U.S. TRADE DOLLAR THREAD
Married2Coins
Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
I hope all the Trade dollar collectors join in to this discussion. One member wrote this info and another member linked it: @alefzero published a "cherry picking" book. You can find a PDF of it as well as exhaustive research of each of the dies here -> http://registry.ssdcvams.com/Trade/
WOW. Some research!
With a new Trade dollar reference coming out sometime, I hope it is as complete as possible. In addition to each known variety as has been done (?) above I want some complete info about the Types. That's why I asked about a strange (to me) 1876 Trade dollar a while back. As a start, what are the experts going to call the Types since according to the Gobrecht Journal there are more than 2 obverses and reverses in the series. In the past, the author of each new book gets to make the call. I've seen images of different Types that are twenty years old. How about some updates with all the differences here and in the new book.
Comments
The Gobrecht journal is incorrect. As @alefzero showed, the "type 3s" are re-engravings, not a new style hub.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I always like to say “the only thing rarer than trade dollar varieties are trade dollar variety collectors”. Heh
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I'm not arguing. I just want info. I've never read anything about a Type three Trade dollar. The Journal mentions Type 1 and Type 2 coins with some unrecognized Types (2M) in the middle. More researce may have been printed that I haven't found yet.
What is the definition of a reengraved die? What has to be done to it to qualify. I do know that some Washington quarters have slightly touched up tail feathers and that is called a re-engraved die. I should imagine a hub change to be more of an obvious design change like not having the berry on the reverse.
Anyway, from what I have read (and seen in auction images) there were more than two hubs used for both sides. I've never heard the refered to a Type 3's. Am I wrong?
Trade Dollars and specifically varieties used to be pretty popular around here due to the lack of a book and a few specialists being super helpful to fill the documentation ( @crypto79 and @keoj ). But then a forum member who was a special kind of crazy got into them and soured things for all. Lots of the enthusiasts have since moved on, so you won't find nearly the enthusiasm or market for them as in the past. It's too bad, ruined a good thing.
The trade dollar obverse is one of the most beautiful American designs. The reverse - meh.
What a missed opportunity to put a ship in that water though. And yes, that is water above Liberty's foot, many people don't realize this.
Take it up with the mint.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
As with all other Liberty By the Seashore pieces - note the steam vapor direction and then look at direction of the Sail ... hum!
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
Never noticed that. Maybe it's tacking?
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Moonlight Mint Trade Dollars, Satin, Proof and Antiqued.
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Interest in the series ebbs and flows, I still enjoy collecting them and looking for varieties. Hope the next generation of collectors feels the same!
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
>
Gorgeous RPD! That's a tough one. I like the old ANACS toning, I have a couple like that. I think a lot of the younger guys (I guess I'm on the edge? in my 40s) really enjoy the series. I know I've fallen in love and really started hard after the varieties as well.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Beautiful 76-CC, Tramp!
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
Bought on eBay and freshly graded at CSNS
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
@lermish - Is there a reason chopmarks aren't considered PMD?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Reminds me of a 1797 penny.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Sold this one a few years ago.
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There are many opinions regarding this. Technically, chopmarks are PMD. But then again, so is every mark on every coin ever.
However, chops are viewed differently (by many) because they are an intrinsic part of the coin's history and evidence that the coin functioned as designed. The reason they can achieve numeric grades is thanks to @tradedollarnut 's intervention.
There is a lot if info in these forums somewhere. This thread briefly discusses -> https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1052493/pcgs-straight-graded-counterstamps-chop-marks-and-defaced-coins-thread
There is also an old PCGS article discussing this. TDN posted it here somewhat recently but I can't find it.
EDIT: here it is https://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Now-Designates-Chop-Marked-Trade-Dollars
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Excellent synopsis @lermish, thank you. Just one more devil's advocate question: How would the TPG'ers know if those chopmarks were created 150 ago or yesterday?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
There are many traits that are common to genuine chopmarks including style, wear, period correctness (chops changed over the centuries), etc.
Sometimes chops are dubious. The TPGs have mixed results with those. But most of the time there is enough to circumstantial evidence to determine authenticity with a high degree of confidence.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Nice Philadelphia chopper!!!
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
Again, thanks for that feedback @lermish! 👍 👍
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I’ve considered getting into these. How can one forum member sour things for all? Not looking to stir the pot, just trying to understand so I know what I’m getting into. Thanks -
We're not all gone, just flying a little under the radar. Since I completed my set (at least all the varieties I'm interested in - check my sig line), I'm not actively pursuing anything. However, I'm always on the lookout for upgrades and/or cherry picks (as I'm sure a few more of us are, too!)
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
I don't know anything about chops so if this is not true," well excuse me".
Anyway I was talking to someone at a show and they said the chops can identify a country and that they had one with chops from 4 different countries. I understood this was unusual.
I don't collect trade dollars but here is one, no chops (sorry it is in an airtite and I am not a photographer).
