I apologize in advance for being contentious and pedantic but you do not. Earlier, you said specifically that you will not buy every single error coin and you have extremely tight guidelines. No problem, that is your MO as a dealer.
A market maker cannot operate under those requirements. A market maker MUST make a market, even if you don't like the item being sold. The market maker compensates for buying lowly desired items by setting a low bid price. The market maker compensates for being forced to sell highly desired items by setting a high offer price. The market maker exists solely to flip items and endeavors to NOT keep inventory.
You are not a market maker. You are a dealer in a very specialized corner of the market.
Wrong, a coin market maker does not have to buy every coin. I only buy high end eye appeal so If a struck thru cloth error coin comes up and has horrible eye appeal or a low grade, I can not buy it as that is not my "market"
Show us a published definition from **any **respected source that defines a "market maker" the way YOU describe your business model. I don't think you'll be able to do so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I apologize in advance for being contentious and pedantic but you do not. Earlier, you said specifically that you will not buy every single error coin and you have extremely tight guidelines. No problem, that is your MO as a dealer.
A market maker cannot operate under those requirements. A market maker MUST make a market, even if you don't like the item being sold. The market maker compensates for buying lowly desired items by setting a low bid price. The market maker compensates for being forced to sell highly desired items by setting a high offer price. The market maker exists solely to flip items and endeavors to NOT keep inventory.
You are not a market maker. You are a dealer in a very specialized corner of the market.
Wrong, a coin market maker does not have to buy every coin. I only buy high end eye appeal so If a struck thru cloth error coin comes up and has horrible eye appeal or a low grade, I can not buy it as that is not my "market"
I apologize in advance for being contentious and pedantic but you do not. Earlier, you said specifically that you will not buy every single error coin and you have extremely tight guidelines. No problem, that is your MO as a dealer.
A market maker cannot operate under those requirements. A market maker MUST make a market, even if you don't like the item being sold. The market maker compensates for buying lowly desired items by setting a low bid price. The market maker compensates for being forced to sell highly desired items by setting a high offer price. The market maker exists solely to flip items and endeavors to NOT keep inventory.
You are not a market maker. You are a dealer in a very specialized corner of the market.
Wrong, a coin market maker does not have to buy every coin. I only buy high end eye appeal so If a struck thru cloth error coin comes up and has horrible eye appeal or a low grade, I can not buy it as that is not my "market"
Show us a published definition from **any **respected source that defines a "market maker" the way YOU describe your business model. I don't think you'll be able to do so.
I apologize in advance for being contentious and pedantic but you do not. Earlier, you said specifically that you will not buy every single error coin and you have extremely tight guidelines. No problem, that is your MO as a dealer.
A market maker cannot operate under those requirements. A market maker MUST make a market, even if you don't like the item being sold. The market maker compensates for buying lowly desired items by setting a low bid price. The market maker compensates for being forced to sell highly desired items by setting a high offer price. The market maker exists solely to flip items and endeavors to NOT keep inventory.
You are not a market maker. You are a dealer in a very specialized corner of the market.
Wrong, a coin market maker does not have to buy every coin. I only buy high end eye appeal so If a struck thru cloth error coin comes up and has horrible eye appeal or a low grade, I can not buy it as that is not my "market"
Show us a published definition from **any **respected source that defines a "market maker" the way YOU describe your business model. I don't think you'll be able to do so.
I honestly could care less of what your definition is.
I know what I have and how to run a very successful full time coin business all on my own.
One key coin that proves demand is king is the 1856 flying eagle. In order for the pricing to stay where it is, (which is ridiculous) through pre and post web, the demand must be off the scale. Talk about over-hype!
I apologize in advance for being contentious and pedantic but you do not. Earlier, you said specifically that you will not buy every single error coin and you have extremely tight guidelines. No problem, that is your MO as a dealer.
A market maker cannot operate under those requirements. A market maker MUST make a market, even if you don't like the item being sold. The market maker compensates for buying lowly desired items by setting a low bid price. The market maker compensates for being forced to sell highly desired items by setting a high offer price. The market maker exists solely to flip items and endeavors to NOT keep inventory.
You are not a market maker. You are a dealer in a very specialized corner of the market.
