There's an early season match-up this weekend that should be good, not remotely close to being a pre-view of anything, just the current two best teams in MLB facing off. The Cleveland Indians(18-7) vs. the Atlanta Braves(17-6) in Truist Park in Atlanta.
The Pirates in the meantime have slumped to 13-13 on their way to the basement.
Which pitcher on the pirates would you rather have on your roster? Skenes or Jones?
The hitting with the young pirates is going to be hot and cold - like the Os. But that duo at the top of the rotation is going to suck for the rest of the NL Central for years.
I would take Jones. Wow. After he destroyed the brewers I had to watch his other starts. The game he threw against the Mets was one of the best pitching performances I’ve seen.
@Basebal21 said:
It shouldnt be an either or question.
The answer should be both if you want the best possible roster
It’s referred to as a hypothetical question. You may also know of it as a thought experiment if you’re into philosophy. It’s always your choice whether or not to answer but your dismissal is pointless.
@Basebal21 said:
It shouldnt be an either or question.
The answer should be both if you want the best possible roster
It’s referred to as a hypothetical question. You may also know of it as a thought experiment if you’re into philosophy. It’s always your choice whether or not to answer but your dismissal is pointless.
The answer is both as it makes no sense to have brought up one and not the other. Somehow a 5 ERA in AAA gets Jones promoted but Skenes cant get a call up
IF one has to be picked Skenes. He has a higher upside and is more ready for the full season and is just getting messed up in the minors with those pitch counts
@Basebal21 said:
It shouldnt be an either or question.
The answer should be both if you want the best possible roster
It’s referred to as a hypothetical question. You may also know of it as a thought experiment if you’re into philosophy. It’s always your choice whether or not to answer but your dismissal is pointless.
The answer is both as it makes no sense to have brought up one and not the other. Somehow a 5 ERA in AAA gets Jones promoted but Skenes cant get a call up
IF one has to be picked Skenes. He has a higher upside and is more ready for the full season and is just getting messed up in the minors with those pitch counts
This is interesting. Inability to respond to a hypothetical question is a diagnostic marker.
Skenes better stuff, bigger frame, throws harder, was drafted higher, ranked ahead as a prospect, higher upside, would make more money for the franchise the list goes on and on
@Basebal21 said:
Skenes better stuff, bigger frame, throws harder, was drafted higher, ranked ahead as a prospect, higher upside, would make more money for the franchise the list goes on and on
I’m just trying to compliment Pirates fans on the solid pitching. lol. Not everything is a fight to the death.
@Basebal21 said:
Skenes better stuff, bigger frame, throws harder, was drafted higher, ranked ahead as a prospect, higher upside, would make more money for the franchise the list goes on and on
I’m just trying to compliment Pirates fans on the solid pitching. lol. Not everything is a fight to the death.
@Basebal21 said:
Skenes better stuff, bigger frame, throws harder, was drafted higher, ranked ahead as a prospect, higher upside, would make more money for the franchise the list goes on and on
I’m just trying to compliment Pirates fans on the solid pitching. lol. Not everything is a fight to the death.
Statements of fact arent a fight
Skenes vs Jones; pick 1. This is not a question soliciting a fact. It is a question of opinion, preference, or arbitrary selection.
As to other items
Better stuff. A matter of opinion.
Bigger frame. A statement of fact.
Throws harder. A statement of fact.
Drafted higher. A statement of fact.
Ranked higher. A statement of fact.
Higher upside. A matter of opinion.
Better investment. A matter of opinion.
@Basebal21 said:
Skenes better stuff, bigger frame, throws harder, was drafted higher, ranked ahead as a prospect, higher upside, would make more money for the franchise the list goes on and on
I’m just trying to compliment Pirates fans on the solid pitching. lol. Not everything is a fight to the death.
Statements of fact arent a fight
Skenes vs Jones; pick 1. This is not a question soliciting a fact. It is a question of opinion, preference, or arbitrary selection.
As to other items
Better stuff. A matter of opinion.
Bigger frame. A statement of fact.
Throws harder. A statement of fact.
Drafted higher. A statement of fact.
Ranked higher. A statement of fact.
Higher upside. A matter of opinion.
Better investment. A matter of opinion.
Your facts exist outside the parameters.
Throwing harder is factually better stuff which is also a factually higher upside
Would make more money with Livey Dunne as his current GF is also true like Taylor with Kelce whether people like it or not.
Its fact Jones threw fewer innings last year than Skenes did
Also fact Jones was bad in AAA
I dont dislike Jones for any reason between the two though Skenes should be the one in the pros and hes still not. Both should be but if it has to be one its Skenes
@Basebal21 said:
Skenes better stuff, bigger frame, throws harder, was drafted higher, ranked ahead as a prospect, higher upside, would make more money for the franchise the list goes on and on
I’m just trying to compliment Pirates fans on the solid pitching. lol. Not everything is a fight to the death.
Statements of fact arent a fight
Skenes vs Jones; pick 1. This is not a question soliciting a fact. It is a question of opinion, preference, or arbitrary selection.
As to other items
Better stuff. A matter of opinion.
Bigger frame. A statement of fact.
Throws harder. A statement of fact.
Drafted higher. A statement of fact.
Ranked higher. A statement of fact.
Higher upside. A matter of opinion.
Better investment. A matter of opinion.
Your facts exist outside the parameters.
Throwing harder is factually better stuff which is also a factually higher upside
Would make more money with Livey Dunne as his current GF is also true like Taylor with Kelce whether people like it or not.
Its fact Jones threw fewer innings last year than Skenes did
Also fact Jones was bad in AAA
I dont dislike Jones for any reason between the two though Skenes should be the one in the pros and hes still not. Both should be but if it has to be one its Skenes
This is fun.
There are many pitchers who throw and/or threw harder than Greg Maddux. Did they all have better stuff? Did they all have greater upside?
What might you have done when you’re in a corner surrounded by wet paint.
As to the making more money. You said for the franchise. Now you’re pivoting to personal income. Which is fine but it’s just another layer of distraction.