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yq4KA0mUnC8 - Dream On (Aerosmith cover) via Morgan James & Postmodern Jukebox
https://youtube.com/watch?v=m3lF2qEA2cw - Creep (Radiohead cover) via Haley Reinhart & Postmodern Jukebox
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Here is something you don't see every day: An 1875-CC chopmarked Trade Dollar with a Type II reverse. (There is a faint chopmark on the eagle's breast.) Nearly all 75-CC Trade Dollars have a Type I reverse.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
@DDR maybe because I am hoarding them. To be fair, it is not intentional and the top left one is not chopped, just a nice piece.
If you want to lighten your load you have my phone number...😉
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Show off!!!
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
What I like about Internet forums is that you can ask a direct question and no one is obligated to answer it even if it is directed to a specific poster. You see, I'm like a curious little bull dog. I've got the Trade dollar "tick" and I'm trying to scratch it off. One problem that I hope the next researcher that writes a book will avoid is to make sure the info in it is NOT OBSOLETE when it is published. IMHO, after doing a lot of reading from various sources, that was sthe fate of the section on Trade dollars in the two volumn Bower's 'Encyclopedia.
@NewEnglandRarities
@alefzero
@lermish said:
The Gobrecht journal is incorrect. As @alefzero showed, the "type 3s" are re-engravings, not a new style hub.
I'm not arguing. I just want info. I've never read anything about a Type three Trade dollar. The Journal mentions Type 1 and Type 2 coins with some unrecognized Types (2M) in the middle. More research may have been printed that I haven't found yet.
What is the definition of a reengraved die? What and HOW MUCH has to be done to it to qualify? I do know that some Washington quarters have slightly touched up tail feathers and that is called a re-engraved die. I should imagine a hub change to be more of an obvious design change like not having the berry on the reverse. Looking up all the listings by CONECA the dies were modified many times over the years. I don't think these changes are considered to be reengravings. The same has gone on with Trade dollars. From what I have read (and seen in auction images) there were more than two hubs used for both sides. I've never heard any of them called Type 3's. Am I wrong?
Responding the OP's recent request that I post in this discussion:
To summarize, the OP insists that every new trade dollar book must be updated with special insights that only he can provide, despite the fact that the information to which he refers is already published and available to everyone, including the authors. The OP is preoccupied with the trade dollar hub designs and design modifications that are apparently not described to his liking.
The new Trade Dollar thread by the OP ("TRADE DOLLAR TALK") is simply a duplicate of this discussion. The OP may not be aware that it is customary on this Forum not to create duplicate threads. The OP may find it worth considering that for a novice to say that he knows better than the experts what should appear in their newly-published books is essentially a non-starter for a thread, so it is not surprising that each thread has struggled to gain a foothold.
That being said, if there are any further comments on this topic, please direct them to this (the original) thread, rather than the duplicate version.
@IkesT
You are the man! Thanks for posting this old discussion. I was unaware it existed. I guess it died out (why?) before the book was published. I just finished reading it. I wish the two threads could be combined so I have flagged this one and will post here from now on. I will leave a link on my discussion and eventually transfer the reed counts if that is the way double subjects are handled on this forum. The military forums are different. When a discussion is inactive, new ones eventually pop up on the same subject. This keeps us from wasting time posting on forgotten threads on the same question that get resurrected as this one.
> 3) Reeds (the third side of the coin) is a different animal. Collars, I'm guessing, were probably part of each mints repertoire. I did a minor study with Dan Huntsinger many years ago and this is in Chapter 2. With one exception, TDs stayed in he range of 178 to 194 reeds. They are a PITA to count and fraught with counting mistakes. Very hard to do in a slab. The outlier to this reed range was a 1876-S with a reed count 157 (in Chapter 2). Given the challenge of counting and the possibility that collars likely changed as frequently as dies changed, it was too big a challenge.
Reed Counts from keoj's book on Trade dollars found on pp.#31 plus any additional counts from members in Bold:
1873 -C C 190
1873-S 178
1874 191
1875-CC I/II 188
1875-CC 190
1875-S/CC 184
1875-S I/I 182
1876 I/I 191
1876 I/II 191
1876 PR I/II 194
1876 PR II/II 192
1876-CC I/I 189 DDR
1876-S I/II 157
1876-s II/II 182
1877 II/II 192
1877 PR 189
1877-CC 178
1877-S II/II 183
1877-s 181
1878-S 184 DDR
1878-S II/II 182
https://forums.collectors.com/home/leaving?allowTrusted=1&target=http://registry.ssdcvams.com/Trade/
This is amazing work. @Lermish is correct. There really are titans of the Trade dollar series.
Did most of this study get transferred to the new book?
Answered myself. The new book illustrates 37 of the best varieties.
TD's have always been in my top 3 favorite types...Love the design. Here's a few I have owned: