I just read their financial reports. I’m sure the yahoo reporter in his PJs understands it perfectly but even the tweet numbers are showing the top line revenue and not much detail on the operating costs, ebitda, and realized profits. The financials are available. The only information you should trust is the GAAP numbers.
Yahoo had the revenue and income mixed up. They also got the per game revenue wrong.
Forbes mentioned double digit profit growth. They had double digit revenue growth. Oops. Close enough.
I didn’t look at the 3rd.
They would be profitable if they were not spending so much on facilities and carrying so much debt for liberty.
I don’t think your thesis is necessarily wrong. I don’t think it’s as bad as you make it seem for the Pirates. I think maybes there is $30MM/yr. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t afford some large contracts. Anyways. I do agree with you in principle here but your supporting data isn’t correct.
I just read their financial reports. I’m sure the yahoo reporter in his PJs understands it perfectly but even the tweet numbers are showing the top line revenue and not much detail on the operating costs, ebitda, and realized profits. The financials are available. The only information you should trust is the GAAP numbers.
Yahoo had the revenue and income mixed up. They also got the per game revenue wrong.
Forbes mentioned double digit profit growth. They had double digit revenue growth. Oops. Close enough.
I didn’t look at the 3rd.
They would be profitable if they were not spending so much on facilities and carrying so much debt for liberty.
I don’t think your thesis is necessarily wrong. I don’t think it’s as bad as you make it seem for the Pirates. I think maybes there is $30MM/yr. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t afford some large contracts. Anyways. I do agree with you in principle here but your supporting data isn’t correct.
Those werent all talking about the same years. Theres countless other articles and sources out there I just didnt want to post a 1000 links. Also keep in mind that the teams are allowed to use future contracts obligations to lower reported profits. Not to mention most of the teams have an ownership stake in their stadiums and own things around the stadium and their tv networks etc. Even the As leaving Oakland still own half the stadium and will get half of whatever revenue it generates or half of the sale price
Even if Jess Passan or Forbes didnt get the number exactly right down to the penny the point is that owning a MLB team is wildly profitable. If it wasnt the As, Cleveland, Pitt etc would all be sold immediately. Only a handful of owners currently are currently huge baseball fans that really want to win. Sadly most of the owners that were that way have passed away
The Pirates owner is one of the worst offenders of this despite having that amazing ball park and a market that absolutely loves their sports. If they got an owner that really cared about putting the best product out there theyd be a neutral team to me, until then though I do like seeing them not get rewarded
I agree with that for the most part. I was just trying to get an idea how how much money the pirates could spend on salary, while maintaining league average operating income, without going into the black.
Buying a MLB team in the past 20 years has been an amazing investment and a ATM at the same time.
Rowdy Tellez?
Okay this is a guy I would want on my slow pitch softball team because he would bring 5 cases of beer to every game.
This is not a guy I would want on my mlb team because he’s 6’4”, 320 lbs., and has a career ops+ of 99.
When you have this guy playing regularly on your team and especially at a traditional power position like first base he’s just hurting your team.
And i thought the twins made a really bad move signing an aging Carlos Santana but he’s doing a lot better than Tellez.
@bgr said:
Milwaukee got a couple good seasons worth of both Tellez and Santana.
I have something against Santana because the Royals had him for 1 full year, and I could make an argument that he was the worst player in baseball that year, then they inexplicably brought him back for part of the next season before finally unloading him.
Skenes gave up a lead off homer today then shut them down the rest of his 6 innings. ERA at 2.06. Of course, it’s 1-1 today headed into extras because the offense is still putrid
Ironically Pirates most likely would have a Wild Card spot right now if they didnt try and manipulate Skenes service time for two months throwing 50 pitches a game in AAA. The front office is apparently upset too that the owner is saying they have freedom to make improvements but that their hands are actually tied financially for more profit.
That said, it was the right move to take Skenes out today with his 7 inning no hitter. If he goes back out could have easily ended up in a situation where hes at like a 125 pitches and 1 inning left for a no hitter which really then gets people fired up if you pull him. Skenes has been a stud as expected
Nutting's cheapness again proving to be the deciding factor between the team competing and languishing in last place and sub .500.