Wrong, a coin market maker does not have to buy every coin. I only buy high end eye appeal so If a struck thru cloth error coin comes up and has horrible eye appeal or a low grade, I can not buy it as that is not my "market"
Show us a published definition from **any **respected source that defines a "market maker" the way YOU describe your business model. I don't think you'll be able to do so.
I honestly could care less of what your definition is.
I know what I have and how to run a very successful full time coin business all on my own.
Today is another Wonderfull day
I didn't offer a definition for you to care or care less about. And no one questioned whether you know how to run a successful business on your own. Why would anyone bother to question it, when you already repeatedly brag about it?
Some of us merely called you on your false claim that you're a "market maker". I don't know whether you actually mistakenly think you are one, or if you know better, but prefer to pretend that you are. Either way, enjoy your wonderful day, but please stop with the "market maker" bologna.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I apologize in advance for being contentious and pedantic but you do not. Earlier, you said specifically that you will not buy every single error coin and you have extremely tight guidelines. No problem, that is your MO as a dealer.
A market maker cannot operate under those requirements. A market maker MUST make a market, even if you don't like the item being sold. The market maker compensates for buying lowly desired items by setting a low bid price. The market maker compensates for being forced to sell highly desired items by setting a high offer price. The market maker exists solely to flip items and endeavors to NOT keep inventory.
You are not a market maker. You are a dealer in a very specialized corner of the market.
Wrong, a coin market maker does not have to buy every coin. I only buy high end eye appeal so If a struck thru cloth error coin comes up and has horrible eye appeal or a low grade, I can not buy it as that is not my "market"
That is not the definition of "market maker"...
But it's close to the opposite of one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I like 55 doubled die cents. Your curved clip doesn't interest me.
As a major error coin dealer/collector, I have never owned a 1955 Double Die because it is way too common.
I'll take that clip every day because it is way undervalued and way way more rare.
I know. But, of course, you're also talking your book.
I don't believe any US coin is overvalued or undervalued. The market is too mature for that.
I disagree, so many factors to consider. Every single coin that I buy is undervalued, otherwise I would not buy it.
I would like to think the same thing about my scarce to rare chopmarked trade dollars however the market demand just isn't there. Despite how unique and interesting your coins are, I would never be interested in paying a premium for an error coin and many others are the same. Many would say the exact same thing about chopmarks or lots of other types of coins as well. It's not that complicated, you have to have the demand to push the value up otherwise scarcity or uniqueness by itself doesn't mean anything (when talking monetary value).
That is not what I am saying. Do you buy every single chopmarked dollar you see or do you just buy the nicest ones that you perceive are undervalued to the market?
Every coin I buy is undervalued in the market. I do not not buy every error coin that I see. It's called being a dealer.
Perhaps you're the lone exception, but I don't know any dealers who make a profit on every coin they sell. So, while they buy coins that they think are undervalued and/or that they can sell for a profit - those aren't necessarily the same thing - they're not always right. Your posts indicate that you KNOW that which everyone else merely thinks. I'm happy for you.
Chris is willing to hold the coins for as long as it takes for the market to make him "right". It'll be interesting to see what happens if error coins go into a prolonged downturn.
Its not amount making me right. It is about buying undervalued based on all my points above. And pricing those coins properly with excellentphotography.
I make markets!
I don't understand how it's possible to "make markets" in unique coins.
Obviously, it’s not like in the stock market, where market makers are expected to always maintain an inventory in their markets. Being a market maker in rare coins just means you’re always in the market to buy or sell whatever you can, at realistic prices.
Andy, I don't think that your definition of a "market maker" in rare coins can realistically be applied to one-of-a- kind (or extremely low population) coins that don't have established market values. I'm speaking of issues such as many of the Pattern and error coins.
Frankly, I deal in those things and I never actually refer to myself as a market maker. But the truth is that if a dealer in such things refers to himself as a marketmaker, or if someone else describes him that way, I know exactly what he means, even if it wasn't the ideal choice of words. And like I said before, it means that he's always in the market to buy or sell whatever he can, at realistic prices. At least that's been my experience.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
So, if I am looking for a specific grade of AU58 for an Everyman collection, then I am ignoring all other grades of that date and mint (in this case New Orleans). For example, this 1896-O Barber Half in PCGS AU58 CAC has a population of 8 (pop of 2 with CAC sticker... this coin and the beautifully toned "Property of a Lady" PCGS AU58 - note targeting PCGS-graded here) and is "less than 10" in this narrow context. In reality, there are many more extant of the 1896-O half dollar. So not rare (there are more than 10). As Mark F. states, this speaks to demand and not necessarily rarity when considering this New Orleans issue half dollar. (Using this post to provide an example). The context is related to your collecting target and what is acceptable to satisfy that target.
