may not be thrilled about losing many top sets/coins to another service and it will have a large impact on the top coins in CoinFacts too.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
@keyman64 , I agree the sets should be deleted. The PCGS Registry has its all-time lists as well as current leaderboards. When certs are retired, it would be good to retain them in the database, with an obvious no-longer-PCGS-certified flag, and perhaps a reason for and date of retirement. The TVs and CF info can remain, as long as the cert database has all the relevant information.
edit: Just to clarify - If individual coins in sets are demonstrably no longer in PCGS holders, and the set owner has not bothered to update affected sets, I think it would be reasonable for our host to 'deactivate' or delete sets. I don't know if there's an applicable explicit policy.
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
I think the bigger issue and what may be holding the removal/suspension/whatever is the fact that our host will have to admit that so many top tier coins have been moved to a new service. For years, the motto has been, "Best coins live in PCGS holders" and this would tarnish that image.
This is all my humble opinion of course.
That’s an excellent point. But that shouldn’t stop PCGS from taking appropriate action with respect to coins that are known to no longer be in their holders.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It also isn’t fair to others in the registry that are competing with coins/sets that would no longer be the leaders….but still portraying that they are. Hard to compete with ‘virtual’ coins……
This affects 8 of my 10 Mercury Dime sets. On most I am directly behind Hanson. It's not fair, it's not right, & PCGS needs to do something to correct this problem!
Wayne
www.waynedriskillminiatures.com
This is exactly the point of this thread. His sets should be gone and you should be behind Larry.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
For anyone that this impacts, I have suggestions.
Create a spreadsheet for your series documenting ALL of DLH's coins in your series of interest. Take down the cert numbers, download the TrueViews, note the grades, if there is a sticker etc etc. Then find his corresponding set over at CACG and do the same basic thing for cross reference. Take note of what the pops are and what they should be!
Why? As soon as the PCGS registry sets are deleted, you will have a much more difficult time tracing coins and pops.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
Interesting post on this topic on the PCGS Registry Forum today....
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1120692/pcgs-set-registry-40th-anniversary-rules-forthcoming-and-competition-integrity
Thank you, I replied to Charles in that thread. It is encouraging that Charles (and team?) are now aware of the problem, if they weren’t already, and plan to address it prior to the next registry awards for the 25th Anniversary of the PCGS Registry.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
I also replied agreeing with you keyman64. I also brought up the problem of buying coins only to find out they're still in someone else's set. Pet Peeve of mine.
My understanding of this issue (from data) is not a problem with coins that he sold, but only with coins that he successfully crossed from PCGS holders to CACG holders. As mentioned above, this can be determined when the PCGS cert # of a CAC stickered coin is plugged into the CAC “Look Up” tool, and it shows that PCGS cert # is no longer active. It’s not difficult to see the new CACG cert # for that same coin. I did this about eight months ago for a Proof Barber Dime. That dime is still in his PCGS Registry set!
Ugh!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
This does not impact me since I sold my Morgan set (except the CC's and a couple others) years ago and would not have been at or close to number 1 or 2 or.... But I still check in on the Morgan registry so I got curious about. The two set links I glanced at are below (might have missed a couple since I didn't dig in). I found the following duplicated between pcgs and cac:
1885 O 1886 S 1887 S 1891 S 1892 P 1894S 1896 S 1897 S 1898 O 1901 S 1904 S
One - The 1901 P has been removed from the pcgs set.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/dollars/morgan-dollars-major-sets/morgan-dollars-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1878-1921/publishedset/152238
https://www.cacgrading.com/registry/473/set/47/leaderboard/649964
I do not see that anyone has tagged Mr Brush. Since it is known that DL is partnered with DLH and has been involved in developing and sometimes selling DLH inventory perhaps he would have some insight into who crossed the coins (where pcgs certs are....) and/or maintains the DLH registry.
