@redraider: nice detail! Right now, the two coins have equal billing as 2* varieties in Rick’s book. As long as they’re not in the FS guide, though, PCGS won’t “officially” recognize them. For me, that doesn't matter a lot as I like “meaty” varieties like these two.
Btw, if yours is graded MS64, it’s the finest known. Congrats on a great pickup!
It’s been a long time since I posted here - almost 3 months. The thread was buried in page 24!
Yesterday in “Saturday morning coffee with coins”, I posted a new FE I just acquired. The pics below are ones that I DIDN'T post in that thread:
It’s a PCGS MS64+ & has exceptional eye appeal & beautiful toning! Strike is imperfect with weakness in the upper obv & corresponding lower rev. There’s a very cool clash mark just below the eagle’s beak that makes it appear it bit off a little too much! Also it appears to be carrying a “pin” in one of its wings for additional protection. I think my imagination is a little wild, but these features add to the coin’s coolness factor. I think! Anyway, feels good to revive this thread!
@Copperindian said: @POCKETCHANGE: nice to meet you & chat at the show Eric! I owe you big time for creating this thread - FE’s are my fave series!
Ken
Great meeting you and thanks for showing me your new acquisitions!
Finally! After winning this one in the Blay GC auction some 14-15 months ago, I submitted for the EEPS to pair with the green CAC. And now, it’s double stickered!
@Copperindian said:
Finally! After winning this one in the Blay GC auction some 14-15 months ago, I submitted for the EEPS to pair with the green CAC. And now, it’s double stickered!
I noticed the old TV above replaced the newer one below:
Incredibly enough, they are the same coin! Good to have the old TV restored - it’s essentially a 100% match to the coin. The “newer” one looked nothing like it.
Flyer Frustration:
My partner & I were/are of like mind & submitted this coin for an upgrade to 66+ from 66.
PCGS declined & kept it at 66. The lighter pics we felt supported our decision. There’s a couple marks, nothing serious that should have kept it from a + grade. To be fair to our hosts, it’s certainly not a 67.
But, we did obtain a bean, which had to be a no brainer for CAC:
Essentially, it’s double stickered. Here’s the old TV, which matches the TV above except for ID#. The EEPS has the old #, CAC the new one.
We’re going to wait a couple months & try again. In our opinion, it compares favorably & more to the 66+ that auctioned through GC a couple months ago.
@Copperindian said:
Flyer Frustration:
My partner & I were/are of like mind & submitted this coin for an upgrade to 66+ from 66.
PCGS declined & kept it at 66. The lighter pics we felt supported our decision. There’s a couple marks, nothing serious that should have kept it from a + grade. To be fair to our hosts, it’s certainly not a 67.
But, we did obtain a bean, which had to be a no brainer for CAC:
Obviously it is a very top end 66 and deserving of a +. Good luck with resubmitting. And thank you for sharing your PCGS submittal experience as it is very insightful. I sometimes think they do keep track of the number of times you have resubmitted and eventually award your perservereance.
@Copperindian I’m a big believer in presenting a coin as well as possible for a Recon attempt. That would have meant sending the coin to CAC prior to the first submission. Now that you have the CAC but lost the EEPS, I’d send it back to Rick before the next attempt at PCGS. I’ll get flamed for this suggestion, but if I really wanted the best chance at the plus, I’d also send it to CMQ. Looks like a fantastic coin.
@POCKETCHANGE: good luck! Btw, we didn’t submit as a recon, consequently the new ID#. This time around I’m inclined to go recon with both stickers, but I’ll leave it up to my partner as he’s better about navigating these things than I am.
@Copperindian said: @POCKETCHANGE: good luck! Btw, we didn’t submit as a recon, consequently the new ID#. This time around I’m inclined to go recon with both stickers, but I’ll leave it up to my partner as he’s better about navigating these things than I am.
Good point, I should have noticed that. Generally if I know the coin isn’t going to make a full point (or I don’t want it to), I think Recon is the better route, especially if stickered. The exception to that would be if coin is already + graded.
@Copperindian said: @POCKETCHANGE: absolutely agree Eric! But we were nearly 100% certain; I was stunned when they kept it at 66.
