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North/South/Central American Coins Thursday, let's see them!

15657585961

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  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 2,031 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka very nice! Really tough mint! That 1874 coin saw a lot of action in its youth :D really nice bunch.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,593 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Abuelo said:
    @MrEureka very nice! Really tough mint! That 1874 coin saw a lot of action in its youth :D really nice bunch.

    I’m intrigued because I think the 1878 may be a contemporary counterfeit. The relatively crude die work and the rarity of the date are the best clues, as is the different shape of the eagle’s head. Granted, I don’t know this series well, so don’t take my suspicions as gospel.


    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 2,031 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2025 8:41AM

    @MrEureka you very well may be right. The coin is circulated enough that some of the details are lost. The cactus seems to be right. The snake head might be right. The eagle is otherwise too worn to say much. Clearly I do not knownthe weight yet I assume NGC was happy with it... Will take a look into the specific GA series more in detail...

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 2,031 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2025 6:11PM

    Well, I do not own any other Guadalajara from the same time but Kirk Menczer did (even one with same assayer), thankfully. I chose these 3 coins because are relatively contemporary (1870s) and at least one of them was well circulated (I did not use the 71 and 73 that MrE showed as I thought were too far removed and instead added the 81). So here we go:



    And the reverse:



    While the coin in question (1878) is very worn and borderline damaged, I can make few comments:

    • The snakes for 1877 and 78 have prognathism.
    • The 77 and 78 snake have a similar curvature at the level of the eagle's neck, the 74 seems different.
    • The eagle in 78 is too worn to really make much more comments. The wings appear ok, yet the difference in the head is noted. Who knows if this is due to the fact that is worn/damaged or something more nefarious.
    • The legends in the 78 obverse are too worn to say much, at least to me.
    • The cacti in 77 and 78 are very similar in marks despite how worn it is.
    • On the reverse, the oak and laurel leaves look really good to me, even when the stems in the 78 are a bit thicker (keep in mind that the coin is minuscule). That difference might be due to how circulated the coin is.
    • The suspicious part to me comes in the reverse, in the CENTAVOS as the T and the N are suspect. That said, if you look at the T in the 1874 is clearly different from the 1877. But the N looks different. Again, damage? Circulation? Something else?

    • Again, I can tell little about the weight as I do not know it. The coin does look like silver.
    • If counterfeit, they did go for a lot of effort and cost for little reward as even then, 10 C was not a lot of money.

    That said, I can see why @MrEureka raised the very good point. Personally (with all my bias) I can be convinced is the real deal, but would not go as far as to testify in Congress about it. Still, very happy to own it. Comparing uncirculated coins to AG3 is a difficult business.

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 2,030 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Abuelo There are some differences as you say, particularly the pointed N. However, it’s very close in most other details where contemporary counterfeits usually aren’t. I think I’m with you in the “real” camp.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 2,031 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @scubafuel at the same time if you see the N in REPUBLICA MEXICANA, the N is basically normal.

  • threefiftythreefifty Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    Great discussion on a really interesting coin @Abuelo. I don't know the series well enough to comment specifically on the authenticity, but you could always crack it out and get a weight/specific gravity/XRF reading to get more information.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 2,031 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2025 7:20PM

    If you know, you know...

    And if you do not know, here is Abuelo to tell you :D This is one of the classic errors in Mexican numismatics (one of many) and the classic in the series of "Peso Fuertes". The assayer initials should be AM but were inverted to MA. Apparently they discovered the mistake as the coin is very rare. One appearance in Heritage's archives and 3 in Stack's that I was able to find (for the type). After I finished with the dose of Christmas' decorations this afternoon (as @Boosibri knows) I was wasting time on eBay... and then I wasted a lot of money :D

  • MEJ7070MEJ7070 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You had me at Mayan ballplayer.

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MEJ7070 said:
    You had me at Mayan ballplayer.

    It's called the Disco de Chinkultic and it is currently housed in the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. (A trip to Mexico City is worth it solely to see this museum.)

    I've also found out that Pablo Luna knew about this piece as it's mentioned in his book, but not illustrated.

