Silver dollars are getting melted again......
thebeav
Posts: 3,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
I recently picked up a cull dollar lot. So I was shopping around for a price. It doesn't appear that any market makers are interested in playing with these at current spot prices. The highest buy I've seen recently is 27.00. At todays silver spot, they melt at 32 dollars and change. I talked with one dealer that just melted a bag and a half. I imagine this must be happening around the country.
Just may have consequences for future dollar values.
0
Comments
I think the key here is "cull."
Otherwise, problem free Morgans are being saved.
peacockcoins
Yes, of course. But don't forget that at these prices that line shift and even catch a few better pieces. Every bag of culls has some coins that someone would consider OK. Culls have been getting melted all along even back when the furnaces were not so hot.
There are hundreds of millions of silver dollars. How many would have to be melted to make a lick of difference as to the availability or collectabilty of the series?
peacockcoins
I think the word "cull" has changed meaning over the past couple years. Traditionally it meant damaged, slick, bent, scratched, graffitied, dented. I think many dealers are now calling most silver dollars that are raw and circulated as "cull". Has anyone else noticed this?
He who knows he has enough is rich.
If they are sent to a refiner are they really melted? Isn't against the law to melt silver US coins? I bet the refiner has outlets to sell above melt, just my WAG.
bob
over on the pm forum, it's not just the culls
90% can be found for sale at or below spot. there are anecdotal reports that refiners are melting a lot of it. seems more than usual
just received a "silver at .49 over" for random condition random world mint 1 oz
1/10 oz gold random year/condition/mint for 386.40 which is a good deal if you don't mind the problem condition risk
then there is a 1oz gold kangaroo for 3744
seems there are reports more customers are trying to sell rather than buy
“The total combined mintage of all Morgan and Peace silver dollars is not precisely documented, but the Morgan dollar was minted in over 600 million coins from 1878 to 1921, while the Peace dollar had a total mintage of approximately 84 million coins from 1921 to 1935. This suggests a combined total of around 684 million coins.”
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Is it also possible that both gold and silver are now viewed as being significantly overpriced? The real market makers in these metals may now unloading before prices decline. Can't happen? Ask the Hunt brothers.
Tough to do. They are both deceased.
peacockcoins
I think it's perfectly legal to melt down U.S. Silver coins.
It's only a crime if you are destroying currency to defraud the U.S. Government. Intent matters.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
I doubt they are melting them. Not worth the cost of refining, especially when a lot of calls are light. Bid on culls at Upstate $29 and ask is $33. If they can sell them at melt, there is no point in melting them.
Of course if no one is buying at 33, they will melt.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The 1918 Pittman Act was a U.S. federal law, championed by Nevada Senator Key Pittman, that authorized the melting of over 270 million Morgan silver dollars to be sold as bullion to Great Britain at $1 per ounce.
-
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Upon a bit of research, it does appear to be legal to melt them as they are no longer circulating in our money supply.
bob
war nicks can be melted too
oh, and the 1oz and 1/2 ounce gold aren't selling as well as the 10th and quarter
That is a misleading statistic...
Over 270 million Morgan dollars were melted in 1918 under the Pittman Act to be loaned to Great Britain.
https://www.blanchardgold.com/market-news/over-270-million-of-these-coins-were-melted/
The huge mintages of 1921 Morgans and 1921-1922 Peace Dollars were, in large part, to recoin the returned silver.
1921 P/D/S Morgans: 44.6+20.3+21.7
1921 Peace 1.0
1922 P/D/S Peace 51.7+15.1+17.4
= 171.8 million coins
You really should only count them once...
ANA 50+ year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Author: 3rd Edition of the SampleSlabs book, https://sampleslabs.info/
Most of what gets shipped to the refiners is destroyed. Bit there are all sorts of great things that might be spotted and intercepted. I use to get to paw over some of this stuff myself but there was far too much for me to make much of a dent in it. The laws banning such melting were superseded by the later laws. The FED required the ability to destroy the coins it removed from circulation in ''68/ '69.
"seems there are reports more customers are trying to sell rather than buy"
Yes. Most of the world shortfall in silver production is now being covered by US silver speculators most of whom are older people and tired longs. Once interest rates start dropping there will be a pivot from selling to buying. The situation is simply explosive and unsustainable with sovereign nations stockpiling. This is current events not politics. Modern coins and silver dollars both exist as current events as well as their place in time and US history. If selling slows and refinery backlogs evaporate we'll see higher premiums come back.
I tried to summarize the Morgan/peace dollar production/melting previously. Link below and a copy and paste of most of the link. Again, see something out of place, then let me know.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13879084/#Comment_13879084
The Morgan dollar kind of started with the Bland-Allison Act of 1878. This act required the production of 2 million silver dollars per month. This as I understand was due to the mining lobby and used to back the silver certificates. So much of the production was stored in vaults in bags. Prior dollar mintage for the Seated dollars was in the hundreds of thousands per year (not month). So this larger production of Morgan dollars were not necessary for commerce.
