There’s my Pirates in a nutshell… pretty darn good start from Skenes, then 73 straight balls after he’s pulled and 5* runs walked in, then the freaking grounds crew can’t even cover the field… they almost rolled the tarp over 2 clowns who thought they could jump over it while it was in motion, then came up 6 ft short and couldn’t cover all the dirt near home plate.
ETA - sorry, only 4 runs walked in, the last was an infield hit. It only seemed like 5 were walked in because the guy after Skenes threw only 6 strikes in his 23 pitches.
That 15 straight could be a recent record. Considering the work he did in the 2nd I would have let him clean up his mess in the 5th as well. His velo was down a little bit he was still all over the edges. Anyways. He wasn’t overmatched and looked in control out there.
You are pretty obtuse Basebal21, your definition of a rest day is simply wrong. It is not 24 hours since the pitcher pitched, it is one calendar day without pitching. Super simple and you appear to be the only one that believes otherwise.
Every level of baseball that publishes pitcher rest day information (including MLB’s guidelines for youth pitching) has it as one calendar day. But again, you appear to be pathetically incapable of admitting you are wrong. No wonder so many folks on this board have set you on ignore.
As for Skenes, the over under on TJ surgery is 2 years for him.
@fergie23 said:
You are pretty obtuse Basebal21, your definition of a rest day is simply wrong. It is not 24 hours since the pitcher pitched, it is one calendar day without pitching. Super simple and you appear to be the only one that believes otherwise.
Every level of baseball that publishes pitcher rest day information (including MLB’s guidelines for youth pitching) has it as one calendar day. But again, you appear to be pathetically incapable of admitting you are wrong. No wonder so many folks on this board have set you on ignore.
As for Skenes, the over under on TJ surgery is 2 years for him.
Robb
I'm not obtuse at all. Again if you dont want to believe me then go listen to all the podcasts and videos of professional pitchers speaking about it not a sponsored picture for underage players. Sure if were talking little league or 15 year olds yes you add the extra time to try and prevent the coaches from abusing a kid because of the fact theres usually one or two so much better than everyone else that coaches will just abuse, But were discussing high level D1 athletes at minimum and mainly professional athletes. not kids I guess the professional athletes including CY Young winners and everything else must be wrong. If people dont like talking sports thats their choice.
Every pitcher has risk of TJ and a ton of them get it. It would be a shame if Skenes got hurt but it will probably happen which you pretty much just assume with pitchers. The one good thing is his workload at Air Force his first two years was low and LSU didnt abuse him either.
The only thing I would add to the TJ question is… UCL injuries are overuse injuries and not really cumulative use injuries - like cartilage wear for example.
This is why there are all these systems setup to manage work. The data continues to flow in.
I know what you’re saying though about the time in AAA about why not have him throwing those innings in the majors. I just think they’re following the playbook and they’re saying they’re following the playbook.
He throws so easy. Doesn’t have the big leg kick but looks like the easy heat Ryan had.
He also hasn’t been a pitcher his entire life like so many… much less overall wear on his arm than most MLB rookie pitchers.
They said on the broadcast that he’s the fastest draft pick to the majors in 35 years (I may be paraphrasing, I don’t remember if there were qualifiers there like “first 21 year old first round pick from LSU who’s dating an influencer” ). As I said before… as a fan of the team and in another lost season, I’m good with them playing it safe.
And whaddaya know, the Buccos pulled out the win after walking in 6 runs in a single inning. That might be a first in MLB history.
UCL injuries can happen suddenly but can also build over time. Otahni is a good example of someone that was pitching through a partial tear for a while not wanting an MRI until it got to bad. Unfortunately some of these guys like Walker Buheler have had it before they ever get to the pros and a second one has a low recovery rate.
As mentioned I do like Skenes chances more given his frame, less work in college and before and how easy things come out of his hand. I do hope he stays healthy so we can all see what he can do
The definition of a rest day for a pitcher is the same in little league, in high school, in D1, and in the majors. There is only one person in this discussion that believes a rest day for a pitcher is 24 hours since they last pitched and not a calendar day. Even a simple cursory search will show that when a starting pitcher pitches on "3 days rest" (like they sometimes do in the playoffs) it is 3 calendar days between games.