    Translation:
    I have recently been informed that of the three previous onzas, there are restrikes from the 1980s, in addition to interspersed dies, "mule" onzas combining designs, in quantities above what was expected, and even with new designs such as pre-Hispanic representations of Xochipilli and the Chikultic Disc.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,593 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pruebas said:
    I just bought this today. It is apparently a new discovery. Still in its original cellophane from the Mexican Mint.

    The obverse is the 1978 onza pattern using the design of the 1949 onza (see KM-Pn211).
    This design was ultimately rejected for the inferior (IMHO) design ultimately selected.

    The reverse design is a Mayan ballplayer similar to what was used on the 20 Pesos starting 1980.
    (This design may have also been used on a medal, but I can't seem to find it.)

    It has a plain edge, so perhaps it's a restrike, made after 1978 using muled dies.
    Finding the medal with this reverse design might lend a clue.

    This isn’t the same die, but it’s close enough that I wonder if an unadopted version of the 1968 die was used for your piece.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @pruebas said:
    I just bought this today. It is apparently a new discovery. Still in its original cellophane from the Mexican Mint.

    The obverse is the 1978 onza pattern using the design of the 1949 onza (see KM-Pn211).
    This design was ultimately rejected for the inferior (IMHO) design ultimately selected.

    The reverse design is a Mayan ballplayer similar to what was used on the 20 Pesos starting 1980.
    (This design may have also been used on a medal, but I can't seem to find it.)

    It has a plain edge, so perhaps it's a restrike, made after 1978 using muled dies.
    Finding the medal with this reverse design might lend a clue.

    This isn’t the same die, but it’s close enough that I wonder if an unadopted version of the 1968 die was used for your piece.

    Interesting observation. But the medal you pictured isn't a product of the Mexican Mint. The Mexican Mint surely wouldn't stoop so low as to take inspiration from someone else!

    Private mints often used famous Mexican iconography because it attracted buyers. It would be especially useful when lots of gringos were coming to Mexico for the Olympics with money for souvenirs.

    I'm going to keep searching for a Mexican Mint medal with that exact die design as it might be a clue as to when it was restruck.

    Despite the fact the piece is a "restrike," it's still rare and valuable. I have never heard of such a piece until yesterday.

    I wonder if these were restruck around 1981/1982 when the new Libertad onzas (gold and silver) were being proposed?

  • 1984worldcoins1984worldcoins Posts: 722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pruebas said:
    I just bought this today. It is apparently a new discovery. Still in its original cellophane from the Mexican Mint.

    The obverse is the 1978 onza pattern using the design of the 1949 onza (see KM-Pn211).
    This design was ultimately rejected for the inferior (IMHO) design ultimately selected.

    The reverse design is a Mayan ballplayer similar to what was used on the 20 Pesos starting 1980.
    (This design may have also been used on a medal, but I can't seem to find it.)

    It has a plain edge, so perhaps it's a restrike, made after 1978 using muled dies.
    Finding the medal with this reverse design might lend a clue.


    Amazing discovery! New stuff from the 80's!!

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2025 9:49PM

    @Abuelo said:
    Happy Thursday! This is a crazy story. This coin sold at the Kirk Menczer sale by Stack's just few weeks ago. Then, I found it on eBay with a price lower than at the auction. I did not hesitate and got it. I cannot imagine the seller put is at a buy it now price lower from what he or she paid at Stack's. So cannot understand it, but I am happy. I think is both a 4/2 and B/M. NGC only mentioned the overdate, not the overassayer.


    Did you ask the seller (after you bought it, of course)?

    Maybe it wasn’t paid for and was returned to the consignor (the executor in this case) and now they are trying to unload it.

    Maybe an administrative mixup on the part of the eBay seller?

    There’s only one way to know!

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 2,031 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2025 3:41AM

    @pruebas I did not. I thought was not a good idea.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At least wait until you have it in hand.

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,606 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And wait to see if more are listed

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 2,031 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    And wait to see if more are listed

    You are 10000% right!

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @7Jaguars said:
    I've always liked this 1995 Guatemala 50 Quetzals but not sure if it is actually a government issue (sorry for the terrible pictures):


    I think those were unofficial patterns from a private minting operation in Britain. ICN or something like that.

    There was a big auction of that material in the late 90s with large lots of these in various metals. They included Peru and Cuba, maybe some other countries.

