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A True Test To See If CACG Is As Strict As Perceived

WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 719 ✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

The best way to see if CACG is as conservative in their grading as people are perceiving. Take a sample of at least 100 PCGS/CAC coins. Of course preferably 500 or so. Crack them out and resubmitt them to CACG raw for regrading. For test purposes cheaper coins can be used to minimize submitter risk.

I think at least 85-90% would need to attain at least the same grade or better. If a higher percentage of coins grade LOWER than one can infer that CACG is indeed using a stricter set of standards than even CAC. I am allowing for a 10-15% variance from 100% to account for chance and the tastes of the different sets of graders from each service. Care to agree or disagree?

«1345

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    IkesTIkesT Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:
    The best way to see if CACG is as conservative in their grading as people are perceiving. Take a sample of at least 100 PCGS/CAC coins. Of course preferably 500 or so. Crack them out and resubmitt them to CACG raw for regrading. For test purposes cheaper coins can be used to minimize submitter risk.

    No way you'd ever amass that number - you'd get cold feet and return them before they ever got to CACG.

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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Disagree- Grading is subjective and the same coin submitted multiple times will likely produce different results- even from the same TPG Co. A grade- regardless of which company- is merely an opinion at that moment the coin is graded. And graders and collectors can change their minds and often do- So being strict or conservative really cannot measured as it is likely within the margin of subjectivity can vary.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    habaracahabaraca Posts: 1,965 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    McDonald's now is offering juicier double cheese burgers with fluffier and softer buns.
    I haven't tried them yet.
    If 500 consumers try them and compare them to the older style of cheeseburgers I wonder if the consensus is they're now better?

    https://www.allrecipes.com/mcdonalds-making-burgers-bigger-and-better-8416918

    I would imagine the success rate would match that of the OP's question, but I am not sure.

    so if 100 people replied to this thread what percentage will be SNIPPY????

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,074 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    Disagree- Grading is subjective and the same coin submitted multiple times will likely produce different results- even from the same TPG Co. A grade- regardless of which company- is merely an opinion at that moment the coin is graded. And graders and collectors can change their minds and often do- So being strict or conservative really cannot measured as it is likely within the margin of subjectivity can vary.

    That would be included in the variance of the 500 coins. For a large sample size, consistently higher or lower grades cannot be pure chance. [If such a trend existed. ]

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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,470 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another CAC thread - reminded me of Angle, On And On.

    Chorus:

    So it goes on and on and on
    Never saying how I feel
    It goes on and on and on
    Why won't I heal??
    Said it goes on and on and on
    Like a violent summer rain
    It goes on and on and on
    Can you feel my pain??

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkLeQxN9JJM

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

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    BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    McDonald's now is offering juicier double cheese burgers with fluffier and softer buns.
    I haven't tried them yet.
    If 500 consumers try them and compare them to the older style of cheeseburgers I wonder if the consensus is they're now better?

    That's a specious comparison since you are comparing the new item to your memory of the old one.

    With coins, you have the written record in the form of the old slab label.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,538 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd just like my food served hot at Micky D's

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,074 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    Were the originals NGC, PCGS, both?

  • Options
    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Goes both ways, I've seen some brutally overgraded coins by CACG. Mostly undergraded or undeserving details grades. Inconsistency is what I see.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • Options
    WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 719 ✭✭✭✭

    @jacrispies said:
    Goes both ways, I've seen some brutally overgraded coins by CACG. Mostly undergraded or undeserving details grades. Inconsistency is what I see.

    Can you please post a few that you claim are brutally overgraded

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    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,872 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    Were the originals NGC, PCGS, both?

    Wasn’t specified.

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

  • Options
    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:

    @jacrispies said:
    Goes both ways, I've seen some brutally overgraded coins by CACG. Mostly undergraded or undeserving details grades. Inconsistency is what I see.

    Can you please post a few that you claim are brutally overgraded

    The only one I have specific record of is a superb+ proof walker that has a clear wipe in the right obverse field. Should be a 63 max, if straight graded.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • Options
    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,465 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    Were the originals NGC, PCGS, both?

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    Were the originals NGC, PCGS, both?

    That tells you something. It’s a statistical improbability that 15 coin were overgraded to such a large extent. 66 to 64+!!! Possible but unlikely. There is something wrong here

    Agree. I would have to see pic of the coins in their original slabs and in their CACG slabs before I would lend any credence to this study.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Options
    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @Walkerlover said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    Were the originals NGC, PCGS, both?

