@bgr said: @Basebal21 What do you think of Morton (TT) and their chances if he can stay on the field. I pick a team somewhat randomly each year to follow - since you know.. Badgers and all, and this season it's been the Red Raiders. That o-line seems like the biggest weakness... but fun team to watch and Morton has a NFL arm (I think).
TT has been my Big 12 winner for a while. With Weeks injured at LSU Rodriguez at TT is probably the best LB in the country. TT has a few NFL draft able guys on defense that creates problems whether Morton is healthy or not.
I like them better with Morton healthy which hes not fully, but I dont think they need him to beat UCF or WVU. I would probably sit him this week but doesnt seem like theyre going too
Either way should both be wins. BYU still has to play Cincinnati and TCU which could get them in as the second team. TCU has Houston as well were its looking like TCU will determine who the second team is
@Maywood said:
. And if you think about it, a loss to Michigan would probably just mean an additional home game for the Buckeyes this season. I doubt all those southern teams want to come to frigid Ohio in late December to play football.
It actually makes sense that fans would root for Ohio State.
If the bowl games were played up north instead of in the south, The BIG TEN would have the best bowl record among any conference every year.
Some good games to watch this weekend as the regular season conference schedule closes in on Championship weekend and the final CFP Poll only a month away. In a strange twist "Selection Sunday" will be on Pearl Harbor Day.
--- Minnesota vs. Oregon/Wisconsin vs. Indiana/South Carolina vs. Texas A&M are all home games that should present no problems, but a miscue at this point against an un-ranked opponent could spell disaster.
--- Notre Dame vs. Pittsburgh. Are the Irish a contender or a pretender??
--- Iowa vs. USC. My upset special, I think the Trojans are goin' down!!
--- Oklahoma vs. Alabama. Probably the Sooners last gasp, but the 'Tide has shown they keep these games close.
--- Texas vs. Georgia. Lucky for the Bulldogs this is a home game, but Texas has been improving. Maybe a ranking switch.
--- UCLA vs. Ohio State. I'm glad this is a home game.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
The OSU fans here crack me up. OSU is a 31.5 point favorite against a horrendous UCLA team, thats not a game worth mentioning unless youre betting on it.
This is pretty much a must win for Texas. Georgia can afford another loss but Texas still has A&M on the schedule left.
Bama will just depend if DeBoer can get the team pumped up for the game or not. Bama wont need to have their A game with the Sooner injuries but Bama is missing a number of guys on the OL. Bama will have to bring at least their B/B+ game and this is the type of game they have been losing under DeBoer
ND are pretenders but their schedule will give them a shot. They should beat Pitt whose about to lose their next three games and ND will win out and get their playoff spot even though the two legit teams they played they lost too
as great a story as Indiana has been, it just feels like it's only a matter of time before they get bullied. and i think that big bully is going to be Ohio St
i can easily envision the Buckeyes beating them by 3 touchdowns
@galaxy27 said:
as great a story as Indiana has been, it just feels like it's only a matter of time before they get bullied. and i think that big bully is going to be Ohio St
i can easily envision the Buckeyes beating them by 3 touchdowns
Maybe. But that game if it happens will basically be a home game for Indiana, as Bloomington is only a one hour drive from Indianapolis.
Multiple allegations over a period of time. The ones this week havent been made public yet but were enough for him to take a leave of absence as the Baylor AD for the next 4 weeks which means he had to be removed from the CFP committee
I'm sure we'll know all the details in time, what I read is that it's not tied to anything with the CFP. More important to me is how this will affect that body and their voting.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Bringing up games from the 1970s like they matter cracks me up
As far as voting for the CFP Utah was the replacement so the Big 12 keeps their spot. Id be surprised if his stances were drastically different and voting shouldnt change much
Not one from the 1970s is even playing in the NFL anymore much less college lol but sure a team being over a 30 point favorite has a hard game because of something that happened half a century ago lol
@Basebal21 said:
Not one from the 1970s is even playing in the NFL anymore much less college lol but sure a team being over a 30 point favorite has a hard game because of something that happened half a century ago lol
So those Alabama Natty's in the 70's dont matter? I bet to most Tide fans they certainly do.
@Basebal21 said:
Not one from the 1970s is even playing in the NFL anymore much less college lol but sure a team being over a 30 point favorite has a hard game because of something that happened half a century ago lol
So those Alabama Natty's in the 70's dont matter? I bet to most Tide fans they certainly do.