Even worse, he made comments suggesting they would add payroll leading up to the trade deadline (something they absolutely were not going to do) which was nothing more than a means to goose more people into buying tickets and going to games.
They are next to last in payroll and their young and great pitching staff is the only reason they're sniffing .500. The GM will most certainly be sacrificed this year when the team again finishes last, but we all know that's a coverup.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
I’m no Nutting defender, but the problems are bigger than his refusal to spend money. How many non-pitchers have they developed from drafting them until the majors? Brian Reynolds came via trade, O’Neil Cruz via trade, KeBryan Hayes is all glove no bat (he’s dead last in OPS among batters with enough PAs to qualify). No outfielders come up through their system. No 1Bs, no 3Bs. Got a few catchers - Bart as a gift from SF, Endy from the Mets, and Henry as a 1.1 draft pick toiling in AAA to try to learn to both hit AND catch. Even the best teams out there with the highest payrolls develop players. The Pirates have the 27th ranked minor league system - no relief in sight.
Cherington’s not going anywhere - if there’s one thing we Pirates fans have learned it’s that Nutting waits 2-3 years too long to make changes. Manager leaves his best hitters on the bench in tie games in the 9th and 10th, why? He’ll still be around next year too. Hitting coach can’t teach anyone to hit - he’ll still be there. It’s Groundhog Day for us.
The team has refused to spend money at all levels - it's not an accident or coincidence the farm system is in shambles.
There were plenty of mid-level bats available that would have moved the needle on their 27th-ranked OPS and pushed them into contention. If there's no relief in sight from the farm system, then it's clear the reason they are not competing for a playoff spot is the 29th-ranked payroll.
Since Nutting has taken over, the highest they've ever ranked in payroll was 23rd in 2016. Since then? 25, 26, 28, 29, 30, 28, 29th.
Nutting's cheapness is the cause for the team's malaise. Yes, not developing players is contributing, but even a modicum of spending would be enough to get this team into the playoffs.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
Spending is definitely an issue for the Pirates. Theyve never had a payroll over 117 million and only 4 times have they had a payroll over 97 million. Theyre usually in the 50-80 range which means theyre basically just a farm system for other teams. Cole, Musgrove, Tallion, to name a few were all Pirates. Theyve done a pretty decent job with pitchers, hitters not so much. Problem is whenever someone gets good as soon as they start getting expensive they trade them away and are just in a constant reset make as much money as possible mode.
@Basebal21 said:
Spending is definitely an issue for the Pirates. Theyve never had a payroll over 117 million and only 4 times have they had a payroll over 97 million. Theyre usually in the 50-80 range which means theyre basically just a farm system for other teams. Cole, Musgrove, Tallion, to name a few were all Pirates. Theyve done a pretty decent job with pitchers, hitters not so much. Problem is whenever someone gets good as soon as they start getting expensive they trade them away and are just in a constant reset make as much money as possible mode.
@Basebal21 said:
Spending is definitely an issue for the Pirates. Theyve never had a payroll over 117 million and only 4 times have they had a payroll over 97 million. Theyre usually in the 50-80 range which means theyre basically just a farm system for other teams. Cole, Musgrove, Tallion, to name a few were all Pirates. Theyve done a pretty decent job with pitchers, hitters not so much. Problem is whenever someone gets good as soon as they start getting expensive they trade them away and are just in a constant reset make as much money as possible mode.
Sounds like Oakland A's and the Tampa Bay Ray's
Pretty much. Since 2007 most of the years the Pirates have been able to cover their payroll simply off of ticket sales, concessions, parking and merchandise. Which means that their tv deals and the around 90 million every team gets from national league revenue has just been going in the owners pocket. Their GMs get a bad rap and some of it is deserving, but theyve been handcuffed with what they are allowed to spend so an owner can get another private plane or mansion
@Basebal21 said:
Spending is definitely an issue for the Pirates. Theyve never had a payroll over 117 million and only 4 times have they had a payroll over 97 million. Theyre usually in the 50-80 range which means theyre basically just a farm system for other teams. Cole, Musgrove, Tallion, to name a few were all Pirates. Theyve done a pretty decent job with pitchers, hitters not so much. Problem is whenever someone gets good as soon as they start getting expensive they trade them away and are just in a constant reset make as much money as possible mode.
