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A Crazy Proof 1964 Nickel - AT/QT or NT/MA?

CatbertCatbert Posts: 7,215 ✭✭✭✭✭

Your opinion regarding this PCGS PR67? This is a new piece for my 1964 proof set. Honest takes only ;):#

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A Crazy Proof 1964 Nickel - AT/QT or NT/MA?

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  • ElmerFusterpuckElmerFusterpuck Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    I'm sometimes on the fence on these, but I had a 1977 proof set where the nickel was starting to turn a light purple. I'm leaning MA/NT on this one and I really like it! I also remember the rash of the blue proofs from the early 60's from years ago, but always thought they were fishy.

    In my ANA show report, I posted my PF-68 1969-S nickel. The colors are different than yours, but it's also a stunner.

  • MartinMartin Posts: 986 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AT/QT (either artificially toned or questionable toning)

    The coin looks cool but I think it would get the QT.

    What’s going for you on this one, is I’m usually wrong 😑

    Martin

  • JBNJBN Posts: 1,851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AT/QT (either artificially toned or questionable toning)

    Nice look. The purple colors are typically considered QT.
    Pretty coin, though.
    Enjoy.

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 8,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    I've found a few of the blue proof nickels that Elmer speaks of and they came straight from the flat pack that way so, I vote that something happened naturally. And when I find toned business strike coins from mint sets the package was compromised allowing the elements in.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    I have seen some funny stuff in those early 60's piloform packaging sets

  • TypekatTypekat Posts: 416 ✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    I have seen some funny stuff in those early 60's piloform packaging sets

    Yes, the OP’s nickel’s ‘look’ is much like many I saw in original pack 1961-64 proof sets.

    30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 6,085 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    While these occasionally get the QC, most straight grade. I pretty much consider them all market acceptable when the colors are like this from the 1950s-1970s.

  • tincuptincup Posts: 5,186 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    Blue colors can be questionable... especially for copper. But I've found some beautiful toned nickels in original sets in the 1960's!

    ----- kj
  • telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,914 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2024 7:56AM
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    NT. 1960 through 64 proof sets have a high concentration of Jeff toners from this color palette. Awesome coin btw.


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  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 28,416 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AT/QT (either artificially toned or questionable toning)

    if it is bogus toning they did a nice job doing it

  • tincuptincup Posts: 5,186 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    That barber quarter..... is NOT for me!

    ----- kj
  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    Very traditional look from the 'flat pack' proof sets from 55-64.

    Coin Photographer.

  • Jacques_LoungecoqueJacques_Loungecoque Posts: 733 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2024 9:30AM
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    Had a roll of early misc Jeff proofs in a tube. Never gave them a thought over probably 15 years. Stumbled on them and every single one had that blue and purple toning well developed. I know damn well I didn’t do anything to them.

    Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,656 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    I think that it is natural.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,323 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AT/QT (either artificially toned or questionable toning)

    I think it's AT though I believe the market considers them NT/MA at least, in part, because PCGS played fast-and-loose with hundreds of these cooked examples in the early 2000s and they have blurred the line of what is real and what isn't.

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  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 7,215 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The holder is a 2015-2000 version.

    Seated Half Society member #38
    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2024 12:20PM
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    While I find it very ugly this is considered as MA by PCGS and I suppose by NGC. I wonder how CACG would see it; personally I think these should be QC all day long.

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  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I ran into to nickel that looked like this in a Proof set that I cut up to sell as Proof singles years ago. When I cut into the cell that held the nickel, a smelly gas escaped. I think that it had something to do with the Proof set package when it was sealed.

    I think that the piece is natural as much as something that was caused by mint packaging can be. As for pushing it to PR-67, that based on the color. I see a couple of "flyspecks" on the piece which would make me think PR-64. But there are those who are totally head over heals over color, and I suppose they think it's worth PR-67 money.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • CopperindianCopperindian Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    I love the look on toners from this period. Great coin!

    “The thrill of the hunt never gets old”

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  • air4mdcair4mdc Posts: 915 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    I wasn't a believer until I was going through some of my Proof and Mint sets and low and behold there was a purple nickel, maybe in a 1962 flat pack. I haven't checked it in about six years, so it will be interesting to see what it looks like now. I'll probably throw it on the Bay and see what it would get me.

  • NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    This is a prime example of Cellophane toning. Proof Jefferson Nickels from 58,63, and 64 tone beautiful colors ranging from Blue, Pink, Dark Purple/Violet, and sometimes yellow/gold.