@Basebal21 said:
Skenes better stuff, bigger frame, throws harder, was drafted higher, ranked ahead as a prospect, higher upside, would make more money for the franchise the list goes on and on
I’m just trying to compliment Pirates fans on the solid pitching. lol. Not everything is a fight to the death.
Statements of fact arent a fight
Skenes vs Jones; pick 1. This is not a question soliciting a fact. It is a question of opinion, preference, or arbitrary selection.
As to other items
Better stuff. A matter of opinion.
Bigger frame. A statement of fact.
Throws harder. A statement of fact.
Drafted higher. A statement of fact.
Ranked higher. A statement of fact.
Higher upside. A matter of opinion.
Better investment. A matter of opinion.
Your facts exist outside the parameters.
Throwing harder is factually better stuff which is also a factually higher upside
Would make more money with Livey Dunne as his current GF is also true like Taylor with Kelce whether people like it or not.
Its fact Jones threw fewer innings last year than Skenes did
Also fact Jones was bad in AAA
I dont dislike Jones for any reason between the two though Skenes should be the one in the pros and hes still not. Both should be but if it has to be one its Skenes
This is fun.
There are many pitchers who throw and/or threw harder than Greg Maddux. Did they all have better stuff? Did they all have greater upside?
What might you have done when you’re in a corner surrounded by wet paint.
As to the making more money. You said for the franchise. Now you’re pivoting to personal income. Which is fine but it’s just another layer of distraction.
Maddux could throw harder he chose not to for more movement. Maddux didnt have the best stuff overall, but he had incredible command and an incredible understanding of pitch sequences and tunneling pitches to look the same until they werent. That combination made him elite.
Everything said about Skenes was a fact.
I never pivoted to personal income. Livvy Dunne showing up to a Pirates game would make the franchise far more money than a last place team that people dont really go to
Pirates answered this even quicker than most imagined.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Would love to know how the Pirates were stretching him out when in 7 starts in AAA he was never allowed to even throw more than 75 pitches, multiple starts under 50 pitches and only two starts allowed to go over 70
They didn’t claim to be stretching him out from a pitch count perspective. They were consistent in saying that he was used to pitching weekly, so they wanted to get him used to pitching every 5th day. That’s different than, say, turning a reliever into a starter and teaching him to throw more pitches. He’ll probably still be on a low pitch count but at least they feel comfortable that he can take a regular turn vs. having to be leap frogged or subbed for.
@burghman said:
They didn’t claim to be stretching him out from a pitch count perspective. They were consistent in saying that he was used to pitching weekly, so they wanted to get him used to pitching every 5th day. That’s different than, say, turning a reliever into a starter and teaching him to throw more pitches. He’ll probably still be on a low pitch count but at least they feel comfortable that he can take a regular turn vs. having to be leap frogged or subbed for.
MLB starters only make 1 start a week. The difference is 1-2 days from college which is an easy adjustment for a talent like him. Schedules arent set anymore where everyone has to throw every 5th day and teams use bullpen days as well. All they did was get him used to not throwing a lot of pitches in a game and having to do a lot more side work
They waited long enough that its going to be very hard for him to finish in the top 2 with how Imanaga and Yamamoto are pitching, not to mention Busch and some others witch prevents him from getting a full year of service.
I’m not sure why I even bother trying to have a discussion with you - it’s “your way or the highway” on every topic, but here goes…
5 days is less than 7 days. If he pitched every Sunday in college and has to pitch Sunday and Friday in the majors, isn’t that more than once a week and more frequently than in college? Everyone doesn’t HAVE to throw every 5 days but it sure as hell makes managing a rotation easier when your starters can do that. Wouldn’t it be better if you had 5 guys who could go every 5th day rather than having to always do something weird when someone’s turn comes around? Or when someone inevitably gets sick, hurt, or pitches like crap and taxes the bullpen - already having a starter who can’t go on schedule when those situations arise makes it that much harder.
I know it’s POSSIBLE to do what you’re saying, but it isn’t OPTIMAL. As I said earlier in the thread, who really cares about getting him in there? It’s not like their pitching is costing them Ws. They could have 5 1968 Bob Gibson’s and they’d only be a couple games better than they currently are.
During one of the games he pitched in they said that the pirates wanted him to get more efficient with his pitches too. At the time he was averaging 15 pitches an inning which is pretty solid so that didn’t make much sense.
Pirates should be just fine with their hitting to land 3rd in the NLC. Unfortunately the brewers will miss him if he’s pitching on Saturday. This time at least.
I’ll be the first to admit I’m no expert. Maybe bringing him up earlier gets the Pirates into 3rd, maybe bringing him up earlier gives him a chance at ROY. He’s too valuable for the future to take that chance in a meaningless year, so I’m fine with guys who know more than I do doing what they feel is best. Yeah, I know they manipulate service time - you ‘ll get no argument from me on that. Smarter people than me that have no stake in the Pirates think getting him used to 4 days rest is a great idea, so that’s good enough for me (before Basebal21 responds back with examples of people who didn’t agree with it… yeah, I know it wasn’t unanimous - nothing ever is). I just don’t see this being an egregious example compared to other examples with the Pirates of the past.
@burghman said:
I’m not sure why I even bother trying to have a discussion with you - it’s “your way or the highway” on every topic, but here goes…
5 days is less than 7 days. If he pitched every Sunday in college and has to pitch Sunday and Friday in the majors, isn’t that more than once a week and more frequently than in college? Everyone doesn’t HAVE to throw every 5 days but it sure as hell makes managing a rotation easier when your starters can do that. Wouldn’t it be better if you had 5 guys who could go every 5th day rather than having to always do something weird when someone’s turn comes around? Or when someone inevitably gets sick, hurt, or pitches like crap and taxes the bullpen - already having a starter who can’t go on schedule when those situations arise makes it that much harder.
I know it’s POSSIBLE to do what you’re saying, but it isn’t OPTIMAL. As I said earlier in the thread, who really cares about getting him in there? It’s not like their pitching is costing them Ws. They could have 5 1968 Bob Gibson’s and they’d only be a couple games better than they currently are.
How does a pitcher benefit from throwing less than 70 pitches?
