Most of us can dislike a coin, but still acknowledge that it’s accurately graded.

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MFeld
MFeld Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Way back in the Middle Ages ;) , prior to becoming a grader for NGC…
When I was a dealer and viewed coins, if I didn’t like them, I just moved on to the next one, without having to articulate why I didn’t like them or assign a grade to them. The process was quick and easy.
But when I got to NGC, I no longer had the option to just pass and move on to the next coin. I had to grade them, even if I didn’t like them. Bummer!
And I quickly learned that just because I didn’t like a coin, didn’t mean it was over-graded. That can be a difficult lesson for many numismatists.
Fast forward to post-NGC grading days…I see lots of coins that I don’t like and when assessing them for clients, I do need to explain my reasons. But I still remind myself that a coin can be accurately graded, even if something about it causes me to dislike it. It can be a mark in the wrong place, toning I don't like, muted luster on a high grade example, ho-hum eye appeal - all sorts of reasons.

Post such a coin, if you please.

Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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Comments

  • Maywood
    Maywood Posts: 4,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I think if a coin can be bumped up in grade due to positive eye appeal then it can be bumped down in grade for negative eye appeal.

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin

  • Mr_Spud
    Mr_Spud Posts: 7,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    You mean like this one? I bought it heavily discounted for the negative eye appeal

    Mr_Spud

  • Fraz
    Fraz Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Mr_Spud said:
    You mean like this one? I bought it heavily discounted for the negative eye appeal

    I would buy that heavily discounted.

  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Mr_Spud said:
    You mean like this one? I bought it heavily discounted for the negative eye appeal

    That depends on whether 1) you dislike it, but 2) you still think it's accurately graded.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Fraz
    Fraz Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2024 12:20PM
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    @MFeld said:

    That depends on whether 1) you dislike it, but 2) you still think it's accurately graded.

    Yeah, that is the reverse of how I think about the dollar that I posted.

  • Pnies20
    Pnies20 Posts: 2,605 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Definitely agree. I feel like I have several examples but they are escaping me at the moment

    BHNC #248 … 140 and counting.

  • MrEureka
    MrEureka Posts: 24,782 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I like all coins. Just some more than others.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • erwindoc
    erwindoc Posts: 5,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    This coin is in my collection. The spot is there but up close it is toning, not some flying spittle that landed in an unfortunate location but my eyes go right to it.

  • FrankH
    FrankH Posts: 982 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    And they always will.. :s

  • Walkerguy21D
    Walkerguy21D Posts: 12,166 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I saw several at FUN. Two were the same AU58 PCGS grade early walker that I really needed for my set. One CAC’d, one not. Both were just too fugly, with splotchy toning, muted luster, etc. I didn’t even try to talk myself into either of them.
    Another was a CACd AU55 middle date large cent. Hazy, dull surfaces with a weak strike. Original, sure. Technical 55 details, yep. Eye appeal, no bueno….

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  • coinbuf
    coinbuf Posts: 12,577 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2024 10:24AM
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    I think this one falls into your line of thinking @MFeld bought at the time to fill both a hole in the Lincoln set and for the old holder. While the grade is technically correct, the eye appeal is not there. I would not go so far as to say I dislike the coin, but I would like a less dark example someday.

    The close up photo was taken by Mark Goodman and gives a good look at the hammered strike but over plays the color darkness while my slab photo gives a better in hand representation. Some may remember the auction tag on the rev of the slab.



    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2024 11:24AM
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    @coinbuf said:
    I think this one falls into your line of thinking @MFeld bought at the time to fill both a hole in the Lincoln set and for the old holder. While the grade is technically correct, the eye appeal is not there. I would not go so far as to say I dislike the coin, but I would like a less dark example someday.

    The close up photo was taken by Mark Goodman and gives a good look at the hammered strike but over plays the color darkness while my slab photo gives a better in hand representation. Some may remember the auction tag on the rev of the slab.



    Yes, @coinbuf, that's the type of coin I was speaking of.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Given the way it looks now, that 1922-D cent does not have enough red to be R&B and too many spots to be an MS-64. It may have looked better when it went into that slab more than 25 years ago.

    If it looked like that then, I think it was over graded. Yes, there are some old green label holder pieces that were over graded in my opinion.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • conrad99
    conrad99 Posts: 375 ✭✭✭
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    If I don't like a slabbed coin, I immediately write a polite but firm letter to the TPG explaining where they went wrong and demanding a reconsideration. Even if it's not my coin! Yes, I stay busy, why do you ask.

  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2024 11:24AM
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    Here's one that is the right grade, but not the most pleasing. This 1796 half dime is an Old Green Label EF-45. It's got the sharpness of something better, but the fields are too bright from a cleaning or a dip. It's not hairlined.


    I have been a very lucky collector through the years. I have ended up with some great coins at fair prices. The one big exception has been the 1796 half dimes. I never had the right amount of money when a good one was available, and always seemed to buy the wrong one. I have all three of the pieces listed in the Red Book, and none of them pleases me completely.