Sounds like Oakland A's and the Tampa Bay Ray's
Pretty much. Since 2007 most of the years the Pirates have been able to cover their payroll simply off of ticket sales, concessions, parking and merchandise. Which means that their tv deals and the around 90 million every team gets from national league revenue has just been going in the owners pocket. Their GMs get a bad rap and some of it is deserving, but theyve been handcuffed with what they are allowed to spend so an owner can get another private plane or mansion
Well. Profits certainly go into the owners pockets. That’s how a business functions. You just expect them to all operate at a loss, and some to operate $150MM in the red just to keep pace with the big clubs. That’s just not realistic because, first, and foremost, these are businesses.
I expect them to try and be competitive and not pocket over 100 million a year an d use the team as a piggy bank for their real estate empires. No team should ever have a payroll under 150 million. Every team still turns a significant profit at that number
It's hilarious to suggest any MLB team is operating at a loss. Next, I will hear someone say higher costs at the grocery store is due to inflation and not corporate greed.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
@Mistlin said:
It's hilarious to suggest any MLB team is operating at a loss. Next, I will hear someone say higher costs at the grocery store is due to inflation and not corporate greed.
Whether you think something is hilarious or not doesn’t move any needles for me. That MLB teams are operating at losses some years is a fact that can be proven. Basebal21 dug up the information on the Braves recently. Those filings are public and available for your perusal. Glad you could learn something.
Lol you mean the Braves pocketing over 100 million in profits last year with a payroll over 200 million and thats even after all of the tax tricks that are used to show less profits?
Every team gets almost 90 million from the leagues national revenues The Padres who were one of the first to do it get 10 million a year for a small Motorola patch on their jersey.
No MLB team is operating at a loss any losses shown are accounting tricks because theyre allowed to use future salaries commitments to negate profits in the books
@Basebal21 said:
Lol you mean the Braves pocketing over 100 million in profits last year with a payroll over 200 million and thats even after all of the tax tricks that are used to show less profits?
Every team gets almost 90 million from the leagues national revenues The Padres who were one of the first to do it get 10 million a year for a small Motorola patch on their jersey.
No MLB team is operating at a loss any losses shown are accounting tricks because theyre allowed to use future salaries commitments to negate profits in the books
Tax tricks? Obviously you are not an owner of a corporation. Yes. Tax tricks like deducting your expenses.
I didn’t say that the Braves lose money every year. I just say that some teams some years spend more money than the team makes. It is what it is. There’s some saying about horses and water leading me to believe I’m taking to one.
@Basebal21 said:
Lol you mean the Braves pocketing over 100 million in profits last year with a payroll over 200 million and thats even after all of the tax tricks that are used to show less profits?
Every team gets almost 90 million from the leagues national revenues The Padres who were one of the first to do it get 10 million a year for a small Motorola patch on their jersey.
No MLB team is operating at a loss any losses shown are accounting tricks because theyre allowed to use future salaries commitments to negate profits in the books
Tax tricks? Obviously you are not an owner of a corporation. Yes. Tax tricks like deducting your expenses.
I didn’t say that the Braves lose money every year. I just say that some teams some years spend more money than the team makes. It is what it is. There’s some saying about horses and water leading me to believe I’m taking to one.
I wouldnt be surprised if you tried to argue with me if I said the earth wasnt flat. Its fine but its obvious that you are unaware of the special tax rules pro teams have and are unaware of how much revenue they actually make. If you dont want to believe me at least do some actual research
Its a known fact that the Pirates since Robert Nutting has bought the team will basically never spend more than a dollar more than their merch, tickets, concessions, and parking will cover. That means hes pocketing all of the tv money and league sharing money every year which is over 100 million dollars Their GMs have been complaining for decades about having their hands tied and not being allowed to take on money in trades and theres even the " Robert Nutting" problem that has been coined as a problem for baseball hes been so bad about it. Tampa does it too and the As took it to the extreme to try and move the team to Vegas who doesnt want them.