Jones isnt starting every 5 days. March 30th, April 5th, April 11th, April 16th, April 22, April 28th, May 4th. Keller half his starts were every 6 days as well. Imanaga every 6th and 7th day, Louis Castillo half his starts have been 6th day or more, Yamamoto 6 to 7 day schedule. All those guys lead the league in most starts. The 5th day thing isnt standard anymore with the extra off days in the schedule
Certainly agree that hes not going to be the difference of a playoff appearance or not, but doesnt mean that he shouldnt have been there for the best product
Points always just been that a players service time shouldnt be held down or manipulated just because a bad team doesnt think they can win it all. If anything just trade him to a team trying to win for a bunch of prospects. Whether he struggles or not hes one of the rare guys where having him in the minors this year was just a complete waste of time other than trying to deny him a year of service time
The 5 man rotation can mean a pitcher pitches on 4 days rest but as teams have off days it’s really “every 5th day” which refers to game days. Not all teams use a 5 man rotation all season as well.
“With Paul, we’ve been very intentional about how we’re building his volume coming into the season with a goal of really accomplishing two things,” said general manager Ben Cherington during his 93.7 The Fan radio show Sunday. “One is to try to get him to an appropriate total volume for 2024 coming off last year, when he pitched a full college season and then just a little bit of pro ball.
“We don’t want to go from zero to 100 right away. Paul’s so important to us long term, so we want to be really thoughtful about that.”
There’s really nothing more to say about it. I realize there’s no escaping the inevitable regurgitation of the same thought.
Ignoring the fact that you artfully misunderstood what I said your claim is totally false.
Here’s a few examples.
Berrios. Twice
Allen. Twice
Bassit. Twice
Here’s what I did. I looked at pitchers ordered by games started, descending. And I looked at the first 3.
Any team that has a five man rotation is pretty likely to have this occur a few times in the season. A few teams use 6 or 7 man rotations but most are 5. Unless there’s a big chunk of consecutive days teams rarely shift from 5 to 6. These are just like “look ‘em up facts”.
@bgr said:
Ignoring the fact that you artfully misunderstood what I said your claim is totally false.
Here’s a few examples.
Berrios. Twice
Allen. Twice
Bassit. Twice
Here’s what I did. I looked at pitchers ordered by games started, descending. And I looked at the first 3.
Any team that has a five man rotation is pretty likely to have this occur a few times in the season. A few teams use 6 or 7 man rotations but most are 5. Unless there’s a big chunk of consecutive days teams rarely shift from 5 to 6. These are just like “look ‘em up facts”.
Now go look at what percentage those are of total starts. Its minuscule
@bgr said:
Ignoring the fact that you artfully misunderstood what I said your claim is totally false.
Here’s a few examples.
Berrios. Twice
Allen. Twice
Bassit. Twice
Here’s what I did. I looked at pitchers ordered by games started, descending. And I looked at the first 3.
Any team that has a five man rotation is pretty likely to have this occur a few times in the season. A few teams use 6 or 7 man rotations but most are 5. Unless there’s a big chunk of consecutive days teams rarely shift from 5 to 6. These are just like “look ‘em up facts”.
Now go look at what percentage those are of total starts. Its minuscule
For those pitchers it was 25-35 percent. But it didn’t really matter. It’s not zero during regular season which was your bizarre assertion. It was also something that no one was saying happens - no one said pitchers pitch every 5th day, all the time.
I don’t think anyone believes that pitchers in a 5-man rotation pitch every 5th calendar each turn. If you think my wording is subjective on the matter I urge you to read it again.
@bgr said:
Ignoring the fact that you artfully misunderstood what I said your claim is totally false.
Here’s a few examples.
Berrios. Twice
Allen. Twice
Bassit. Twice
Here’s what I did. I looked at pitchers ordered by games started, descending. And I looked at the first 3.
Any team that has a five man rotation is pretty likely to have this occur a few times in the season. A few teams use 6 or 7 man rotations but most are 5. Unless there’s a big chunk of consecutive days teams rarely shift from 5 to 6. These are just like “look ‘em up facts”.
Now go look at what percentage those are of total starts. Its minuscule
For those pitchers it was 25-35 percent. But it didn’t really matter. It’s not zero during regular season which was your bizarre assertion. It was also something that no one was saying happens - no one said pitchers pitch every 5th day, all the time.
I don’t think anyone believes that pitchers in a 5-man rotation pitch every 5th calendar each turn. If you think my wording is subjective on the matter I urge you to read it again.
Wasnt even close to that percentage. No math has 2 being 1/3rd of 30 starts. Berrios Allen and Bassit now go look up their career percentages and the league percentage.
@bgr said:
Ignoring the fact that you artfully misunderstood what I said your claim is totally false.
Here’s a few examples.
Berrios. Twice
Allen. Twice
Bassit. Twice
Here’s what I did. I looked at pitchers ordered by games started, descending. And I looked at the first 3.
Any team that has a five man rotation is pretty likely to have this occur a few times in the season. A few teams use 6 or 7 man rotations but most are 5. Unless there’s a big chunk of consecutive days teams rarely shift from 5 to 6. These are just like “look ‘em up facts”.
Now go look at what percentage those are of total starts. Its minuscule
For those pitchers it was 25-35 percent. But it didn’t really matter. It’s not zero during regular season which was your bizarre assertion. It was also something that no one was saying happens - no one said pitchers pitch every 5th day, all the time.
I don’t think anyone believes that pitchers in a 5-man rotation pitch every 5th calendar each turn. If you think my wording is subjective on the matter I urge you to read it again.
Wasnt even close to that percentage. No math has 2 being 1/3rd of 30 starts. Berrios Allen and Bassit now go look up their career percentages and the league percentage.
Of their starts this season.
You said it was ZERO percent during the regular season. I said it lines up that way a few times a season for pitchers on a five man rotation.
There were like 35 pitchers who had made 8 starts. I bet most of those pitchers have 1 or 2 starts on 4 days rest. One of the guys I looked at of the 3 had 2 starts in a row on 4 days rest. So for them it would be 25-35 percent as of now.
Still not sure what angle you’re wiggling for here. It’s getting pretty far off topic.
@bgr said:
Ignoring the fact that you artfully misunderstood what I said your claim is totally false.
Here’s a few examples.
Berrios. Twice
Allen. Twice
Bassit. Twice
Here’s what I did. I looked at pitchers ordered by games started, descending. And I looked at the first 3.
Any team that has a five man rotation is pretty likely to have this occur a few times in the season. A few teams use 6 or 7 man rotations but most are 5. Unless there’s a big chunk of consecutive days teams rarely shift from 5 to 6. These are just like “look ‘em up facts”.
Now go look at what percentage those are of total starts. Its minuscule
For those pitchers it was 25-35 percent. But it didn’t really matter. It’s not zero during regular season which was your bizarre assertion. It was also something that no one was saying happens - no one said pitchers pitch every 5th day, all the time.
I don’t think anyone believes that pitchers in a 5-man rotation pitch every 5th calendar each turn. If you think my wording is subjective on the matter I urge you to read it again.
Wasnt even close to that percentage. No math has 2 being 1/3rd of 30 starts. Berrios Allen and Bassit now go look up their career percentages and the league percentage.
Of their starts this season.
You said it was ZERO percent during the regular season. I said it lines up that way a few times a season for pitchers on a five man rotation.
There were like 35 pitchers who had made 8 starts. I bet most of those pitchers have 1 or 2 starts on 4 days rest. One of the guys I looked at of the 3 had 2 starts in a row on 4 days rest. So for them it would be 25-35 percent as of now.
Still not sure what angle you’re wiggling for here. It’s getting pretty far off topic.
You referenced less than 1 percent of starts overall. None of them started twice on 4 days
Berrios this year started on March 28th, then April 2nd, then April 8th, then the 14th, then the 20th, then the 25th, then the 30th, then May 7th
Bassitt started March 29th, then April 3rd, April 9th, April 15th, April 21st, April 26th, May 1st and May 7th.
Logan Allen started March 29th, April 3rd, April 9th, April 14th, April 20th, April 26th, May 2nd and May 7th
None of them started on 4 calendar days twice. Thats one of 8 starts that calendar days would consider 4 days. Not even close to 25 or 30 percent.
Rest is also measured by when you stop pitching until you do again. Its one day if you stop at 3pm on a Monday from a day game and you have a night game st 7pm on Tuesday.
@bgr said:
Ignoring the fact that you artfully misunderstood what I said your claim is totally false.
Here’s a few examples.
Berrios. Twice
Allen. Twice
Bassit. Twice
Here’s what I did. I looked at pitchers ordered by games started, descending. And I looked at the first 3.
Any team that has a five man rotation is pretty likely to have this occur a few times in the season. A few teams use 6 or 7 man rotations but most are 5. Unless there’s a big chunk of consecutive days teams rarely shift from 5 to 6. These are just like “look ‘em up facts”.
Now go look at what percentage those are of total starts. Its minuscule
For those pitchers it was 25-35 percent. But it didn’t really matter. It’s not zero during regular season which was your bizarre assertion. It was also something that no one was saying happens - no one said pitchers pitch every 5th day, all the time.
I don’t think anyone believes that pitchers in a 5-man rotation pitch every 5th calendar each turn. If you think my wording is subjective on the matter I urge you to read it again.
Wasnt even close to that percentage. No math has 2 being 1/3rd of 30 starts. Berrios Allen and Bassit now go look up their career percentages and the league percentage.
Of their starts this season.
You said it was ZERO percent during the regular season. I said it lines up that way a few times a season for pitchers on a five man rotation.
There were like 35 pitchers who had made 8 starts. I bet most of those pitchers have 1 or 2 starts on 4 days rest. One of the guys I looked at of the 3 had 2 starts in a row on 4 days rest. So for them it would be 25-35 percent as of now.
Still not sure what angle you’re wiggling for here. It’s getting pretty far off topic.
You referenced less than 1 percent of starts overall. None of them started twice on 4 days
Berrios this year started on March 28th, then April 2nd, then April 8th, then the 14th, then the 20th, then the 25th, then the 30th, then May 7th
Bassitt started March 29th, then April 3rd, April 9th, April 15th, April 21st, April 26th, May 1st and May 7th.
Logan Allen started March 29th, April 3rd, April 9th, April 14th, April 20th, April 26th, May 2nd and May 7th
None of them started on 4 calendar days twice. Thats one of 8 starts that calendar days would consider 4 days. Not even close to 25 or 30 percent.
Rest is also measured by when you stop pitching until you do again. Its one day if you stop at 3pm on a Monday from a day game and you have a night game st 7pm on Tuesday.
Five man rotation. 4 days rest minimum.
April 25th. Pitched
April 26. Day 1
April 27. Day 2
April 28. Day 3
April 29. Day 4
April 30th. Pitched.
I really don’t get what you’re on about. You’re completely wrong but you’re like trying to frame my statements into something bizarre.
Who’s saying anything about pitching twice within 4 calendar days. Just enjoy learning something. We’re all wrong sometimes. Stop being a bozo.
@bgr said:
Ignoring the fact that you artfully misunderstood what I said your claim is totally false.
Here’s a few examples.
Berrios. Twice
Allen. Twice
Bassit. Twice
Here’s what I did. I looked at pitchers ordered by games started, descending. And I looked at the first 3.
Any team that has a five man rotation is pretty likely to have this occur a few times in the season. A few teams use 6 or 7 man rotations but most are 5. Unless there’s a big chunk of consecutive days teams rarely shift from 5 to 6. These are just like “look ‘em up facts”.
Now go look at what percentage those are of total starts. Its minuscule
For those pitchers it was 25-35 percent. But it didn’t really matter. It’s not zero during regular season which was your bizarre assertion. It was also something that no one was saying happens - no one said pitchers pitch every 5th day, all the time.
I don’t think anyone believes that pitchers in a 5-man rotation pitch every 5th calendar each turn. If you think my wording is subjective on the matter I urge you to read it again.
Wasnt even close to that percentage. No math has 2 being 1/3rd of 30 starts. Berrios Allen and Bassit now go look up their career percentages and the league percentage.
