Low grade rarity vs. lower cost better grade coins
chesterb
Posts: 968 ✭✭✭✭✭
In general, would you rather have a nice Good 4 rarity or (for the same money) more common dated coins in better grades?
As an example, an 1815 CBH in Good 4 CAC vs. 5-6 better graded more common coins? Another example would be a 1870-CC Seated Quarter in Good 4 CAC vs. 5-6 other Seated Coins for the same amount of money.
I just used those as examples so please don't concentrate on those particular examples. I want to the discussion to focus on the concept.
0
Comments
As long as the low grade rarity was not a details or problem coin I would rather have the low grade rarity.
I prefer rarity over grade but to a point. Ultimately I have to love the coin for its aesthetics. I once owned an 1871-S $10 Gold in PCGS VF20 (less than 100 known). Coin was gorgeous, but the lowest - or one of the lowest graded by PCGS. I got rarity with aesthetics and a great price. Had it been a well worn AG3 or G4, its rarity wouldn't have mattered much to me.
I would prefer rarity, even for details coins. I'd much prefer a VF damaged 1876-s DDO than I would an ms63 1877-s.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
It depends to a certain extent on the degree of rarity but, in general, I'd go for the rare coin. Details doesn't bother me.
Smitten with DBLCs.
I've always kinda done rarity, but that dang @BryceM and his ....collage... got me to makin one of my own today.
It looks fine to me but, damn, his condition dreck sure looks purdy.
Now I keep thinkin maybe I shudda done the same thing..
Shoot, this hobby is maddening.
I say we hang @BryceM as a witch.
Uh-oh!
Most of the low grade coins in my series look terrible, across the board. So no, I don't buy this type of coin no matter how scarce. It's different than with most US coinage where though the surfaces aren't original, many of the coins look decent or nice. Otherwise, I buy what I can find.
Typically I would go for rarity when known examples are under 100. I also go for high grade "Details" grades of true rarities as long as the issue is minor (light cleaning, rim filing, scratch). Especially if the "Details" grade is highest known.
Rarity, but no detail or problem coins. Straight grades only.
First, we have to know if he weighs the same as a duck.
I agree entirely. To me, there is some limit. An ugly rare coin is still ugly. I want to enjoy looking at my coin no matter what.
Normally, I would go for the rarity.....since the 5-6 coins are likely low grade and unappealing... Cheers, RickO
When I started collecting most of the time I went for quantity not rarity or quality. I suspect most beginners do that. It's fun filling holes in those albums. Now that I'm older and wiser I go for rarity. That's mainly because I obtained the common dates in the beginning.
I'm not saying which way is better, just saying what I did. It has always been a hobby for me. If I end up making money on the way or in the end that's a bonus as far as I'm concerned.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
I used to be a key date only guy, but over the years I have rather owned nice early type in higher grade than lower to middle grade key dates. I think the market in general has migrated this way over the past decade as well. I think the days of lower grade to middle grade set collectors have vanished/passed away. Therefore no need to find that key date coin to finish the set, and in most cases creates an overabundance of many of them now.
When collecting a set, you need both the rarities/keys and common dates to finish the set. It is better to start with the common dates while increasing your knowledge of a series.
If collecting type - go for common dates in high grade and quality.
I would take the rarity all day long. Even if it was details, as long as the “flaw” wasn’t too annoying. I have seen many early coins that have no business being in a straight grade holder.
If you are referring to the most widely collected mostly 20th century US key dates, I agree with you. But then, these coins aren't even scarce, much less rare. The type of set collecting you describe is losing appeal because the coins aren't very marketable and are very easy to complete. I expect the lowest quality coins to perform worst financially, as it isn't competitive versus the alternatives in the internet age.
My answer is the same I’ve given for a number of other questions regarding which coin type, date or grade to pursue...Rather than decide ahead of time and limit your options unnecessarily, let the coin come to you. Wait until you see a coin that calls to you and which you really, really want to own. In some cases, that might mean a lower grade, rarer coin, and in others, a more common, higher grade example.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Since I keep a very small collection of around 16 coins, I tend to buy more eye appealing pretty ones. I sometimes keep them on display so they are more fun for me to look at then lower grade coins. I think some of my coins are rare, but its more so a conditional rarity then a rare variety. For example my avatar is a huge 5 digit coin. The rarity is the fact that its a top pop but I suppose the coin itself isn't super rare.
Jb-rarities.com
IG: jb_rarities
A wise old coin dealer (who used to run his own auctions) once told me: “low grade rarities don’t sell.”
I’ve always taken that to heart, but haven’t always heeded the advise. But I have found it’s true.
I'd take the better graded coin for the same money.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Personally, I would start with more common pieces in uncommon condition- i.e. higher grade with strong eye appeal. To me, they make a strong foundation for a solid collection.