    But I agree with you the Quetzal is quite well done.

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    really nice!

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • SoCalBigMarkSoCalBigMark Posts: 2,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wassup party people! Chat GPT...

  • SoCalBigMarkSoCalBigMark Posts: 2,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Little tweak...

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 2,031 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 2,030 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pruebas what a post to end the year with! Incredible.

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bosox said:
    I will add my most significant 2025 acquisitions. All in all, a very good year.

    I bought several lessor Canada cents, but this one was the real prize. 1858 PC-2 Uniface Pattern Cent, NGC MS-65 Brown. About six known. ex. Prince. Photos by Sincona AG.

    The rest of my big purchases were not Canada cents, but Canada gold. 1908-C sovereign in PCGS SP-65. Mintage 636 pieces. Pop 14/11. Photos by Heritage.

    1909-C sovereign in PCGS SP-65. Pop 4/0. PCGS has only graded eight of these in total. A much more difficult coin to find in specimen than the more well-known 1908-C specimen. Photos by Heritage.

    1913 Ten Dollar gold in MS-65. Pop 34/1 and tough to find with clean fields. Photo by PCGS.

    Wow! Don't even want to know what these set you back! I recently bought a "biggie" that seems to be caught in Customs or some such as it is now over two weeks since Auction at Baldwin's ....

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • sylsyl Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭

    Readers should be warned to wear sunglasses when opening a "bosox" recent purchase.

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bosox said:
    I will add my most significant 2025 acquisitions. All in all, a very good year.

    I bought several lessor Canada cents, but this one was the real prize. 1858 PC-2 Uniface Pattern Cent, NGC MS-65 Brown. About six known. ex. Prince. Photos by Sincona AG.

    My kind of coin! Fantastic!

  • bosoxbosox Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2025 8:54PM

    The details around the lower knee look slightly different to me. Very similar design but maybe modified and a different die. Maybe my eyes deceive me, but the roughly circular design device looks like a slightly different shape on each.

    Numismatic author & owner of the Uncommon Cents collections. 2011 and 2025 Fred Bowman award winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson award winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca award winner.

    http://www.victoriancent.com
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bosox said:
    The details around the lower knee look slightly different to me. Very similar design but maybe modified and a different die. Maybe my eyes deceive me, but the roughly circular design device looks like a slightly different shape on each.

    I don’t have the silver piece in-hand yet. It’s still at a friend’s house in Mexico. I’ll confirm when I have them both together.

  • SonnyDSonnyD Posts: 204 ✭✭✭

    Private Mint:
    Casa Atraddis, Mexico
    Numismatic collectors commemorative 1oz silver medal.
    1 of 285


    Ounce by ounce the stack grows .

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 2,031 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SonnyD that is a puzzling piece with many Mexican motifs, the Alexander the Great bust and a US Liberty Head? Not to mention the Catholic Monarchs. I wonder how they came with the selection?

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Abuelo said:
    @SonnyD that is a puzzling piece with many Mexican motifs, the Alexander the Great bust and a US Liberty Head? Not to mention the Catholic Monarchs. I wonder how they came with the selection?

    From my understanding, this “numismatic ounce” will be an annual release, with various numismatic themes each year. The guy who made them is currently the president of the Mexican Numismatic Society and a collector/dealer.

    Agreed though, Mexican and ancients is some eclectic mix. There’s even a Morgan Dollar in there.

  • SonnyDSonnyD Posts: 204 ✭✭✭

    @Abuelo said:
    @SonnyD that is a puzzling piece with many Mexican motifs, the Alexander the Great bust and a US Liberty Head? Not to mention the Catholic Monarchs. I wonder how they came with the selection?

    This is piece celebrating numismatic collectors and their achievements. Not just for Mexico type numismatics.

    Ounce by ounce the stack grows .

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 44,826 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SonnyD said:
    Private Mint:
    Casa Atraddis, Mexico
    Numismatic collectors commemorative 1oz silver medal.
    1 of 285

    I have always liked the "coins on coins" theme. Cool piece!

    Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.

  • Sergey74Sergey74 Posts: 229 ✭✭✭

    These two...



    Sic semper tyrannis.

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