  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 12,170 ✭✭✭✭✭

    QT, NT, MA does not matter.

    I like it.

  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have posted this before . . .

    The 'flat packs' (primarily 1959-1964) when subjected to a long-term storage (many of these were--shops had crates of them around unsold for years . . .decades) off-gassed from the pliofilm. The copper did not tone with this gas (well, I suppose some poster out there found an anomaly . . . but generally, no), and the silver was overall, impervious.

    However . . .the nickel composition reacted with the heat and off-gassing and toned the nickels a variety of blues, purples, and seafoam greens (mostly) while untampered with and remaining sealed in the flat packs. Sets not receiving heat (even a bit of radiant sunlight on a LCS counter over time) would remain 'as minted'.

    Here in SLC there was a shop in the 1990s and early 2000s that specialized in cannibalizing those sets for cameos and submitting them. They hated the toned Jeffs and put them, still sealed in the cut-out pliofilm, in a wicker basket on the LCS counter for $3 each. You could buy dozens. Over time . . . hundreds. Some were as vibrant as the above pix . . . others (most) were pastel toned and all were quite beautiful.

    They are without question original. Now that does not mean some enterprising numismatist has not capitalized on the original look and dialed up a few intense toners of his/her own . . . . but the reason it is possible to fake them is because virtually ALL of them are original and the reasoning behind their color is WELL KNOWN in the TPG grading world, even if it is not . . . . . . . . here.

    Drunner

  • MartinMartin Posts: 986 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AT/QT (either artificially toned or questionable toning)

    @SanctionII said:
    QT, NT, MA does not matter.

    I like it.

    Couldn’t have said it better
    Pretty much how I feel

    Martin

  • .... Posts: 413 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2024 5:59PM

    @johnny9434 said:
    if it is bogus toning they did a nice job doing it

    $2,469 is his asking price! 😉

  • MICHAELDIXONMICHAELDIXON Posts: 6,516 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    Several years ago, there was a boardmember who submitted these toners from proof sets and they came back straight graded. I have seen this toning in original proof sets and believe it is NT. One old dealer told me it was from the packaging having oil from the sealing machine in it before the coins were sealed.

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  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 8,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    @MICHAELDIXON said:
    Several years ago, there was a boardmember who submitted these toners from proof sets and they came back straight graded. I have seen this toning in original proof sets and believe it is NT. One old dealer told me it was from the packaging having oil from the sealing machine in it before the coins were sealed.

    I believe it, I always thought the reverse looks like oil on water.

  • KurisuKurisu Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2024 7:11PM
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)



    Coins are Neato!

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  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 9,354 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    It’s straight graded and it’s gorgeous, so that’s all that would matter to me.

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  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,959 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    There's some coins in this thread I don't like as NT/MA, and while yours may not be NT as the image is a little hard to decipher, I have seen similar types of toning from original packaging and I suspect in hand it might be even more believable. The "texture" of the color seems right for NT/MA as well


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  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    I just bought and sold over 100+ original proof sets that had sat in a safe since the 60's apx. The cellophane had turned yellow with age instead of white and the coins inside where all toned like this. The pennies especially were stunning purples and reds.

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • Desert MoonDesert Moon Posts: 5,781 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AT/QT (either artificially toned or questionable toning)

    That uniform toning across both sides is suspicious to me. All of the proofs I see that are older show nothing like it. Sure the colors alone can be produced in the wild, but looks too much like we see on feepay from suspicious vendors. Of course, I could be wrong here as know one ever knows the true history of a coin.

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  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    @davewesen said:
    I have seen some funny stuff in those early 60's piloform packaging sets

    This.

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    @TomB said: I think it's AT though I believe the market considers them NT/MA at least, in part, because PCGS played fast-and-loose with hundreds of these cooked examples in the early 2000s and they have blurred the line of what is real and what isn't.

    The sets you reference from the "early 2000's" are the MadMarty Hoard coins which had a different look. Those tended to be monochromatic and were quite glossy with very even color. Looking at enough of these shows the difference, the coins in this thread alone look quite different from those early ones. I think PCGS and NGC both were fooled when those coins arrived and encapsulated them before they each realized what was happening. I remember around 2003-4 getting to the Baltimore ANA show and it seemed that every dealer on the floor had at least one of the coins in their cases.

    PCGS and NGC weren't the only ones fooled!!