Absolute rarity is nice, but takes more knowledge and understanding to appreciate. Often times I'll see a truly rare, but lower grade or problem piece and think that it would be great for an advanced collection (one that already has a great cast to support it) but would struggle on its own.
I think it's a great question and one that most collectors will have to ask themselves.
These guys didn't get the message:
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details/1799-ms/36140
(45 auction sales of 1799 Large Cents in PO1 or FR2. Details coins of all grades excluded.)
Smitten with DBLCs.
In general, I would prefer a rare G-4 coin over several mid-grade more common examples.
Said a bit differently, I prefer rarity over quantity.
I generally prefer MS64 and higher (within my range of comfort). I have done key coins as low as G04 (for retail) but nothing want bulk up on.
Generally demand (in my experience) goes sideways to material in a different series more affordable in high grade than to lower grade material where affordability (of higher grade) an issue.
I have been picking up slabbed world gold coins from the Nordic Hoard and got some good buys. A guy in coin club collects Mexico 50 Peso Gold Centanaros and Cabillito pesos (slabbed). These coins scarcer than US. Many US coins still seem overpriced vs world issues of same time frame.
With the same cost, I would go with low grade absolute rarity than condition rarity. But if there was a top pop involved on the common coin, I would consider paying even more .
I appreciate everyone's comments and it gave me some other things to think about.
One other point. Going by the TPG population data, it is evident that NCLT is displacing the most widely collected US series to some extent. From this, I concurrently surmise that the collectors who transition from this coinage or add something else as a supplement may not find lower grade coins (common or scarce) very appealing. If this is a correct assumption, this is a negative for the future price prospects, generally.
In making this comment though, I still think that a coin has to have something more than scarcity or rarity to maintain a strong price, whether this rarity is based upon quality or absolute numbers. Most scarce or rare coins (however defined) don't really have much to distinguish it and in many instances, the price is disproportionate to the collectible merits.
I'm curious if this dealer had ever sold truly rare coins. There are auctions that have never gotten an 1870-CC quarter, 1874-cc dime or 1864-S $5,$10. Then the dealer would not be speaking from experience. There are many dozens of low grade rarities that have appreciated significantly. I'm thinking Liberty Gold coins and Seated coins, but that list is not nearly complete.
As a former dealer in silver Bust and Seated coins, I've dealt with a lot of low grade rarities. I've found that 1815 Capped Bust half dollars in Good and 1870-CC quarters in Good were excellent selling coins. In fact, I listed an 1815 CBH in Good on my website and it sold instantly. The same thing happened with a Good 1855 Seated dollar. I believe the reason for this is that quite a few collectors can afford one of these coins in Good, but not VF or XF.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I am a more the merrier kind of guy. I would rather have 3 rare, lower grade coins than a single coin of their combined equal value. Qualifiers. I tend to collect R-4+ Seated varieties. My optimal grade range is F-15 to AU-55. Denomination can play a huge role in price, but I try to stay in the under $500 range and greatly prefer $250 or less.
I have posted elsewhere, but here is an example of what I hunt: Most recent purchase
1876-S NGC AU-55 Seated Dime.
Coin has the Jules Reiver pedigree on holder.
Coin is the Fortin 101 which is considered R-4+
Coin has a visible to the naked eye repunched date
Coin has large obvious clash marks on obverse
Coin is A-55 and Fortin states there are no Uncs.so could be top pop
Coin cost $169 including buyer fees so beat all that for the price. james
The lowest grade coin I have bought in the last 50 years or so was a 1799 large cent in PCGS VG-08. The coin has VF sharpness, with environmental issues. Beyond that was a 1796 half dollar in Fine -15. I just don’t buy coins with excessive wear. If I can’t afford a piece that pleases me on some level, I don’t buy it.
Cool thread, interesting perspectives, and I’ve often pondered exactly this. I love and seek choice, original low (er?) grade early American rarities, particularly in old holders. They’re historic, interesting, and I just believe they’ll always be desirable by a potentially dwindling population of hard core collectors - I may be proven wrong, but it’s logical to me.
Here’s a few that illustrate my personal preference.
As a type collector I’m biased, but I would guess that truly rare coins are probably quick sales even though the market is thin. I would guess that coins of “perceived” rarity in lower grades move slowly. I just looked up 16D dimes on eBay and there were 5 pages of them.
I would always chose rarity.
Member here for 5 years
I generally prefer investment grade material MS64 or higher. But sometimes might buy a nice circ CC coin, especially low pops.
