I would not be happy getting lower grade numbers / details on a submission to them (CACG). At this point from posts here and half dozen paid thru nose for feel they are really tough, plus expensive. Pass - Good luck in getting all the money for them.
@Cougar1978 said:
I would not be happy getting lower grade numbers / details on a submission to them (CACG). At this point from posts here and half dozen paid thru nose for feel they are really tough, plus expensive. Pass - Good luck in getting all the money for them.
Have you checked to see what their fees are compared to those of the other grading companies? I'll answer for you - No.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
One potential issue with throwing all the previously market acceptable coins into details holders is that the range of quality within CACG details holders will vary widely from harshly cleaned to (previously) market acceptable.
This will lead to highly variable pricing for CACG details labeled coins which may lead to confusion for the average collector.
Imagine a scenario where a collector walks up to a dealer with a harshly cleaned coin and is citing prices of CACG details - cleaned holdered comps. That’s going to be a hard conversation.
@Project Numismatics said:
One potential issue with throwing all the previously market acceptable coins into details holders is that the range of quality within CACG details holders will vary widely from harshly cleaned to (previously) market acceptable.
This will lead to highly variable pricing for CACG details labeled coins which may lead to confusion for the average collector.
Imagine a scenario where a collector walks up to a dealer with a harshly cleaned coin and is citing prices of CACG details - cleaned holdered comps. That’s going to be a hard conversation.
It's almost like judging surfaces and defining a coin strictly as cleaned/original is a line that is super tough, and even ambiguous to define I agree that this would be an issue going forward
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
@Project Numismatics said:
One potential issue with throwing all the previously market acceptable coins into details holders is that the range of quality within CACG details holders will vary widely from harshly cleaned to (previously) market acceptable.
This will lead to highly variable pricing for CACG details labeled coins which may lead to confusion for the average collector.
Imagine a scenario where a collector walks up to a dealer with a harshly cleaned coin and is citing prices of CACG details - cleaned holdered comps. That’s going to be a hard conversation.
The same scenario could already be occurring with NGC and PCGS details-cleaned (or harshly cleaned) coins. Even within each details-grade, there can be very large difference sin value. So I don't think the CACG details-grade coins will be a whole lot different.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How much more value does CACG really bring to the table versus PCGS/CAC bean? Not any more in my opinion.
I have seen the outlandish prices folks are asking currently for CACG. Some probably just paid to get early examples. Only the buyer can say for sure.
What will CACG's move be if they do not bring in expected revenue? Changes will need to be made, just as things always have changed in this industry to keep revenue flowing.
They probably have at least 5-6 mil. invested just in the move to Virginia.
@Project Numismatics said:
One potential issue with throwing all the previously market acceptable coins into details holders is that the range of quality within CACG details holders will vary widely from harshly cleaned to (previously) market acceptable.
This will lead to highly variable pricing for CACG details labeled coins which may lead to confusion for the average collector.
Imagine a scenario where a collector walks up to a dealer with a harshly cleaned coin and is citing prices of CACG details - cleaned holdered comps. That’s going to be a hard conversation.
The same scenario could already be occurring with NGC and PCGS details-cleaned (or harshly cleaned) coins. Even within each details-grade, there can be very large difference sin value. So I don't think the CACG details-grade coins will be a whole lot different.
I think the challenge is that CACG is basically redefining market acceptable and that’s going to take a lot of education on the collector side. That burden will likely fall mostly on your average dealer.
CAC stickers offered the market a three tier structure - 1) details 2) market acceptable (P/N straight graded) and 3) beaned (original and properly graded). Sorting that middle tier will lead to more variability.
@Project Numismatics said:
One potential issue with throwing all the previously market acceptable coins into details holders is that the range of quality within CACG details holders will vary widely from harshly cleaned to (previously) market acceptable.
This will lead to highly variable pricing for CACG details labeled coins which may lead to confusion for the average collector.
Imagine a scenario where a collector walks up to a dealer with a harshly cleaned coin and is citing prices of CACG details - cleaned holdered comps. That’s going to be a hard conversation.
The same scenario could already be occurring with NGC and PCGS details-cleaned (or harshly cleaned) coins. Even within each details-grade, there can be very large difference sin value. So I don't think the CACG details-grade coins will be a whole lot different.
Even worse, the same issue would be happening NOW with straight graded coins that could (should?) be in details holder.
@gtstang said:
How much more value does CACG really bring to the table versus PCGS/CAC bean? Not any more in my opinion.
I have seen the outlandish prices folks are asking currently for CACG. Some probably just paid to get early examples. Only the buyer can say for sure.
What will CACG's move be if they do not bring in expected revenue? Changes will need to be made, just as things always have changed in this industry to keep revenue flowing.
They probably have at least 5-6 mil. invested just in the move to Virginia.
You do learn alot about CAC and CACG and John Albanese by reading his 2009 and 2022 CoinWeek interviews....plus the CACForum posts are informative.
Those of you who speak to JA regularly, it's probably Old News but for those of us who have never met him and probably won't be able to sit down with him, his interviews and posts offer a window into his grading acumen and thinking.
@Project Numismatics said:
One potential issue with throwing all the previously market acceptable coins into details holders is that the range of quality within CACG details holders will vary widely from harshly cleaned to (previously) market acceptable.
This will lead to highly variable pricing for CACG details labeled coins which may lead to confusion for the average collector.
Imagine a scenario where a collector walks up to a dealer with a harshly cleaned coin and is citing prices of CACG details - cleaned holdered comps. That’s going to be a hard conversation.
It's almost like judging surfaces and defining a coin strictly as cleaned/original is a line that is super tough, and even ambiguous to define I agree that this would be an issue going forward
NOT super tough and not tough AT ALL. It comes from experience, good eyesight, and proper examination techniques. I'll guarantee that any, long-time, TPGS grader, most major dealers, and many smaller dealers can easily detect originality. My blind grandmother can too. The problem is that most collectors do not have the means to study original coins closely! Once you learn what an original surface looks like, in most cases, you'll be able to tell a coin is not original the minute it is handed to you. I am constantly astounded at how many dealers show me cleaned coins or problem coins that they did not detect for themselves. It is a crap shoot out there at the local shows.
I cannot say what I would do as a new collector to learn originality because the auction companies would have me killed.
@gtstang said:
How much more value does CACG really bring to the table versus PCGS/CAC bean? Not any more in my opinion.
I have seen the outlandish prices folks are asking currently for CACG. Some probably just paid to get early examples. Only the buyer can say for sure.
What will CACG's move be if they do not bring in expected revenue? Changes will need to be made, just as things always have changed in this industry to keep revenue flowing.
They probably have at least 5-6 mil. invested just in the move to Virginia.
