Counterfeit PCGS Slabs - Can More Be Done?

lilolme

This is intended to throw out some ideas. Maybe all bad but maybe not.

First is a link to another thread from burfle23 if you want to review some of the counterfeit slabs and information in it which got me thinking.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1082973/the-unofficial-reporting-post-for-fake-pcgs-slabs-and-coins#latest

For each of the below Number Items it could be stated that this could give the counterfeiter more information or similar. This could be true but it appears that the counterfeiters have access to slab photos and information since many now have correct cert numbers and basically correct slab type to the real slab if and when the real slab is found in auction or inventory.

Number1 - Add the bar code to the Cert lookup page. This would just be a single line in the item list. The thought is that many counterfeit slabs do not have a correct bar code. While someone could scan the bar code to determine this, sometimes they might not have a scanner or think about it. A bar code line on the Cert lookup page could be a reminder and also give them a bar code to compare to without a scanner.
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Number2 - On the Cert lookup page and for the ones that have the De-activated note or come up with a notice that the cert number is no longer active and due to counterfeit slabs (see other thread link above), then also add a link to the type of holder (example museum of holders) that was used for this cert number. This may not be too applicable since the Cert is not active but the real slab may still be out there. This would let the user know what it should look like. Also I am not sure how confident pcgs is in the type of holder used.
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Number3 - Creat a new pcgs counterfeit slab web page. There would be a link to this page on all Cert lookup pages and at the bottom of the pcgs home page.

The page would contain more specific information and photos of the various pcgs slabs and what to look for to potentially determine if a slab is counterfeit. It could focus more on known issues with some of the counterfeit slabs that have been discovered so far. Example - no pcgs logo in the plastic on the front. There are many other items that have been seen to list but just giving one example.

The page could then show some examples of some known counterfeit slabs.

The page could also have a link or tab to the list of known counterfeit Cert numbers (de-activated, no longer active...).

The page could have a form to fill out to report suspected counterfeit slabs.
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Number4 - Stretching a little bit but a new pcgs webpage/App where someone could enter a Cert number and photo of the front and back of the slab. The photo could be their own or from online for sale.

This will need some disclaimers of course. Also the quality of the photos could/would limit the webpage/App ability.

The webpage/App would then return the applicable Number1 and Number3 information (see above) but would also 'check' the slab photos and cert number for potential issues. Example - again using the pcgs logo in the plastic on the front. If not visible to the webpage/App, then it could return 'Verifly pcgs logo' or similar and point to the specific item on the Number3 webpage. Again there are multiple other items but just giving one example.

It could also check the bar code and QR code and compare front and back label compatibility. Miscellaneous label details. Could it even detect if the Font on the label is incorrect? The inner coin ring?.....more? That's the idea.

Sounds like a 'Project' to me but it was a thought. Could start with limited ability (most known counterfeit slab type) but be continuously developing. Just sounds cool so I thought I would throw it out there.
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That is it for now. Thoughts? Crazy?

burfle23

Unfortunately the largest issue for inexperienced collectors in my opinion is the lack of on-line images in many PCGS certs; it takes a lot of research work in most cases to find the genuine comparison images. The counterfeiters seem to understand this and often pick these certs for their fakes.

In many cases the "coin" slabbed in the fake slab is also fake and attributing it (always my 1st step) can flush out the counterfeit, but there are also lower grade genuine coins housed in higher grade labeled counterfeit slabs in the marketplace...

I know my approach to an "unofficial" listing post is crude and not the best solution, but just another approach to try to get the word out to the Hobby I love.

Best, "burfle23"/ Jack D. Young.

PerryHall

Experienced and knowledgeable coin dealers and collectors have the advantage of being able to examine the coin and determine if the coin is authentic and the grade matches what is shown on the slab label.

ricko

This is a never ending issue. The counterfeiters are continuously working to perfect their processes. The collector community must also be constantly evaluating products for authenticity. Suggestions and identifying information is always welcome and helpful. Cheers, RickO

lilolme

@2burfle23
Yes on the images and a slab image has been suggested for years with some related to AT coins. Has not happened. Your thread is good but is very narrow in availability due to it being a thread on the forum and only those visiting the forum will have a chance to see it. So that was part of the thinking how to get it out to more. My thought went to a webpage on pcgs and links to that page on the cert lookup page. Should be some better ideas and ways out there but that is just my imagination running away with me (song). Unfortunately, similar to your response on your thread, there does not seem to be much attention here. I believe you said something like - sometimes I feel like I am talking to myself. I do get it.

Of course there are still many out there that do not look at anything, except maybe a price guide. So unfortunately there will be available 'victims' to sell to.

@ricko said:
This is a never ending issue. The counterfeiters are continuously working to perfect their processes. The collector community must also be constantly evaluating products for authenticity. Suggestions and identifying information is always welcome and helpful. Cheers, RickO

Thanks I gave it a try. I once thought I had a decent imagination. That was until I started reading some of the imaginative things about their coins on some of the forum posts.

burfle23

@lilolme I appreciate your thoughts and post and agree with you on how better to get the information out to the Hobby. I continue to write articles for Coin Week and this may be the next series!

lilolme

@burfle23 said:
@lilolme I appreciate your thoughts and post and agree with you on how better to get the information out to the Hobby. I continue to write articles for Coin Week and this may be the next series!

I think that would be good because I believe some of the solution is visibility of the problem. My imagination on the pcgs webpage was that once up and going that pcgs could promote it through various advertisements (banners, online ads, emails, show flyer and maybe given to member dealer to distribute at smaller shows...). Could even be similar to the NFC in that being a leader in type thing. Again I hear that imagination song in my head. I believe so many know nothing of their existence.

Cougar1978

Having a book on counterfeit detection helps plus attending seminars. It’s the responsibility of the individual player to evaluate and manage risk. Develop a risk $ Amount limit. Be familiar with the material your investing in. Be familiar what coins going bad in the holder look like. Fake coins aren’t the only thing victimizing buyers.

pmh1nic

Where do you see the break even or profitability point as far as a dollar value for a coin that makes it worthwhile to counterfeit the coin and/or slab?

I'm thinking about the young collector just starting out. They are probably not looking at $1,000 coins but $50 ~ $100 coins. Is there a real concern with respect to counterfeit coins or slabs in that price range or is this something that is much more of a concern above a particular price level?

lilolme

@pmh1nic
Here is one article from a previous thread. Apparently the counterfeit coins can be produced for a few cents. The better the counterfeit the more the cost. There is a similar video but I didn't quickly locate it.

Since the prior thread was counterfeit slabs and I was suggesting ideas for detecting pcgs slabs, my focus here was on the counterfeit pcgs slabs. Of course the counterfeit coins are also a concern.

I believe the goal should be to get visibility to all levels of collectors / dealers.

http://ncna.club/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Counterfeit-Coins-Article.pdf

burfle23

Unfortunately I have documented fakes at all price levels; an eBay seller was burned by these- he purchased a group of 5 different dates at #49 each and was starting to list them at auction. The 1807 was at $100 and bidding.

https://www.mercari.com/u/397396597/?tracking_ref_id=m35030155005&fbclid=IwAR0zLk7M7HnvW1WlRqR1k12BeOsHE9KmriqK3NQzM9YlH3uLexBoViagVxM

burfle23

@lilolme here is my Coin Week collection to date: https://coinweek.com/author/jack-d-young/?fbclid=IwAR3jUPj5xCfcsAtW0CvStAJ3fsLXa8k-Jfc89f5C-aZxyDmCXZi_Js3Q8ho

I have asked if they would be interested in a new series on fake slabs and coins...

Elcontador

Another factor is know who you are dealing with. A reputable dealer will eat it if he / she unknowingly sells you a bad coin.

My mentor showed me all kind of ways you can doctor coins. With fakes as well, if you can grade a particular coin or series, there is something not quite right with them that you can spot. Ie., the sites dealing with fake expensive coins, like the 1893 S Morgan Dollar. Another is the cert might be correct for a particular coin, but the grade isn't. Then you have cast copies, fakes made from different dates of the same series, etc.

lilolme

Thanks @burfle23 for the link and when I get some time that should be some good reading. Also good or bad to know that the less expensive slabs are also targeted (goes along with the less expensive coins).

@Elcontador said:
Another factor is know who you are dealing with. A reputable dealer will eat it if he / she unknowingly sells you a bad coin.

Agree with this and so my thought is that my imaginary pcgs counterfeit webpage could have a link to the pcgs authorized dealers. I of course can not vouch for all of them but hopefully pcgs would have some confidence in them to a certain level.

Again trying to think of ways to get visibility to the issue of the counterfeit pcgs slab.

@Elcontador said:
My mentor showed me all kind of ways you can doctor coins. With fakes as well, if you can grade a particular coin or >series, there is something not quite right with them that you can spot. Ie., the sites dealing with fake expensive coins, like >the 1893 S Morgan Dollar. Another is the cert might be correct for a particular coin, but the grade isn't. Then you have >cast copies, fakes made from different dates of the same series, etc.

Yes there are all kinds of counterfeit/fake coins. The breadth of the counterfeit/fake coins would be order(s) of magnitude larger than the same for slabs. From the prior thread by burfle23 I was trying to imagine ways to protect those buying a pcgs slab from counterfeit pcgs slabs.

Here is an interesting counterfeit/fake coin from a previous thread, link below. It is an 1886 O in a fake pcgs slab. ifthevamsa rockin identified it as an obverse of 1886 P but the reverse was a C4 O mint. Still not sure if it is a very good counterfeit with the wrong C4 reverse and the VAM detail of an obverse P mint or if it is similar to a magicians coin with two good coins put together.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1077075/i-felt-obligated-to-warn-the-coin-collectors/p1

pmh1nic

@lilolme said:
@pmh1nic
Here is one article from a previous thread. Apparently the counterfeit coins can be produced for a few cents. The better the counterfeit the more the cost. There is a similar video but I didn't quickly locate it.

Since the prior thread was counterfeit slabs and I was suggesting ideas for detecting pcgs slabs, my focus here was on the counterfeit pcgs slabs. Of course the counterfeit coins are also a concern.

I believe the goal should be to get visibility to all levels of collectors / dealers.

http://ncna.club/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Counterfeit-Coins-Article.pdf

Very informative article. The potential for being ripped off appears to be huge.

burfle23

Not a counterfeit, but what do you do about this one?