Baseball-reference.com has a days of rest for calculating how pitchers perform in different scenarios and it uses calendar days between starts.
Basebal21 was wrong about how frequently pitchers pitch on short rest and then decided to make up a definition of a rest day to save face.
Anyway, as pretty much anyone that has "discussed sports" with Basebal21 on this forum realizes, he is basically a brick wall. He thinks he knows everything about anything sports related but time and time again has been shown to be wrong about something specific but for some reason is utterly incapable of admitting he doesn't actually know something.
This above is also how I understand “rest” day calculations. I’m not aware of anyone calculating the hourly interval between starts but it could be done.
I know the have stricter rules at youth levels now and I’m unfamiliar with those.
It’s more odd to me because it’s so far off topic. Let’s call it 6 days or 2 days. It wasn’t pertinent.
@bgr said:
This above is also how I understand “rest” day calculations. I’m not aware of anyone calculating the hourly interval between starts but it could be done.
I know the have stricter rules at youth levels now and I’m unfamiliar with those.
It’s more odd to me because it’s so far off topic. Let’s call it 6 days or 2 days. It wasn’t pertinent.
Youth baseball and high level baseball like top D1 teams, MLB etc are completely different animals. The big D1 programs and the facilities the pros train at most of them go so far as to have screens attached to the weight racks that measure things like speed power and out put that tell you if youre having a good day or a bad day and some players will have the rings or an apple watch tracking things for programs saying red or green day for how hard to go that day etc.
Physical strain and recover is measured by time not a calendar. If you start running at 11:45pm and stop at 12:45 am you didnt run for two days, you ran for an hour. Same reason why often times if you had a 7pm game and then a noon game the next day the backup catcher will start. If you workout at 9pm on Tuesday and then again at 6am on Thursday its the same calendar time as 9pm both days but significantly less recovery time.
The youth changes have been good though trying to force extra time for players still growing. I used to coach travel ball in the offseason during my playing days and it was disgusting what you would see from some coaches. I ended up stopping just because I couldnt watch it anymore when in a tournament I saw a 13 year kid throw 120 pitches the first game, catch the second game, then start against us again in the championship the next day.
The talent gap in youth ball is massive and the stud pitchers get abused by a lot of coaches to the point rules basically had to be put in place in a lot of the leagues
But when we’re talking about 5 man rotations we’re talking about 4 full days between starts at a minimum.
If a guy pitches at 12pm on Monday.
Then he pitches at 7pm on Saturday we don’t say he had 5 days rest. Or that he had about 125 hours of rest.
I’m sure they’re capturing that information but that’s not what we’re talking about here. I’m invested in finding how far this rabbit hole goes though.
@bgr said:
But when we’re talking about 5 man rotations we’re talking about 4 full days between starts at a minimum.
If a guy pitches at 12pm on Monday.
Then he pitches at 7pm on Saturday we don’t say he had 5 days rest. Or that he had about 125 hours of rest.
I’m sure they’re capturing that information but that’s not what we’re talking about here. I’m invested in finding how far this rabbit hole goes though.
Fans or journalists may not say that but 125 would be whats considered. That time frame wouldnt be thought about at all though. Noon or 7pm wouldnt make any difference other than a shorter pregame schedule and maybe being a little sleepy
@bgr said:
But when we’re talking about 5 man rotations we’re talking about 4 full days between starts at a minimum.
If a guy pitches at 12pm on Monday.
Then he pitches at 7pm on Saturday we don’t say he had 5 days rest. Or that he had about 125 hours of rest.
I’m sure they’re capturing that information but that’s not what we’re talking about here. I’m invested in finding how far this rabbit hole goes though.
Fans or journalists may not say that but 125 would be whats considered. That time frame wouldnt be thought about at all though. Noon or 7pm wouldnt make any difference other than a shorter pregame schedule and maybe being a little sleepy
I mean you’re right and you’re wrong. The big thing now is chronic workload and acute workload metrics. As far as what everyone is talking about regarding rest — you’re wrong and then you’re wrong and even if we count by hours…. wrong.