This continued with Morgan dollar mintages in the twenty to thirty plus million per year until 1890 (38 million that year) when the Sherman Act canceled the Bland act but required the purchase of a large sum of silver ($4,500,000. per month) to be to coined into silver dollars but did not set a requirement of when or per month. Production slowed in the early 1890's (appears due to economic conditions and the new act) and in 1893 the Sherman act was repealed and Morgan dollar mintage fell to a low in 1895 (under a million).
Silver started to gain again and with new elections and Act of 1898 directed that the silver purchased under the canceled Sherman act be coined into silver dollars. This silver supply ran out in 1904 and the Morgan dollar production stopped.
Then in 1918 the Pittman Act authorized not more than or up to 350 million silver dollars to be melted and used for bullion (silver bars were shipped over seas) and / or used for new silver coinage. This act resulted in about 270 million silver dollars being melted (which was under half the total Morgan mintage).
However, due to the silver lobby, this act also called for the purchase of domestic silver for coinage to replace the just melted silver dollars. The resulted in the monstrous 86 million 1921 Morgan dollar mintage and the start of the Peace dollar production. The Peace dollars continued until 1928 when the requirement of the act to replace the melted silver dollars had been achieved.
The Thomas amendment of 1933 resulted in about 7 million additional Peace dollars in 1934 and 1935. There were additional silver dollars melted under the WWII Silver Act (approximately 50 million).
In the early 1960's there was a demand for silver dollars and with the silver certificates being redeemed and a public law (88-36) it was not necessary for the Treasure to hold all the silver dollars. Thus one source states over 150 million silver dollars were released by the Treasury in the 1960's. This is when some rare dollars became not so rare.
There was also the GSA of mostly CC Morgan dollars in the first half of 1970's and then 1980.
This was not the end as some had hoarded the dollars (example Redfield estimated at 600,000) and some banks had vaults with them stored. One such was the Continental-Illinois Bank of Chicago. It states it was having financial difficulties and thus the 1500 bags of silver dollars (1,500,000. silver dollars) were sold in the early 1980's.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=hYCRaWPlTIE Sophie Lloyd, guitar shred cover of Panama (Van Halen)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=dOV1VrDuUm4 Ted Nugent, Hibernation, Live 1976
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Bottom line, there will be no shortage of Morgan dollars if some are melted.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
The only way there might ever be a shortage of Morgan dollars is if 300 Million more of them were melted. Have no fear there will always be Morgan dollars available.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
Is this a good time to mention that there are something like 50,000-75,000 total trade dollars in existence?
EDIT: On second thought, maybe 75-100k is a more accurate range.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
"Melting" is an involved process; is that just a term for some other process than literally sending them to the refinery, literally melted down at very high temps. with the copper and impurities pulled out?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13967477/#Comment_13967477
The United States currently prohibits melting down pennies and nickels, with some exceptions. The prohibition does not apply to silver coins.
There is a reasonable supply of Morgan and Peace Dollars. As the price of silver climbs, the movement may open the door for further thought in connection with the 40% silver Ike Dollars. Have these been melted in the past. I suspect the 1971-s and 72-s could have been. In thinking about the .3161 silver content, the price point to purchase them in contrast to other silver, at what point will these gain some traction? I suspect these can be bought easily in the $12-13 range.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I've melted some myself.
Most that I melted were really bad - worn-out, filed, holed, corroded, etc.
Some others didn't work out right when over-struck and so I melted them too.
I usually make them into a "hockey puck" shape and sell to a local refiner.
But I also recently bought some random pre-1921 AU-UNC coins from the "junk" boxes at three local coin shops.
The prices ranged from $40 to $53. The shops apparently had no intention of sending these types of coins to a smelter because they are worth more than melt. I filled up a tube that I had for these.
Does that include dimes, quarters and halves? They circulate
Yes, I was seeing someone on X the other day talking about buying "culls" for $32 back in May when silver was about $10/oz cheaper. I was thinking that wasn't any deal. I think they are now calling average circ, common dates culls for some reason.
I offered up a stack of true culls that I have for $32 but got no response, lol.
This wholesaler has the following buy prices on dollars:
BUYING SILVER DOLLARS PAY
CULL DOLLARS WITH DATE NO HOLES $27.00
WORSE THAN CULLS $25.00
VG OR WITH LITE PROB PRE 21 $30.00
F PRE 21 $32.50
XF+ PRE 21 $36.50
AU+ (SLIDER) PRE 21 $39.00
BU PRE 21 $46.00
VG+ 1921 MORGAN $28.00
VG+ PEACE $27.00
https://www.azcoinexchange.com/buylist.htm
It is entirely legal to melt any US coin, current or obsolete. except cents and "nickels" (five cent pieces).
Now, are large cents included in the ban even though they are obsolete? I have no idea.
After refining costs and depending on what you use for silver spot, it seems that upstate price is a fair one provided you figure in the shipping costs. So it’s probably not worth melting them, but I’m sure it’s going on somewhere.
Depends if one is buying or selling!