The added value has not yet been determined.
I have to disagree. Go try and find/buy CACG straight graded coins near GS Bid… If you find any, I’ll buy every one of them from you.
@gtstang said:
How much more value does CACG really bring to the table versus PCGS/CAC bean? Not any more in my opinion.
I have seen the outlandish prices folks are asking currently for CACG. Some probably just paid to get early examples. Only the buyer can say for sure.
What will CACG's move be if they do not bring in expected revenue? Changes will need to be made, just as things always have changed in this industry to keep revenue flowing.
They probably have at least 5-6 mil. invested just in the move to Virginia.
The added value has not yet been determined.
I have to disagree. Go try and find/buy CACG straight graded coins near GS Bid… If you find any, I’ll buy every one of them from you.
We only have preliminary information at this point. There aren’t enough CACG coins on the market yet to know how much added value they’ll tend to bring.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, but the early consensus is that CACG coins are CAC coins and carry the CAC premium. I believe this has always been the goal of John and the team and that they will eventually move away from the sticker business all together.
@Moparmonster said:
Yes, but the early consensus is that CACG coins are CAC coins and carry the CAC premium. I believe this has always been the goal of John and the team and that they will eventually move away from the sticker business all together.
No disagreement from here. It’s just a matter of an early/preliminary consensus vs.the unknown of a longer-based determination of value.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@gtstang said:
How much more value does CACG really bring to the table versus PCGS/CAC bean? Not any more in my opinion.
I have seen the outlandish prices folks are asking currently for CACG. Some probably just paid to get early examples. Only the buyer can say for sure.
What will CACG's move be if they do not bring in expected revenue? Changes will need to be made, just as things always have changed in this industry to keep revenue flowing.
They probably have at least 5-6 mil. invested just in the move to Virginia.
The added value has not yet been determined.
I have to disagree. Go try and find/buy CACG straight graded coins near GS Bid… If you find any, I’ll buy every one of them from you.
We only have preliminary information at this point. There aren’t enough CACG coins on the market yet to know how much added value they’ll tend to bring.
Agree. The market is far from sorted out as there aren't enough CACG coins out there yet.
Will they crack CAC details slabs to get straight graded somewhere else?
There are very few CACG coins on market (vs Pcgs / NGC) - if you pay through nose get one what’s your outlook you will be able get more for it? I had 6 CACG at a recent/ show - nobody even asked a price. Very surprising. The were buying currency and PCGs / NGC Classic plus ASE instead.
@Project Numismatics said:
One potential issue with throwing all the previously market acceptable coins into details holders is that the range of quality within CACG details holders will vary widely from harshly cleaned to (previously) market acceptable.
This will lead to highly variable pricing for CACG details labeled coins which may lead to confusion for the average collector.
Imagine a scenario where a collector walks up to a dealer with a harshly cleaned coin and is citing prices of CACG details - cleaned holdered comps. That’s going to be a hard conversation.
It's almost like judging surfaces and defining a coin strictly as cleaned/original is a line that is super tough, and even ambiguous to define I agree that this would be an issue going forward
NOT super tough and not tough AT ALL. It comes from experience, good eyesight, and proper examination techniques. I'll guarantee that any, long-time, TPGS grader, most major dealers, and many smaller dealers can easily detect originality. My blind grandmother can too. The problem is that most collectors do not have the means to study original coins closely! Once you learn what an original surface looks like, in most cases, you'll be able to tell a coin is not original the minute it is handed to you. I am constantly astounded at how many dealers show me cleaned coins or problem coins that they did not detect for themselves. It is a crap shoot out there at the local shows.
I cannot say what I would do as a new collector to learn originality because the auction companies would have me killed.
I was like half sarcastic lol, it's definitely easy to judge surfaces. I agree that a lot of people have problems judging surfaces and detecting problems. It's probably an important reason why the TPG's are still around and valued.
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
@Cougar1978 said:
Will they crack CAC details slabs to get straight graded somewhere else?
There are very few CACG coins on market (vs Pcgs / NGC) - if you pay through nose get one what’s your outlook you will be able get more for it? I had 6 CACG at a recent/ show - nobody even asked a price. Very surprising. The were buying currency and PCGs / NGC Classic plus ASE instead.
Yes, I will crack out my details coins out of the CACG slabs that I recently got back. No sense in keeping them in the holders that basically scream RUINED!
That’s interesting. At the recent show I was set up at, I sold several CAC coins and one of the big dealers there that I was talking to as the show was winding down exclaimed that he sold the highest percentage of CACG coins out of all his coins and he had several million dollars in inventory. I know he sold all his CACG coins at full retail and above the CAC CDN Guide price. People are willing to pay for quality coins. If you don’t see any added value in your CACG coins, I’ll buy them from you at bid sight unseen. Shoot me a PM!
@Moparmonster said:
First submission… Here are the two crack outs. Yes, they are holding lofty standards…
The other losers that were sent in raw
I'll only comment on the S VDB Lincoln and the Barber dime. The rim damage on the Lincoln really bothers me. I think the CACG in VF30 was generous and is a more liquid coin than the PCGS VF35. At least you can tell potential buyers the coin was correctly and honestly graded. Barber dimes have been overdipped and the lack of luster becomes apparent when compared to "control" coins. Thank goodness none of your coins were deemed to have PVC.
@Cougar1978 said:
Will they crack CAC details slabs to get straight graded somewhere else?
There are very few CACG coins on market (vs Pcgs / NGC) - if you pay through nose get one what’s your outlook you will be able get more for it? I had 6 CACG at a recent/ show - nobody even asked a price. Very surprising. The were buying currency and PCGs / NGC Classic plus ASE instead.
Yes, I will crack out my details coins out of the CACG slabs that I recently got back. No sense in keeping them in the holders that basically scream RUINED!
That’s interesting. At the recent show I was set up at, I sold several CAC coins and one of the big dealers there that I was talking to as the show was winding down exclaimed that he sold the highest percentage of CACG coins out of all his coins and he had several million dollars in inventory. I know he sold all his CACG coins at full retail and above the CAC CDN Guide price. People are willing to pay for quality coins. If you don’t see any added value in your CACG coins, I’ll buy them from you at bid sight unseen. Shoot me a PM!
So, is it ethical for a dealer to hide a problem from you?
My CACG coins mainly an advertising display / grading set. I won’t take any less than cost plus on them. I sell at retail not bid. As far as somebody paying high prices over CAC CPG well good for that seller. But I’ve checked out of that beach condo (high payer on that stuff).
My play call - I would either crackout CACG detail coins submit somewhere else hoping for straight grade or just blow them out via auction hoping the cacsters bid them up lol. As far as where a cracked coin of mine has been that’s simply proprietary with the biz.