@JBatDavidLawrence
https://youtube.com/watch?v=hYCRaWPlTIE Sophie Lloyd, guitar shred cover of Panama (Van Halen)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=dOV1VrDuUm4 Ted Nugent, Hibernation, Live 1976
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Either/or here. It would be nice to give someone else a chance as well, jmo
Its obvious that Mr. Hansen has not followed the rules of the registry. Give him due warning to get his sets in shape or have PCGS delete them all.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
You could just choose to look at the bright side. If a coin is crossed to CAC and the label not turned in to PCGS, that might make it easier to buy the next PCGS coin that comes to market.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I am one that have some still lister to protect myself. When I get a request to remove or release the coin, I release it right away. There are 2 dimes that walked out of my case at a show. I will not release them.
In my opinion, for those you sell, it's ok to keep those in your set until you know they safely arrive in the hands of the buyer, and the buyer is satisfied. Regardless, the fact that you release them "right away" when requested, is good (and is sufficient).
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
If JA is in NJ & CACG is in VA, who is grading the slabs?
And how are they any better than PCGS graders?
I'm just confused
My Saint Set
I have no problem with that Steve. Actually makes a lot of sense.
JA spent a LOT of time training the CACG graders, who were already highly experienced, to get everyone on the same page. Yes, grading is subjective, but my sense is that many dealers and knowledgeable collectors feel that as a generalization, that CACG grading is somewhat more conservative and more consistent than PCGS, and THEY feel that’s better. That doesn’t mean YOU have to feel it’s better, or even agree with their thoughts. That’s ok. But there’s no need for you to be confused. You don’t need to buy coins in CACG holders, nor coins with CAC stickers, and you can choose to not submit your coins to CAC for stickering to see if they pass or fail to sticker.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
What happens when he retires?
He's 66 now.
Will the personality cult follow a new leader?
Or will everybody start re-slabbing?...Again?
My Saint Set
He’s not confused, Steve.
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
When I consign coins to an auction house, I choose to release those coins from my Registry once I know the coins have safely arrived. Nowadays, some potential bidders check, and a few may choose not to bid if the coin has not yet been released. For ME, I want as many people bidding as possible on my consigned coins. I don’t want to do ANYTHING to dissuade a potential bidder!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
JA stated a few years ago that he signed a 10-year contract, and plans to fulfill that contract. My guess is he will retire at that point. CACG will continue on their same path. It’s likely that CAC stickering would, at a minimum, continue automatic re-stickering new holders that retained the same cert number, but have been reholdered for any reason, including getting a plus via Reconsideration.
As for stickering new coins once JA retires? No one knows! What I do know though, is that when JA retires, if CAC ceases evaluating new coins/cert numbers for stickering, then the present premium differential CAC stickered coins have over their non-stickered counterparts, will very likely increase, with a fixed supply of CAC stickered coins.
I don’t believe it’s a cult that pays a premium for coins that merit CAC stickers. It’s collectors and dealers making informed decisions! Try it if you dare!
Will everyone start re-slabbing when JA retires? In my opinion, as explained above, there’s no need for that!
IF you recognize that CAC stickered coins tend to sell quicker and at higher pricing than nonstickered coins, will you decide to maximize value of your collection for when the time comes to sell, whether by you, or your heirs, or does that not matter?
I believe some “Anti-CAC” collectors (probably not you) refuse to submit their upper three-figure coins and higher to CAC for stickering to maximize value, for fear of seeing many of their coins fail to sticker.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Someone is attempting to draw this discussion in an entirely different direction. It might be wise @winesteven to let the side circus die without commenting.
As for the topic in the OP. Deletion of coins proven to not be in PCGS holders will take time and effort. Time and effort take personnel trained to do the job. Personnel trained to do the job cost money. Therefore, there is very little incentive for PCGS to undertake this task if it does not affect their bottom line.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I “Agree” on both points, but the “system” only allows me to push the Agree button once, lol.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I just looked at the list of Mercury Registry Sets at PCGS and he has retired 12 out of the 15 sets. It is nice to see this progress but he remains among the current finest lists for the these three so there is still work to be done:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/half-dimes/mercury-dimes-major-sets/mercury-dimes-fb-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1916-1945-cac/7568
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/half-dimes/mercury-dimes-specialty-sets/mercury-dimes-fb-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1916-1945/2156
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/half-dimes/mercury-dimes-specialty-sets/mercury-dimes-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1916-1945/2158
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.