Theres only one team in the big 4 sports that may have been losing money, the Phoenix Coyotes. Even before that sale it wasnt entirely clear if they really were losing money of if the owner was just funneling money to other things knowing the league would pay his bills for him. It would be embarrassing for the league to admit that if that was happening, but owners are almost never forced to sell and he was forced to sell
@Basebal21 said:
Lol you mean the Braves pocketing over 100 million in profits last year with a payroll over 200 million and thats even after all of the tax tricks that are used to show less profits?
Every team gets almost 90 million from the leagues national revenues The Padres who were one of the first to do it get 10 million a year for a small Motorola patch on their jersey.
No MLB team is operating at a loss any losses shown are accounting tricks because theyre allowed to use future salaries commitments to negate profits in the books
Tax tricks? Obviously you are not an owner of a corporation. Yes. Tax tricks like deducting your expenses.
I didn’t say that the Braves lose money every year. I just say that some teams some years spend more money than the team makes. It is what it is. There’s some saying about horses and water leading me to believe I’m taking to one.
I wouldnt be surprised if you tried to argue with me if I said the earth wasnt flat. Its fine but its obvious that you are unaware of the special tax rules pro teams have and are unaware of how much revenue they actually make. If you dont want to believe me at least do some actual research
Its a known fact that the Pirates since Robert Nutting has bought the team will basically never spend more than a dollar more than their merch, tickets, concessions, and parking will cover. That means hes pocketing all of the tv money and league sharing money every year which is over 100 million dollars Their GMs have been complaining for decades about having their hands tied and not being allowed to take on money in trades and theres even the " Robert Nutting" problem that has been coined as a problem for baseball hes been so bad about it. Tampa does it too and the As took it to the extreme to try and move the team to Vegas who doesnt want them.
Theres only one team in the big 4 sports that may have been losing money, the Phoenix Coyotes. Even before that sale it wasnt entirely clear if they really were losing money of if the owner was just funneling money to other things knowing the league would pay his bills for him. It would be embarrassing for the league to admit that if that was happening, but owners are almost never forced to sell and he was forced to sell
You nailed it right on the head.
The people able to accumulate enough wealth to own a professional sports franchise are not in the business of losing money, regardless of the prestige that comes from being in such a select and exclusive group. If these enterprises weren't making money hand over fist, (a) these owners would be lining up to sell; and (b) there wouldn't be record purchase prices each and every time a franchise comes up for sale.
Fortunately for these billionaires they don't have to open their books and prove just how much money they are losing (making), so they can both cry poor (fleecing unwitting taxpayers into funneling more of their money to these crooks) and take in tens of millions of dollars each and every year.
What's worse are the people in this thread suggesting that owners are somehow losing money. ha!
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
I don’t think anyone suggested that owners are losing money - certainly not me. But. Not every team is in the black every year. Overall, owning a sports team has been one of the best investments you could make. That doesn’t mean all teams are making the same or in the same financial position and it certainly doesn’t mean that owners are not in this business to make money.
If it makes you feel better. They’re all sitting on trillions and making more every day. Who cares.
Here’s one more example. The Mets are not making money. Cohen has been spending his own money.
Rowdy Tellez DFAd with 6 games left and 4 plate appearances short of a 200k incentive bonus. Theres no argument that the Pirates arent manipulating contracts
Skenes finishes the year 11-3 with a 1.96 era and 170 Ks in 133 innings. Hopefully he will win the CY and get his full year of service time. He deserves a full year, they even pulled him early tonight to try and minimize the chance
He was by far the best starter in the NL despite the Pirates attempts to manipulate his service time even giving him a short start at the end. He deserves the CY Young. He was better than Sale and Wheeler.
There are other ways he can get the full year of service time and its a joke if he doesnt get any of them.
By far the best starter is an absolute stretch. He wasn’t the best starter by far and I don’t think he was given the opportunities to be the best starter. So that is moot and I don’t see how he could win the CY and I don’t think he should. I think he will finish 3rd but most projections have him 5th.
@Basebal21 said:
He was by far the best starter in the NL despite the Pirates attempts to manipulate his service time even giving him a short start at the end. He deserves the CY Young. He was better than Sale and Wheeler.
There are other ways he can get the full year of service time and its a joke if he doesnt get any of them.