@Project Numismatics said:
One potential issue with throwing all the previously market acceptable coins into details holders is that the range of quality within CACG details holders will vary widely from harshly cleaned to (previously) market acceptable.
This will lead to highly variable pricing for CACG details labeled coins which may lead to confusion for the average collector.
Imagine a scenario where a collector walks up to a dealer with a harshly cleaned coin and is citing prices of CACG details - cleaned holdered comps. That’s going to be a hard conversation.
Agree - there wb promising details material to cross / submit somewhere else. In that scenario, details comps - Once their BS started on that it’s time for them to leave my table. I have no interest in details material nor would pay them extra for something that’s a speculative project.
I can see where some would try crack a nice CAC details candidate coin play the casino - get a straight grade somewhere else. Perhaps game plan 3 or 4 subm then blow it out at auction if project fails.
If all the undergraded or details coin needed was a dip….might turn out real well $$$ profit. Have fun with your crackouts / submissions.
@logger7 said:
I'm curious if there are any legal exposures for the new cac company in litigation nation, as people with multiple submissions of the same coin could claim arbitrary and capricious standards where valuations would be all over the place based on their assigned grade, making consumers getting unreasonably low grades resubmit, pay even more money for their claimed accurate grading standards?
No. A submitter is paying for their honest opinion, and CACG is giving the submitter just that. That the submitter doesn’t like the result doesn’t change that.
I probably don't understand the intricacies of the market as it pertains to how the new CACG company's grades are valued; however we've gone from cac stickering PCGS and NGC coins and in many cases being willing to buy coins that met their quality standards, to now their own grading service where those money offers no longer exist with them. The idea that even their standards are subjective and variable, while many expect that their guarantee is the best in the business but you have no recourse with downgrades. So if all the evidence is that on one submission they graded a coin MS64 and the next time AU58 with huge swings in valuations are we to suppose the consumer has no recourse legally or commercially?
@Cougar1978 said:
Will they crack CAC details slabs to get straight graded somewhere else?
There are very few CACG coins on market (vs Pcgs / NGC) - if you pay through nose get one what’s your outlook you will be able get more for it? I had 6 CACG at a recent/ show - nobody even asked a price. Very surprising. The were buying currency and PCGs / NGC Classic plus ASE instead.
Yes, I will crack out my details coins out of the CACG slabs that I recently got back. No sense in keeping them in the holders that basically scream RUINED!
That’s interesting. At the recent show I was set up at, I sold several CAC coins and one of the big dealers there that I was talking to as the show was winding down exclaimed that he sold the highest percentage of CACG coins out of all his coins and he had several million dollars in inventory. I know he sold all his CACG coins at full retail and above the CAC CDN Guide price. People are willing to pay for quality coins. If you don’t see any added value in your CACG coins, I’ll buy them from you at bid sight unseen. Shoot me a PM!
So, is it ethical for a dealer to hide a problem from you?
You write like a babe in the woods. Why do you think TPGS are so important. There are ethical dealers and others.
EVERYONE POSTING HERE SHOULD KNOW it is buyer beware out there. TPGS are a useful crutch but they are not infallible.
I tell every collector that comes to me for an opinion to sell their problem coins or trade out of them. It is up to a professional to decide what they are worth to them. If the dealer cannot see a problem, that's tough! He'll learn soon or get his pants taken down by OTHER DEALERS! I discourage anyone from telling a dealer what is wrong with their coin. My line is dealer/collector. The ethics comes in when selling to someone who does not deal in coins for a living.
I agree that CACG is too tough at the moment; however, so far, except in a few cases of extreme (to me) criticalness, the coins did have problems. So far, my opinion is based on only 17 coins that we straight graded out of problem coins - one "market acceptable" over my dead body!
The cost would be a problem for a normal collector. If all 500 were Morgan and Peace dollars it would cost 15 x 500 = $7,500 to have CACG grade them. Then the unknown previous cost that was spent to have them initially graded. It would be stupid to do this.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
@Cougar1978 said:
Will they crack CAC details slabs to get straight graded somewhere else?
There are very few CACG coins on market (vs Pcgs / NGC) - if you pay through nose get one what’s your outlook you will be able get more for it? I had 6 CACG at a recent/ show - nobody even asked a price. Very surprising. The were buying currency and PCGs / NGC Classic plus ASE instead.
Yes, I will crack out my details coins out of the CACG slabs that I recently got back. No sense in keeping them in the holders that basically scream RUINED!
That’s interesting. At the recent show I was set up at, I sold several CAC coins and one of the big dealers there that I was talking to as the show was winding down exclaimed that he sold the highest percentage of CACG coins out of all his coins and he had several million dollars in inventory. I know he sold all his CACG coins at full retail and above the CAC CDN Guide price. People are willing to pay for quality coins. If you don’t see any added value in your CACG coins, I’ll buy them from you at bid sight unseen. Shoot me a PM!
So, is it ethical for a dealer to hide a problem from you?
You write like a babe in the woods. Why do you think TPGS are so important. There are ethical dealers and others.
EVERYONE POSTING HERE SHOULD KNOW it is buyer beware out there. TPGS are a useful crutch but they are not infallible.
I tell every collector that comes to me for an opinion to sell their problem coins or trade out of them. It is up to a professional to decide what they are worth to them. If the dealer cannot see a problem, that's tough! He'll learn soon or get his pants taken down by OTHER DEALERS! I discourage anyone from telling a dealer what is wrong with their coin. My line is dealer/collector. The ethics comes in when selling to someone who does not deal in coins for a living.
I agree that CACG is too tough at the moment; however, so far, except in a few cases of extreme (to me) criticalness, the coins did have problems. So far, my opinion is based on only 17 coins that we straight graded out of problem coins - one "market acceptable" over my dead body!
It was a response to a post that they would break out details coins. I maintain, babe in the woods or not, that it is UNETHICAL to hide the problem from the buyer. Are you suggesting it is NOT?
So, if the coin comes back as counterfeit, I can still sell it as genuine?
@Walkerlover said:
The best way to see if CACG is as conservative in their grading as people are perceiving. Take a sample of at least 100 PCGS/CAC coins. Of course preferably 500 or so. Crack them out and resubmitt them to CACG raw for regrading. For test purposes cheaper coins can be used to minimize submitter risk.
I think at least 85-90% would need to attain at least the same grade or better. If a higher percentage of coins grade LOWER than one can infer that CACG is indeed using a stricter set of standards than even CAC. I am allowing for a 10-15% variance from 100% to account for chance and the tastes of the different sets of graders from each service. Care to agree or disagree?
I have not read the entire thread, so this may have already been suggested.