Tim
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
Every series has a key date, by definition. Key date is the date that is the "key" to finishing the set. It's the coin that is the most focused on because it's hardest to get, usually because it's the rarest, but not always. It doesn't necessarily translate to absolute rarity.
I think a coin is rare when you can't simply go out and buy one anytime, but have to wait a year or more for the coin to come on the market. I don't view keys or even conventionally classic US rarities as "rare" because they show up at auction more than once a year. For example, a quick check of eBay shows 4 1909-S VDB cents in MS65 red, with one being CAC'd. What's rare about that? There are 6 1797 half dollars on eBay now. But there's no 1802 half dimes and I don't see them at auction frequently - that to me is a rare coin.
Key date = difficult to find / not frequently at auction or for sale. Price not necessarily prohibitive. - 1844 $10, 1860-S quarter. 1850-52 / 1855-S & 1857-S Halves.
Key date = Relatively "rare". Coin is readily available - price to acquire is out of the budget or financial means of the set builder - 1909-S VDB, 1916-D Merc, 1916 Quarter, 1913-S quarter, 1893-S Morgan.
Key date - objectively rare and price prohibitive - 1878-S Seated Half, 1873 & 1875 $10.
Key date - Coin is difficult to find for sale in certain grade range and with good to superb eye appeal. - 1896-O, 1897-O AU50-58 Barber Halves, 1921-P, D, S AU53-58 Walking Liberty halves.... - add another 500 different date / mintmarks to the list.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen coins labeled as conditional rarities, Couldn't there also be conditional key dates too ? With coins that are not actually rare but are in certain grades. I won't ID the coin but I could buy the date in ms66
at any time but only 3 offered in ms67 over 2 1/2 years in ms67. Total pop of 9 in ms67.
@Tom147 said:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen coins labeled as conditional rarities, Couldn't there also be conditional key dates too ? With coins that are not actually rare but are in certain grades. I won't ID the coin but I could buy the date in ms66
at any time but only 3 offered in ms67 over 2 1/2 years in ms67. Total pop of 9 in ms67.
I wouldn’t call an 1886-O Morgan a key date, but I would call it a key date to a set of gem Morgans. Anyway , there are no rules about this stuff. Just a matter of trying to be clear.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I apologize in advance for being contentious and pedantic but you do not. Earlier, you said specifically that you will not buy every single error coin and you have extremely tight guidelines. No problem, that is your MO as a dealer.
A market maker cannot operate under those requirements. A market maker MUST make a market, even if you don't like the item being sold. The market maker compensates for buying lowly desired items by setting a low bid price. The market maker compensates for being forced to sell highly desired items by setting a high offer price. The market maker exists solely to flip items and endeavors to NOT keep inventory.
You are not a market maker. You are a dealer in a very specialized corner of the market.
Wrong, a coin market maker does not have to buy every coin. I only buy high end eye appeal so If a struck thru cloth error coin comes up and has horrible eye appeal or a low grade, I can not buy it as that is not my "market"
I don't think we could ever have a conversation IRL. There are far too many words that we define so differently as to be mutually incomprehensible.
@SimonW said:
Every series has a key date, by definition. Key date is the date that is the "key" to finishing the set. It's the coin that is the most focused on because it's hardest to get, usually because it's the rarest, but not always. It doesn't necessarily translate to absolute rarity.
@Tom147 said:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen coins labeled as conditional rarities, Couldn't there also be conditional key dates too ? With coins that are not actually rare but are in certain grades. I won't ID the coin but I could buy the date in ms66
at any time but only 3 offered in ms67 over 2 1/2 years in ms67. Total pop of 9 in ms67.
