U.S. TRADE DOLLAR THREAD

Married2Coins

I hope all the Trade dollar collectors join in to this discussion. One member wrote this info and another member linked it: @alefzero published a "cherry picking" book. You can find a PDF of it as well as exhaustive research of each of the dies here -> http://registry.ssdcvams.com/Trade/

WOW. Some research!

With a new Trade dollar reference coming out sometime, I hope it is as complete as possible. In addition to each known variety as has been done (?) above I want some complete info about the Types. That's why I asked about a strange (to me) 1876 Trade dollar a while back. As a start, what are the experts going to call the Types since according to the Gobrecht Journal there are more than 2 obverses and reverses in the series. In the past, the author of each new book gets to make the call. I've seen images of different Types that are twenty years old. How about some updates with all the differences here and in the new book.

lermish

The Gobrecht journal is incorrect. As @alefzero showed, the "type 3s" are re-engravings, not a new style hub.

tradedollarnut

I always like to say “the only thing rarer than trade dollar varieties are trade dollar variety collectors”. Heh

lermish

@tradedollarnut said:
I always like to say “the only thing rarer than trade dollar varieties are trade dollar variety collectors”. Heh

Married2Coins

@lermish said:
The Gobrecht journal is incorrect. As @alefzero showed, the "type 3s" are re-engravings, not a new style hub.

I'm not arguing. I just want info. I've never read anything about a Type three Trade dollar. The Journal mentions Type 1 and Type 2 coins with some unrecognized Types (2M) in the middle. More researce may have been printed that I haven't found yet.

What is the definition of a reengraved die? What has to be done to it to qualify. I do know that some Washington quarters have slightly touched up tail feathers and that is called a re-engraved die. I should imagine a hub change to be more of an obvious design change like not having the berry on the reverse.

Anyway, from what I have read (and seen in auction images) there were more than two hubs used for both sides. I've never heard the refered to a Type 3's. Am I wrong?

OriginalDan

Trade Dollars and specifically varieties used to be pretty popular around here due to the lack of a book and a few specialists being super helpful to fill the documentation ( @crypto79 and @keoj ). But then a forum member who was a special kind of crazy got into them and soured things for all. Lots of the enthusiasts have since moved on, so you won't find nearly the enthusiasm or market for them as in the past. It's too bad, ruined a good thing.

Manifest_Destiny

The trade dollar obverse is one of the most beautiful American designs. The reverse - meh.

OriginalDan

@Manifest_Destiny said:
The trade dollar obverse is one of the most beautiful American designs. The reverse - meh.

What a missed opportunity to put a ship in that water though. And yes, that is water above Liberty's foot, many people don't realize this.

lermish

@OriginalDan said:

@Manifest_Destiny said:
The trade dollar obverse is one of the most beautiful American designs. The reverse - meh.

What a missed opportunity to put a ship in that water though. And yes, that is water above Liberty's foot, many people don't realize this.

Take it up with the mint.

retirednow

@lermish said:

@OriginalDan said:

@Manifest_Destiny said:
The trade dollar obverse is one of the most beautiful American designs. The reverse - meh.

What a missed opportunity to put a ship in that water though. And yes, that is water above Liberty's foot, many people don't realize this.

Take it up with the mint.

As with all other Liberty By the Seashore pieces - note the steam vapor direction and then look at direction of the Sail ... hum!

lermish

@retirednow said:

@lermish said:

@OriginalDan said:

@Manifest_Destiny said:
The trade dollar obverse is one of the most beautiful American designs. The reverse - meh.

What a missed opportunity to put a ship in that water though. And yes, that is water above Liberty's foot, many people don't realize this.

Take it up with the mint.

As with all other Liberty By the Seashore pieces - note the steam vapor direction and then look at direction of the Sail ... hum!

Never noticed that. Maybe it's tacking?

Bullsitter

Moonlight Mint Trade Dollars, Satin, Proof and Antiqued.
.

kaz

Interest in the series ebbs and flows, I still enjoy collecting them and looking for varieties. Hope the next generation of collectors feels the same!

Tramp

lermish

@kaz said:
Interest in the series ebbs and flows, I still enjoy collecting them and looking for varieties. Hope the next generation of collectors feels the same!

>

Gorgeous RPD! That's a tough one. I like the old ANACS toning, I have a couple like that. I think a lot of the younger guys (I guess I'm on the edge? in my 40s) really enjoy the series. I know I've fallen in love and really started hard after the varieties as well.

kaz

Beautiful 76-CC, Tramp!

Meltdown

tradedollarnut

TennesseeDave

lermish

Bought on eBay and freshly graded at CSNS

OAKSTAR

@lermish - Is there a reason chopmarks aren't considered PMD?

Manifest_Destiny

@OriginalDan said:

@Manifest_Destiny said:
The trade dollar obverse is one of the most beautiful American designs. The reverse - meh.

What a missed opportunity to put a ship in that water though. And yes, that is water above Liberty's foot, many people don't realize this.

Reminds me of a 1797 penny.

OAKSTAR

Bullsitter

Sold this one a few years ago.
.

lermish

@OAKSTAR said:
@lermish - Is there a reason chopmarks aren't considered PMD?