They dont matter one bit for a game thats happening this year. They only matter for program prestige.
I don't really think anyone is "worried" that Ohio State will lose this weekend, just as we weren't concerned a few weeks back when you were running the same train down the same tracks. But if you've followed this school for as long as I have you come to understand that upsets happen, no matter how many points the Buckeye's are favored by. I've been "football conscious" since shortly after that 1962 game, seen a lot happen to different teams. If you think history and rivalries from 40-50 years or more ago don't matter than you're not as astute as you think you are.
It matters.
I will ask the pertinent question: When Alabama lost the first game this season, was Florida State a good team?? No, they weren't. But they beat Alabama like a drum and then did the same for two more weeks against different versions of The Little Sisters Of The Poor before the reality of being "not a good team" took hold.
Things happen, good teams lose to bad teams all the time. Now go ahead and twist the sheets because it was the 1st game or something else. You were ready to lynch DeBoer after that game.
Blah, blah, blah........................Nothing ever changes with you.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
What happened 5, 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago etc doesnt matter. Theyre completely different rosters and coaching staffs.
I get being worried about covering such a large spread but week in and week out saying UCLA and Perdue games are important, they arent unless they lose.
Losing to Michigan would be an upset, losing to UCLA would be a fineable offense and already got Franklin fired this year for doing so. It would be like if ND lost to Navy. They can play their C game and still win.
FSU was good the first week and DeBoer did a terrible job of getting Bama ready for that game. FSU had a lot of injuries since then and also has a coach that will likely get fired at the end of the year
Louisville and Clemson both did their best to lose the game but I have never seen so many unsportsman like penalties in my life in a single game most of which were extremely weak. Those refs were horrendous as was Louisvilles kicking game. Theyre out now for the ACC championship game with that loss
While the historical look at UCLA- OSU may not shed much light on today's game, it is still interesting to note that UCLA was the underdog in three of their four wins against the Buckeyes. I suppose it might be up for debate as to which was the greatest upset of the three. I suspect the Rose Bowl would top that list followed by the 17-0 shut at Columbus in 1980. The highly ranked Buckeyes stumbled badly at the Coliseum in 1962 loosing 9-7.
I remember reading an LA Times Sports article back in the early 1970s by Sportswriter Jim Murray. It featured 10 of the greatest UCLA winning games of all time for their program (in his opinion). The 14-12 1966 Rose Bowl win against Michigan State was the greatest. The 1962 win over the Buckeyes made the list- I just don't remember where it was on that list.
There is a reason for OSU fans to be alittle nervous even though the Buckeyes are heavy favorites as they have routinely been in this position with the Uclans only to end up with an unthinkable outcome.
Not suggesting that happens today but today's game is the first match between them as Conference opponents... Something Jim Murray, like most of us back in the day, never thought would be possible.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
There is a reason for OSU fans to be alittle nervous even though the Buckeyes are heavy favorites as they have routinely been in this position with the Uclans only to end up with an unthinkable outcome.
if the Bruins beat the Buckeyes today i'll do the Paqui one-chip challenge and post it to YouTube
edit: and i won't take a sip of water for a half hour
and don't look now, but the #3-ranked Aggies are showing up and showing out to the tune of a 20-3 deficit at home against the 6-loss South Carolina Roosters
Called midway through the 2nd quarter, now Wisconsin's Carter Smith is 7/11 for 91 yards. So much for bold predictions.
And in other NCAA football news, another pretender and current SEC front runner Texas A&M trails the South Carolina Gamecocks 20-3 at the 2:00 minute warning of the 1st half. Barring a comeback, it looks like we might have a re-shuffle at the top!!! Never saw this coming. Whatever the outcome, a Top 5 team shouldn't struggle like this with an un-ranked opponent, especially at HOME and favored by 19 points. But.....................upsets sometimes happen, no matter what the spot.
Look out Buckeyes, don't let the Bruins ambush you tonight.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
And the Aggies are now giving it to the dog, down 27-3. South Carolina has TD passes of 50 and 80 yards plus a 17 yard fumble scoop-and-score by the defense.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
@Maywood said:
An aside to @perkdog, you can relax as the Irish lead comfortably 21-3 just before the half.
I was debating dropping the hammer on a dreaded College parlay with Notre Dame being the one that held me back, funny because A&M was a leg I didn't even give a seconds thought about lol
@Coolstanley said: About all the people who kept saying Texas a@m should be #1
There are at least 4 of them.