Ken
I could be mistaken, but I don’t think the graders see the current grade on a Regrade, so IMO they’re more likely to default to a whole grade than a plus. @winesteven has had a ton of success getting plus upgrades on Recons too.
@Copperindian said: @POCKETCHANGE: absolutely agree Eric! But we were nearly 100% certain; I was stunned when they kept it at 66.
Ken
I could be mistaken, but I don’t think the graders see the current grade on a Regrade, so IMO they’re more likely to default to a whole grade than a plus. @winesteven has had a ton of success getting plus upgrades on Recons too.
Correct, in that the graders don't see what the "old" grade was on the coin that PCGS cracked out for a Regrade. Only after the grader and Finalizer determine the grade, do they (or someone else) then compares them, and whichever is higher is the grade that then goes on the new holder. As such, I agree with @pocketchange that with human nature, the graders may be focusing more on a whole grade. That could be good for a 65 or 65+ moving to a 66. but not good for a 65 moving to a 65+ via Regrade. My SENSE is Reconsideration may be the better route than regrade for a 65 to go to a 65+, as the grader would likely pay more thought to if that coin merits a plus. Again, just my sense, with NO data to back that up.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven I find your reconsideration logic to be spot on. I had resubmitted this 1885 IHC PR67BN as a regrade
With no positive (+) results. This coin is 68 quality, but that would make it a POP1/0 . And perhaps the POP is a consideration in the grading process, and it did not quite meet their 68 quality standard. I can only find a few toning spots that would keep it from a 69.....but that grade is way beyond my grading perspective.
OINK, thanks for your kind words. Regarding the pop situation potentially being part of the grading process, I’m not sure I agree. Several of my plus upgrades via reconsideration brought those coins to a pop level that the PCGS Price Guide level more than doubled, or almost tripled. Not often, but a few.
One of those is my 1866 Two Cent piece, bought as a MS66RD w/CAC. I bought it in October 2020 from GC. At that time the PCGS Price Guide was at $7,500. I paid up for the coin, paying $8,531 with the bp, as I recognize that coins are not commodities where every 66RD are worth the same as each other. Coins with better eye quality are worth more. Since it was so nice, I sent it back to PCGS for Reconsideration. It then got that little plus. None graded higher, and I don’t recall at that time how many others were at that top 66+RD grade, but today there are four. At that time, the Price Guide for 1866 MS66+RD was $20,000. Today, the PCGS Price Guide is at $25,000. By the way, this coin is still the Coin Facts Plate Coin for 1866 2 cent Red coins!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
The last two pics are important. It shows as a S-9, but it’s now confirmed as the ultra rare S-1. Pics 3&4 show the diagnostics. #3 shows the doubling on the “1” & “8”. Pic 4 shows the repunching on the outer E in CENT & on the inner part of the N.
It’s a 62 due to a modest amount of small marks. I concur with the grade. But, it’s also a EDS, which makes it the #2 ranked example known. There have been about 5 examples accounted for. Finally, it has really nice eye appeal with a rich coppery finish.
Update 4/15: it’s official - the S-9 has been properly updated to the correct S-1:
This is my S-3 1856, graded PR65+ with an Eagle Eye Photo seal
I had all my coins spread out on a dining room table at my cousin’s house while I was at FUN. He asked for the tour, I gave it to him. At the end, just looking at all the obverses, he said this was the prettiest coin I had in the whole set. I was a little taken aback, and maybe reflexively started defending other coins, but I think he was right. The dang thing is a cameo, at least on the obverse, and might as well be a 67. Were it not for a little alloy impurity on the reverse, it would be a 67, and I wouldn’t get to own it.
Currently the #1 PCGS Registry Set: “Flying Eagle Cents Complete Variety Set Proof (1856-1858)”. When I retire it, it will rank #3 all time. A few of the coins in this set were also part of the #1 & #2 sets.
Yesterday I shipped the set off to a dealer I selected to handle the sale of the entire set. It was time. There wasn’t much I could do to improve it, plus these are so rare collectively that they have to be marketed properly to sell. While I considered HA, GC & EERC to handle the sale, I chose this particular dealer as 1) I’ve known him for a long time (@ FUN we actually figured I was his first customer); 2) I’ve seen his work & continued to buy nice coins from him over a period of years; & 3) I accepted & enthusiastically agree with his plan as far as going about the sale. I’ll reveal the dealer in a separate thread I’ll start in a couple weeks, once he gets started & progresses through the various stages of the sale. Included in the thread will be separate posts discussing each of the 9 coins individually, including a number of photos in addition to those above.