If I have to buy a low grade example just to get the rare coin, I’d prefer it to still be aesthetically pleasing. Here’s my F-15 1794 S-20b straight date head of ‘93 example. Higher graded ones aren’t really any nicer but come with astonishing price tags 😲
Empty Nest Collection
Relatively speaking, I'm on a pretty tight budget so it depends on the collecting goals... is it a Series of the same coin (can't avoid the keys), or is it a Type Set? For Type, I try to buy the best specimens I can afford. These typically tend to be more common dates. For a Series... again... it depends on the Series and how many "keys" are to be had.
That said... my 7070 Type set is mostly XF/AU so I could afford to complete it! My Early Copper is all over the map... but my Middle Dates on are mostly VF coins in my album with certified pieces in the AU range... I completed Middle Dates with one of the keys... 1839/6 in VG10-CAC.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Isn't it great that hobby participants have different collecting preferences? There isn't any "right" way to collect.
My focus is on finding coins that have strong eye appeal to me. Such coins can be in most any grade range, although, obviously, better surfaces will be found as the designated grade rises. Absolute rarity matters little to me, although, condition rarity from an eye appeal standpoint (not the highest grade) is what drives my boat. Here are some examples:
AU58 CAC - not a rare coin:
VF35 CAC - somewhat scarce coin:
XF45 CAC - not a rare coin:
From a eye appeal rarity standpoint, it's a "find another like it" challenge.
Lastly, I generally bristle at buying a coin due to some type of obligation - gotta have a key date, buying a coin because the registry says so, buying a coin that someone else thinks I should, etc., buying a coin because it must be a certain grade or appearance fit, etc. However, I have deviated from this with my OGH CAC quarter eagle registry set since I wanted to require those parameters as a collecting challenge for a commonly available series.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I prefer absolute rarity over high grade common coins.
This 1842 $2.50 in F12 is not much to look at - its the lowest graded coin at PCGS - one of 44 in all grades assuming no resubmissions.
Any 1907 $2.50 in MS66 has a comparable PCGS Price Guide Value but is one of 11,335 1907's graded by PCGS, including 508 in MS66.
Despite later adding a higher grade 1842 to my set, I am keeping this lowly F12.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Since I collect Morgans & Peace $'s none are truly rare. With that said, I'd rather have a VG 89CC or G 93-S then an MS67 81-S.
I think much depends on the rarity and demand for the lower graded coin(s). Some coins are scarce, but not many collectors are interested in them.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
OFC
God comes first in everything I do. I’m dedicated to serving Him with my whole life. Coin collecting is just a hobby—but even in that, I seek to honor Him. ✝️
I don't think the prior poster is referring to US coins, since the thread title didn't specify it. If you haven't seen the coins he's posted, I believe he owns quite a few that are at least as scarce if not quite a bit scarcer than those you listed, and not low quality either. Some of the coins in my primary collection are likely scarcer than an 1874-CC dime or 1870-CC quarter, though not sure about the two gold coins you cited.
I'd agree what he stated is usually true for non-US coinage. There aren't that many or as high a proportion of roughly equally scarce or rare US coins vs. any number of non-US series. Too high of a scarcity in a series with limited demand dilutes perception of scarcity. From my observations, most lower quality scarce(r) or rare(r) US coins also look better or much better than the disproportionate dreck available for many non-US series, even down to grades of AG-3.
Collectors normally don't like dreck or at least won't pay (as) high prices for it, no matter how scarce or rare.
Hi WCC,
Ah, I didn't pick up that it was for foreign coins. Interesting thoughts. My only dabble with anything scarce and foreign was South African coins. Its true that there was very little demand for many better dates unless they were VF or higher. An exception was when I tried to buy a low grade 1931 Half crown with an initial mintage of 790, with some damage, at a Bob's store auction. The consensus on the PCGS foreign board was that 50-70 survive. The bidding was way over catalog for a straight low grade coin. I let the other guy have it.
The 1864-S $5 have a survival of about 30 pieces with 25 for the 1864-s $10. In all grades.
Damn, I would buy that date in F-12! A great rare coin! I visit you set from time to time. Love it.
I love looking at mintages and then seeing what PCGS’ experts have to say on their app. When I was looking to purchase an 1893S Morgan, condition (while important) became not as important as just having one due to its perceived availability vs mintage. 100,000 minted vs the expert’s opinions that only 10,000 possibly exist in all grades today. But even in a holder the VF10 that I purchased at the FUN show in Orlando is a beautiful coin, rare, and very intriguing to me!
Yes, there are many legitimately scarce or rare (depending upon definition) 19th century US gold. I'd guess both are scarcer than all but a few I own for the same reason, really low mintages for a circulating coin.
Awesome coins! A 1799 1C like that people would kill for. The 1801 is pretty for the grade and much scarcer than an 1805 or 1807.
That is a really nice coin! It has amazing details for being a VG08.