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    Were the originals NGC, PCGS, both?

    That tells you something. It’s a statistical improbability that 15 coin were overgraded to such a large extent. 66 to 64+!!! Possible but unlikely. There is something wrong here

    Agree. I would have to see pic of the coins in their original slabs and in their CACG slabs before I would lend any credence to this study.

    I personally would not discredit the study simply because the data appears a little unusual. I believe the original submitter would have no reason to spread misinformation unless there was some seriously deep coin politics involved.

    Recently saw a common 1885-CC as a solid 64 that was CACG details wiped because there were roller lines. Seen some crazy things thus far.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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    gtstanggtstang Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You could always send the CACG coins thought to be undergraded to CMQ for a sticker.

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    DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2024 4:12PM

    @Walkerlover said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    Were the originals NGC, PCGS, both?

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    Were the originals NGC, PCGS, both?

    That tells you something. It’s a statistical improbability that 15 coin were overgraded to such a large extent. 66 to 64+!!! Possible but unlikely. There is something wrong here

    Not necessarily, but I’d really love to know what they were. If one sent in a bunch of wholesale shrapnel like that other video I would not be surprised. I also wondered if it was 20 Wells Fargo saints in 66.

    Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR

  • Options
    17751775 Posts: 75 ✭✭✭

    I sent a 1911 $10 Indian to CACG ' came back AU58; Cracked it out ( which by the way is extremely difficult)sent to PCGS came back MS63; no-one had graded it raw ,less than 63. Am now going to send it to CAC Sticker (probably will come back with a Green Sticker!!

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    SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pretty expensive test.

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    kruegerkrueger Posts: 807 ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2024 5:20PM

    Each TPG service has different standards. Hello-- And different graders/ opinions apply those.
    Why do we think they are the same?
    And provide the same results?

    Your grading ability and tastes will determine which you prefer.
    The Marketplace will determine who the collectors prefer as a whole.
    Arbitrage / crackout will be the game for awhile to those who can see a profit and have the means and the time.
    And can manage the risks. Same games as before. On and on it goes.
    Maybe some day all TPG's will have the same standards and all graders will require the same accepted training and certification.
    Am I dreaming?
    The TPG's are each a separate business trying to make a profit providing a competitive product and grow their market share and perseptions
    In the marketplace.

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    LuxorLuxor Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭✭

    <<< Can you please post a few that you claim are brutally overgraded >>>

    Here's one in a non legacy CACG holder. Does this look like a strictly graded MS65 coin to anyone?

    Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.

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    RLSnapperRLSnapper Posts: 526 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld perhaps I was a bit over the top....but you don't dispute the business model that I have laid out for CACG seems to be playing out. Scarlet "L"....random serial numbers are factual and done so for a reason. Only JA knows the true reason....seems his early effort to make a market in details coins would have fit nicely into his business model of strict grading....CACG details coins would have been marketable to registry players according to his CACG point system....brilliant idea but the blowback ruined that market. I have nothing but admiration for JA the business man......

  • Options
    TypekatTypekat Posts: 162 ✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    One question: were any of those MS66s CAC stickered?
    If not, it only proved that coins not of CAC quality were also not of CACG quality

    30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!

  • Options
    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,063 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RLSnapper said:
    @MFeld perhaps I was a bit over the top....but you don't dispute the business model that I have laid out for CACG seems to be playing out. Scarlet "L"....random serial numbers are factual and done so for a reason. Only JA knows the true reason....seems his early effort to make a market in details coins would have fit nicely into his business model of strict grading....CACG details coins would have been marketable to registry players according to his CACG point system....brilliant idea but the blowback ruined that market. I have nothing but admiration for JA the business man......

    Yes, perhaps you were a bit over the top. 😉

    As far as I know, NGC and PCGS both use random serial numbers, too.

    I don’t think of “L” coins as loose and am not convinced that CACG will be stricter than CAC has been. Time will tell on that.

    Keep in mind that many (former PCGS and NGC) coins being graded noticeably lower by CACG might very well have been seen by CAC previously and failed to sticker. So CAC and CACG could be seeing the coins the same way, with the only difference being a CAC reject, then vs. a lower CACG assigned grade, now.

    Lastly, if CACG is unreasonably strict, they won’t get sufficient business for anyone to be able to ride off into the sunset.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    jonrunsjonruns Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A submission of 200 would be enough to be statistically significant.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,063 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Typekat said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    At CACs forums, there was a group of 20 MS66 coins submitted to CACG.