Of their starts this season.
You said it was ZERO percent during the regular season. I said it lines up that way a few times a season for pitchers on a five man rotation.
There were like 35 pitchers who had made 8 starts. I bet most of those pitchers have 1 or 2 starts on 4 days rest. One of the guys I looked at of the 3 had 2 starts in a row on 4 days rest. So for them it would be 25-35 percent as of now.
Still not sure what angle you’re wiggling for here. It’s getting pretty far off topic.
You referenced less than 1 percent of starts overall. None of them started twice on 4 days
Berrios this year started on March 28th, then April 2nd, then April 8th, then the 14th, then the 20th, then the 25th, then the 30th, then May 7th
Bassitt started March 29th, then April 3rd, April 9th, April 15th, April 21st, April 26th, May 1st and May 7th.
Logan Allen started March 29th, April 3rd, April 9th, April 14th, April 20th, April 26th, May 2nd and May 7th
None of them started on 4 calendar days twice. Thats one of 8 starts that calendar days would consider 4 days. Not even close to 25 or 30 percent.
Rest is also measured by when you stop pitching until you do again. Its one day if you stop at 3pm on a Monday from a day game and you have a night game st 7pm on Tuesday.
Five man rotation. 4 days rest minimum.
April 25th. Pitched
April 26. Day 1
April 27. Day 2
April 28. Day 3
April 29. Day 4
April 30th. Pitched.
I really don’t get what you’re on about. You’re completely wrong but you’re like trying to frame my statements into something bizarre.
Who’s saying anything about pitching twice within 4 calendar days. Just enjoy learning something. We’re all wrong sometimes. Stop being a bozo.
I was simply responding to your claim about MLB pitchers on 4 days rest then the wildly inaccurate claim that those 3 pitchers did so 25-30 percent of the time this year.
"Rest is also measured by when you stop pitching until you do again. Its one day if you stop at 3pm on a Monday from a day game and you have a night game st 7pm on Tuesday."
A day of rest for pitchers is a calendar day without pitching, not 24 hours after they last pitched. This definition of rest days is what is used in little league, high school baseball, and college baseball, and in MLB recommendations for youth/adolescent pitchers.
If a reliever pitches in a day game on Monday and then a night game on Tuesday, they pitched on consecutive days with no rest day in between.
@bgr said:
Ignoring the fact that you artfully misunderstood what I said your claim is totally false.
Here’s a few examples.
Berrios. Twice
Allen. Twice
Bassit. Twice
Here’s what I did. I looked at pitchers ordered by games started, descending. And I looked at the first 3.
Any team that has a five man rotation is pretty likely to have this occur a few times in the season. A few teams use 6 or 7 man rotations but most are 5. Unless there’s a big chunk of consecutive days teams rarely shift from 5 to 6. These are just like “look ‘em up facts”.
Now go look at what percentage those are of total starts. Its minuscule
For those pitchers it was 25-35 percent. But it didn’t really matter. It’s not zero during regular season which was your bizarre assertion. It was also something that no one was saying happens - no one said pitchers pitch every 5th day, all the time.
I don’t think anyone believes that pitchers in a 5-man rotation pitch every 5th calendar each turn. If you think my wording is subjective on the matter I urge you to read it again.
Wasnt even close to that percentage. No math has 2 being 1/3rd of 30 starts. Berrios Allen and Bassit now go look up their career percentages and the league percentage.
Of their starts this season.
You said it was ZERO percent during the regular season. I said it lines up that way a few times a season for pitchers on a five man rotation.
There were like 35 pitchers who had made 8 starts. I bet most of those pitchers have 1 or 2 starts on 4 days rest. One of the guys I looked at of the 3 had 2 starts in a row on 4 days rest. So for them it would be 25-35 percent as of now.
Still not sure what angle you’re wiggling for here. It’s getting pretty far off topic.
You referenced less than 1 percent of starts overall. None of them started twice on 4 days
Berrios this year started on March 28th, then April 2nd, then April 8th, then the 14th, then the 20th, then the 25th, then the 30th, then May 7th
Bassitt started March 29th, then April 3rd, April 9th, April 15th, April 21st, April 26th, May 1st and May 7th.
Logan Allen started March 29th, April 3rd, April 9th, April 14th, April 20th, April 26th, May 2nd and May 7th
None of them started on 4 calendar days twice. Thats one of 8 starts that calendar days would consider 4 days. Not even close to 25 or 30 percent.
Rest is also measured by when you stop pitching until you do again. Its one day if you stop at 3pm on a Monday from a day game and you have a night game st 7pm on Tuesday.
Five man rotation. 4 days rest minimum.
April 25th. Pitched
April 26. Day 1
April 27. Day 2
April 28. Day 3
April 29. Day 4
April 30th. Pitched.
I really don’t get what you’re on about. You’re completely wrong but you’re like trying to frame my statements into something bizarre.
Who’s saying anything about pitching twice within 4 calendar days. Just enjoy learning something. We’re all wrong sometimes. Stop being a bozo.
I was simply responding to your claim about MLB pitchers on 4 days rest then the wildly inaccurate claim that those 3 pitchers did so 25-30 percent of the time this year.
2/8 = 25%
3/8 = 37.5%
I’m only trying to be concise. I can’t draw you pictures.
I see that you’re perhaps doing it again. We’ve been talking about “seasons” and now you’re migrating it to “years”.
You were wrong. It’s written. There’s no escape. Embrace the pain!
Pitchers have pitched on 4 days rest this season multiple times and it’s happening in the regular season.
@Basebal21 said:
Starters dont start on 4 days rest unless it’s the playoffs.
This is not correct as much as you want it to be. Haha. Have a wonderful day of not learning.
There have been 323 starts on four days rest this year totaling 1,751 IP with a 3,.84 ERA
There have been 466 starts on five days rest this year totaling 2,526 IP with a 4.04 ERA
There have been 319 starts on 6+ days rest this year totaling 1,529 IP with a 4.25 ERA
Like 99% of other things in MLB, there is no mystery and the info is there if sought after. No need to guess.