I agree with cracking out 500 PCGS/CAC coins. I would also add 500 PCGS coins (non-CAC and unknown CAC status). I would keep these categories separate for the experiment. Crack each group of 500 and send to CACG. Then, crack them all out and re-send to PCGS. Having PCGS regrade the coins very soon after CACG would be essential to the analysis.
Each grading event is a separate data point. The grade of the same coin may be different on different submissions. The original PCGS-graded coins were graded at some point in the last 25+ years. Grading standards have changed over that span. The surface of the coins may have changed in that span. It is unfair, not realistic, and misleading to compare CACG at one point in time (today) with PCGS over a span of 25 years.
@Cougar1978 said:
Will they crack CAC details slabs to get straight graded somewhere else?
There are very few CACG coins on market (vs Pcgs / NGC) - if you pay through nose get one what’s your outlook you will be able get more for it? I had 6 CACG at a recent/ show - nobody even asked a price. Very surprising. The were buying currency and PCGs / NGC Classic plus ASE instead.
Yes, I will crack out my details coins out of the CACG slabs that I recently got back. No sense in keeping them in the holders that basically scream RUINED!
That’s interesting. At the recent show I was set up at, I sold several CAC coins and one of the big dealers there that I was talking to as the show was winding down exclaimed that he sold the highest percentage of CACG coins out of all his coins and he had several million dollars in inventory. I know he sold all his CACG coins at full retail and above the CAC CDN Guide price. People are willing to pay for quality coins. If you don’t see any added value in your CACG coins, I’ll buy them from you at bid sight unseen. Shoot me a PM!
So, is it ethical for a dealer to hide a problem from you?
You write like a babe in the woods. Why do you think TPGS are so important. There are ethical dealers and others.
EVERYONE POSTING HERE SHOULD KNOW it is buyer beware out there. TPGS are a useful crutch but they are not infallible.
I tell every collector that comes to me for an opinion to sell their problem coins or trade out of them. It is up to a professional to decide what they are worth to them. If the dealer cannot see a problem, that's tough! He'll learn soon or get his pants taken down by OTHER DEALERS! I discourage anyone from telling a dealer what is wrong with their coin. My line is dealer/collector. The ethics comes in when selling to someone who does not deal in coins for a living.
I agree that CACG is too tough at the moment; however, so far, except in a few cases of extreme (to me) criticalness, the coins did have problems. So far, my opinion is based on only 17 coins that we straight graded out of problem coins - one "market acceptable" over my dead body!
It was a response to a post that they would break out details coins. I maintain, bands in the woods or not, that it is UNETHICAL to hide the problem from the buyer. Are you suggesting it is NOT?
So, if the coin comes back as counterfeit, I can still sell it as genuine?
Don't be silly. Twisting my very clear post to make a point is something that will not fool any member here with a fundamental grasp of grade school English. If a collector has a counterfeit, he is suppose to turn it over to the Secret Service and tell them who he bought it from. Unfortunately this is hardly done anymore. As for passing it on, that is between him and his conscience. As for selling a coin that he knows has a problem, it is buyer beware. There are unethical people in the world.
@Cougar1978 said:
Will they crack CAC details slabs to get straight graded somewhere else?
There are very few CACG coins on market (vs Pcgs / NGC) - if you pay through nose get one what’s your outlook you will be able get more for it? I had 6 CACG at a recent/ show - nobody even asked a price. Very surprising. The were buying currency and PCGs / NGC Classic plus ASE instead.
Yes, I will crack out my details coins out of the CACG slabs that I recently got back. No sense in keeping them in the holders that basically scream RUINED!
That’s interesting. At the recent show I was set up at, I sold several CAC coins and one of the big dealers there that I was talking to as the show was winding down exclaimed that he sold the highest percentage of CACG coins out of all his coins and he had several million dollars in inventory. I know he sold all his CACG coins at full retail and above the CAC CDN Guide price. People are willing to pay for quality coins. If you don’t see any added value in your CACG coins, I’ll buy them from you at bid sight unseen. Shoot me a PM!
So, is it ethical for a dealer to hide a problem from you?
You write like a babe in the woods. Why do you think TPGS are so important. There are ethical dealers and others.
EVERYONE POSTING HERE SHOULD KNOW it is buyer beware out there. TPGS are a useful crutch but they are not infallible.
I tell every collector that comes to me for an opinion to sell their problem coins or trade out of them. It is up to a professional to decide what they are worth to them. If the dealer cannot see a problem, that's tough! He'll learn soon or get his pants taken down by OTHER DEALERS! I discourage anyone from telling a dealer what is wrong with their coin. My line is dealer/collector. The ethics comes in when selling to someone who does not deal in coins for a living.
I agree that CACG is too tough at the moment; however, so far, except in a few cases of extreme (to me) criticalness, the coins did have problems. So far, my opinion is based on only 17 coins that we straight graded out of problem coins - one "market acceptable" over my dead body!
It was a response to a post that they would break out details coins. I maintain, bands in the woods or not, that it is UNETHICAL to hide the problem from the buyer. Are you suggesting it is NOT?
So, if the coin comes back as counterfeit, I can still sell it as genuine?
Don't be silly. Twisting my very clear post to make a point is something that will not fool any member here with a fundamental grasp of grade school English. If a collector has a counterfeit, he is suppose to turn it over to the Secret Service and tell them who he bought it from. Unfortunately this is hardly done anymore. As for passing it on, that is between him and his conscience. As for selling a coin that he knows has a problem, it is buyer beware. There are unethical people in the world.
It may be a problem to you, them, or they but not to those others that don't see the problem. Lots of coins have been resubmitted to get a straight grade after being bagged. Where does the dishonest lie? The re-submitter? Grading service? It's ultimately up to a buyer to decide if they are willing to pay the agreed upon price. And the buyer can always ask questions.
@Cougar1978 said:
Will they crack CAC details slabs to get straight graded somewhere else?
There are very few CACG coins on market (vs Pcgs / NGC) - if you pay through nose get one what’s your outlook you will be able get more for it? I had 6 CACG at a recent/ show - nobody even asked a price. Very surprising. The were buying currency and PCGs / NGC Classic plus ASE instead.
Yes, I will crack out my details coins out of the CACG slabs that I recently got back. No sense in keeping them in the holders that basically scream RUINED!
That’s interesting. At the recent show I was set up at, I sold several CAC coins and one of the big dealers there that I was talking to as the show was winding down exclaimed that he sold the highest percentage of CACG coins out of all his coins and he had several million dollars in inventory. I know he sold all his CACG coins at full retail and above the CAC CDN Guide price. People are willing to pay for quality coins. If you don’t see any added value in your CACG coins, I’ll buy them from you at bid sight unseen. Shoot me a PM!