    With reference to the flat packs by @FlyingAl it would seem that the subject coins typically come in the 1960-64 sets with 1962 seeming to be the most often found, that's just from my un-scientific research. When all this was going on after that hoard hit the streets I had quite a few PM's with a couple of members and it seems that the Mint was "experimenting" with different planchet washes during that time period, mainly on the Nickels, and there was a reaction between the alloy, the rinse residue and the pliofilm. Additionally, tightly packed sets and heat seemed to enhance whatever the reaction.

    If you look at the coin I posted above in the PCGS holder, I have two others which look quite similar both in the pattern of the tone and the colors themselves. One is in a small, white ANACS holder and the other is still enclosed in the Mint Proof Set.

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    @Maywood said:
    @TomB said: I think it's AT though I believe the market considers them NT/MA at least, in part, because PCGS played fast-and-loose with hundreds of these cooked examples in the early 2000s and they have blurred the line of what is real and what isn't.

    The sets you reference from the "early 2000's" are the MadMarty Hoard coins which had a different look. Those tended to be monochromatic and were quite glossy with very even color. Looking at enough of these shows the difference, the coins in this thread alone look quite different from those early ones. I think PCGS and NGC both were fooled when those coins arrived and encapsulated them before they each realized what was happening. I remember around 2003-4 getting to the Baltimore ANA show and it seemed that every dealer on the floor had at least one of the coins in their cases.

    PCGS and NGC weren't the only ones fooled!!

    With reference to the flat packs by @FlyingAl it would seem that the subject coins typically come in the 1960-64 sets with 1962 seeming to be the most often found, that's just from my un-scientific research. When all this was going on after that hoard hit the streets I had quite a few PM's with a couple of members and it seems that the Mint was "experimenting" with different planchet washes during that time period, mainly on the Nickels, and there was a reaction between the alloy, the rinse residue and the pliofilm. Additionally, tightly packed sets and heat seemed to enhance whatever the reaction.

    If you look at the coin I posted above in the PCGS holder, I have two others which look quite similar both in the pattern of the tone and the colors themselves. One is in a small, white ANACS holder and the other is still enclosed in the Mint Proof Set.

    I agree with this. I will note that I’ve been able to cut one of these coins out of the flat pack, and there was a foul odor coming from the inside of the packs. Very interesting.

    Coin Photographer.

  • CoinRaritiesOnlineCoinRaritiesOnline Posts: 3,668 ✭✭✭✭

    As a YN, I collected Jefferson Nickels very seriously in the 60s and 70s and I don't ever recall seeing one that looked like that (or frankly even close to that).

    I believe they are a modern concoction.

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    @CoinRaritiesOnline said: As a YN, I collected Jefferson Nickels very seriously in the 60s and 70s and I don't ever recall seeing one that looked like that (or frankly even close to that).

    I believe they are a modern concoction.

    Most likely time figures into the reaction and it isn't something that happens with every Nickel in every set. I've have looked at thousands of sets from the suspect years and won't wager any "estimate" about finding one, but they are by no means common. If you realize that from 1960-1964 inclusive there were between 1.5-4 million sets issued each year it isn't unrealistic at all to believe that from those years there could be 10k Nickels that randomly toned like this.

    That represents less than .07% of the Nickels. Random chance is a funny thing.

  • AlanSkiAlanSki Posts: 1,925 ✭✭✭✭✭


  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 3,225 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    I think it's the real deal

  • relicsncoinsrelicsncoins Posts: 7,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think it's naturally toned. Not sure the premium it would bring though.

    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
  • Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 990 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    I have seen these with those colors in original mint packaging. It is NT.

  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭✭✭

    def NT. Lots of toners in the 1960 to 1964 proof sets. The mint was experimenting with a post production dip to reduce spotting. and many toned right inside the cello packs years later.

  • EbeneezerEbeneezer Posts: 306 ✭✭✭

    As one who has been assembling this series in the various shades they acquire, that one is without question natural as I've seen literally hundreds in hand. Many of those still in the original mylar. They are commonly refered to as "cotton candy". The image appears to be one from PCGS, which I have found to be less vibrant and softer in hand.

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NT/MA (either naturally toned or market acceptable toning)

    @relicsncoins said: I think it's naturally toned. Not sure the premium it would bring though.

    Not sure what they sell for today but when the MadMarty Hoard was new it wasn't unusual to see them selling from $700-$1,000. That was in the midst of the initial run-up of toned coins when the market was overwhelmed and a feeding frenzy was in full swing.

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