eBay doesn't care; does PCGS?
burfle23
Posts: 2,508 ✭✭✭✭✭
Same fakes, different dates.
Best, Jack.
2
burfle23
Posts: 2,508 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
You would have to be a complete idiot to buy that as a PCGS coin. If you aren't any more knowledgeable about what you spend your money on than that maybe you shouldn't spend it.
I know,,,,, we have to protect people from themselves,,,,,,,
Maybe not.
Man, that generation PCGS holder must be even more rare than the 108 holder...until they make more.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The quality on that holder is trash.
I can't even read the cert #.
89 Bucks for a fake coin in a fake slab? - maybe if you are a fake coin in a fake slab collector.........
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Love that label, they put in the work on that one.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Wow
i could fake that
Checking the seller's feedback there are two "positive" ebay automated feedbacks," This seller successfully completed a order" What the heck is that about? Ebay automated feedback?
I think eBay policy is to accept postings of offers of counterfeits for sale if they are cheap.
I spotted a really obvious counterfeit of a 1794 dollar for $89 on eBay and pointed it out to them. It was not stamped as a counterfeit as prescribed as required by law. Their response was that the offering did not violate their policies.
It was my understanding that years ago PCGS had one on one relationship with eBay. That involvement would most likely never allowed this stuff to happen.
WS
@PCGS_Hy
When we encounter a suspect PCGS graded item (coin 'and/or' holder) for sale, like the one in the OP, what would PCGS like us to do about it? For example, do you want us to ignore it, contact the seller, contact PCGS, etc.?
Great question! @PCGS_Moderator ?
Hi there!
We always recommend doing your research before purchasing any coin. This can be using our Cert Verification tool, ensuring you're buying from a reputable seller, or ensuring the seller has a money-back guarantee that is enforceable before buying.
In cases where you are certain the item is a fake PCGS holder/coin, we recommend reporting the seller or listing to eBay. From there, if you would like to report it to PCGS, you can contact us using our Contact Us form with screenshots and links to the listing, just like you did here.
PCGS Customer Care Representative
Need Assistance?
Visit our Help & Support page.
maybe we're thinking about the problem all wrong, and should be grateful to the scammers
what would happen if every coin on ebay was listed correctly and genuine?
people would write bots that automatically buy coins listed well below their price guide value and snipe auctions for them
its fun to think about unintended consequences
Coin Photographer and Videographer
https://www.youtube.com/@FriendlyEagle7
Help might be on the way.
Cross-posted from another thread:
I encourage others to do their own research, but I just read a news article that seems to imply that the flood of fake coins from China might be coming to an end, or at least be severely curtailed.
Chinese sellers and manufacturers have used a loophole to send goods directly to consumers tax free (customs or tariff). The "duty free de minimus" exemption has apparently been eliminated for things coming from China (only).
Instead of an $800 exemption for merchandise mailed or shipped to consumers, there will be no exemption and a minimum tax of $25 per item. Even if the fakes would pass inspection the cost would be prohibitive.
That's my reading of a detailed article that I read. I'll be interested in what others hear about the changes.
@PCGS_Hy, most of us who post here know how to do our research before buying coins. And many of us have been reporting counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS holders to eBay for a long time.
However, in the past few months, (even in cases of blatant counterfeits) when we’ve reported to eBay, we’ve received canned replies stating that the listings weren’t in violation of their policy. However lax eBay use to be in addressing reports of counterfeits, they’ve become far worse.
I urge PCGS to take this matter seriously and to take this up with EBay. The present situation is extremely harmful to the hobby - including PCGS and other grading companies - and getting worse.
Edited to add: I have flagged this post in the hopes that other PCGS reps will see it, too.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Additionally, lately support requests submitted through the PCGS webpage are taking 3-5 days or longer for a response. That response time is simply unacceptable for this kind of an issue.