So, is it ethical for a dealer to hide a problem from you?
You write like a babe in the woods. Why do you think TPGS are so important. There are ethical dealers and others.
EVERYONE POSTING HERE SHOULD KNOW it is buyer beware out there. TPGS are a useful crutch but they are not infallible.
I tell every collector that comes to me for an opinion to sell their problem coins or trade out of them. It is up to a professional to decide what they are worth to them. If the dealer cannot see a problem, that's tough! He'll learn soon or get his pants taken down by OTHER DEALERS! I discourage anyone from telling a dealer what is wrong with their coin. My line is dealer/collector. The ethics comes in when selling to someone who does not deal in coins for a living.
I agree that CACG is too tough at the moment; however, so far, except in a few cases of extreme (to me) criticalness, the coins did have problems. So far, my opinion is based on only 17 coins that we straight graded out of problem coins - one "market acceptable" over my dead body!
It was a response to a post that they would break out details coins. I maintain, bands in the woods or not, that it is UNETHICAL to hide the problem from the buyer. Are you suggesting it is NOT?
So, if the coin comes back as counterfeit, I can still sell it as genuine?
Don't be silly. Twisting my very clear post to make a point is something that will not fool any member here with a fundamental grasp of grade school English. If a collector has a counterfeit, he is suppose to turn it over to the Secret Service and tell them who he bought it from. Unfortunately this is hardly done anymore. As for passing it on, that is between him and his conscience. As for selling a coin that he knows has a problem, it is buyer beware. There are unethical people in the world.
I didn't twist your words. You called me a "babe in the woods" for suggesting that passing off a problem coin without disclosing the problem was unethical. And now you just said it yourself. So, why did you make the original comment?
As for the counterfeit, which was an additional example not a twisting of your words, I'm pretty sure the Secret Service doesn't want my counterfeit Julius Caesar denarius.
@Cougar1978 said:
Will they crack CAC details slabs to get straight graded somewhere else?
There are very few CACG coins on market (vs Pcgs / NGC) - if you pay through nose get one what’s your outlook you will be able get more for it? I had 6 CACG at a recent/ show - nobody even asked a price. Very surprising. The were buying currency and PCGs / NGC Classic plus ASE instead.
Yes, I will crack out my details coins out of the CACG slabs that I recently got back. No sense in keeping them in the holders that basically scream RUINED!
That’s interesting. At the recent show I was set up at, I sold several CAC coins and one of the big dealers there that I was talking to as the show was winding down exclaimed that he sold the highest percentage of CACG coins out of all his coins and he had several million dollars in inventory. I know he sold all his CACG coins at full retail and above the CAC CDN Guide price. People are willing to pay for quality coins. If you don’t see any added value in your CACG coins, I’ll buy them from you at bid sight unseen. Shoot me a PM!
So, is it ethical for a dealer to hide a problem from you?
You write like a babe in the woods. Why do you think TPGS are so important. There are ethical dealers and others.
EVERYONE POSTING HERE SHOULD KNOW it is buyer beware out there. TPGS are a useful crutch but they are not infallible.
I tell every collector that comes to me for an opinion to sell their problem coins or trade out of them. It is up to a professional to decide what they are worth to them. If the dealer cannot see a problem, that's tough! He'll learn soon or get his pants taken down by OTHER DEALERS! I discourage anyone from telling a dealer what is wrong with their coin. My line is dealer/collector. The ethics comes in when selling to someone who does not deal in coins for a living.
I agree that CACG is too tough at the moment; however, so far, except in a few cases of extreme (to me) criticalness, the coins did have problems. So far, my opinion is based on only 17 coins that we straight graded out of problem coins - one "market acceptable" over my dead body!
It was a response to a post that they would break out details coins. I maintain, bands in the woods or not, that it is UNETHICAL to hide the problem from the buyer. Are you suggesting it is NOT?
So, if the coin comes back as counterfeit, I can still sell it as genuine?
Don't be silly. Twisting my very clear post to make a point is something that will not fool any member here with a fundamental grasp of grade school English. If a collector has a counterfeit, he is suppose to turn it over to the Secret Service and tell them who he bought it from. Unfortunately this is hardly done anymore. As for passing it on, that is between him and his conscience. As for selling a coin that he knows has a problem, it is buyer beware. There are unethical people in the world.
I didn't twist your words. You called me a "babe in the woods" for suggesting that passing off a problem coin without disclosing the problem was unethical. And now you just said it yourself. So, why did you make the original comment?
As for the counterfeit, which was an additional example not a twisting of your words, I'm pretty sure the Secret Service doesn't want my counterfeit Julius Caesar denarius.
It's sad that I must parse my words and diagram my sentences. I have not done that since High School English.
Look, you are the gentleman in our discussions while I play the sarcastic little _______. A babe in the woods refers to ANYONE who even thinks a majority of dealers will point out a problem on a coin they are selling. Therefore, as I wrote, IF YOU DON'T KNOW THAT you are posting just like one of them. I don't consider any five star member on CU to be a "Babe." However, they may write like one on occasion. I'VE BEEN GUILTY of that.
You asked me if it was OK to sell a counterfeit. I answered you. What do you think? As for your counterfeit ancient, the good ones are very $$ collectable. I've got a bag of two dozen deceptive ancients right now on my desk that I just bought from a dealer for my collection.
Now, the subject of this thread is CACG. Let's you and I try to keep on the subject while we carefully read the posts and replies.
@Cougar1978 said:
Will they crack CAC details slabs to get straight graded somewhere else?
There are very few CACG coins on market (vs Pcgs / NGC) - if you pay through nose get one what’s your outlook you will be able get more for it? I had 6 CACG at a recent/ show - nobody even asked a price. Very surprising. The were buying currency and PCGs / NGC Classic plus ASE instead.
Yes, I will crack out my details coins out of the CACG slabs that I recently got back. No sense in keeping them in the holders that basically scream RUINED!
That’s interesting. At the recent show I was set up at, I sold several CAC coins and one of the big dealers there that I was talking to as the show was winding down exclaimed that he sold the highest percentage of CACG coins out of all his coins and he had several million dollars in inventory. I know he sold all his CACG coins at full retail and above the CAC CDN Guide price. People are willing to pay for quality coins. If you don’t see any added value in your CACG coins, I’ll buy them from you at bid sight unseen. Shoot me a PM!
So, is it ethical for a dealer to hide a problem from you?
You write like a babe in the woods. Why do you think TPGS are so important. There are ethical dealers and others.
EVERYONE POSTING HERE SHOULD KNOW it is buyer beware out there. TPGS are a useful crutch but they are not infallible.