Your typical Tue and Sun starts for the week are four days rest. Wed, Thur Fri, Sat are the rest days.
There were 11 starts on three days rest but I am guessing those were 'openers' with a total of 42 IP. Not going to bother to look for certain.
There have been 323 starts on four days rest this year totaling 1,751 IP with a 3,.84 ERA
There have been 466 starts on five days rest this year totaling 2,526 IP with a 4.04 ERA
There have been 319 starts on 6+ days rest this year totaling 1,529 IP with a 4.25 ERA
Like 99% of other things in MLB, there is no mystery and the info is there if sought after. No need to guess.
Your typical Tue and Sun starts for the week are four days rest. Wed, Thur Fri, Sat are the rest days.
There were 11 starts on three days rest but I am guessing those were 'openers' with a total of 42 IP. Not going to bother to look for certain.
Thanks for providing the data. I felt like we were going to be discussing "how wet is water" until the end of time.
@fergie23 said:
"Rest is also measured by when you stop pitching until you do again. Its one day if you stop at 3pm on a Monday from a day game and you have a night game st 7pm on Tuesday."
A day of rest for pitchers is a calendar day without pitching, not 24 hours after they last pitched. This definition of rest days is what is used in little league, high school baseball, and college baseball, and in MLB recommendations for youth/adolescent pitchers.
If a reliever pitches in a day game on Monday and then a night game on Tuesday, they pitched on consecutive days with no rest day in between.
Robb
Its 24 hours in terms of the psychological rest considerations and professional pitchers will tell you that. Theres plenty of interviews and videos out there talking about it if you dont want to believe me
Looking forward to watching Skenes pitch tomorrow. Hope he does well in his debut. While he won't help the team hit, directly, sometimes a rookie, even a pitcher, can be a catalyst for a team.
Tonight the Brewers have Gasser making his MLB debut against the Cards in Gm. 2.
"Its 24 hours in terms of the psychological rest considerations and professional pitchers will tell you that. Theres plenty of interviews and videos out there talking about it if you dont want to believe me"
It is interesting that psychologically, people that can never admit they are wrong like Basebal21 simply have very fragile egos.
"A pitcher who must rest for a day must rest for all games on that day"
MLB defines a rest day as a calendar day. You would think that would be the end of the story but as basebal has shown over and over and over, he just doubles, triples and quadruples down on being incorrect.
I'm sort of glad the Pirates called Skenes up, now we can dispense with all the BS about how good the guy is and everything that's gone along with that, From My Lofty Perch part of the timing was to let the weather warm somewhat while also getting a feel for what the team is capable of doing, how well his offensive support might be. Certainly they timed it to be at home, but it's surprising they'll do against one of the better NL teams. Looking at their home schedule, though, the Bucs are in for a rocky several weeks.
@Maywood said:
I'm sort of glad the Pirates called Skenes up, now we can dispense with all the BS about how good the guy is and everything that's gone along with that, From My Lofty Perch part of the timing was to let the weather warm somewhat while also getting a feel for what the team is capable of doing, how well his offensive support might be. Certainly they timed it to be at home, but it's surprising they'll do against one of the better NL teams. Looking at their home schedule, though, the Bucs are in for a rocky several weeks.
A true test by fire for this young man.
Some times you just have to draw a line on the forum and say… no. No more crazy talk.
@fergie23 said: "Its 24 hours in terms of the psychological rest considerations and professional pitchers will tell you that. Theres plenty of interviews and videos out there talking about it if you dont want to believe me"
It is interesting that psychologically, people that can never admit they are wrong like Basebal21 simply have very fragile egos.
"A pitcher who must rest for a day must rest for all games on that day"
MLB defines a rest day as a calendar day. You would think that would be the end of the story but as basebal has shown over and over and over, he just doubles, triples and quadruples down on being incorrect.
Robb
I guess the actual athletes and training staffs are all wrong This isnt little league. No pitcher "must rest" unless theyre suspended
Comments
There's an early season match-up this weekend that should be good, not remotely close to being a pre-view of anything, just the current two best teams in MLB facing off. The Cleveland Indians(18-7) vs. the Atlanta Braves(17-6) in Truist Park in Atlanta.
The Pirates in the meantime have slumped to 13-13 on their way to the basement.
Solid .500 team
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
I’m afraid to start a thread about the Royals. Let’s just say they’re off to a lot better start than last year. 🍺🍺
Which pitcher on the pirates would you rather have on your roster? Skenes or Jones?
The hitting with the young pirates is going to be hot and cold - like the Os. But that duo at the top of the rotation is going to suck for the rest of the NL Central for years.
I would take Jones. Wow. After he destroyed the brewers I had to watch his other starts. The game he threw against the Mets was one of the best pitching performances I’ve seen.
It shouldnt be an either or question.
The answer should be both if you want the best possible roster
It’s referred to as a hypothetical question. You may also know of it as a thought experiment if you’re into philosophy. It’s always your choice whether or not to answer but your dismissal is pointless.
The answer is both as it makes no sense to have brought up one and not the other. Somehow a 5 ERA in AAA gets Jones promoted but Skenes cant get a call up
IF one has to be picked Skenes. He has a higher upside and is more ready for the full season and is just getting messed up in the minors with those pitch counts
This is interesting. Inability to respond to a hypothetical question is a diagnostic marker.
Skenes better stuff, bigger frame, throws harder, was drafted higher, ranked ahead as a prospect, higher upside, would make more money for the franchise the list goes on and on
I’m just trying to compliment Pirates fans on the solid pitching. lol. Not everything is a fight to the death.
Statements of fact arent a fight
Skenes vs Jones; pick 1. This is not a question soliciting a fact. It is a question of opinion, preference, or arbitrary selection.
As to other items
Better stuff. A matter of opinion.
Bigger frame. A statement of fact.
Throws harder. A statement of fact.
Drafted higher. A statement of fact.
Ranked higher. A statement of fact.
Higher upside. A matter of opinion.
Better investment. A matter of opinion.
Your facts exist outside the parameters.
Throwing harder is factually better stuff which is also a factually higher upside
Would make more money with Livey Dunne as his current GF is also true like Taylor with Kelce whether people like it or not.