I agree with @MFeld. PCGS should become more aggressive when fake coins are offered in fake PCGS holders. I thought that this would be a priority after attending a PCGS FUN luncheon several years ago.
even better, submitting links to foreign sites selling counterfeits
What exactly is it that PCGS is expected to do? The amount of time and resources put into chasing down fake slabs would be extreme, and would accomplish very little. There will always be more being produced.
Most of these slabs and the coins inside are very bad fakes, so for the most part I consider the matter of counterfeit slabs to be a non-issue.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Hy,
Thanks for the response.
Regarding the suggestion about contacting PCGS. I certainly could have missed it, but I did not see an obvious "request type" on the "contact us" page for these reports. For example, "report a fake".
Since it makes sense for all of these pending reports to go to 'one place', you might want to review the "request type" options.
The matter that you consider a “non-issue” harms countless unknowing buyers and is terrible for our hobby.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I expect them to protect their product, their brand, and the industry whatever the cost. It's not much to expect them to reach out to ebay and establish a back-channel priority reporting and response mechanism for fake slabs.
@PCGS_Hy - I might be remembering this incorrectly. However, I thought that someone at PCGS had responded to one of my other posts on this topic long ago and was going to have a thread pinned to the top where forum members could post links and information regarding counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS holders.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Ok, but how many people are actually buying these? Frankly, these are generally bad enough that at some point it must be the buyer’s responsibility for not doing their due diligence.
The bottom line though is that this is not a solvable issue. There will always be counterfeits being produced, and when they are being produced overseas there is very little that can be done about it. I highly doubt either eBay or PCGS have the capacity or manpower to continually chase these down.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I don't know how many people are buying these. However, the counterfeits have become so prevalent that I have no doubt the number of buyers (and dollars involved) are substantial.
I agree that the issue isn't "solvable" and that buyers should do their due diligence. Still, I think efforts should be made to at least try to address the issue and make things more difficult for the sellers.
And in addition to working with eBay, I think the grading services could do a better job of warning and educating buyers. It would be in their own best interests to do so.
Edited to add: At the very least, eBay could easily shut down a far greater number of counterfeit listings than they’ve been doing recently. They’ve done so in the past, sometimes with the help of knowledgeable numismatists.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
the matter you consider a "non-issue" is a real issue as evidenced by the completed sales of counterfeits accompanied by positive feedback
It's a hopeless game of whack-a-mole.
The source country doesn't care about foreign copyrights and patents being violated, which makes any legal response almost impossible.
As for going after the US sellers, injured parties are the ones who have the most standing, but who among them/us is going to hire a lawyer?
PCGS has standing to go after copyright and patent infringements, but it's not financially feasible to go after every miscreant on ebay.
PCGS has responded to the threat by creating a new generation of slab.
That's the way I see it, anyway.
Could be - or those are fake sales to build artificial positive feedback.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I agree, though we already have that new generation. We have TrueViews, we have NFC tags. There are already many ways for customers to verify that modern PCGS holders are legitimate.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
that's a lot of fake sales
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Did not track down that comment but here is a similar follow on comment (probably) to that one. In this thread the idea was to list fake slabs. I did many from the below flickr link. But like many gave up and moved on. I did a post of ideas also but dead.
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https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13364282/#Comment_13364282
"In a previous thread, an idea for an email account to submit counterfeits arose and we are happy to report that account will be active soon. Thanks you all again for your dedication to our hobby."
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Here is the Flickr link (from above thread link) with many fakes listed.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay/
My failed 'doing more' thread.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1083352/counterfeit-pcgs-slabs-can-more-be-done
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yq4KA0mUnC8 - Dream On (Aerosmith cover) via Morgan James & Postmodern Jukebox
https://youtube.com/watch?v=m3lF2qEA2cw - Creep (Radiohead cover) via Haley Reinhart & Postmodern Jukebox
RLJ 1958 - 2023
OK, I will send you an email about another new Bay listing; I don't need help understanding this is bad and eBay has already told me through both their AI and a "customer service agent" it is ok...
Best, Jack.