A 1901-S Barber Quarter in AU comes to mind. Beyond that key, others find themselves in a similar situation like the 1909-O quarter in AU or a lower mintage 1899-S quarter you can find regularly but non-Details VF? difficult. CoinFacts POP can back your thinking uo to some degree. Agree.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
@jedm said: @SilverEagle1974 I'd bet you never thought the discussion would devolve into this did you?
fixed it so I can agree with your assessment and change the definition.
At that point in the discussion we were only debating the definition of "market maker" and DEVOLVE is surely a better word for it, but we're past that point now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bXEHGUvVrA
@SimonW said:
Every series has a key date, by definition. Key date is the date that is the "key" to finishing the set. It's the coin that is the most focused on because it's hardest to get, usually because it's the rarest, but not always. It doesn't necessarily translate to absolute rarity.
There are some series that have no "hard to get" coins, such as silver Roosevelt dimes 1946-1964 in circulated grades. Over 12 million of the lowest-mintage 1955 Philadelphia dime were struck, and it commands little or no premium.
@SimonW said:
Every series has a key date, by definition. Key date is the date that is the "key" to finishing the set. It's the coin that is the most focused on because it's hardest to get, usually because it's the rarest, but not always. It doesn't necessarily translate to absolute rarity.
There are some series that have no "hard to get" coins, such as silver Roosevelt dimes 1946-1964 in circulated grades. Over 12 million of the lowest-mintage 1955 Philadelphia dime were struck, and it commands little or no premium.
Yet you will see people refer to the 55 (PDS) or 49-S as "key" or "semi-key" dates.
Also, "hardest to get" doesn't have to mean it's "hard to get". An S-VDB is the "hardest to get" in the series, but it's very easy to get. You could buy a dozen of them before breakfast.
@SimonW said:
Every series has a key date, by definition. Key date is the date that is the "key" to finishing the set. It's the coin that is the most focused on because it's hardest to get, usually because it's the rarest, but not always. It doesn't necessarily translate to absolute rarity.
There are some series that have no "hard to get" coins, such as silver Roosevelt dimes 1946-1964 in circulated grades. Over 12 million of the lowest-mintage 1955 Philadelphia dime were struck, and it commands little or no premium.
Yet you will see people refer to the 55 (PDS) or 49-S as "key" or "semi-key" dates.
Also, "hardest to get" doesn't have to mean it's "hard to get". An S-VDB is the "hardest to get" in the series, but it's very easy to get. You could buy a dozen of them before breakfast.
That may be true, although after 14 years in a B&M. (and that's not long), nearly every cent collector who's come in the shop still needs an S-VDB, a '14-D, '22 Plain, '31-S for his/her "Whitman folder". And so "if you had the money " , you could buy anything. But maybe riches are "rare" for a vast majority. Sometimes, I think we (collectively here) are insulated and sheltered to think " in the boxes' some of us think out of. So are there "keys" , or aren't there ?
I was never talking scarce or rare and I'm not sure the OP was, or is either.
Speaking of having the money...I manage a small retail cellphone shop, and every week one of my small pleasures is to go through a few rolls of quarters and I pull out what interests me. Yesterday I found a 1973 (not even sure which mint). Uncirculated, looked like the day it was made, even though it came in a mixed roll. Who knows how it got there?
It got me thinking, that was a key date in my life. I had just finished my sophomore summer after loosing a best friend. I'd just gotten my drivers license, school was starting, Angie by the Rolling Stones was on the radio every day, and I was starting a new job at a cheese factory. Friday night football games, crisp cool Saturday mornings, and Husker games on the radio in the afternoon. Ah, memories how they linger.
I had a mylar flip at the store, so I put it right out there front and center on display with a gold background, being that 1973 was 50 years ago. I plan to enjoy that key date coin being there, and the way it makes me feel when I see it.
@SimonW said:
Every series has a key date, by definition. Key date is the date that is the "key" to finishing the set. It's the coin that is the most focused on because it's hardest to get, usually because it's the rarest, but not always. It doesn't necessarily translate to absolute rarity.
There are some series that have no "hard to get" coins, such as silver Roosevelt dimes 1946-1964 in circulated grades. Over 12 million of the lowest-mintage 1955 Philadelphia dime were struck, and it commands little or no premium.