Its fact Jones threw fewer innings last year than Skenes did
Also fact Jones was bad in AAA
I dont dislike Jones for any reason between the two though Skenes should be the one in the pros and hes still not. Both should be but if it has to be one its Skenes
Everything is fine !!!
We are not in last place !!!
What you see is a mirage !!!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
This is fun.
There are many pitchers who throw and/or threw harder than Greg Maddux. Did they all have better stuff? Did they all have greater upside?
What might you have done when you’re in a corner surrounded by wet paint.
As to the making more money. You said for the franchise. Now you’re pivoting to personal income. Which is fine but it’s just another layer of distraction.
Maddux could throw harder he chose not to for more movement. Maddux didnt have the best stuff overall, but he had incredible command and an incredible understanding of pitch sequences and tunneling pitches to look the same until they werent. That combination made him elite.
Everything said about Skenes was a fact.
I never pivoted to personal income. Livvy Dunne showing up to a Pirates game would make the franchise far more money than a last place team that people dont really go to
I think we just understand "facts" differently.
Pirates answered this even quicker than most imagined.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
No problem, the other Pennsylvania team is in first place, with the best record in the NL. 😉
Skenes finally getting called up.
Would love to know how the Pirates were stretching him out when in 7 starts in AAA he was never allowed to even throw more than 75 pitches, multiple starts under 50 pitches and only two starts allowed to go over 70
They didn’t claim to be stretching him out from a pitch count perspective. They were consistent in saying that he was used to pitching weekly, so they wanted to get him used to pitching every 5th day. That’s different than, say, turning a reliever into a starter and teaching him to throw more pitches. He’ll probably still be on a low pitch count but at least they feel comfortable that he can take a regular turn vs. having to be leap frogged or subbed for.
Jim
MLB starters only make 1 start a week. The difference is 1-2 days from college which is an easy adjustment for a talent like him. Schedules arent set anymore where everyone has to throw every 5th day and teams use bullpen days as well. All they did was get him used to not throwing a lot of pitches in a game and having to do a lot more side work
They waited long enough that its going to be very hard for him to finish in the top 2 with how Imanaga and Yamamoto are pitching, not to mention Busch and some others witch prevents him from getting a full year of service.
I’m not sure why I even bother trying to have a discussion with you - it’s “your way or the highway” on every topic, but here goes…
5 days is less than 7 days. If he pitched every Sunday in college and has to pitch Sunday and Friday in the majors, isn’t that more than once a week and more frequently than in college? Everyone doesn’t HAVE to throw every 5 days but it sure as hell makes managing a rotation easier when your starters can do that. Wouldn’t it be better if you had 5 guys who could go every 5th day rather than having to always do something weird when someone’s turn comes around? Or when someone inevitably gets sick, hurt, or pitches like crap and taxes the bullpen - already having a starter who can’t go on schedule when those situations arise makes it that much harder.
I know it’s POSSIBLE to do what you’re saying, but it isn’t OPTIMAL. As I said earlier in the thread, who really cares about getting him in there? It’s not like their pitching is costing them Ws. They could have 5 1968 Bob Gibson’s and they’d only be a couple games better than they currently are.
Jim
During one of the games he pitched in they said that the pirates wanted him to get more efficient with his pitches too. At the time he was averaging 15 pitches an inning which is pretty solid so that didn’t make much sense.
Pirates should be just fine with their hitting to land 3rd in the NLC. Unfortunately the brewers will miss him if he’s pitching on Saturday. This time at least.
I’ll be the first to admit I’m no expert. Maybe bringing him up earlier gets the Pirates into 3rd, maybe bringing him up earlier gives him a chance at ROY. He’s too valuable for the future to take that chance in a meaningless year, so I’m fine with guys who know more than I do doing what they feel is best. Yeah, I know they manipulate service time - you ‘ll get no argument from me on that. Smarter people than me that have no stake in the Pirates think getting him used to 4 days rest is a great idea, so that’s good enough for me (before Basebal21 responds back with examples of people who didn’t agree with it… yeah, I know it wasn’t unanimous - nothing ever is). I just don’t see this being an egregious example compared to other examples with the Pirates of the past.
Jim
How does a pitcher benefit from throwing less than 70 pitches?
Jones isnt starting every 5 days. March 30th, April 5th, April 11th, April 16th, April 22, April 28th, May 4th. Keller half his starts were every 6 days as well. Imanaga every 6th and 7th day, Louis Castillo half his starts have been 6th day or more, Yamamoto 6 to 7 day schedule. All those guys lead the league in most starts. The 5th day thing isnt standard anymore with the extra off days in the schedule
Certainly agree that hes not going to be the difference of a playoff appearance or not, but doesnt mean that he shouldnt have been there for the best product
Points always just been that a players service time shouldnt be held down or manipulated just because a bad team doesnt think they can win it all. If anything just trade him to a team trying to win for a bunch of prospects. Whether he struggles or not hes one of the rare guys where having him in the minors this year was just a complete waste of time other than trying to deny him a year of service time
The 5 man rotation can mean a pitcher pitches on 4 days rest but as teams have off days it’s really “every 5th day” which refers to game days. Not all teams use a 5 man rotation all season as well.
“With Paul, we’ve been very intentional about how we’re building his volume coming into the season with a goal of really accomplishing two things,” said general manager Ben Cherington during his 93.7 The Fan radio show Sunday. “One is to try to get him to an appropriate total volume for 2024 coming off last year, when he pitched a full college season and then just a little bit of pro ball.
“We don’t want to go from zero to 100 right away. Paul’s so important to us long term, so we want to be really thoughtful about that.”
There’s really nothing more to say about it. I realize there’s no escaping the inevitable regurgitation of the same thought.
Starters dont start on 4 days rest unless its the playoffs.
Why do you say this?
Ignoring the fact that you artfully misunderstood what I said your claim is totally false.
Here’s a few examples.
Berrios. Twice
Allen. Twice
Bassit. Twice
Here’s what I did. I looked at pitchers ordered by games started, descending. And I looked at the first 3.