I tell every collector that comes to me for an opinion to sell their problem coins or trade out of them. It is up to a professional to decide what they are worth to them. If the dealer cannot see a problem, that's tough! He'll learn soon or get his pants taken down by OTHER DEALERS! I discourage anyone from telling a dealer what is wrong with their coin. My line is dealer/collector. The ethics comes in when selling to someone who does not deal in coins for a living.
I agree that CACG is too tough at the moment; however, so far, except in a few cases of extreme (to me) criticalness, the coins did have problems. So far, my opinion is based on only 17 coins that we straight graded out of problem coins - one "market acceptable" over my dead body!
It was a response to a post that they would break out details coins. I maintain, bands in the woods or not, that it is UNETHICAL to hide the problem from the buyer. Are you suggesting it is NOT?
So, if the coin comes back as counterfeit, I can still sell it as genuine?
Don't be silly. Twisting my very clear post to make a point is something that will not fool any member here with a fundamental grasp of grade school English. If a collector has a counterfeit, he is suppose to turn it over to the Secret Service and tell them who he bought it from. Unfortunately this is hardly done anymore. As for passing it on, that is between him and his conscience. As for selling a coin that he knows has a problem, it is buyer beware. There are unethical people in the world.
I didn't twist your words. You called me a "babe in the woods" for suggesting that passing off a problem coin without disclosing the problem was unethical. And now you just said it yourself. So, why did you make the original comment?
As for the counterfeit, which was an additional example not a twisting of your words, I'm pretty sure the Secret Service doesn't want my counterfeit Julius Caesar denarius.
It's sad that I must parse my words and diagram my sentences. I have not done that since High School English.
Look, you are the gentleman in our discussions while I play the sarcastic little _______. A babe in the woods refers to ANYONE who even thinks a majority of dealers will point out a problem on a coin they are selling. Therefore, as I wrote, IF YOU DON'T KNOW THAT you are posting just like one of them. I don't consider any five star member on CU to be a "Babe." However, they may write like one on occasion. I'VE BEEN GUILTY of that.
You asked me if it was OK to sell a counterfeit. I answered you. What do you think? As for your counterfeit ancient, the good ones are very $$ collectable. I've got a bag of two dozen deceptive ancients right now on my desk that I just bought from a dealer for my collection.
Now, the subject of this thread is CACG. Let's you and I try to keep on the subject while we carefully read the posts and replies.
Honestly, I don't care if it is a majority or a minority. ETHICAL dealers will disclose everything. I want my customers to be knowledgeable and to trust in me. I disclose everything. I am quite certain that I'm not the only one. As for other people, hopefully karma exists...
@JimTyler said:
I’ve been wondering if coins sold by John Albanese prior to CAC would pass CAC.
I'm quite sure coins sold by John Albanese would be sold with full disclosure and an accurate assessment of grade. He is known to be highly ethical and a straight shooter.
As for the irregularity or changeableness of the grade of cracked out coins with cac, I thought that the "fingerprint" technology would have been adopted by cac if they have access to it. The idea was, if I understand it, that on subsequent submissions with PCGS that the coin would be recognized as having already gone through grading as the "shield" indicates and unless fresh marks etc. had been added to the surfaces it would be graded the same as previously.
The customer got it today, notified me that he saw scratches on the reverse. He also contacted cac where they looked it up agreed with him that the reverse did not look right and then Ron one of the heads contacted him and offered to make good on it, resolving it all the same day. I've initiated guarantee/warranty submissions at the two top companies, often that take months to get resolved. ICG resolved a complaint I had on one of their coins I bought and sent me a better replacement. It's good to see hands-on guarantees that satisfy the customers quickly.
The customer got it today, notified me that he saw scratches on the reverse. He also contacted cac where they looked it up agreed with him that the reverse did not look right and then Ron one of the heads contacted him and offered to make good on it, resolving it all the same day. I've initiated guarantee/warranty submissions at the two top companies, often that take months to get resolved. ICG resolved a complaint I had on one of their coins I bought and sent me a better replacement. It's good to see hands-on guarantees that satisfy the customers quickly.
In the CACG images I only see minor scratches that look acceptable for a MS64. Am I missing something?
Looked at about 30 CACG graded Jeffs on ebay.....thus far, coins with weak details have been graded low 64-65 if that's any indication. But I'm not holding my breath by any means that they're holding to a higher standard on the strike/fully detailed for the upper grades. Too small of a field of coins. It's likely coming soon, that not enough submitters have gripped enough that, "most Jeffs come with weak strikes, we can't make any money until you give out higher grades" and CACG will soon be on their knees obliging the complainers/submitters with whatever they want. And again, the Jefferson nickels will fail to get the over-due respect they deserve for being the most difficult series to collect in full strike!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Honestly, I don't care if it is a majority or a minority. ETHICAL dealers will disclose everything. I want my customers to be knowledgeable and to trust in me. I disclose everything. I am quite certain that I'm not the only one. As for other people, hopefully karma exists...
Are you saying your grading skills are on the same level as those at CAC and CACG?
Honestly, I don't care if it is a majority or a minority. ETHICAL dealers will disclose everything. I want my customers to be knowledgeable and to trust in me. I disclose everything. I am quite certain that I'm not the only one. As for other people, hopefully karma exists...
Are you saying your grading skills are on the same level as those at CAC and CACG?
That is not what he wrote. Any knowledgeable collector can look at a coin and describe what they see. This dealer has five stars so he must be pretty good.
The customer got it today, notified me that he saw scratches on the reverse. He also contacted cac where they looked it up agreed with him that the reverse did not look right and then Ron one of the heads contacted him and offered to make good on it, resolving it all the same day. I've initiated guarantee/warranty submissions at the two top companies, often that take months to get resolved. ICG resolved a complaint I had on one of their coins I bought and sent me a better replacement. It's good to see hands-on guarantees that satisfy the customers quickly.
Those are horrible, washed-out pictures. How can anyone see anything. After being stung long ago with problem coins I'm a very observant collector and look at every coin I buy with a 10X hand lens first. I tried to blow the image up for a close look but I could not.
Honestly, I don't care if it is a majority or a minority. ETHICAL dealers will disclose everything. I want my customers to be knowledgeable and to trust in me. I disclose everything. I am quite certain that I'm not the only one. As for other people, hopefully karma exists...
Are you saying your grading skills are on the same level as those at CAC and CACG?
Where, exactly, did I mention my grading skills at all? While I'm waiting...
The question was whether it was ethical to hide information from a buyer. The specific example was breaking out a CACG details coin and selling it raw. Since I indicated that was unethical because of the CACG opinion, I was actually suggesting my skills were NOT better than CACG - the exact opposite of your implication.
Comments
I would not be happy getting lower grade numbers / details on a submission to them (CACG). At this point from posts here and half dozen paid thru nose for feel they are really tough, plus expensive. Pass - Good luck in getting all the money for them.
Have you checked to see what their fees are compared to those of the other grading companies? I'll answer for you - No.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
One potential issue with throwing all the previously market acceptable coins into details holders is that the range of quality within CACG details holders will vary widely from harshly cleaned to (previously) market acceptable.
This will lead to highly variable pricing for CACG details labeled coins which may lead to confusion for the average collector.
Imagine a scenario where a collector walks up to a dealer with a harshly cleaned coin and is citing prices of CACG details - cleaned holdered comps. That’s going to be a hard conversation.
It's almost like judging surfaces and defining a coin strictly as cleaned/original is a line that is super tough, and even ambiguous to define
I agree that this would be an issue going forward
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
The same scenario could already be occurring with NGC and PCGS details-cleaned (or harshly cleaned) coins. Even within each details-grade, there can be very large difference sin value. So I don't think the CACG details-grade coins will be a whole lot different.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How much more value does CACG really bring to the table versus PCGS/CAC bean? Not any more in my opinion.
I have seen the outlandish prices folks are asking currently for CACG. Some probably just paid to get early examples. Only the buyer can say for sure.
What will CACG's move be if they do not bring in expected revenue? Changes will need to be made, just as things always have changed in this industry to keep revenue flowing.
They probably have at least 5-6 mil. invested just in the move to Virginia.
I think the challenge is that CACG is basically redefining market acceptable and that’s going to take a lot of education on the collector side. That burden will likely fall mostly on your average dealer.
CAC stickers offered the market a three tier structure - 1) details 2) market acceptable (P/N straight graded) and 3) beaned (original and properly graded). Sorting that middle tier will lead to more variability.
I would like to see a bit more granularity in the descriptions for CACG details coins. Potential descriptors like “hairlined”, “unacceptably dipped” and “lightly cleaned” etc. could help with both education and pricing. And isn’t grading really an exercise in pricing
? Basically formalize the feedback JA had been giving at CAC via yellow and red dots. See: https://forum.cacgrading.com/discussion/185/here-are-some-great-examples-of-how-ja-can-help-you-sharpen-your-grading-skills-with-his-dots/p1
What is market acceptable to me is accurately graded coins. I think CACG will do just fine.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
Even worse, the same issue would be happening NOW with straight graded coins that could (should?) be in details holder.
The added value has not yet been determined.
Are we done kicking the dead horse?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
You do learn alot about CAC and CACG and John Albanese by reading his 2009 and 2022 CoinWeek interviews....plus the CACForum posts are informative.
Those of you who speak to JA regularly, it's probably Old News but for those of us who have never met him and probably won't be able to sit down with him, his interviews and posts offer a window into his grading acumen and thinking.
NOT super tough and not tough AT ALL. It comes from experience, good eyesight, and proper examination techniques. I'll guarantee that any, long-time, TPGS grader, most major dealers, and many smaller dealers can easily detect originality. My blind grandmother can too. The problem is that most collectors do not have the means to study original coins closely! Once you learn what an original surface looks like, in most cases, you'll be able to tell a coin is not original the minute it is handed to you. I am constantly astounded at how many dealers show me cleaned coins or problem coins that they did not detect for themselves. It is a crap shoot out there at the local shows.
I cannot say what I would do as a new collector to learn originality because the auction companies would have me killed.
I have to disagree. Go try and find/buy CACG straight graded coins near GS Bid… If you find any, I’ll buy every one of them from you.
.> @Moparmonster said:
We only have preliminary information at this point. There aren’t enough CACG coins on the market yet to know how much added value they’ll tend to bring.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, but the early consensus is that CACG coins are CAC coins and carry the CAC premium. I believe this has always been the goal of John and the team and that they will eventually move away from the sticker business all together.
No disagreement from here. It’s just a matter of an early/preliminary consensus vs.the unknown of a longer-based determination of value.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Nope. Caneing Deceased Equines runs through Friday at 4pm, when the latest VaultBox screed starts.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Agree. The market is far from sorted out as there aren't enough CACG coins out there yet.
Will they crack CAC details slabs to get straight graded somewhere else?
There are very few CACG coins on market (vs Pcgs / NGC) - if you pay through nose get one what’s your outlook you will be able get more for it? I had 6 CACG at a recent/ show - nobody even asked a price. Very surprising. The were buying currency and PCGs / NGC Classic plus ASE instead.
I was like half sarcastic lol, it's definitely easy to judge surfaces. I agree that a lot of people have problems judging surfaces and detecting problems. It's probably an important reason why the TPG's are still around and valued.
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
Yes, I will crack out my details coins out of the CACG slabs that I recently got back. No sense in keeping them in the holders that basically scream RUINED!
That’s interesting. At the recent show I was set up at, I sold several CAC coins and one of the big dealers there that I was talking to as the show was winding down exclaimed that he sold the highest percentage of CACG coins out of all his coins and he had several million dollars in inventory. I know he sold all his CACG coins at full retail and above the CAC CDN Guide price. People are willing to pay for quality coins. If you don’t see any added value in your CACG coins, I’ll buy them from you at bid sight unseen. Shoot me a PM!
I'm confused, why would anyone expect to buy a CACG at GS Bid? Wouldn't GS Ask be more appropriate?
I'll only comment on the S VDB Lincoln and the Barber dime. The rim damage on the Lincoln really bothers me. I think the CACG in VF30 was generous and is a more liquid coin than the PCGS VF35. At least you can tell potential buyers the coin was correctly and honestly graded. Barber dimes have been overdipped and the lack of luster becomes apparent when compared to "control" coins. Thank goodness none of your coins were deemed to have PVC.
So, is it ethical for a dealer to hide a problem from you?
My CACG coins mainly an advertising display / grading set. I won’t take any less than cost plus on them. I sell at retail not bid. As far as somebody paying high prices over CAC CPG well good for that seller. But I’ve checked out of that beach condo (high payer on that stuff).
My play call - I would either crackout CACG detail coins submit somewhere else hoping for straight grade or just blow them out via auction hoping the cacsters bid them up lol. As far as where a cracked coin of mine has been that’s simply proprietary with the biz.
Agree - there wb promising details material to cross / submit somewhere else. In that scenario, details comps - Once their BS started on that it’s time for them to leave my table. I have no interest in details material nor would pay them extra for something that’s a speculative project.
I can see where some would try crack a nice CAC details candidate coin play the casino - get a straight grade somewhere else. Perhaps game plan 3 or 4 subm then blow it out at auction if project fails.
If all the undergraded or details coin needed was a dip….might turn out real well $$$ profit. Have fun with your crackouts / submissions.