My specialty series. Agree 100% any date available in circulated grades, even up to ms66fb. Now ms67fb and higher, alot are single digit pops. Conditional rarities if you will.
I put together a set of ms65fb in under a month. ms66fb, maybe 2 months to complete. ms67fb 3 1/2 years. Some date & mm top pops are 67+fb.
@SimonW said:
Every series has a key date, by definition. Key date is the date that is the "key" to finishing the set. It's the coin that is the most focused on because it's hardest to get, usually because it's the rarest, but not always. It doesn't necessarily translate to absolute rarity.
There are some series that have no "hard to get" coins, such as silver Roosevelt dimes 1946-1964 in circulated grades. Over 12 million of the lowest-mintage 1955 Philadelphia dime were struck, and it commands little or no premium.
My specialty series. Agree 100% any date available in circulated grades, even up to ms66fb. Now ms67fb and higher, alot are single digit pops. Conditional rarities if you will.
I put together a set of ms65fb in under a month. ms66fb, maybe 2 months to complete. ms67fb 3 1/2 years. Some date & mm top pops are 67+fb.
Sometimes a collector will raise the ceiling on the strike/details and the luster on a coin. And search for those coins that were struck from the very first hubs and dies. Uncirculated coins that resemble proof coins with prooflike surfaces and with very-early-die-state (VEDS) strikes/details to the point when lathe lines in the fields and/or peripherals are present. Locating a PL-EDS example from a US Mint branch like Denver can be a very exciting and rewarding experience! And you learn you can't go any higher in quality! But yet, failing to meet those standards throughout the collection with every date. The coins with the greatest amount of luster are PL! These are the coins from the modern age of coinage most collectors will never own or see b/c they never learned what to search for.
Here's a VEDS-PL 1939 Jefferson nickel. There's nothing else out there like it, not to my knowledge.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@ctf_error_coins said:
I have many, many extremely rare unique coins and none of them are key dates.
My coins are way, way more rare than key date coins, and way less expensive in the marketplace which make zero sense to me.
I don't know why that doesn't make sense to you. Price is determined by a combination of supply AND demand, not just supply.
I understand Demand.
Error coins are a thin field so yes there is less demand.
I am talking about absolute rarity ... so yes, I do not understand just why major error coins are not worth considerable more than the current market levels.
I went all in on major error coins when the mint cracked down in 2002 as the I foresaw the supply of new major error coins being released as substantially reduced which panned out to be true.
That's because you don't understand collector motivation. Errors (the coins you sell) have a below average buyer preference in US coinage. That's what shows up in demand and it's evident in the Heritage archives.
There are very few collectors (proportionately) who pay "high prices" just because it is rare, especially for a narrow rarity.
If this were not true, then they would pay a lot more for world type and "key" dates or obscure ancients which are scarcer versus higher preferred more common US coinage.
Most US errors are post-1964 (US moderns) where the coin generically has a very low preference.
The few errors from higher preference US type (like the IHC on a QE planchet) are not cheap but these coins don't fit into most collector's definition of a set or series.
@Aspie_Rocco said:
I think it really depends on a personal definition of key date. A lot of descriptions are used for rare and key coins.
I think of a key date only as a low mintage issued coin in a series. For example, in Jefferson nickels 1939 D , 42 D, and tentatively 1950 d are the main KEY DATES of the series.
When you talk about RARITIES it is another subject to me. Like a 1941 s/s 501 or 1941 d/d 501… there are around less than 10 of each known. R7 territory. They makes them very rare for the series but still not an actual key date.
One of those in low grade has a list price of around $40 but since it is practically unobtainable you cannot even try to buy one for under $400.
Last year I traded with the #1 nickel variety guy, I gave up an XF 1941d/d fs501 valued at $40 in exchange for a F15 valued at $7 AND received $400 on top of the trade. There are only 5-6 of these coins graded in total. List price is a hilarious joke for this variety, but I would still never call it an actual “key date”
In conclusion, for me at least, there is a clear difference between “Key” and “rare” or “scarce”. Key for me is lower or lowest mintage in any given series. For some series a key will be a key while simultaneously being exceptionally rare also.
Late to this thread but your post is as good as any to respond to.
Rarity and scarcity can only be measured relatively. Most will agree that a coin with a very low number (in any grade) is rare, but no coin which can be bought on demand or short notice can logically be considered rare.