    Here are some larger pictures.


    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • relicsncoins
    relicsncoins Posts: 8,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm not sure why I even sent this coin in. I thought it might come back higher. I think it's accurately graded at 63, but the toning is dark and palm print is distracting.

    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
  • conrad99
    conrad99 Posts: 375 ✭✭✭
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    Yeah that's one of the most attractive Barber quarters I've ever seen.

  • mirabela
    mirabela Posts: 5,199 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'll play, LOL

    mirabela
  • relicsncoins
    relicsncoins Posts: 8,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @mirabela said:
    I'll play, LOL

    What's the grade? Need that bit of info to determine if it's properly graded. AU55 would be my guess.

    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @pointfivezero said:
    No comment necessary but I'll leave one anyway. I can't even see the bell lines:

    Tim

    Have you seen the coin in hand? The FBL on a half or FB on a dime aren’t always apparent in images.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Crepidodera
    Crepidodera Posts: 457 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Here's a coin from my collection that's accurately graded but kind of ugly. PCGS XF40 CAC

  • pointfivezero
    pointfivezero Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @MFeld said:

    @pointfivezero said:
    No comment necessary but I'll leave one anyway. I can't even see the bell lines:

    Tim

    Have you seen the coin in hand? The FBL on a half or FB on a dime aren’t always apparent in images.

    Hi Mark,

    Yes, I am the proud owner of this coin.

    Tim

  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @pointfivezero said:

    @MFeld said:

    @pointfivezero said:
    No comment necessary but I'll leave one anyway. I can't even see the bell lines:

    Tim

    Have you seen the coin in hand? The FBL on a half or FB on a dime aren’t always apparent in images.

    Hi Mark,

    Yes, I am the proud owner of this coin.

    Tim

    Thanks, Tim. In that case, it’s not a coin that you think is accurately graded, but which you don’’t like.😉

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • ARCO
    ARCO Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Interesting. I have never thought of it in those terms. If a coin is ugly/fugly/crusty, I guess I just don't care what grade it is, I don't want it.

  • Meltdown
    Meltdown Posts: 9,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Half of this one might be considered ugly... it is graded correctly as a 63.


  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2024 7:47AM
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    This 1839-D quarter eagle is graded MS-60. It's more like a Choice AU, but it is a tough coin. Heritage has an MS-62 graded one in their retail inventory, but it's got a scratch on Ms. Liberty's mouth that would bother me, and it's more than twice the price of this one.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • DisneyFan
    DisneyFan Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @MFeld said:

    Fast forward to post-NGC grading days…I see lots of coins that I don’t like and when assessing them for clients, I do need to explain my reasons. But I still remind myself that a coin can be accurately graded, even if something about it causes me to dislike it. It can be a mark in the wrong place, toning I don't like, muted luster on a high grade example, ho-hum eye appeal - all sorts of reasons.

    Post such a coin, if you please.

    I could post a lot of correctly graded MS coins I don't like that have been for sale. BUT, I don't want to insult the sellers/buyers.

  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @DisneyFan said:

    @MFeld said:

    Fast forward to post-NGC grading days…I see lots of coins that I don’t like and when assessing them for clients, I do need to explain my reasons. But I still remind myself that a coin can be accurately graded, even if something about it causes me to dislike it. It can be a mark in the wrong place, toning I don't like, muted luster on a high grade example, ho-hum eye appeal - all sorts of reasons.

    Post such a coin, if you please.

    I could post a lot of correctly graded MS coins I don't like that have been for sale. BUT, I don't want to insult the sellers/buyers.

    Fair point. I was thinking in terms of coins that weren’t currently available for sale and should have mentioned that. Thank you.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Walkerfan
    Walkerfan Posts: 10,392 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2024 2:51PM
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    @erwindoc I know exactly what you mean and I’m reminded of the Newman 1935 S Walker. A technical gem, but a hard pass for me due to the spot (though, I may have been able to live with the fingerprint). This Coin has since been crossed into PCGS plastic.



    Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • spyglassdesign
    spyglassdesign Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Interesting. To add, each person's like and dislike is different as well, as such the price a coin can get on any given day just depends on who you can get their eyeballs on it. One person may like it, another may dislike it, but if you find the one person who loves it, you can get a better price.

    https://www.the4thcoin.com
    https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin

  • DisneyFan
    DisneyFan Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm really uncomfortable with high grade Hawaiians that are yellow toned.

  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @DisneyFan said:
    I'm really uncomfortable with high grade Hawaiians that are yellow toned.

    Why? A good number of them have toned that way and I don’t recall any skepticism regarding their originality.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • DisneyFan
    DisneyFan Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @MFeld said:

    @DisneyFan said:
    I'm really uncomfortable with high grade Hawaiians that are yellow toned.

    Why? A good number of them have toned that way and I don’t recall any skepticism regarding their originality.