Thank you. That was different from the exchange I was thinking of but it was along similar lines.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
pcgs never used 4 prong gaskets
the space between the letters (kerning) is too large
the coin would grade much higher than a 64
luster is wrong
it's an obvious counterfeit coin
I remember the time many years ago when PCGS came down hard on somebody who copied the PCGS holder and put real coins in them with their grades.
I remember that. He was an American coin dealer who took genuine slider AU58 coins and put them in counterfeit PCGS rattler slabs with MS grades. PCGS worked with law enforcement and the dealer was tracked down, arrested, and served some prison time. After that experience, PCGS redesigned their slab to make them more difficult to counterfeit.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It sounds like you’re referring to Gary Fernandez.
I don't recall that all of the coins were necessarily “sliders”, as opposed to coins of various lower grades than were indicated by the grading labels that were used.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
And maybe there is hope...
The seller ended both his 1881-CC and 1883-CC fakes in fakes after a friend sent him a link to our Coin Q&A podcast on these.
eBay then removed the 1881-CC...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/167427008577?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11051.m43.l1123&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=75975048f84c4b9a93c710a40da46bd6&bu=44074346084&osub=-1~1&crd=20250404174308&segname=11051
https://www.ebay.com/itm/167426992537?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11050.m43.l1123&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=5af11e717c8a468cbec79fff89eb56a9&bu=44074346084&osub=-1~1&crd=20250404051554&segname=11050
I think the pertinent part of his post is the cost of chasing these down. How much do you want to spend for slabbing services?
"Whatever the cost"? So you would be okay paying $150 for slabbing services? How about paying $20 to verify the coin slab before purchase? Are you up for the cost?
No business bears the cost. The customers bear the cost. The cost of going after international sellers would be astronomical.
Why isn't providing True Views and the verification tool sufficient? Why is it PCGS's responsibility to protect a potential buyer who isn't using the tools already available?
I don't like the fakes, but some of the posts on this thread are hyperbolic.
You could prevent food illnesses by requiring bacteria testing of all food products at the point of sale. Sure, it'll cost $30 for a loaf of bread. But "whatever the cost"...
So you think the costs of protecting their brand should be shouldered by the folks buying their services?
What is the cost of allowing miscreants to ruin the integrity of the product completely to the point that nothing can be trusted? PCGS might as well close up shop.
We all buy PCGS coins because we trust and rely on the product. We will will stop buying them when we can no longer trust and rely on them. If it's no longer economically feasible then we are at the end of a good run, but I don't believe that's the case. We're not asking for huge staff and full prosecution of every offender. We're just expecting PCGS to dedicate a couple of staff members to keep and establish relationships with the more prominent resale sites like ebay to ensure that reports aren't ignored and the more egregious or repeat offenders are reported for investigation and prosecution. The platforms like ebay as well as the other TPGs have a vested interest in this effort too and can combine forces. I'd be surprised if some of this isn't happening already but as recent posts indicate someone is dropping the ball both at PCGS and eBay.
All business costs are shouldered by the customers. Where do you think they get the money?
And back to the original posted "coins"; received this email from the Bay today:
I listed a real low grade 1885 Liberty nickel on ebay, then saw all the Chinese fakes pop up in the listings; I had to get mine certified to be saleable. I suspect that many buyers won't touch uncertified key date coins.
ebay's issue but they won't do anything unless served legal papers.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
The buyer who wants authentic, mint-produced coins needs to spend some time learning how counterfeits are made. Part of my library is comprised of books on detecting counterfeits. Don't take the time to educate oneself on how the crooks might manage to pull the wool over your eyes, it's hard for the more educated person to be sympathetic when the ignorant one is taken. The information on counterfeit detection is out there but it's only as good as it's accessed and used.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
Trying to monitor and curtail these abuses with a staff of a few reminds me of speeding drivers. The police can't stop everyone speeding they can only put the doubt in your mind it could be you caught. In other words while injecting a presence that some of the counterfeiters may be caught, many will not. So is the expense to run down those caught justified against the ones who get away?