So, stay tuned. Even if one has little or no interest in flyers and/or flyer proofs, it might be both interesting & fun to follow the developments as they unfold.
@alaura22: I’m doing a reveal in a couple weeks when he’s made some progress & gets this underway. But Mike, you can always PM me & if you’re right, I’ll let you know. Btw, he verified he received them today; not bad - just sent yesterday.
Ken
@Copperindian said: @alaura22: I’m doing a reveal in a couple weeks when he’s made some progress & gets this underway. But Mike, you can always PM me & if you’re right, I’ll let you know. Btw, he verified he received them today; not bad - just sent yesterday.
Ken
A recent purchase which completed an "old time" set, which includes the 1856, 1857, 1858 Small Letter and this one, the 1858 Large Letter. I'll leave the die varieties to the specialists. This is PCGS graded MS-64.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
A recent purchase which completed an "old time" set, which includes the 1856, 1857, 1858 Small Letter and this one, the 1858 Large Letter. I'll leave the die varieties to the specialists. This is PCGS graded MS-64.
So glad you found the 1858 LL you’ve been looking for. And she’s a beauty. Congrats!
Comments
@gorebels:
Your “oddball” is a pattern - the PT1. It’s distinguished by 4 leaves under the “E” in STATES.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
@redraider: nice detail! Right now, the two coins have equal billing as 2* varieties in Rick’s book. As long as they’re not in the FS guide, though, PCGS won’t “officially” recognize them. For me, that doesn't matter a lot as I like “meaty” varieties like these two.
Btw, if yours is graded MS64, it’s the finest known. Congrats on a great pickup!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
Thanks, I knew it to be an impaired pattern but nothing more.
The only one that I have. Lg letters Low leaves FS-901
It’s been a long time since I posted here - almost 3 months. The thread was buried in page 24!
Yesterday in “Saturday morning coffee with coins”, I posted a new FE I just acquired. The pics below are ones that I DIDN'T post in that thread:
It’s a PCGS MS64+ & has exceptional eye appeal & beautiful toning! Strike is imperfect with weakness in the upper obv & corresponding lower rev. There’s a very cool clash mark just below the eagle’s beak that makes it appear it bit off a little too much! Also it appears to be carrying a “pin” in one of its wings for additional protection. I think my imagination is a little wild, but these features add to the coin’s coolness factor. I think! Anyway, feels good to revive this thread!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
I remember the thrill of getting my first Flying Eagle by mail order back in the early 1960's.
My favorite thread (found buried on page 10). This is my newest FE:
It completed a trade with a long time collector of the series. Nice deal for both of us!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
I love that coin! SL proofs were perfection for the series (and the winner of the 12 pc pattern set competition!)
Wonderful coin Ken!
INYNWHWeTrust-TexasNationals,ajaan,blu62vette
coinJP, Outhaul ,illini420,MICHAELDIXON, Fade to Black,epcjimi1,19Lyds,SNMAN,JerseyJoe, bigjpst, DMWJR , lordmarcovan, Weiss,Mfriday4962,UtahCoin,Downtown1974,pitboss,RichieURich,Bullsitter,JDsCoins,toyz4geo,jshaulis, mustanggt, SNMAN, MWallace, ms71, lordmarcovan
Under under bidder:
$22k in tonight’s GC auction. Beautiful piece & seldom available at this grade level. I made a strong bid but it was only 3rd best!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
My one and only. Type set coin. Lg Letters, NGC VF-25
From the FUN show:
While it’s not one I “needed”, I found it irresistible! Both stickers, OGH & just a nice, likely undergraded coin in this collectible grade.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
@POCKETCHANGE: nice to meet you & chat at the show Eric! I owe you big time for creating this thread - FE’s are my fave series!
Ken
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
Great meeting you and thanks for showing me your new acquisitions!
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Finally! After winning this one in the Blay GC auction some 14-15 months ago, I submitted for the EEPS to pair with the green CAC. And now, it’s double stickered!