And now we’re talking about talking about something unrelated to the sub-topic of the divergent topic about Skenes.
@bgr said:
But when we’re talking about 5 man rotations we’re talking about 4 full days between starts at a minimum.
If a guy pitches at 12pm on Monday.
Then he pitches at 7pm on Saturday we don’t say he had 5 days rest. Or that he had about 125 hours of rest.
I’m sure they’re capturing that information but that’s not what we’re talking about here. I’m invested in finding how far this rabbit hole goes though.
Fans or journalists may not say that but 125 would be whats considered. That time frame wouldnt be thought about at all though. Noon or 7pm wouldnt make any difference other than a shorter pregame schedule and maybe being a little sleepy
I mean you’re right and you’re wrong. The big thing now is chronic workload and acute workload metrics. As far as what everyone is talking about regarding rest — you’re wrong and then you’re wrong and even if we count by hours…. wrong.
And now we’re talking about talking about something unrelated to the sub-topic of the divergent topic about Skenes.
Its poetic if nothing else.
Tons of players, coaches, trainers have talked about it publicly. I'll try and stay away from insights about behind the scenes stuff about training and workload since apparently people dont like learning about it when it comes to high level athletics
@bgr said:
But when we’re talking about 5 man rotations we’re talking about 4 full days between starts at a minimum.
If a guy pitches at 12pm on Monday.
Then he pitches at 7pm on Saturday we don’t say he had 5 days rest. Or that he had about 125 hours of rest.
I’m sure they’re capturing that information but that’s not what we’re talking about here. I’m invested in finding how far this rabbit hole goes though.
Fans or journalists may not say that but 125 would be whats considered. That time frame wouldnt be thought about at all though. Noon or 7pm wouldnt make any difference other than a shorter pregame schedule and maybe being a little sleepy
I mean you’re right and you’re wrong. The big thing now is chronic workload and acute workload metrics. As far as what everyone is talking about regarding rest — you’re wrong and then you’re wrong and even if we count by hours…. wrong.
And now we’re talking about talking about something unrelated to the sub-topic of the divergent topic about Skenes.
Its poetic if nothing else.
Tons of players, coaches, trainers have talked about it publicly. I'll try and stay away from insights about behind the scenes stuff about training and workload since apparently people dont like learning about it when it comes to high level athletics
For real. I don’t even know what you’re talking about. But ok. Pitchers never pitch on 4 days rest except, and only sometimes, in the postseason.
The insights are excellent. What are your per-throw workload coefficients? We measure every throw today. Not just pitches.
For the first time in 2024 the Brewers don't have TBD pitching in a series! I thought I've watched every game, but I've missed every one of his starts somehow.
Good luck Bucs. You got Rea, Ross, and our most recent debut Gasser.
Gotta give the Brewers an A+ on this season so far. Exceeding expectations and managing some serious injuries to the pitching staff. Yelich is still breathing fire after being out for 23 games with yet-another-back-issue. He needs Yoga in his life.. or something.
As bad as you might think they are, there are seven teams with a lower winning percentage, two in the Pirates division. Is the NL Central really that bad??
For the Pirates fans that have stuck around the last 30 years I commend you and hope they win, but for your own sake, if the Pirates don't spend heavily when their prospects mature, then you need to give the middle finger and just not go to games anymore.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
For the Pirates fans that have stuck around the last 30 years I commend you and hope they win, but for your own sake, if the Pirates don't spend heavily when their prospects mature, then you need to give the middle finger and just not go to games anymore.
I think it might be easier for me because I haven’t lived in the city since 1994 - no temptation to go to games or spend money on the team. I’ve been to a couple games with my kids just so they can experience the stadium when I’m in town visiting other family, but that’s all Nutting will ever get from me unless he starts taking his ownership role seriously.
Of course, I’m forever the optimist… this is year 5 of this management team, so I’d like to think changes will be made in-season or off-season at worse. They seem to have some talent, but everyone shrivels up when they arrive in Pittsburgh and flourishes when they leave for the minors or other teams. They need a complete overhaul in instruction and management.