3 Texas A&M(4) 9-0 1518
I will preemptively say "When If's and But's are candy and nuts, every day will be Chrstmas" because I know a certain member, who claims to root for Navy and denies the existence of an "SEC fan", will appear with a multitude of reasons. Stuff that says South Carolina is really better than their record and Texas A&M has reasons why they didn't play well.
Hogwash!!!
The Aggies may fight back to make a game of it, they may even win the game. But as the Number 3 team it should never come to this. I say kick them outa the Top 10. And in the meantime, Indiana is up 24-7 in the 4th quarter over another unranked 6 loss team.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
@Maywood said: @Coolstanley said: About all the people who kept saying Texas a@m should be #1
I will preemptively say "When If's and But's are candy and nuts, every day will be Chrstmas" because I know a certain member, who claims to root for Navy and denies the existence of an "SEC fan", will appear with a multitude of reasons. Stuff that says South Carolina is really better than their record and Texas A&M has reasons why they didn't play well.
Hogwash!!!
The Aggies may fight back to make a game of it, they may even win the game. But as the Number 3 team it should never come to this. I say kick them outa the Top 10. And in the meantime, Indiana is up 24-7 in the 4th quarter over another unranked 6 loss team.
The fact of the matter is that A&M played a horrible first half and SC capitalized on 3 huge plays - 2 on offense and 1 on defense. 2nd half of a College football game. We'll see if A&M can claw back.
After this game is over we get to reflect and decide how far they deserve to fall. If A&M returns to form and pulls it out, which they totally might... we can debate which loss would have been worse.
But what is true here is that I never said A&M should be ranked #1, and I didn't repeat it over and over. Don't steal my lines about Christmas!
Don't look now but the Aggies are on their way back. The Gamecocks better get it together or the upset will slip away. Such is the advantage of the Home Crowd.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
@Maywood said:
And the guilty conscience shows up, that is unless you are an alt for that other guy.
It is a little obnoxious that I have to continually correct your delusions which you use to promote that other people have said what only rattles around in your vacuous mind. Try to have some integrity and stop being such an absolute embarrassment.
Comments
TT has been my Big 12 winner for a while. With Weeks injured at LSU Rodriguez at TT is probably the best LB in the country. TT has a few NFL draft able guys on defense that creates problems whether Morton is healthy or not.
I like them better with Morton healthy which hes not fully, but I dont think they need him to beat UCF or WVU. I would probably sit him this week but doesnt seem like theyre going too
Either way should both be wins. BYU still has to play Cincinnati and TCU which could get them in as the second team. TCU has Houston as well were its looking like TCU will determine who the second team is
Fire AJ Preller
If the bowl games were played up north instead of in the south, The BIG TEN would have the best bowl record among any conference every year.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
Some good games to watch this weekend as the regular season conference schedule closes in on Championship weekend and the final CFP Poll only a month away. In a strange twist "Selection Sunday" will be on Pearl Harbor Day.
--- Minnesota vs. Oregon/Wisconsin vs. Indiana/South Carolina vs. Texas A&M are all home games that should present no problems, but a miscue at this point against an un-ranked opponent could spell disaster.
--- Notre Dame vs. Pittsburgh. Are the Irish a contender or a pretender??
--- Iowa vs. USC. My upset special, I think the Trojans are goin' down!!
--- Oklahoma vs. Alabama. Probably the Sooners last gasp, but the 'Tide has shown they keep these games close.
--- Texas vs. Georgia. Lucky for the Bulldogs this is a home game, but Texas has been improving. Maybe a ranking switch.
--- UCLA vs. Ohio State. I'm glad this is a home game.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Texas vs Georgia is a huge game for Manning, he has a chance to get back on the hype train if he can throw a solid game in Georgia
The OSU fans here crack me up. OSU is a 31.5 point favorite against a horrendous UCLA team, thats not a game worth mentioning unless youre betting on it.
This is pretty much a must win for Texas. Georgia can afford another loss but Texas still has A&M on the schedule left.