Any team that has a five man rotation is pretty likely to have this occur a few times in the season. A few teams use 6 or 7 man rotations but most are 5. Unless there’s a big chunk of consecutive days teams rarely shift from 5 to 6. These are just like “look ‘em up facts”.
Now go look at what percentage those are of total starts. Its minuscule
For those pitchers it was 25-35 percent. But it didn’t really matter. It’s not zero during regular season which was your bizarre assertion. It was also something that no one was saying happens - no one said pitchers pitch every 5th day, all the time.
I don’t think anyone believes that pitchers in a 5-man rotation pitch every 5th calendar each turn. If you think my wording is subjective on the matter I urge you to read it again.
Wasnt even close to that percentage. No math has 2 being 1/3rd of 30 starts. Berrios Allen and Bassit now go look up their career percentages and the league percentage.
Of their starts this season.
You said it was ZERO percent during the regular season. I said it lines up that way a few times a season for pitchers on a five man rotation.
There were like 35 pitchers who had made 8 starts. I bet most of those pitchers have 1 or 2 starts on 4 days rest. One of the guys I looked at of the 3 had 2 starts in a row on 4 days rest. So for them it would be 25-35 percent as of now.
Still not sure what angle you’re wiggling for here. It’s getting pretty far off topic.
You referenced less than 1 percent of starts overall. None of them started twice on 4 days
Berrios this year started on March 28th, then April 2nd, then April 8th, then the 14th, then the 20th, then the 25th, then the 30th, then May 7th
Bassitt started March 29th, then April 3rd, April 9th, April 15th, April 21st, April 26th, May 1st and May 7th.
Logan Allen started March 29th, April 3rd, April 9th, April 14th, April 20th, April 26th, May 2nd and May 7th
None of them started on 4 calendar days twice. Thats one of 8 starts that calendar days would consider 4 days. Not even close to 25 or 30 percent.
Rest is also measured by when you stop pitching until you do again. Its one day if you stop at 3pm on a Monday from a day game and you have a night game st 7pm on Tuesday.
Five man rotation. 4 days rest minimum.
April 25th. Pitched
April 26. Day 1
April 27. Day 2
April 28. Day 3
April 29. Day 4
April 30th. Pitched.
I really don’t get what you’re on about. You’re completely wrong but you’re like trying to frame my statements into something bizarre.
Who’s saying anything about pitching twice within 4 calendar days. Just enjoy learning something. We’re all wrong sometimes. Stop being a bozo.
I was simply responding to your claim about MLB pitchers on 4 days rest then the wildly inaccurate claim that those 3 pitchers did so 25-30 percent of the time this year.
"Rest is also measured by when you stop pitching until you do again. Its one day if you stop at 3pm on a Monday from a day game and you have a night game st 7pm on Tuesday."
A day of rest for pitchers is a calendar day without pitching, not 24 hours after they last pitched. This definition of rest days is what is used in little league, high school baseball, and college baseball, and in MLB recommendations for youth/adolescent pitchers.
If a reliever pitches in a day game on Monday and then a night game on Tuesday, they pitched on consecutive days with no rest day in between.
Robb
2/8 = 25%
3/8 = 37.5%
I’m only trying to be concise. I can’t draw you pictures.
I see that you’re perhaps doing it again. We’ve been talking about “seasons” and now you’re migrating it to “years”.
You were wrong. It’s written. There’s no escape. Embrace the pain!
Pitchers have pitched on 4 days rest this season multiple times and it’s happening in the regular season.
@Basebal21 said:
Starters dont start on 4 days rest unless it’s the playoffs.
This is not correct as much as you want it to be. Haha. Have a wonderful day of not learning.
@bgr @Basebal21
For 2024 thus far:
There have been 323 starts on four days rest this year totaling 1,751 IP with a 3,.84 ERA
There have been 466 starts on five days rest this year totaling 2,526 IP with a 4.04 ERA
There have been 319 starts on 6+ days rest this year totaling 1,529 IP with a 4.25 ERA
Like 99% of other things in MLB, there is no mystery and the info is there if sought after. No need to guess.
Your typical Tue and Sun starts for the week are four days rest. Wed, Thur Fri, Sat are the rest days.
There were 11 starts on three days rest but I am guessing those were 'openers' with a total of 42 IP. Not going to bother to look for certain.
Thanks for providing the data. I felt like we were going to be discussing "how wet is water" until the end of time.
Its 24 hours in terms of the psychological rest considerations and professional pitchers will tell you that. Theres plenty of interviews and videos out there talking about it if you dont want to believe me
Looking forward to watching Skenes pitch tomorrow. Hope he does well in his debut. While he won't help the team hit, directly, sometimes a rookie, even a pitcher, can be a catalyst for a team.
Tonight the Brewers have Gasser making his MLB debut against the Cards in Gm. 2.
"Its 24 hours in terms of the psychological rest considerations and professional pitchers will tell you that. Theres plenty of interviews and videos out there talking about it if you dont want to believe me"
It is interesting that psychologically, people that can never admit they are wrong like Basebal21 simply have very fragile egos.
https://img.mlbstatic.com/opprops-images/image/upload/opprops/q7qy1t7gzmugh0dtgrju.pdf
"A pitcher who must rest for a day must rest for all games on that day"
MLB defines a rest day as a calendar day. You would think that would be the end of the story but as basebal has shown over and over and over, he just doubles, triples and quadruples down on being incorrect.
Robb
I'm sort of glad the Pirates called Skenes up, now we can dispense with all the BS about how good the guy is and everything that's gone along with that, From My Lofty Perch part of the timing was to let the weather warm somewhat while also getting a feel for what the team is capable of doing, how well his offensive support might be. Certainly they timed it to be at home, but it's surprising they'll do against one of the better NL teams. Looking at their home schedule, though, the Bucs are in for a rocky several weeks.
A true test by fire for this young man.
Some times you just have to draw a line on the forum and say… no. No more crazy talk.
Cubs and then Brewers.
I guess the actual athletes and training staffs are all wrong This isnt little league. No pitcher "must rest" unless theyre suspended
Been a while since I’ve watched anything like this 5th inning on the river.