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PCGS Straight-Graded Counterstamps, Chop Marks and Defaced Coins thread

ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 21, 2021 6:12PM in U.S. Coin Forum

It seems like the topic of chop marks being straight graded comes up a lot on the forums. I've certainly seen people ask questions about why many times, the latest showing up again in the thread: Buying obviously damaged, but ultra rare varieties....

There's some concern that chop marks are treated differently than other counterstamps and punches that are not graded, so here's a thread showcasing the different types of marks that are straight-graded by PCGS.

Please post more such coins in this thread, both ones that are straight graded by PCGS and those that are not, but you feel should be.

Chop Marked Trade Dollar - PCGS AU58 POP 2/0 - David Reimer

1804 Dexter Dollar - PCGS PR65 POP 1/2 - James Villa Dexter, Brent Pogue, Bruce Morelan

1854-O Quarter Eagle - J.L. Polhemus Druggist Counterstamp - Brunk P-563 - PCGS XF45

Anguilla Liberty Dollar - PCGS AU53 POP 1/1

1979 Papal Visit Mel Wacks Counterstamp - PCGS MS66 POP 2/0

1941 Western Reserve Numismatic Club Counterstamp - PCGS MS63 POP 1/0

Comments

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021 7:52AM

    Here are some Mint stamped coins and patterns:

    1814 Platinum Half Dollar - J-44a - PCGS XF40 POP 1/0

    1860 E50C Half Dollar, Judd-269, Pollock-317, R.8 -- Mint Defaced -- PCGS PR65 BN POP 1/0 CAC - Lenox-Cox-Boosel-Ivy-Queller-Simpson

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021 7:54AM

    This is partially in response to the following post:

    @RogerB said:
    I understand your umbrage at "mutilated." Maybe if we could routinely read and understand Cantonese they would become more like merchant counterstamps on other coins. However, to treat analogous 3-rd party punches differently is inconsistent and unfair to other collectors who have equally valid interests.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12282085/#Comment_12282085

    Based on the above, I would say that PCGS straight-grades many punches with "equally valid interests" and perhaps it's worth becoming familiar with Canonese if one has these questions. Additionally, PCGS China appears to be a big business: https://www.pcgs.com.cn/ .

  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Here are some Mint stamped coins and patterns:

    1814 Platinum Half Dollar - J-44a - PCGS XF40 POP 1/0

    Someone really had fun with the platinum half. Is there any other coin with such rarity and value that has been defaced in such an over-the-top and haphazard manner? The irony is amusing, and I can't help but smile whenever I see that photo.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021 8:08AM

    @IkesT said:

    @Zoins said:
    Here are some Mint stamped coins and patterns:

    1814 Platinum Half Dollar - J-44a - PCGS XF40 POP 1/0

    Someone really had fun with the platinum half. Is there any other coin with such rarity and value that has been defaced in such an over-the-top and haphazard manner? The irony is amusing, and I can't help but smile whenever I see that photo.

    It would have been pretty fun to strike so many marks into that coin!

    If I owned that, I'd be very tempted to have some fun and add my own "P" ;)

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's an elusive MS trade dollar I made back in 2016. Kind of wished I'd kept her. But she was a catch and release...

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @IkesT said:

    @Zoins said:
    Here are some Mint stamped coins and patterns:

    1814 Platinum Half Dollar - J-44a - PCGS XF40 POP 1/0

    Someone really had fun with the platinum half. Is there any other coin with such rarity and value that has been defaced in such an over-the-top and haphazard manner? The irony is amusing, and I can't help but smile whenever I see that photo.

    It would have been pretty fun to strike so many marks into that coin!

    If I owned that, I'd be very tempted to have some fun and add my own "P" ;)

    If you could you sneak another one in with the same style "P" punch and still get it to straight grade, that might just be greatest joke in numismatics. ;)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021 8:35AM

    @IkesT said:

    @Zoins said:

    @IkesT said:

    @Zoins said:
    Here are some Mint stamped coins and patterns:

    1814 Platinum Half Dollar - J-44a - PCGS XF40 POP 1/0

    Someone really had fun with the platinum half. Is there any other coin with such rarity and value that has been defaced in such an over-the-top and haphazard manner? The irony is amusing, and I can't help but smile whenever I see that photo.

    It would have been pretty fun to strike so many marks into that coin!

    If I owned that, I'd be very tempted to have some fun and add my own "P" ;)

    If you could you sneak another one in with the same style "P" punch and still get it to straight grade, that might just be greatest joke in numismatics. ;)

    Perhaps, but I'd venture it could straight-grade even if our hosts knew about it, like the Dexter Dollar.

