A Crazy Proof 1964 Nickel - AT/QT or NT/MA?
Catbert
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Your opinion regarding this PCGS PR67? This is a new piece for my 1964 proof set. Honest takes only 
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A Crazy Proof 1964 Nickel - AT/QT or NT/MA?
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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I'm sometimes on the fence on these, but I had a 1977 proof set where the nickel was starting to turn a light purple. I'm leaning MA/NT on this one and I really like it! I also remember the rash of the blue proofs from the early 60's from years ago, but always thought they were fishy.
In my ANA show report, I posted my PF-68 1969-S nickel. The colors are different than yours, but it's also a stunner.
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The coin looks cool but I think it would get the QT.
What’s going for you on this one, is I’m usually wrong 😑
Martin
Nice look. The purple colors are typically considered QT.
Pretty coin, though.
Enjoy.
I've found a few of the blue proof nickels that Elmer speaks of and they came straight from the flat pack that way so, I vote that something happened naturally. And when I find toned business strike coins from mint sets the package was compromised allowing the elements in.
I have seen some funny stuff in those early 60's piloform packaging sets
Yes, the OP’s nickel’s ‘look’ is much like many I saw in original pack 1961-64 proof sets.
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While these occasionally get the QC, most straight grade. I pretty much consider them all market acceptable when the colors are like this from the 1950s-1970s.
I’ve seen these cellophane toners in all sorts of colors including this one that @Catbert is showing. I believe it toned this way naturally in the cellophane.
Blue colors can be questionable... especially for copper. But I've found some beautiful toned nickels in original sets in the 1960's!
NT. 1960 through 64 proof sets have a high concentration of Jeff toners from this color palette. Awesome coin btw.
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This Barber quarter is on eBay…and the seller says right off is that the toning has been ‘expertly added’……and it is NOT cheap.
if it is bogus toning they did a nice job doing it
That barber quarter..... is NOT for me!
Very traditional look from the 'flat pack' proof sets from 55-64.
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Had a roll of early misc Jeff proofs in a tube. Never gave them a thought over probably 15 years. Stumbled on them and every single one had that blue and purple toning well developed. I know damn well I didn’t do anything to them.
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I think that it is natural.
I think it's AT though I believe the market considers them NT/MA at least, in part, because PCGS played fast-and-loose with hundreds of these cooked examples in the early 2000s and they have blurred the line of what is real and what isn't.
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The holder is a 2015-2000 version.
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While I find it very ugly this is considered as MA by PCGS and I suppose by NGC. I wonder how CACG would see it; personally I think these should be QC all day long.
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I ran into to nickel that looked like this in a Proof set that I cut up to sell as Proof singles years ago. When I cut into the cell that held the nickel, a smelly gas escaped. I think that it had something to do with the Proof set package when it was sealed.
I think that the piece is natural as much as something that was caused by mint packaging can be. As for pushing it to PR-67, that based on the color. I see a couple of "flyspecks" on the piece which would make me think PR-64. But there are those who are totally head over heals over color, and I suppose they think it's worth PR-67 money.
I love the look on toners from this period. Great coin!
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I wasn't a believer until I was going through some of my Proof and Mint sets and low and behold there was a purple nickel, maybe in a 1962 flat pack. I haven't checked it in about six years, so it will be interesting to see what it looks like now. I'll probably throw it on the Bay and see what it would get me.
This is a prime example of Cellophane toning. Proof Jefferson Nickels from 58,63, and 64 tone beautiful colors ranging from Blue, Pink, Dark Purple/Violet, and sometimes yellow/gold.
QT, NT, MA does not matter.
I like it.
I have posted this before . . .
The 'flat packs' (primarily 1959-1964) when subjected to a long-term storage (many of these were--shops had crates of them around unsold for years . . .decades) off-gassed from the pliofilm. The copper did not tone with this gas (well, I suppose some poster out there found an anomaly . . . but generally, no), and the silver was overall, impervious.
However . . .the nickel composition reacted with the heat and off-gassing and toned the nickels a variety of blues, purples, and seafoam greens (mostly) while untampered with and remaining sealed in the flat packs. Sets not receiving heat (even a bit of radiant sunlight on a LCS counter over time) would remain 'as minted'.
Here in SLC there was a shop in the 1990s and early 2000s that specialized in cannibalizing those sets for cameos and submitting them. They hated the toned Jeffs and put them, still sealed in the cut-out pliofilm, in a wicker basket on the LCS counter for $3 each. You could buy dozens. Over time . . . hundreds. Some were as vibrant as the above pix . . . others (most) were pastel toned and all were quite beautiful.
They are without question original. Now that does not mean some enterprising numismatist has not capitalized on the original look and dialed up a few intense toners of his/her own . . . . but the reason it is possible to fake them is because virtually ALL of them are original and the reasoning behind their color is WELL KNOWN in the TPG grading world, even if it is not . . . . . . . . here.
Drunner
Couldn’t have said it better
Pretty much how I feel
Martin
$2,469 is his asking price! 😉
Several years ago, there was a boardmember who submitted these toners from proof sets and they came back straight graded. I have seen this toning in original proof sets and believe it is NT. One old dealer told me it was from the packaging having oil from the sealing machine in it before the coins were sealed.
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I believe it, I always thought the reverse looks like oil on water.
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It’s straight graded and it’s gorgeous, so that’s all that would matter to me.
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There's some coins in this thread I don't like as NT/MA, and while yours may not be NT as the image is a little hard to decipher, I have seen similar types of toning from original packaging and I suspect in hand it might be even more believable. The "texture" of the color seems right for NT/MA as well
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I just bought and sold over 100+ original proof sets that had sat in a safe since the 60's apx. The cellophane had turned yellow with age instead of white and the coins inside where all toned like this. The pennies especially were stunning purples and reds.
That uniform toning across both sides is suspicious to me. All of the proofs I see that are older show nothing like it. Sure the colors alone can be produced in the wild, but looks too much like we see on feepay from suspicious vendors. Of course, I could be wrong here as know one ever knows the true history of a coin.
This.
@TomB said: I think it's AT though I believe the market considers them NT/MA at least, in part, because PCGS played fast-and-loose with hundreds of these cooked examples in the early 2000s and they have blurred the line of what is real and what isn't.
The sets you reference from the "early 2000's" are the MadMarty Hoard coins which had a different look. Those tended to be monochromatic and were quite glossy with very even color. Looking at enough of these shows the difference, the coins in this thread alone look quite different from those early ones. I think PCGS and NGC both were fooled when those coins arrived and encapsulated them before they each realized what was happening. I remember around 2003-4 getting to the Baltimore ANA show and it seemed that every dealer on the floor had at least one of the coins in their cases.
PCGS and NGC weren't the only ones fooled!!
With reference to the flat packs by @FlyingAl it would seem that the subject coins typically come in the 1960-64 sets with 1962 seeming to be the most often found, that's just from my un-scientific research. When all this was going on after that hoard hit the streets I had quite a few PM's with a couple of members and it seems that the Mint was "experimenting" with different planchet washes during that time period, mainly on the Nickels, and there was a reaction between the alloy, the rinse residue and the pliofilm. Additionally, tightly packed sets and heat seemed to enhance whatever the reaction.
If you look at the coin I posted above in the PCGS holder, I have two others which look quite similar both in the pattern of the tone and the colors themselves. One is in a small, white ANACS holder and the other is still enclosed in the Mint Proof Set.
I agree with this. I will note that I’ve been able to cut one of these coins out of the flat pack, and there was a foul odor coming from the inside of the packs. Very interesting.
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As a YN, I collected Jefferson Nickels very seriously in the 60s and 70s and I don't ever recall seeing one that looked like that (or frankly even close to that).
I believe they are a modern concoction.
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@CoinRaritiesOnline said: As a YN, I collected Jefferson Nickels very seriously in the 60s and 70s and I don't ever recall seeing one that looked like that (or frankly even close to that).
I believe they are a modern concoction.
Most likely time figures into the reaction and it isn't something that happens with every Nickel in every set. I've have looked at thousands of sets from the suspect years and won't wager any "estimate" about finding one, but they are by no means common. If you realize that from 1960-1964 inclusive there were between 1.5-4 million sets issued each year it isn't unrealistic at all to believe that from those years there could be 10k Nickels that randomly toned like this.
That represents less than .07% of the Nickels. Random chance is a funny thing.
I think it's the real deal
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I think it's naturally toned. Not sure the premium it would bring though.
I have seen these with those colors in original mint packaging. It is NT.
def NT. Lots of toners in the 1960 to 1964 proof sets. The mint was experimenting with a post production dip to reduce spotting. and many toned right inside the cello packs years later.
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As one who has been assembling this series in the various shades they acquire, that one is without question natural as I've seen literally hundreds in hand. Many of those still in the original mylar. They are commonly refered to as "cotton candy". The image appears to be one from PCGS, which I have found to be less vibrant and softer in hand.
@relicsncoins said: I think it's naturally toned. Not sure the premium it would bring though.
Not sure what they sell for today but when the MadMarty Hoard was new it wasn't unusual to see them selling from $700-$1,000. That was in the midst of the initial run-up of toned coins when the market was overwhelmed and a feeding frenzy was in full swing.