11 Ks, 6 innings, no hits, 100 pitches so I think he’s done. There’s still 3 innings for our pen to blow it, but it’s looking like a rare good day to be a Bucco fan.
Good question. As a Pirate fan, I always remember Jose Deleon’s 1985 season where he went 2-19 with a 4.70 ERA. Not the best ERA, but deserved more than 2 wins. The Pirates averaged 2.3 runs for him. Seems like lack of run support was a career long trend for him even after leaving Pittsburgh: https://retrosimba.com/2024/03/11/lots-of-great-starts-sad-endings-for-jose-deleon/
For a single season probably Clemens or deGrom. Clemens was 13-8 in 2005 with a 1.87 era and deGrom was 10-9 in 2018 with a 1.70 era. Both should have easily won 20 games.
I believe Grinke is the all time leader of 6 or more innings giving up 1 or fewer runs and not getting a win or the team losing. He has like 40 starts with no runs scored for him. Glavine, Ryan, Clemens, Scherzer, and Verlander have a surprisingly high number as well
Maddux has something like 0.3 runs per game less scored for him than his teammates in his career. Some of that was due to his personal defensive catchers but still some significance there.
Comments
What a collapse by the bullpen. Rain delay did them a favor to kill some of the momentum
There’s my Pirates in a nutshell… pretty darn good start from Skenes, then 73 straight balls after he’s pulled and 5* runs walked in, then the freaking grounds crew can’t even cover the field… they almost rolled the tarp over 2 clowns who thought they could jump over it while it was in motion, then came up 6 ft short and couldn’t cover all the dirt near home plate.
ETA - sorry, only 4 runs walked in, the last was an infield hit. It only seemed like 5 were walked in because the guy after Skenes threw only 6 strikes in his 23 pitches.
Jim
That 15 straight could be a recent record. Considering the work he did in the 2nd I would have let him clean up his mess in the 5th as well. His velo was down a little bit he was still all over the edges. Anyways. He wasn’t overmatched and looked in control out there.
You are pretty obtuse Basebal21, your definition of a rest day is simply wrong. It is not 24 hours since the pitcher pitched, it is one calendar day without pitching. Super simple and you appear to be the only one that believes otherwise.
Every level of baseball that publishes pitcher rest day information (including MLB’s guidelines for youth pitching) has it as one calendar day. But again, you appear to be pathetically incapable of admitting you are wrong. No wonder so many folks on this board have set you on ignore.
As for Skenes, the over under on TJ surgery is 2 years for him.
Robb
I'm not obtuse at all. Again if you dont want to believe me then go listen to all the podcasts and videos of professional pitchers speaking about it not a sponsored picture for underage players. Sure if were talking little league or 15 year olds yes you add the extra time to try and prevent the coaches from abusing a kid because of the fact theres usually one or two so much better than everyone else that coaches will just abuse, But were discussing high level D1 athletes at minimum and mainly professional athletes. not kids I guess the professional athletes including CY Young winners and everything else must be wrong. If people dont like talking sports thats their choice.
Every pitcher has risk of TJ and a ton of them get it. It would be a shame if Skenes got hurt but it will probably happen which you pretty much just assume with pitchers. The one good thing is his workload at Air Force his first two years was low and LSU didnt abuse him either.
The only thing I would add to the TJ question is… UCL injuries are overuse injuries and not really cumulative use injuries - like cartilage wear for example.
This is why there are all these systems setup to manage work. The data continues to flow in.
I know what you’re saying though about the time in AAA about why not have him throwing those innings in the majors. I just think they’re following the playbook and they’re saying they’re following the playbook.
He throws so easy. Doesn’t have the big leg kick but looks like the easy heat Ryan had.
He also hasn’t been a pitcher his entire life like so many… much less overall wear on his arm than most MLB rookie pitchers.