I agree he was the best starter. I wouldn't hold poor management decisions against Skenes either.
Skenes has a 214 ERA+ in 133 IP.
Sale has a 174 ERA+ in 177 IP.
Wheeler 159 ERA+ in 200 IP.
Greene 156 ERA_ in 144 IP.
Lopez 207 ERA+ in 134 IP
WAR(I know. but for simplicity here)
Sale 6.2
Wheeler 6.1
Skenes 6.0
Greene 6.0
Lopez 5.0
Sometimes it is a matter of how you look at things. I am looking at that and see that Skenes is basically tied with the other pitchers despite not being brought up until May 11 due to poor management(not for lack of talent or for being injured).
That is like going into a fight with one hand tied behind your back and still going to the 15th round for a split decision. To me, that is more impressive, and when you consider the rate stats are heavily in Skenes favor, I see him as the Cy Young winner too.
@Basebal21 said:
He was by far the best starter in the NL despite the Pirates attempts to manipulate his service time even giving him a short start at the end. He deserves the CY Young. He was better than Sale and Wheeler.
There are other ways he can get the full year of service time and its a joke if he doesnt get any of them.
I agree he was the best starter. I wouldn't hold poor management decisions against Skenes either.
Skenes has a 214 ERA+ in 133 IP.
Sale has a 174 ERA+ in 177 IP.
Wheeler 159 ERA+ in 200 IP.
Greene 156 ERA_ in 144 IP.
Lopez 207 ERA+ in 134 IP
WAR(I know. but for simplicity here)
Sale 6.2
Wheeler 6.1
Skenes 6.0
Greene 6.0
Lopez 5.0
Sometimes it is a matter of how you look at things. I am looking at that and see that Skenes is basically tied with the other pitchers despite not being brought up until May 11 due to poor management(not for lack of talent or for being injured).
That is like going into a fight with one hand tied behind your back and still going to the 15th round for a split decision. To me, that is more impressive, and when you consider the rate stats are heavily in Skenes favor, I see him as the Cy Young winner too.
Thats exactly how I look at it. It would be one thing if he had gotten hurt, but he had no control over when he got called up. It might have actually been even longer if he wasnt dating Livvy Dunne who started putting a lot of social media pressure on the Pirates to call him up.
His stats are just the best across the board. Pirates didnt give him enough innings to qualify for some of the awards but he would have won many like the era title if they did. Its even more impressive he did it on a bad pirates team that gave him little to no offensive support. He might have won 20 games even in a short season if he was pitching for the Braves.
Hopefully the voters realize this and reward him for it. Frankly it would be good for baseball if teams realize that voters will vote for the best so they might as well just start the elite guys where they belong.
I do think Jackson Merrill stole the ROY of the year away from him but Skenes should finish no lower than second in that
Skenes won ROY and and now has a full year of service time making it even dumber what the Pirates did with him.
Merril gets the full year anyways. I would have liked him getting the ROY and Skenes the CY Young but I am happy Skenes got the service time he deserves
Comments
I just read their financial reports. I’m sure the yahoo reporter in his PJs understands it perfectly but even the tweet numbers are showing the top line revenue and not much detail on the operating costs, ebitda, and realized profits. The financials are available. The only information you should trust is the GAAP numbers.
Yahoo had the revenue and income mixed up. They also got the per game revenue wrong.
Forbes mentioned double digit profit growth. They had double digit revenue growth. Oops. Close enough.
I didn’t look at the 3rd.
They would be profitable if they were not spending so much on facilities and carrying so much debt for liberty.
I don’t think your thesis is necessarily wrong. I don’t think it’s as bad as you make it seem for the Pirates. I think maybes there is $30MM/yr. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t afford some large contracts. Anyways. I do agree with you in principle here but your supporting data isn’t correct.