    The James Villa Dexter Dollar is a nice example and I added to the OP.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Weiss said:
    Here's an elusive MS trade dollar I made back in 2016. Kind of wished I'd kept her. But she was a catch and release...

    Beautiful coin and great catch! I'd be sorry to see her go as well!

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's one that shouldn't have made this thread. Straight graded MS63 but there's a sneaky chopmark on the obverse.

    Funny thing is, I sent this in as part of a submission with about 20 other obviously chopmarked pieces. I even wrote "chopmark" in the notes, so I have to think they looked for the chopmark and still missed it. Still in the MS63 holder today.

  • truebloodtrueblood Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭

    Question,
    why does all of the above coins properly identify the coins with either the term chop mark or counterstamp etc except for the 1804 Dollar with the counter stamped "D"?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @trueblood said:
    Question,
    why does all of the above coins properly identify the coins with either the term chop mark or counterstamp etc except for the 1804 Dollar with the counter stamped "D"?

    Do you mean “counterstamp” without a space and “counter stamp” with a space?

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Because the 1804 dollar doesn’t have a Chinese chopmark or official counter mark.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I honestly don’t think chop marked coins are straight graded. I think the ‘chop mark’ designation is part of the grade. Ie: a regular trade dollar is graded MS63. A chopmarked trade dollar is graded MS63 Chop Mark. A subtle but distinct difference.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OriginalDan said:
    Because the 1804 dollar doesn’t have a Chinese chopmark or official counter mark.

    Who determines what’s official? While called the James Villa Dexter dollar, the counter stamp is from William Forrester Dunham and seen on many coins and tokens.

  • truebloodtrueblood Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭

    @OriginalDan said:
    Because the 1804 dollar doesn’t have a Chinese chopmark or official counter mark.

    It has a counterstamp, thought I wrote that pretty clearly, but oh well.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    I honestly don’t think chop marked coins are straight graded. I think the ‘chop mark’ designation is part of the grade. Ie: a regular trade dollar is graded MS63. A chopmarked trade dollar is graded MS63 Chop Mark. A subtle but distinct difference.

    This is an important point. None of these coins show only a grade on they holder (except maybe the 1804, is the mark mentioned on the holder?). The grade is combined with another designation.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021 6:06PM

    @tradedollarnut said:
    I honestly don’t think chop marked coins are straight graded. I think the ‘chop mark’ designation is part of the grade. Ie: a regular trade dollar is graded MS63. A chopmarked trade dollar is graded MS63 Chop Mark. A subtle but distinct difference.

    Technically speaking, it looks like it's a straight grade where "Chop Mark" is the variety:

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021 6:14PM

    Another thing to mention is that for some of these, the value is in the counterstamp.

    For example:

    1854-O Quarter Eagle - J.L. Polhemus Druggist Counterstamp - Brunk P-563 - PCGS XF45


  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    But technically speaking this has nothing to do with varieties as numismatists would define the word.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021 6:13PM

    @OriginalDan said:
    But technically speaking this has nothing to do with varieties as numismatists would define the word.

    Yes, but we're talking specifically about the PCGS assigned grade, not numismatists in general. The PCGS database shows a straight grade for these.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Likely due to a lack of better way to handle this, or possibly convenience.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021 6:17PM

    @OriginalDan said:
    Likely due to a lack of better way to handle this, or possibly convenience.

    Perhaps, but it seems reasonable to rely on the PCGS Cert Verification database results, unless someone from PCGS says differently.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Easiest way to tell they aren’t straight graded - an ms63 with a chopmark doesn’t have the same value as an ms63 without. Some might actually be higher but most are lower.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’d consider them straight graded for their “variety”.

    The easiest way to tell they aren’t the “opposite” of straight grades, or problem coins, is that they have a numeric grade that isn’t in the 80-99 range.

  • I noticed that CAC has a chopmark trade dollar pop report category on their website. Anyone have any with green beans? Curious as to what their guidelines are to qualify?

    Specializing in coins with "thin film interference" & "sulfur impregnated surfaces" due to hanging out with "old bags" and "wrappers"
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have a PCGS chopmarked Trade Dollar.... I think that is the only counterstamped coin I have... I just think chop marks are an interesting historical anomaly and wanted one for my collection. I have also tried - unsuccessfully - to find a chop stamp.... but seems they are never available. Cheers, RickO

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