"Key" date in modern US collecting seems to mean lowest mintage or most expensive in a series, not usually scarce and virtually never rare. It's mostly marketing or exaggeration. There is nothing actually "key" about any coin which can be bought (practically) any time. Anyone who has the money can complete any 20th century US series in "high quality" except Indian Head Eagles and Saints in one day. Maybe all Barber series and probably a few earlier ones too. No one chooses to do it for obvious reasons but it's doable.
My subjective definition of "key" date is how it was used in 1960's US collecting. In the context of collecting mostly at FV out of circulating change where the coin was difficult or never found, the concept made sense. In this context, it was "scarce", or "rare" or at least hard to find.
In some series, the concept of "key" date makes no sense either because a majority or abnormal pct. are scarce or hard to buy. There are more "key" dates for the 1813-1834 half eagle vs. non-key, as it makes no sense to consider hardly any not key since most are at least somewhat hard to buy with fewer than 100 estimated known.
It's different for my primary series (non-US), but the majority of the 86 coins from one mint are also "key" by US standards. Some of it is the much lower price level but mostly, the coins are just that much scarcer.
@ctf_error_coins said:
I have many, many extremely rare unique coins and none of them are key dates.
My coins are way, way more rare than key date coins, and way less expensive in the marketplace which make zero sense to me.
That's because you don't understand collector motivation. Errors (the coins you sell) have a below average buyer (notice I didn't just say collector preference) in US coinage.
There are very few collectors (proportionately) who prefer and buy coins just because it is rare, especially for a narrow rarity (errors, another specialization, or even some TPG grade depending upon the coin.> @ctf_error_coins said:
So much wrong with the above statement.
I understand collector motivation, true rarity and pricing.
Enjoy your evening.
Then it's just reality contrary to your personal preference. It's one or the other because there is no third option.
Comments
Show us a published definition from **any **respected source that defines a "market maker" the way YOU describe your business model. I don't think you'll be able to do so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That is not the definition of "market maker"...
You're being too academic. 😀
I honestly could care less of what your definition is.
I know what I have and how to run a very successful full time coin business all on my own.
Today is another Wonderfull day
Tag teaming again I see.
The grumpiness is palpable this am.
One key coin that proves demand is king is the 1856 flying eagle. In order for the pricing to stay where it is, (which is ridiculous) through pre and post web, the demand must be off the scale. Talk about over-hype!
I didn't offer a definition for you to care or care less about. And no one questioned whether you know how to run a successful business on your own. Why would anyone bother to question it, when you already repeatedly brag about it?
Some of us merely called you on your false claim that you're a "market maker". I don't know whether you actually mistakenly think you are one, or if you know better, but prefer to pretend that you are. Either way, enjoy your wonderful day, but please stop with the "market maker" bologna.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
But it's close to the opposite of one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It is not a false claim.
You are wrong again.
@SilverEagle1974 I'd bet you never thought the discussion would evolve into this did you?
Frankly, I deal in those things and I never actually refer to myself as a market maker. But the truth is that if a dealer in such things refers to himself as a marketmaker, or if someone else describes him that way, I know exactly what he means, even if it wasn't the ideal choice of words. And like I said before, it means that he's always in the market to buy or sell whatever he can, at realistic prices. At least that's been my experience.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
So, if I am looking for a specific grade of AU58 for an Everyman collection, then I am ignoring all other grades of that date and mint (in this case New Orleans). For example, this 1896-O Barber Half in PCGS AU58 CAC has a population of 8 (pop of 2 with CAC sticker... this coin and the beautifully toned "Property of a Lady" PCGS AU58 - note targeting PCGS-graded here) and is "less than 10" in this narrow context. In reality, there are many more extant of the 1896-O half dollar. So not rare (there are more than 10). As Mark F. states, this speaks to demand and not necessarily rarity when considering this New Orleans issue half dollar. (Using this post to provide an example). The context is related to your collecting target and what is acceptable to satisfy that target.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
LOL. Ok, Guy. 1870 proof has 10-12 known. 1877 has 6-10 known. 1880 has 8-12 know. But wait -
1871 - has 12-14 known.
1872 has 14-48 known.
1873 - 12-15 known.