They said on the broadcast that he’s the fastest draft pick to the majors in 35 years (I may be paraphrasing, I don’t remember if there were qualifiers there like “first 21 year old first round pick from LSU who’s dating an influencer”
). As I said before… as a fan of the team and in another lost season, I’m good with them playing it safe.
And whaddaya know, the Buccos pulled out the win after walking in 6 runs in a single inning. That might be a first in MLB history.
Jim
UCL injuries can happen suddenly but can also build over time. Otahni is a good example of someone that was pitching through a partial tear for a while not wanting an MRI until it got to bad. Unfortunately some of these guys like Walker Buheler have had it before they ever get to the pros and a second one has a low recovery rate.
As mentioned I do like Skenes chances more given his frame, less work in college and before and how easy things come out of his hand. I do hope he stays healthy so we can all see what he can do
The definition of a rest day for a pitcher is the same in little league, in high school, in D1, and in the majors. There is only one person in this discussion that believes a rest day for a pitcher is 24 hours since they last pitched and not a calendar day. Even a simple cursory search will show that when a starting pitcher pitches on "3 days rest" (like they sometimes do in the playoffs) it is 3 calendar days between games.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1812391-does-throwing-top-pitchers-on-short-rest-pay-off-in-the-postseason
Baseball-reference.com has a days of rest for calculating how pitchers perform in different scenarios and it uses calendar days between starts.
Basebal21 was wrong about how frequently pitchers pitch on short rest and then decided to make up a definition of a rest day to save face.
Anyway, as pretty much anyone that has "discussed sports" with Basebal21 on this forum realizes, he is basically a brick wall. He thinks he knows everything about anything sports related but time and time again has been shown to be wrong about something specific but for some reason is utterly incapable of admitting he doesn't actually know something.
Robb
This above is also how I understand “rest” day calculations. I’m not aware of anyone calculating the hourly interval between starts but it could be done.
I know the have stricter rules at youth levels now and I’m unfamiliar with those.
It’s more odd to me because it’s so far off topic. Let’s call it 6 days or 2 days. It wasn’t pertinent.
Youth baseball and high level baseball like top D1 teams, MLB etc are completely different animals. The big D1 programs and the facilities the pros train at most of them go so far as to have screens attached to the weight racks that measure things like speed power and out put that tell you if youre having a good day or a bad day and some players will have the rings or an apple watch tracking things for programs saying red or green day for how hard to go that day etc.
Physical strain and recover is measured by time not a calendar. If you start running at 11:45pm and stop at 12:45 am you didnt run for two days, you ran for an hour. Same reason why often times if you had a 7pm game and then a noon game the next day the backup catcher will start. If you workout at 9pm on Tuesday and then again at 6am on Thursday its the same calendar time as 9pm both days but significantly less recovery time.
The youth changes have been good though trying to force extra time for players still growing. I used to coach travel ball in the offseason during my playing days and it was disgusting what you would see from some coaches. I ended up stopping just because I couldnt watch it anymore when in a tournament I saw a 13 year kid throw 120 pitches the first game, catch the second game, then start against us again in the championship the next day.
The talent gap in youth ball is massive and the stud pitchers get abused by a lot of coaches to the point rules basically had to be put in place in a lot of the leagues
But when we’re talking about 5 man rotations we’re talking about 4 full days between starts at a minimum.
If a guy pitches at 12pm on Monday.
Then he pitches at 7pm on Saturday we don’t say he had 5 days rest. Or that he had about 125 hours of rest.
I’m sure they’re capturing that information but that’s not what we’re talking about here. I’m invested in finding how far this rabbit hole goes though.
Fans or journalists may not say that but 125 would be whats considered. That time frame wouldnt be thought about at all though. Noon or 7pm wouldnt make any difference other than a shorter pregame schedule and maybe being a little sleepy
I mean you’re right and you’re wrong. The big thing now is chronic workload and acute workload metrics. As far as what everyone is talking about regarding rest — you’re wrong and then you’re wrong and even if we count by hours…. wrong.
And now we’re talking about talking about something unrelated to the sub-topic of the divergent topic about Skenes.
Its poetic if nothing else.