    I know. I see them all the time and with CACs. I think there was a Stacks auction 20 years ago solely devoted to them. But I don't like them - sorry. Mine is Blast White. Where is Rickco when I need him?

  • Elcontador
    Elcontador Posts: 7,743 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @MFeld said:
    Way back in the Middle Ages ;) , prior to becoming a grader for NGC…
    When I was a dealer and viewed coins, if I didn’t like them, I just moved on to the next one, without having to articulate why I didn’t like them or assign a grade to them. The process was quick and easy.
    But when I got to NGC, I no longer had the option to just pass and move on to the next coin. I had to grade them, even if I didn’t like them. Bummer!
    And I quickly learned that just because I didn’t like a coin, didn’t mean it was over-graded. That can be a difficult lesson for many numismatists.
    Fast forward to post-NGC grading days…I see lots of coins that I don’t like and when assessing them for clients, I do need to explain my reasons. But I still remind myself that a coin can be accurately graded, even if something about it causes me to dislike it. It can be a mark in the wrong place, toning I don't like, muted luster on a high grade example, ho-hum eye appeal - all sorts of reasons.

    Post such a coin, if you please.

    Mark, that's true. But an issue is a coin may have been properly graded when it was first slabbed, but standards had changed since then. Maybe when coin encapsulation started, a copper that was at least 5% RD was considered to be RB. But that hasn't been the case for quite some time. Likewise re pre 1815 copper and other coinage that has some "minor issues." Standards change, but unless a coin is sent in and encapsulated a second (or third) time, coin's hopefully don't (hopefully re not developing PVC spots, etc).

    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
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  • Cougar1978
    Cougar1978 Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2024 9:59PM
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    Funny

    If I turn rhumbs down on a coin I don’t have to acknowledge anything, especially that trash.

    Just put zero on the estate offer Calc schedule for them? Really feel sorry for the owners.

    Is this thread for humor? LMAO at those coins /question. Somebody kept them too long.

    The 35-s WLH coin is such a dog that the sticker means nothing. A farce. Trying call it a C an absurdity.

    If this is a show case of dog / gone bad in holder coins good job. As far grading If a house burned down would it matter what the realtor rated the house before the fire?

    Sure - offer them around bourse at bluesheet see if any takers. The grade on them so what - send them to the conservation dept. These examples where have sticker an absurdity. Surely they not crud out then at sticker point in time.

    If coin has gone bad in holder then it may have been properly graded at one time but now grade is effectively defunct. So if some stupido wanted argue that it’s still that grade tell him shove off go shop it around bourse.

    Investor
  • Barberian
    Barberian Posts: 4,643 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Crepidodera said:
    Here's a coin from my collection that's accurately graded but kind of ugly. PCGS XF40 CAC

    Here's another. The Trueview accentuates the light scratches and turn the coin ugly orange. It's so ugly I haven't shown it until now, even though it graded XF45. The color is over juiced.

    More like the actual coin in-hand. I just got it back from PCGS and didn't even take a look at it before stashing it in the SDB.

  • BAJJERFAN
    BAJJERFAN Posts: 31,666 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm not sure that assigned grade has all that much to with liking or disliking a coin. That 68+ 1883 would have the same turnoff factor if it was in a 64 holder. That caca spot. You can't grade the ugliness out of it.

    BTW Mark, is NGC still grading to the same standards that they told you to grade to?

    theknowitalltroll;
  • Cougar1978
    Cougar1978 Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2024 7:14PM
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    Well one does not really know what the coin looked like at time of grading let alone when it got the sticker or what it exposed to ruining it. Saw an air crash video on a TWA flight. Mechs inspected and passed it before takeoff but out over the ocean front part fell off it beyond cockpit plane fell down 28,000 ft to the sea in pieces, no survivors.

    Worrying about the assigned grade / sticker a futility. Perhaps a lesson on holding time, storage conditions.

    Investor
  • Pizzaman
    Pizzaman Posts: 305 ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2024 8:00PM
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    @MFeld said:
    Post such a coin, if you please.

    Can I comment on your style, instead? You're not market grading, you're technical grading. Market grading takes into consideration eye appeal. The way the TPGs evaluate that isn't by their personal preferences but by their evaluation of the market. If they're any good, like is our gracious host, they've got their thumb on it, day-to-day. They know what their market goes for, and what it doesn't. From the PCGS lingo on market grading, it's "[a] numerical grade that matches the grade at which a particular coin generally is traded in the marketplace. The grading standard used by PCGS." That's not to say they're ignoring technical grading. In my experience, over the years, with them, when it's good toning, they'll bump the grade, and when it's not so good, they'll give it the technical without regard to the toning. That's just my experience. Reasonable minds may differ. No need for nobody to get snooty about nothing.

  • MrEureka
    MrEureka Posts: 24,782 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Pizzaman said:

    From the PCGS lingo on market grading, it's "[a] numerical grade that matches the grade at which a particular coin generally is traded in the marketplace. The grading standard used by PCGS."

    Sounds to me like the tail thinks it's wagging the dog.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

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