1874 - 6-10 known.
1875 - 10-12 known.
1876 -18-22 known.
1878 - 10-12 known.
1879 - 10-12 known.
1881 - 10-12 known.
1882 - 10-15 known... and on and on it goes.
Yours are not "key dates" they are just the proofs your friend hasn't yet found in a near impossible proof set of ALL key dates.
A holed 1901-S quarter is probably the rarest type of 1901-S.
Every series has a key date, by definition. Key date is the date that is the "key" to finishing the set. It's the coin that is the most focused on because it's hardest to get, usually because it's the rarest, but not always. It doesn't necessarily translate to absolute rarity.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Fats Waller had a Handful of Keys...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I think a coin is rare when you can't simply go out and buy one anytime, but have to wait a year or more for the coin to come on the market. I don't view keys or even conventionally classic US rarities as "rare" because they show up at auction more than once a year. For example, a quick check of eBay shows 4 1909-S VDB cents in MS65 red, with one being CAC'd. What's rare about that? There are 6 1797 half dollars on eBay now. But there's no 1802 half dimes and I don't see them at auction frequently - that to me is a rare coin.
Key date = difficult to find / not frequently at auction or for sale. Price not necessarily prohibitive. - 1844 $10, 1860-S quarter. 1850-52 / 1855-S & 1857-S Halves.
Key date = Relatively "rare". Coin is readily available - price to acquire is out of the budget or financial means of the set builder - 1909-S VDB, 1916-D Merc, 1916 Quarter, 1913-S quarter, 1893-S Morgan.
Key date - objectively rare and price prohibitive - 1878-S Seated Half, 1873 & 1875 $10.
Key date - Coin is difficult to find for sale in certain grade range and with good to superb eye appeal. - 1896-O, 1897-O AU50-58 Barber Halves, 1921-P, D, S AU53-58 Walking Liberty halves.... - add another 500 different date / mintmarks to the list.
This is how I think about it at least.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen coins labeled as conditional rarities, Couldn't there also be conditional key dates too ? With coins that are not actually rare but are in certain grades. I won't ID the coin but I could buy the date in ms66
at any time but only 3 offered in ms67 over 2 1/2 years in ms67. Total pop of 9 in ms67.
I wouldn’t call an 1886-O Morgan a key date, but I would call it a key date to a set of gem Morgans. Anyway , there are no rules about this stuff. Just a matter of trying to be clear.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I don't think we could ever have a conversation IRL. There are far too many words that we define so differently as to be mutually incomprehensible.
Say what?
This. Key date isn't the same as rare.
Maybe OP wanted to confirm that there ARE key date coins that came out of the New Orleans mint?
A 1901-S Barber Quarter in AU comes to mind. Beyond that key, others find themselves in a similar situation like the 1909-O quarter in AU or a lower mintage 1899-S quarter you can find regularly but non-Details VF? difficult. CoinFacts POP can back your thinking uo to some degree. Agree.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
...
fixed it so I can agree with your assessment and change the definition.
At that point in the discussion we were only debating the definition of "market maker" and DEVOLVE is surely a better word for it, but we're past that point now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bXEHGUvVrA
There are some series that have no "hard to get" coins, such as silver Roosevelt dimes 1946-1964 in circulated grades. Over 12 million of the lowest-mintage 1955 Philadelphia dime were struck, and it commands little or no premium.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Yet you will see people refer to the 55 (PDS) or 49-S as "key" or "semi-key" dates.
Also, "hardest to get" doesn't have to mean it's "hard to get". An S-VDB is the "hardest to get" in the series, but it's very easy to get. You could buy a dozen of them before breakfast.
....> @jmlanzaf said:
That may be true, although after 14 years in a B&M. (and that's not long), nearly every cent collector who's come in the shop still needs an S-VDB, a '14-D, '22 Plain, '31-S for his/her "Whitman folder". And so "if you had the money " , you could buy anything. But maybe riches are "rare" for a vast majority. Sometimes, I think we (collectively here) are insulated and sheltered to think " in the boxes' some of us think out of. So are there "keys" , or aren't there ?
I was never talking scarce or rare and I'm not sure the OP was, or is either.