Damnum absque injuria
You write like a babe in the woods. Why do you think TPGS are so important. There are ethical dealers and others.
EVERYONE POSTING HERE SHOULD KNOW it is buyer beware out there. TPGS are a useful crutch but they are not infallible.
I tell every collector that comes to me for an opinion to sell their problem coins or trade out of them. It is up to a professional to decide what they are worth to them. If the dealer cannot see a problem, that's tough! He'll learn soon or get his pants taken down by OTHER DEALERS! I discourage anyone from telling a dealer what is wrong with their coin. My line is dealer/collector. The ethics comes in when selling to someone who does not deal in coins for a living.
I agree that CACG is too tough at the moment; however, so far, except in a few cases of extreme (to me) criticalness, the coins did have problems. So far, my opinion is based on only 17 coins that we straight graded out of problem coins - one "market acceptable" over my dead body!
I’ve been wondering if coins sold by John Albanese prior to CAC would pass CAC.
The cost would be a problem for a normal collector. If all 500 were Morgan and Peace dollars it would cost 15 x 500 = $7,500 to have CACG grade them. Then the unknown previous cost that was spent to have them initially graded. It would be stupid to do this.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
It was a response to a post that they would break out details coins. I maintain, babe in the woods or not, that it is UNETHICAL to hide the problem from the buyer. Are you suggesting it is NOT?
So, if the coin comes back as counterfeit, I can still sell it as genuine?
I have not read the entire thread, so this may have already been suggested.
I agree with cracking out 500 PCGS/CAC coins. I would also add 500 PCGS coins (non-CAC and unknown CAC status). I would keep these categories separate for the experiment. Crack each group of 500 and send to CACG. Then, crack them all out and re-send to PCGS. Having PCGS regrade the coins very soon after CACG would be essential to the analysis.
Each grading event is a separate data point. The grade of the same coin may be different on different submissions. The original PCGS-graded coins were graded at some point in the last 25+ years. Grading standards have changed over that span. The surface of the coins may have changed in that span. It is unfair, not realistic, and misleading to compare CACG at one point in time (today) with PCGS over a span of 25 years.
Don't be silly. Twisting my very clear post to make a point is something that will not fool any member here with a fundamental grasp of grade school English. If a collector has a counterfeit, he is suppose to turn it over to the Secret Service and tell them who he bought it from. Unfortunately this is hardly done anymore. As for passing it on, that is between him and his conscience. As for selling a coin that he knows has a problem, it is buyer beware. There are unethical people in the world.
It may be a problem to you, them, or they but not to those others that don't see the problem. Lots of coins have been resubmitted to get a straight grade after being bagged. Where does the dishonest lie? The re-submitter? Grading service? It's ultimately up to a buyer to decide if they are willing to pay the agreed upon price. And the buyer can always ask questions.
I didn't twist your words. You called me a "babe in the woods" for suggesting that passing off a problem coin without disclosing the problem was unethical. And now you just said it yourself. So, why did you make the original comment?
As for the counterfeit, which was an additional example not a twisting of your words, I'm pretty sure the Secret Service doesn't want my counterfeit Julius Caesar denarius.
It's sad that I must parse my words and diagram my sentences. I have not done that since High School English.
are the gentleman in our discussions while I play the sarcastic little _______. A babe in the woods refers to ANYONE who even thinks a majority of dealers will point out a problem on a coin they are selling. Therefore, as I wrote, IF YOU DON'T KNOW THAT you are posting just like one of them. I don't consider any five star member on CU to be a "Babe." However, they may write like one on occasion. I'VE BEEN GUILTY of that.
Look, you
You asked me if it was OK to sell a counterfeit. I answered you. What do you think? As for your counterfeit ancient, the good ones are very $$ collectable. I've got a bag of two dozen deceptive ancients right now on my desk that I just bought from a dealer for my collection.
Now, the subject of this thread is CACG. Let's you and I try to keep on the subject while we carefully read the posts and replies.
Honestly, I don't care if it is a majority or a minority. ETHICAL dealers will disclose everything. I want my customers to be knowledgeable and to trust in me. I disclose everything. I am quite certain that I'm not the only one. As for other people, hopefully karma exists...
I'm quite sure coins sold by John Albanese would be sold with full disclosure and an accurate assessment of grade. He is known to be highly ethical and a straight shooter.
As for the irregularity or changeableness of the grade of cracked out coins with cac, I thought that the "fingerprint" technology would have been adopted by cac if they have access to it. The idea was, if I understand it, that on subsequent submissions with PCGS that the coin would be recognized as having already gone through grading as the "shield" indicates and unless fresh marks etc. had been added to the surfaces it would be graded the same as previously.
I sold this 1879-s Morgan dollar that CACG certified: https://www.cacgrading.com/cert/840577425
The customer got it today, notified me that he saw scratches on the reverse. He also contacted cac where they looked it up agreed with him that the reverse did not look right and then Ron one of the heads contacted him and offered to make good on it, resolving it all the same day. I've initiated guarantee/warranty submissions at the two top companies, often that take months to get resolved. ICG resolved a complaint I had on one of their coins I bought and sent me a better replacement. It's good to see hands-on guarantees that satisfy the customers quickly.
In the CACG images I only see minor scratches that look acceptable for a MS64. Am I missing something?
Looked at about 30 CACG graded Jeffs on ebay.....thus far, coins with weak details have been graded low 64-65 if that's any indication. But I'm not holding my breath by any means that they're holding to a higher standard on the strike/fully detailed for the upper grades. Too small of a field of coins. It's likely coming soon, that not enough submitters have gripped enough that, "most Jeffs come with weak strikes, we can't make any money until you give out higher grades" and CACG will soon be on their knees obliging the complainers/submitters with whatever they want. And again, the Jefferson nickels will fail to get the over-due respect they deserve for being the most difficult series to collect in full strike!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I think it would help if CACG would post pictures of the reverse slab upside down.
Are you saying your grading skills are on the same level as those at CAC and CACG?
Here she is..........
That is not what he wrote. Any knowledgeable collector can look at a coin and describe what they see. This dealer has five stars so he must be pretty good.
Those are horrible, washed-out pictures. How can anyone see anything. After being stung long ago with problem coins I'm a very observant collector and look at every coin I buy with a 10X hand lens first. I tried to blow the image up for a close look but I could not.
Where, exactly, did I mention my grading skills at all? While I'm waiting...
The question was whether it was ethical to hide information from a buyer. The specific example was breaking out a CACG details coin and selling it raw. Since I indicated that was unethical because of the CACG opinion, I was actually suggesting my skills were NOT better than CACG - the exact opposite of your implication.