Bama will just depend if DeBoer can get the team pumped up for the game or not. Bama wont need to have their A game with the Sooner injuries but Bama is missing a number of guys on the OL. Bama will have to bring at least their B/B+ game and this is the type of game they have been losing under DeBoer
ND are pretenders but their schedule will give them a shot. They should beat Pitt whose about to lose their next three games and ND will win out and get their playoff spot even though the two legit teams they played they lost too
Fire AJ Preller
I think USC wins against Iowa. USC is a different animal at home.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
as great a story as Indiana has been, it just feels like it's only a matter of time before they get bullied. and i think that big bully is going to be Ohio St
i can easily envision the Buckeyes beating them by 3 touchdowns
Maybe. But that game if it happens will basically be a home game for Indiana, as Bloomington is only a one hour drive from Indianapolis.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
Tough task for Texas as Georgia has only lost one game at home since 2019.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
Both teams in conference championship games get allocated tickets. Its up to fans who buy the rest and how many resell their tickets.
If OSU gets past Michigan if Indiana has a "home game" OSU fans have no one to blame but themselves
Fire AJ Preller
--- Mack Rhoades leaves role as CFP selection committee chairman and takes leave of absence as Baylor AD.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
I wonder what happened?
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
Multiple allegations over a period of time. The ones this week havent been made public yet but were enough for him to take a leave of absence as the Baylor AD for the next 4 weeks which means he had to be removed from the CFP committee
Fire AJ Preller
@coolstanley said: I wonder what happened?
I'm sure we'll know all the details in time, what I read is that it's not tied to anything with the CFP. More important to me is how this will affect that body and their voting.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
Ohio State is 4-4-1 all-time against UCLA. The 75 Rose Bowl game upset cost Woody his 6th National Championship.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
Your Meme muspelled "B!G"
Bringing up games from the 1970s like they matter cracks me up
As far as voting for the CFP Utah was the replacement so the Big 12 keeps their spot. Id be surprised if his stances were drastically different and voting shouldnt change much
Fire AJ Preller
Says the above bot.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
Not one from the 1970s is even playing in the NFL anymore much less college lol but sure a team being over a 30 point favorite has a hard game because of something that happened half a century ago lol
Fire AJ Preller
So those Alabama Natty's in the 70's dont matter? I bet to most Tide fans they certainly do.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
They dont matter one bit for a game thats happening this year. They only matter for program prestige.
UCLA is currently not a good football team
Fire AJ Preller
I don't really think anyone is "worried" that Ohio State will lose this weekend, just as we weren't concerned a few weeks back when you were running the same train down the same tracks. But if you've followed this school for as long as I have you come to understand that upsets happen, no matter how many points the Buckeye's are favored by. I've been "football conscious" since shortly after that 1962 game, seen a lot happen to different teams. If you think history and rivalries from 40-50 years or more ago don't matter than you're not as astute as you think you are.
It matters.
I will ask the pertinent question: When Alabama lost the first game this season, was Florida State a good team?? No, they weren't. But they beat Alabama like a drum and then did the same for two more weeks against different versions of The Little Sisters Of The Poor before the reality of being "not a good team" took hold.
Things happen, good teams lose to bad teams all the time. Now go ahead and twist the sheets because it was the 1st game or something else. You were ready to lynch DeBoer after that game.
Blah, blah, blah........................Nothing ever changes with you.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
What happened 5, 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago etc doesnt matter. Theyre completely different rosters and coaching staffs.
I get being worried about covering such a large spread but week in and week out saying UCLA and Perdue games are important, they arent unless they lose.
Losing to Michigan would be an upset, losing to UCLA would be a fineable offense and already got Franklin fired this year for doing so. It would be like if ND lost to Navy. They can play their C game and still win.
FSU was good the first week and DeBoer did a terrible job of getting Bama ready for that game. FSU had a lot of injuries since then and also has a coach that will likely get fired at the end of the year
Fire AJ Preller
Louisville and Clemson both did their best to lose the game but I have never seen so many unsportsman like penalties in my life in a single game most of which were extremely weak. Those refs were horrendous as was Louisvilles kicking game. Theyre out now for the ACC championship game with that loss
Fire AJ Preller
Notable games today
Notre Dame @ Pittsburgh
Oklahoma @ Alabama
Iowa @ USC
UCLA @ Ohio State
Texas @ Georgia
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
My bold prediction for the Wisconsin-Indiana game is that Wisconsin will have under 50 yards passing today.
While the historical look at UCLA- OSU may not shed much light on today's game, it is still interesting to note that UCLA was the underdog in three of their four wins against the Buckeyes. I suppose it might be up for debate as to which was the greatest upset of the three. I suspect the Rose Bowl would top that list followed by the 17-0 shut at Columbus in 1980. The highly ranked Buckeyes stumbled badly at the Coliseum in 1962 loosing 9-7.