Speaking of having the money...I manage a small retail cellphone shop, and every week one of my small pleasures is to go through a few rolls of quarters and I pull out what interests me. Yesterday I found a 1973 (not even sure which mint). Uncirculated, looked like the day it was made, even though it came in a mixed roll. Who knows how it got there?
It got me thinking, that was a key date in my life. I had just finished my sophomore summer after loosing a best friend. I'd just gotten my drivers license, school was starting, Angie by the Rolling Stones was on the radio every day, and I was starting a new job at a cheese factory. Friday night football games, crisp cool Saturday mornings, and Husker games on the radio in the afternoon. Ah, memories how they linger.
I had a mylar flip at the store, so I put it right out there front and center on display with a gold background, being that 1973 was 50 years ago. I plan to enjoy that key date coin being there, and the way it makes me feel when I see it.
I put together a set of ms65fb in under a month. ms66fb, maybe 2 months to complete. ms67fb 3 1/2 years. Some date & mm top pops are 67+fb.
Sometimes a collector will raise the ceiling on the strike/details and the luster on a coin. And search for those coins that were struck from the very first hubs and dies. Uncirculated coins that resemble proof coins with prooflike surfaces and with very-early-die-state (VEDS) strikes/details to the point when lathe lines in the fields and/or peripherals are present. Locating a PL-EDS example from a US Mint branch like Denver can be a very exciting and rewarding experience! And you learn you can't go any higher in quality! But yet, failing to meet those standards throughout the collection with every date. The coins with the greatest amount of luster are PL! These are the coins from the modern age of coinage most collectors will never own or see b/c they never learned what to search for.
Here's a VEDS-PL 1939 Jefferson nickel. There's nothing else out there like it, not to my knowledge.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
That's because you don't understand collector motivation. Errors (the coins you sell) have a below average buyer preference in US coinage. That's what shows up in demand and it's evident in the Heritage archives.
There are very few collectors (proportionately) who pay "high prices" just because it is rare, especially for a narrow rarity.
If this were not true, then they would pay a lot more for world type and "key" dates or obscure ancients which are scarcer versus higher preferred more common US coinage.
Most US errors are post-1964 (US moderns) where the coin generically has a very low preference.
The few errors from higher preference US type (like the IHC on a QE planchet) are not cheap but these coins don't fit into most collector's definition of a set or series.
So much wrong with the above statement.
I understand collector motivation, true rarity and pricing.
Enjoy your evening.
Late to this thread but your post is as good as any to respond to.
Rarity and scarcity can only be measured relatively. Most will agree that a coin with a very low number (in any grade) is rare, but no coin which can be bought on demand or short notice can logically be considered rare.
"Key" date in modern US collecting seems to mean lowest mintage or most expensive in a series, not usually scarce and virtually never rare. It's mostly marketing or exaggeration. There is nothing actually "key" about any coin which can be bought (practically) any time. Anyone who has the money can complete any 20th century US series in "high quality" except Indian Head Eagles and Saints in one day. Maybe all Barber series and probably a few earlier ones too. No one chooses to do it for obvious reasons but it's doable.
My subjective definition of "key" date is how it was used in 1960's US collecting. In the context of collecting mostly at FV out of circulating change where the coin was difficult or never found, the concept made sense. In this context, it was "scarce", or "rare" or at least hard to find.
In some series, the concept of "key" date makes no sense either because a majority or abnormal pct. are scarce or hard to buy. There are more "key" dates for the 1813-1834 half eagle vs. non-key, as it makes no sense to consider hardly any not key since most are at least somewhat hard to buy with fewer than 100 estimated known.
It's different for my primary series (non-US), but the majority of the 86 coins from one mint are also "key" by US standards. Some of it is the much lower price level but mostly, the coins are just that much scarcer.
That's because you don't understand collector motivation. Errors (the coins you sell) have a below average buyer (notice I didn't just say collector preference) in US coinage.
There are very few collectors (proportionately) who prefer and buy coins just because it is rare, especially for a narrow rarity (errors, another specialization, or even some TPG grade depending upon the coin.> @ctf_error_coins said:
Then it's just reality contrary to your personal preference. It's one or the other because there is no third option.
Oh, I took NO to be "New Orleans" key date coins then I go make a comment on the 1896-O Barber Half Dollar! for Everyman... oops
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.