    Here was the grade distribution:
    MS66:0
    MS65+:0
    MS65:3
    MS64+:15
    MS64:1
    Details:1

    I’d say they’re pretty tough.

    One question: were any of those MS66s CAC stickered?
    If not, it only proved that coins not of CAC quality were also not of CACG quality

    Perhaps the coins hadn’t been submitted to CAC. So it would need to be known that they had been to CAC and failed to sticker, not just that they weren’t stickered.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ‘’Each TPG service has different standards. Hello-- And different graders/ opinions apply those.’’

    Not necessarily- the same “hired gun” (world class) graders can work for multiple grading services over the years and grade the very same coins differently for each company as they are told to grade them by “their master” at the time.

    Wondercoin.

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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    Jcc1876Jcc1876 Posts: 7 ✭

    Here's my question. Has anyone submitted to CACG a previously CAC stickered coin and had it come back at a lower grade or with a "Details" or "Cleaned" grade? To me that's a good test of how legit CACG really is. Better yet, has anyone tried to submit a gold CAC stickered coin to CACG and had it come back at the same grade or lower?

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    Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:
    The best way to see if CACG is as conservative in their grading as people are perceiving. Take a sample of at least 100 PCGS/CAC coins. Of course preferably 500 or so. Crack them out and resubmitt them to CACG raw for regrading. For test purposes cheaper coins can be used to minimize submitter risk.

    I think at least 85-90% would need to attain at least the same grade or better. If a higher percentage of coins grade LOWER than one can infer that CACG is indeed using a stricter set of standards than even CAC. I am allowing for a 10-15% variance from 100% to account for chance and the tastes of the different sets of graders from each service. Care to agree or disagree?

    Great idea! Any TPGS would appreciate the revenue.

  • Options
    Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @Jcc1876 said:
    Here's my question. Has anyone submitted to CACG a previously CAC stickered coin and had it come back at a lower grade or with a "Details" or "Cleaned" grade? To me that's a good test of how legit CACG really is. Better yet, has anyone tried to submit a gold CAC stickered coin to CACG and had it come back at the same grade or lower?

    You must be a YN. EVERYONE with a little experience buying coins KNOWS that some coins are over graded, under graded, and correctly graded. The grades of a particular coin can and do change at the same grading service when sent in raw. TPGS are not perfect. If the graders miss a patch of hairlines the first go around and the grade gets lowered on the second that should please me BECAUSE NOW THAT COIN IS MORE CORRECTLY GRADED!!! Does that make sense to you?

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    spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,488 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:

    That tells you something. It’s a statistical improbability that 15 coin were overgraded to such a large extent. 66 to 64+!!! Possible but unlikely. There is something wrong here

    Yup, what us wrong is grade inflation..............


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    spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,488 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jonruns said:
    A submission of 200 would be enough to be statistically significant.

    Er, where does this magical number come from? Statistical theory? Do you have refs to back it up or your personal preference? If the former, please provide links to the paper(s)..................


    Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
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    TypekatTypekat Posts: 162 ✭✭✭

    Bold
    BOLD ALL CAPS

    I’m new around here, do those mean ‘sarcasm’ or ‘raging belief?’

    30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!

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    alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Manifest_Destiny said:
    Thanks, I just bought 100 PCGS/CAC coins!

    Congratulations on your purchase of 100 properly graded and verified by a third party to confirm quality :)

    Mike
    My Indians
    Danco Set

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    gtstanggtstang Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I guess you can ponder this. What exactly do they mean by "unparalleled level of expertise "?
    If it means they will grade at a stricter level than pcgs or ngc then of course cacg will be undergraded compared to the "other" grading standards.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,074 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:

    @jonruns said:
    A submission of 200 would be enough to be statistically significant.

    Er, where does this magical number come from? Statistical theory? Do you have refs to back it up or your personal preference? If the former, please provide links to the paper(s)..................

    https://www.qualtrics.com/experience-management/research/margin-of-error/#:~:text=How sample size affects margin,of error%2C and vice versa.

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    BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Smudge said:
    Pretty expensive test.

    Maybe that's the whole idea. Skim off the cream of people willing to pay crazy money in grading fees. Then do a rug pull and fold up shop.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ** As such, both of these are fairly predictable. CACG appears to be entirely and completely random.**

    I wonder how they ensure they don’t get duplicate serial numbers? Even if the probability is low, it could still happen. I suppose they could have software that would flag if a generated random series of numbers had been used previously.

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