I remember reading an LA Times Sports article back in the early 1970s by Sportswriter Jim Murray. It featured 10 of the greatest UCLA winning games of all time for their program (in his opinion). The 14-12 1966 Rose Bowl win against Michigan State was the greatest. The 1962 win over the Buckeyes made the list- I just don't remember where it was on that list.
There is a reason for OSU fans to be alittle nervous even though the Buckeyes are heavy favorites as they have routinely been in this position with the Uclans only to end up with an unthinkable outcome.
Not suggesting that happens today but today's game is the first match between them as Conference opponents... Something Jim Murray, like most of us back in the day, never thought would be possible.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Why do. I feel. Notre Dame is going struggle in Pittsburgh today?
I think they'll win but I don't believe they will have an easy time
I've always had a fondness for Pitt, a High School classmate played there as an OL(tackle) and blocked for Tony Dorsett when he won the Heisman.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Go Carter Smith.. true freshman. Against Washington it looked like he was throwing with his non-dominant arm.
if the Bruins beat the Buckeyes today i'll do the Paqui one-chip challenge and post it to YouTube
edit: and i won't take a sip of water for a half hour
and don't look now, but the #3-ranked Aggies are showing up and showing out to the tune of a 20-3 deficit at home against the 6-loss South Carolina Roosters
Called midway through the 2nd quarter, now Wisconsin's Carter Smith is 7/11 for 91 yards. So much for bold predictions.
And in other NCAA football news, another pretender and current SEC front runner Texas A&M trails the South Carolina Gamecocks 20-3 at the 2:00 minute warning of the 1st half. Barring a comeback, it looks like we might have a re-shuffle at the top!!! Never saw this coming. Whatever the outcome, a Top 5 team shouldn't struggle like this with an un-ranked opponent, especially at HOME and favored by 19 points. But.....................upsets sometimes happen, no matter what the spot.
Look out Buckeyes, don't let the Bruins ambush you tonight.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
An aside to @perkdog, you can relax as the Irish lead comfortably 21-3 just before the half.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
And the Aggies are now giving it to the dog, down 27-3. South Carolina has TD passes of 50 and 80 yards plus a 17 yard fumble scoop-and-score by the defense.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
About all the people who kept saying Texas a@m should be #1.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
Receipts please.
I was debating dropping the hammer on a dreaded College parlay with Notre Dame being the one that held me back, funny because A&M was a leg I didn't even give a seconds thought about lol
Glad I didn't fire it in!!
@Coolstanley said: About all the people who kept saying Texas a@m should be #1
There are at least 4 of them.
3 Texas A&M(4) 9-0 1518
I will preemptively say "When If's and But's are candy and nuts, every day will be Chrstmas" because I know a certain member, who claims to root for Navy and denies the existence of an "SEC fan", will appear with a multitude of reasons. Stuff that says South Carolina is really better than their record and Texas A&M has reasons why they didn't play well.
Hogwash!!!
The Aggies may fight back to make a game of it, they may even win the game. But as the Number 3 team it should never come to this. I say kick them outa the Top 10. And in the meantime, Indiana is up 24-7 in the 4th quarter over another unranked 6 loss team.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
The fact of the matter is that A&M played a horrible first half and SC capitalized on 3 huge plays - 2 on offense and 1 on defense. 2nd half of a College football game. We'll see if A&M can claw back.
After this game is over we get to reflect and decide how far they deserve to fall. If A&M returns to form and pulls it out, which they totally might... we can debate which loss would have been worse.
But what is true here is that I never said A&M should be ranked #1, and I didn't repeat it over and over. Don't steal my lines about Christmas!
And the guilty conscience shows up, that is unless you are an alt for that other guy.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Don't look now but the Aggies are on their way back. The Gamecocks better get it together or the upset will slip away. Such is the advantage of the Home Crowd.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
It is a little obnoxious that I have to continually correct your delusions which you use to promote that other people have said what only rattles around in your vacuous mind. Try to have some integrity and stop being such an absolute embarrassment.
Crickets now. Huh.
A&M down by 6 points now, it's beyond crazy
I'm questioning whether anyone in this chat was actually watching the game...
Blah, blah, blah.....................it sure is easy to get under your skin!!!
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
I started watching when it was the start of the 3rd quarter after a friend dropped a bomb on SC
Not good
Going for the tie!!!
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
They will. be up by 1 if they get the extra point