Those werent all talking about the same years. Theres countless other articles and sources out there I just didnt want to post a 1000 links. Also keep in mind that the teams are allowed to use future contracts obligations to lower reported profits. Not to mention most of the teams have an ownership stake in their stadiums and own things around the stadium and their tv networks etc. Even the As leaving Oakland still own half the stadium and will get half of whatever revenue it generates or half of the sale price
Even if Jess Passan or Forbes didnt get the number exactly right down to the penny the point is that owning a MLB team is wildly profitable. If it wasnt the As, Cleveland, Pitt etc would all be sold immediately. Only a handful of owners currently are currently huge baseball fans that really want to win. Sadly most of the owners that were that way have passed away
The Pirates owner is one of the worst offenders of this despite having that amazing ball park and a market that absolutely loves their sports. If they got an owner that really cared about putting the best product out there theyd be a neutral team to me, until then though I do like seeing them not get rewarded
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
I agree with that for the most part. I was just trying to get an idea how how much money the pirates could spend on salary, while maintaining league average operating income, without going into the black.
Buying a MLB team in the past 20 years has been an amazing investment and a ATM at the same time.
Rowdy Tellez?
Okay this is a guy I would want on my slow pitch softball team because he would bring 5 cases of beer to every game.
This is not a guy I would want on my mlb team because he’s 6’4”, 320 lbs., and has a career ops+ of 99.
When you have this guy playing regularly on your team and especially at a traditional power position like first base he’s just hurting your team.
And i thought the twins made a really bad move signing an aging Carlos Santana but he’s doing a lot better than Tellez.
Milwaukee got a couple good seasons worth of both Tellez and Santana.
34 - 37 - OH, Absolutely!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I have something against Santana because the Royals had him for 1 full year, and I could make an argument that he was the worst player in baseball that year, then they inexplicably brought him back for part of the next season before finally unloading him.
Would you have thought they would be ahead of the Cubs at this point in the season??
Skenes gave up a lead off homer today then shut them down the rest of his 6 innings. ERA at 2.06. Of course, it’s 1-1 today headed into extras because the offense is still putrid
Jim
I’m probably the only one still following him, but Skenes pitched 7 no-hit innings today up in Milwaukee. So far for him, through 11 starts ...
• Innings: 66 1/3
• Strikeouts: 89
• Walks: 13
• Hits: 48
• Home runs: 7
• ERA: 1.90
• Opponent slash: .202/.251/.319
• Average fastball velocity: 99.1 mph
Not too shabby.
Jim
Ironically Pirates most likely would have a Wild Card spot right now if they didnt try and manipulate Skenes service time for two months throwing 50 pitches a game in AAA. The front office is apparently upset too that the owner is saying they have freedom to make improvements but that their hands are actually tied financially for more profit.
That said, it was the right move to take Skenes out today with his 7 inning no hitter. If he goes back out could have easily ended up in a situation where hes at like a 125 pitches and 1 inning left for a no hitter which really then gets people fired up if you pull him. Skenes has been a stud as expected
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Been awhile since we bumped this comic strip of a thread
Nutting's cheapness again proving to be the deciding factor between the team competing and languishing in last place and sub .500.
Even worse, he made comments suggesting they would add payroll leading up to the trade deadline (something they absolutely were not going to do) which was nothing more than a means to goose more people into buying tickets and going to games.
They are next to last in payroll and their young and great pitching staff is the only reason they're sniffing .500. The GM will most certainly be sacrificed this year when the team again finishes last, but we all know that's a coverup.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
No one posted the standings when they were in 2nd or 3rd for weeks…. Guess we just have to wait until the season is over to see.
I’m no Nutting defender, but the problems are bigger than his refusal to spend money. How many non-pitchers have they developed from drafting them until the majors? Brian Reynolds came via trade, O’Neil Cruz via trade, KeBryan Hayes is all glove no bat (he’s dead last in OPS among batters with enough PAs to qualify). No outfielders come up through their system. No 1Bs, no 3Bs. Got a few catchers - Bart as a gift from SF, Endy from the Mets, and Henry as a 1.1 draft pick toiling in AAA to try to learn to both hit AND catch. Even the best teams out there with the highest payrolls develop players. The Pirates have the 27th ranked minor league system - no relief in sight.
Cherington’s not going anywhere - if there’s one thing we Pirates fans have learned it’s that Nutting waits 2-3 years too long to make changes. Manager leaves his best hitters on the bench in tie games in the 9th and 10th, why? He’ll still be around next year too. Hitting coach can’t teach anyone to hit - he’ll still be there. It’s Groundhog Day for us.