Still holds the top spot in the PCGS pop.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
She’s a beauty Ken!
That’s an absolute stunner. Don’t forget the CMQ sticker.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
@POCKETCHANGE: I should Eric! I’ll join you as a triple sticker guy. Actually, I could make it 4 - the one below was developed for Stewart:
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
Pleasant surprise - it’s back:
I noticed the old TV above replaced the newer one below:
Incredibly enough, they are the same coin! Good to have the old TV restored - it’s essentially a 100% match to the coin. The “newer” one looked nothing like it.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
Flyer Frustration:
My partner & I were/are of like mind & submitted this coin for an upgrade to 66+ from 66.
PCGS declined & kept it at 66. The lighter pics we felt supported our decision. There’s a couple marks, nothing serious that should have kept it from a + grade. To be fair to our hosts, it’s certainly not a 67.
But, we did obtain a bean, which had to be a no brainer for CAC:
Essentially, it’s double stickered. Here’s the old TV, which matches the TV above except for ID#. The EEPS has the old #, CAC the new one.
We’re going to wait a couple months & try again. In our opinion, it compares favorably & more to the 66+ that auctioned through GC a couple months ago.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
Obviously it is a very top end 66 and deserving of a +. Good luck with resubmitting. And thank you for sharing your PCGS submittal experience as it is very insightful. I sometimes think they do keep track of the number of times you have resubmitted and eventually award your perservereance.
@Copperindian I’m a big believer in presenting a coin as well as possible for a Recon attempt. That would have meant sending the coin to CAC prior to the first submission. Now that you have the CAC but lost the EEPS, I’d send it back to Rick before the next attempt at PCGS. I’ll get flamed for this suggestion, but if I really wanted the best chance at the plus, I’d also send it to CMQ. Looks like a fantastic coin.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
@POCKETCHANGE: you are the original triple sticker guy, so no flaming from here!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
I actually just submitted my triple stickered FE for Recon this week. Fingers crossed.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
@POCKETCHANGE: good luck! Btw, we didn’t submit as a recon, consequently the new ID#. This time around I’m inclined to go recon with both stickers, but I’ll leave it up to my partner as he’s better about navigating these things than I am.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
Good point, I should have noticed that. Generally if I know the coin isn’t going to make a full point (or I don’t want it to), I think Recon is the better route, especially if stickered. The exception to that would be if coin is already + graded.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
@POCKETCHANGE: absolutely agree Eric! But we were nearly 100% certain; I was stunned when they kept it at 66.
Ken
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
I could be mistaken, but I don’t think the graders see the current grade on a Regrade, so IMO they’re more likely to default to a whole grade than a plus. @winesteven has had a ton of success getting plus upgrades on Recons too.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Correct, in that the graders don't see what the "old" grade was on the coin that PCGS cracked out for a Regrade. Only after the grader and Finalizer determine the grade, do they (or someone else) then compares them, and whichever is higher is the grade that then goes on the new holder. As such, I agree with @pocketchange that with human nature, the graders may be focusing more on a whole grade. That could be good for a 65 or 65+ moving to a 66. but not good for a 65 moving to a 65+ via Regrade. My SENSE is Reconsideration may be the better route than regrade for a 65 to go to a 65+, as the grader would likely pay more thought to if that coin merits a plus. Again, just my sense, with NO data to back that up.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Good advice @POCKETCHANGE & @winesteven. Recon it is (& showing the double stickers this time around). Stay tuned - in a couple months anyway.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
@winesteven I find your reconsideration logic to be spot on. I had resubmitted this 1885 IHC PR67BN as a regrade
With no positive (+) results. This coin is 68 quality, but that would make it a POP1/0 . And perhaps the POP is a consideration in the grading process, and it did not quite meet their 68 quality standard. I can only find a few toning spots that would keep it from a 69.....but that grade is way beyond my grading perspective.
OINK
OINK, thanks for your kind words. Regarding the pop situation potentially being part of the grading process, I’m not sure I agree. Several of my plus upgrades via reconsideration brought those coins to a pop level that the PCGS Price Guide level more than doubled, or almost tripled. Not often, but a few.