There are many opinions regarding this. Technically, chopmarks are PMD. But then again, so is every mark on every coin ever.

However, chops are viewed differently (by many) because they are an intrinsic part of the coin's history and evidence that the coin functioned as designed. The reason they can achieve numeric grades is thanks to @tradedollarnut 's intervention.

There is a lot if info in these forums somewhere. This thread briefly discusses -> https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1052493/pcgs-straight-graded-counterstamps-chop-marks-and-defaced-coins-thread

There is also an old PCGS article discussing this. TDN posted it here somewhat recently but I can't find it.

EDIT: here it is https://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Now-Designates-Chop-Marked-Trade-Dollars

OAKSTAR

Excellent synopsis @lermish, thank you. Just one more devil's advocate question: How would the TPG'ers know if those chopmarks were created 150 ago or yesterday?

lermish

@OAKSTAR said:
Excellent synopsis @lermish, thank you. Just one more devil's advocate question: How would the TPG'ers know if those chopmarks were created 150 or yesterday?

There are many traits that are common to genuine chopmarks including style, wear, period correctness (chops changed over the centuries), etc.

Sometimes chops are dubious. The TPGs have mixed results with those. But most of the time there is enough to circumstantial evidence to determine authenticity with a high degree of confidence.

mbogoman

@lermish said:
Bought on eBay and freshly graded at CSNS

Nice Philadelphia chopper!!!

OAKSTAR

Again, thanks for that feedback @lermish! 👍 👍

johnny010

@OriginalDan said:
Trade Dollars and specifically varieties used to be pretty popular around here due to the lack of a book and a few specialists being super helpful to fill the documentation ( @crypto79 and @keoj ). But then a forum member who was a special kind of crazy got into them and soured things for all. Lots of the enthusiasts have since moved on, so you won't find nearly the enthusiasm or market for them as in the past. It's too bad, ruined a good thing.

I’ve considered getting into these. How can one forum member sour things for all? Not looking to stir the pot, just trying to understand so I know what I’m getting into. Thanks -

mbogoman

@johnny010 said:

@OriginalDan said:
Trade Dollars and specifically varieties used to be pretty popular around here due to the lack of a book and a few specialists being super helpful to fill the documentation ( @crypto79 and @keoj ). But then a forum member who was a special kind of crazy got into them and soured things for all. Lots of the enthusiasts have since moved on, so you won't find nearly the enthusiasm or market for them as in the past. It's too bad, ruined a good thing.

I’ve considered getting into these. How can one forum member sour things for all? Not looking to stir the pot, just trying to understand so I know what I’m getting into. Thanks -

We're not all gone, just flying a little under the radar. Since I completed my set (at least all the varieties I'm interested in - check my sig line), I'm not actively pursuing anything. However, I'm always on the lookout for upgrades and/or cherry picks (as I'm sure a few more of us are, too!)

lilolme

I don't know anything about chops so if this is not true," well excuse me".
Anyway I was talking to someone at a show and they said the chops can identify a country and that they had one with chops from 4 different countries. I understood this was unusual.

I don't collect trade dollars but here is one, no chops (sorry it is in an airtite and I am not a photographer).

DDR

Here is something you don't see every day: An 1875-CC chopmarked Trade Dollar with a Type II reverse. (There is a faint chopmark on the eagle's breast.) Nearly all 75-CC Trade Dollars have a Type I reverse.

stealer

@DDR maybe because I am hoarding them. To be fair, it is not intentional and the top left one is not chopped, just a nice piece.

lermish

@stealer said:


@DDR maybe because I am hoarding them. To be fair, it is not intentional and the top left one is not chopped, just a nice piece.

If you want to lighten your load you have my phone number...😉

mbogoman

@stealer said:


@DDR maybe because I am hoarding them. To be fair, it is not intentional and the top left one is not chopped, just a nice piece.

Show off!!!

TennesseeDave

Married2Coins

What I like about Internet forums is that you can ask a direct question and no one is obligated to answer it even if it is directed to a specific poster. You see, I'm like a curious little bull dog. I've got the Trade dollar "tick" and I'm trying to scratch it off. One problem that I hope the next researcher that writes a book will avoid is to make sure the info in it is NOT OBSOLETE when it is published. IMHO, after doing a lot of reading from various sources, that was sthe fate of the section on Trade dollars in the two volumn Bower's 'Encyclopedia.

@NewEnglandRarities
@alefzero

@lermish said:
The Gobrecht journal is incorrect. As @alefzero showed, the "type 3s" are re-engravings, not a new style hub.

I'm not arguing. I just want info. I've never read anything about a Type three Trade dollar. The Journal mentions Type 1 and Type 2 coins with some unrecognized Types (2M) in the middle. More research may have been printed that I haven't found yet.

What is the definition of a reengraved die? What and HOW MUCH has to be done to it to qualify? I do know that some Washington quarters have slightly touched up tail feathers and that is called a re-engraved die. I should imagine a hub change to be more of an obvious design change like not having the berry on the reverse. Looking up all the listings by CONECA the dies were modified many times over the years. I don't think these changes are considered to be reengravings. The same has gone on with Trade dollars. From what I have read (and seen in auction images) there were more than two hubs used for both sides. I've never heard any of them called Type 3's. Am I wrong?