Jim
The team has refused to spend money at all levels - it's not an accident or coincidence the farm system is in shambles.
There were plenty of mid-level bats available that would have moved the needle on their 27th-ranked OPS and pushed them into contention. If there's no relief in sight from the farm system, then it's clear the reason they are not competing for a playoff spot is the 29th-ranked payroll.
Since Nutting has taken over, the highest they've ever ranked in payroll was 23rd in 2016. Since then? 25, 26, 28, 29, 30, 28, 29th.
Nutting's cheapness is the cause for the team's malaise. Yes, not developing players is contributing, but even a modicum of spending would be enough to get this team into the playoffs.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
Spending is definitely an issue for the Pirates. Theyve never had a payroll over 117 million and only 4 times have they had a payroll over 97 million. Theyre usually in the 50-80 range which means theyre basically just a farm system for other teams. Cole, Musgrove, Tallion, to name a few were all Pirates. Theyve done a pretty decent job with pitchers, hitters not so much. Problem is whenever someone gets good as soon as they start getting expensive they trade them away and are just in a constant reset make as much money as possible mode.
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Sounds like Oakland A's and the Tampa Bay Ray's
Pretty much. Since 2007 most of the years the Pirates have been able to cover their payroll simply off of ticket sales, concessions, parking and merchandise. Which means that their tv deals and the around 90 million every team gets from national league revenue has just been going in the owners pocket. Their GMs get a bad rap and some of it is deserving, but theyve been handcuffed with what they are allowed to spend so an owner can get another private plane or mansion
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Well. Profits certainly go into the owners pockets. That’s how a business functions. You just expect them to all operate at a loss, and some to operate $150MM in the red just to keep pace with the big clubs. That’s just not realistic because, first, and foremost, these are businesses.
I expect them to try and be competitive and not pocket over 100 million a year an d use the team as a piggy bank for their real estate empires. No team should ever have a payroll under 150 million. Every team still turns a significant profit at that number
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
It's hilarious to suggest any MLB team is operating at a loss. Next, I will hear someone say higher costs at the grocery store is due to inflation and not corporate greed.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
Whether you think something is hilarious or not doesn’t move any needles for me. That MLB teams are operating at losses some years is a fact that can be proven. Basebal21 dug up the information on the Braves recently. Those filings are public and available for your perusal. Glad you could learn something.
Lol you mean the Braves pocketing over 100 million in profits last year with a payroll over 200 million and thats even after all of the tax tricks that are used to show less profits?
Every team gets almost 90 million from the leagues national revenues The Padres who were one of the first to do it get 10 million a year for a small Motorola patch on their jersey.
No MLB team is operating at a loss any losses shown are accounting tricks because theyre allowed to use future salaries commitments to negate profits in the books
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Tax tricks? Obviously you are not an owner of a corporation. Yes. Tax tricks like deducting your expenses.
I didn’t say that the Braves lose money every year. I just say that some teams some years spend more money than the team makes. It is what it is. There’s some saying about horses and water leading me to believe I’m taking to one.
Strangely enough I just landed in Pitt. Will have to ask people here their opinions. Kind of forgot where I was headed today.
I wouldnt be surprised if you tried to argue with me if I said the earth wasnt flat. Its fine but its obvious that you are unaware of the special tax rules pro teams have and are unaware of how much revenue they actually make. If you dont want to believe me at least do some actual research
Its a known fact that the Pirates since Robert Nutting has bought the team will basically never spend more than a dollar more than their merch, tickets, concessions, and parking will cover. That means hes pocketing all of the tv money and league sharing money every year which is over 100 million dollars Their GMs have been complaining for decades about having their hands tied and not being allowed to take on money in trades and theres even the " Robert Nutting" problem that has been coined as a problem for baseball hes been so bad about it. Tampa does it too and the As took it to the extreme to try and move the team to Vegas who doesnt want them.
Theres only one team in the big 4 sports that may have been losing money, the Phoenix Coyotes. Even before that sale it wasnt entirely clear if they really were losing money of if the owner was just funneling money to other things knowing the league would pay his bills for him. It would be embarrassing for the league to admit that if that was happening, but owners are almost never forced to sell and he was forced to sell
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
This thread is actually getting to be a great read
Thanks Fellas 🍻
You nailed it right on the head.