One of those is my 1866 Two Cent piece, bought as a MS66RD w/CAC. I bought it in October 2020 from GC. At that time the PCGS Price Guide was at $7,500. I paid up for the coin, paying $8,531 with the bp, as I recognize that coins are not commodities where every 66RD are worth the same as each other. Coins with better eye quality are worth more. Since it was so nice, I sent it back to PCGS for Reconsideration. It then got that little plus. None graded higher, and I don’t recall at that time how many others were at that top 66+RD grade, but today there are four. At that time, the Price Guide for 1866 MS66+RD was $20,000. Today, the PCGS Price Guide is at $25,000. By the way, this coin is still the Coin Facts Plate Coin for 1866 2 cent Red coins!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
There is no white dot on the coin.
Really TOUGH NEWP:
The last two pics are important. It shows as a S-9, but it’s now confirmed as the ultra rare S-1. Pics 3&4 show the diagnostics. #3 shows the doubling on the “1” & “8”. Pic 4 shows the repunching on the outer E in CENT & on the inner part of the N.
It’s a 62 due to a modest amount of small marks. I concur with the grade. But, it’s also a EDS, which makes it the #2 ranked example known. There have been about 5 examples accounted for. Finally, it has really nice eye appeal with a rich coppery finish.
Update 4/15: it’s official - the S-9 has been properly updated to the correct S-1:
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
This is my S-3 1856, graded PR65+ with an Eagle Eye Photo seal
I had all my coins spread out on a dining room table at my cousin’s house while I was at FUN. He asked for the tour, I gave it to him. At the end, just looking at all the obverses, he said this was the prettiest coin I had in the whole set. I was a little taken aback, and maybe reflexively started defending other coins, but I think he was right. The dang thing is a cameo, at least on the obverse, and might as well be a 67. Were it not for a little alloy impurity on the reverse, it would be a 67, and I wouldn’t get to own it.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
The End of an Era:
PR62 S-1
PR64 S-2
PR64 S-3
PR63+ S-4
PR65 S-5
PR66 S-9
PR64+ CAM
PR65 SL
PR65 LL
Currently the #1 PCGS Registry Set: “Flying Eagle Cents Complete Variety Set Proof (1856-1858)”. When I retire it, it will rank #3 all time. A few of the coins in this set were also part of the #1 & #2 sets.
Yesterday I shipped the set off to a dealer I selected to handle the sale of the entire set. It was time. There wasn’t much I could do to improve it, plus these are so rare collectively that they have to be marketed properly to sell. While I considered HA, GC & EERC to handle the sale, I chose this particular dealer as 1) I’ve known him for a long time (@ FUN we actually figured I was his first customer); 2) I’ve seen his work & continued to buy nice coins from him over a period of years; & 3) I accepted & enthusiastically agree with his plan as far as going about the sale. I’ll reveal the dealer in a separate thread I’ll start in a couple weeks, once he gets started & progresses through the various stages of the sale. Included in the thread will be separate posts discussing each of the 9 coins individually, including a number of photos in addition to those above.
So, stay tuned. Even if one has little or no interest in flyers and/or flyer proofs, it might be both interesting & fun to follow the developments as they unfold.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
Really incredible Flying Eagle's Copperindian! I have never owned an 1856. Have an 1858 SL as part of a Proof set. Will follow your sale progress.
Proof 66 CAC
@Coinbert: she’s a BEAUTY!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
Wow Ken, quite an impressive and near impossible set to assemble. Let us know when you sell to watch the progress. Best of luck with your sale. Zack.
@Copperindian
Ken,Stunning.............OMG
If we guess who the dealer is would you confirm?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
@alaura22: I’m doing a reveal in a couple weeks when he’s made some progress & gets this underway. But Mike, you can always PM me & if you’re right, I’ll let you know. Btw, he verified he received them today; not bad - just sent yesterday.
Ken
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
Ken, wow! Maybe I will get a few friends back. You built an incredible collection!!!
I'll let you do the big reveal, Can't wait
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
A recent purchase which completed an "old time" set, which includes the 1856, 1857, 1858 Small Letter and this one, the 1858 Large Letter. I'll leave the die varieties to the specialists. This is PCGS graded MS-64.
So glad you found the 1858 LL you’ve been looking for. And she’s a beauty. Congrats!
Nice!!!
Very nice!
A recent pick-up in 64...
TBD