Tons of players, coaches, trainers have talked about it publicly. I'll try and stay away from insights about behind the scenes stuff about training and workload since apparently people dont like learning about it when it comes to high level athletics
For real. I don’t even know what you’re talking about. But ok. Pitchers never pitch on 4 days rest except, and only sometimes, in the postseason.
The insights are excellent. What are your per-throw workload coefficients? We measure every throw today. Not just pitches.
It typically takes 2-3 outing for a pitcher before the hitters get a read on him and can time his pitches and movement.
For the first time in 2024 the Brewers don't have TBD pitching in a series! I thought I've watched every game, but I've missed every one of his starts somehow.
Good luck Bucs. You got Rea, Ross, and our most recent debut Gasser.
Gotta give the Brewers an A+ on this season so far. Exceeding expectations and managing some serious injuries to the pitching staff. Yelich is still breathing fire after being out for 23 games with yet-another-back-issue. He needs Yoga in his life.. or something.
For real. My wife just said to me “that little Asian girl has some pop in her bat” when Conner Joe hit that HR in the 9th.
Have the game on today between meetings... got out of hand fast. Brewers have 2 players in the 6th which need one more leg for a cycle...
Frelick: HR, 2B, 1B
Contreras: HR, 3B, 1B
Skenes’ second start this afternoon for anyone (like me) still paying attention to this god-awful team…
Jim
still paying attention to this god-awful team.
As bad as you might think they are, there are seven teams with a lower winning percentage, two in the Pirates division. Is the NL Central really that bad??
For the Pirates fans that have stuck around the last 30 years I commend you and hope they win, but for your own sake, if the Pirates don't spend heavily when their prospects mature, then you need to give the middle finger and just not go to games anymore.
I think it might be easier for me because I haven’t lived in the city since 1994 - no temptation to go to games or spend money on the team. I’ve been to a couple games with my kids just so they can experience the stadium when I’m in town visiting other family, but that’s all Nutting will ever get from me unless he starts taking his ownership role seriously.
Of course, I’m forever the optimist… this is year 5 of this management team, so I’d like to think changes will be made in-season or off-season at worse. They seem to have some talent, but everyone shrivels up when they arrive in Pittsburgh and flourishes when they leave for the minors or other teams. They need a complete overhaul in instruction and management.
Jim
Whoa, perfect through 2 with 6Ks
Ron Necciai, anyone
Jim
11 Ks, 6 innings, no hits, 100 pitches so I think he’s done. There’s still 3 innings for our pen to blow it, but it’s looking like a rare good day to be a Bucco fan.
Jim
Got through 6 and pitched great. That’s a start!
Looks like the bats are working outside of Milwaukee so that’s also appreciated!
Jones also pitched great yesterday. Good series so far.
That was a stellar outing by Skenes, maybe he's the real deal.
12:35 start today for Skenes
Jim
So I guess Skenes is just going to be the new deGrom where the Pirates will consistently rob him of wins
Left with a 6-1 lead after 6. I’m watching on delay, but the pen blew his lead yet again.
Jim
Who’s the best pitcher in baseball history with the worst run support? McCormick maybe?
Good question. As a Pirate fan, I always remember Jose Deleon’s 1985 season where he went 2-19 with a 4.70 ERA. Not the best ERA, but deserved more than 2 wins. The Pirates averaged 2.3 runs for him. Seems like lack of run support was a career long trend for him even after leaving Pittsburgh: https://retrosimba.com/2024/03/11/lots-of-great-starts-sad-endings-for-jose-deleon/
Jim
For a single season probably Clemens or deGrom. Clemens was 13-8 in 2005 with a 1.87 era and deGrom was 10-9 in 2018 with a 1.70 era. Both should have easily won 20 games.
I believe Grinke is the all time leader of 6 or more innings giving up 1 or fewer runs and not getting a win or the team losing. He has like 40 starts with no runs scored for him. Glavine, Ryan, Clemens, Scherzer, and Verlander have a surprisingly high number as well
Maddux has something like 0.3 runs per game less scored for him than his teammates in his career. Some of that was due to his personal defensive catchers but still some significance there.