The people able to accumulate enough wealth to own a professional sports franchise are not in the business of losing money, regardless of the prestige that comes from being in such a select and exclusive group. If these enterprises weren't making money hand over fist, (a) these owners would be lining up to sell; and (b) there wouldn't be record purchase prices each and every time a franchise comes up for sale.
Fortunately for these billionaires they don't have to open their books and prove just how much money they are losing (making), so they can both cry poor (fleecing unwitting taxpayers into funneling more of their money to these crooks) and take in tens of millions of dollars each and every year.
What's worse are the people in this thread suggesting that owners are somehow losing money. ha!
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
I don’t think anyone suggested that owners are losing money - certainly not me. But. Not every team is in the black every year. Overall, owning a sports team has been one of the best investments you could make. That doesn’t mean all teams are making the same or in the same financial position and it certainly doesn’t mean that owners are not in this business to make money.
If it makes you feel better. They’re all sitting on trillions and making more every day. Who cares.
Here’s one more example. The Mets are not making money. Cohen has been spending his own money.
Pretty much what I thought
Where is the OP?
Rowdy Tellez DFAd with 6 games left and 4 plate appearances short of a 200k incentive bonus. Theres no argument that the Pirates arent manipulating contracts
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Skenes finishes the year 11-3 with a 1.96 era and 170 Ks in 133 innings. Hopefully he will win the CY and get his full year of service time. He deserves a full year, they even pulled him early tonight to try and minimize the chance
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
He had a great rookie season. But he isn’t going to win the NL CY and getting pulled after 2 at his innings limit wasn’t the difference.
He was by far the best starter in the NL despite the Pirates attempts to manipulate his service time even giving him a short start at the end. He deserves the CY Young. He was better than Sale and Wheeler.
There are other ways he can get the full year of service time and its a joke if he doesnt get any of them.
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
By far the best starter is an absolute stretch. He wasn’t the best starter by far and I don’t think he was given the opportunities to be the best starter. So that is moot and I don’t see how he could win the CY and I don’t think he should. I think he will finish 3rd but most projections have him 5th.
I agree he was the best starter. I wouldn't hold poor management decisions against Skenes either.
Skenes has a 214 ERA+ in 133 IP.
Sale has a 174 ERA+ in 177 IP.
Wheeler 159 ERA+ in 200 IP.
Greene 156 ERA_ in 144 IP.
Lopez 207 ERA+ in 134 IP
WAR(I know. but for simplicity here)
Sale 6.2
Wheeler 6.1
Skenes 6.0
Greene 6.0
Lopez 5.0
Sometimes it is a matter of how you look at things. I am looking at that and see that Skenes is basically tied with the other pitchers despite not being brought up until May 11 due to poor management(not for lack of talent or for being injured).
That is like going into a fight with one hand tied behind your back and still going to the 15th round for a split decision. To me, that is more impressive, and when you consider the rate stats are heavily in Skenes favor, I see him as the Cy Young winner too.
Thats exactly how I look at it. It would be one thing if he had gotten hurt, but he had no control over when he got called up. It might have actually been even longer if he wasnt dating Livvy Dunne who started putting a lot of social media pressure on the Pirates to call him up.
His stats are just the best across the board. Pirates didnt give him enough innings to qualify for some of the awards but he would have won many like the era title if they did. Its even more impressive he did it on a bad pirates team that gave him little to no offensive support. He might have won 20 games even in a short season if he was pitching for the Braves.
Hopefully the voters realize this and reward him for it. Frankly it would be good for baseball if teams realize that voters will vote for the best so they might as well just start the elite guys where they belong.
I do think Jackson Merrill stole the ROY of the year away from him but Skenes should finish no lower than second in that
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
If and when the OP shows up we got a bet to settle seeings how the Pirates didn't come close to first or second in the division
Skenes won ROY and and now has a full year of service time making it even dumber what the Pirates did with him.
Merril gets the full year anyways. I would have liked him getting the ROY and Skenes the CY Young but I am happy Skenes got the service time he deserves
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007