Is it true there are NO key date coins ?
SilverEagle1974
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Is it true there are NO key date coins ?
There are coins that are widely hunted which makes them appear to be a key date.
Chris
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How do you define "key-date coin"?
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Double negative aside, what you might be trying to say is that many "Key date" coins are not rare. That IS true. 1909SVDB cents, 1916-D dimes, for example, are quite common but are also key date coins. You can buy 10 of them in just about any grade in about 10 minutes.
On the other hand, an 1894-S dime is both a key date and extremely rare. You might have to wait years to buy one.
There are a handful of truly rare US coins, but most of them are not in popular collected series.
Most scarce dates are available in some kind of condition, but could be undesirable except as hole fillers. I think most “key” dates are actually condition rarities. To the collectors they seem rare because they are searching for a scarce coin, but in a particular grade in a particular holder at a certain price point.
Find 1796 and 1797 half dollars, then come back and share your experience!
If you think “there are only a handful of truly rare U.S. coins” then your definition of “truly rare” is the strictest I’ve heard of. How few known examples of a particular coin do there need to be for you to consider it “truly rare”? Fewer than 10? 5? 3?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Along the lines of the aforementioned 1894S dime….like R7ish.
And how would you define it?
is it not true, that I am not having a very hard time, not figuring out, what the OP is not saying?
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Perhaps it is all a matter of perspective. I have a long list of key date coins. just not going to share that list with anyone. James
I’m not sure how I’d define “truly rare” but my number would certainly be greater than 10. And even using your own example of 1894-S dimes would constitute more than a “handful”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I always considered the concept of a "key" date as going back to the 50s and 60s, when an album could be mostly put together from circulation. The holes that were always empty were the "key" dates that had to be purchased to complete the book.
So your definition of truly rare might be as high as 20, 30, or more? If so, then that certainly differs from my opinion.
I'm sure many of our darkside friends would disagree. I think the primary reason for thinking that a coin that has dozens or even hundreds of examples is even a little rare is because the demand for those coins is so high that it creates scarcity. Particularly for many common US issues.
I do think that true rarity is something like a dozen or fewer examples. I would also think that the vast majority of those rarities are rare die varieties rather than just rare type. I acknowledge that my thinking is likely heavily influenced by my primary collection which can turn scarce or slightly tough coins into rarities by virtue of being chopmarked.
I can't believe that I get to have an honest disagreement with Mark! Made my weekend!
What are considered key changes.
For most of high-end US Numismatics, collectors were concerned with Philadelphia issues, often only proof issues, and mintages. Heaton's treatise changed that, as branch mints were given serious consideration, and that was very late in the 19th Century. As collecting bled into the masses in the mid-20th Century, extant populations became more important (for some, but still not all) than mintages. demand/supply was an issue with the surge of collector numbers.
More recently, die varieties and even die stages have arose to separate the common from the rare. The Old Guard often dismisses such changes. Remember seeing old lofty collections hit the auctions, as late at the early 90s, still mostly being proofs (and often still raw). While Sheldon copper was accepted, VAMs were scoffed at for the longest time as flashes in the pan. It evolves with available information. Still, old-time mintage keys remain at unjustified premiums, when demand/supply is considered.
Yes, my definition might be 20 or more.
Curiously, how do you distinguish “truly rare” from “rare”?
And again, even using your own example of 1894-S dimes as coins that would qualify, the number is more than your initial “only a handful of truly rare coins”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have many, many extremely rare unique coins and none of them are key dates.
My coins are way, way more rare than key date coins, and way less expensive in the marketplace which make zero sense to me.
@MFeld said:
** Yes, my definition might be 20 or more.
Curiously, how do you distinguish “truly rare” from “rare”?**
Previously, I stated truly rare would be R7ish.
Yes that’s a little vague, but I’m a proponent of the Sheldon scale:
I’ve never really adopted the Universal Rarity Scale, but for the purposes of this discussion, I’d call URS-5 or lower truly rare:
So, key date coins are usually the hardest to acquire compared to the rest of the coin series. (by the first quote)
But, key date coins are NOT necessary rare, low mintage coins. (by the second quote)
Chris
Since the (modified) Sheldon scale was brought into this, which is what I use, I consider RARE starting at low R5 (75 known examples, or less).
For a little followed series, 75 coins extant might not be too big a deal. For a popular or highly desirable series, 75 coins can get into some expensive competition and really long waits for any better examples.
TRUELY RARE? Okay, I'll bite. Put me in the R6+ camp. Less than 20 known. Still might be enough for something esoteric. Could become almost unobtainable for something popular.
The 94-S Dime is really not collectible IMO, except to a very few, with very deep pockets. It is an absolute rarity, and the demand to own one has remained high, hence a very high cost of entry.
Regrading the comment on unique error coins, very low mintage patterns, etc ... they may indeed be absolute rarities, but they do not all have the same broad following. Hence, they often appear to be relative bargains if considering rarity alone.
However, price is a function of demand more than it is of supply.
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I used to try to pin “rare” down to a specific number known, but at this point I think of “rare” as “if I miss out on the one that just showed up on the auction block or dealer inventory, it’ll be a long time before I see another”.
I would call quite a few of the very early half dime issues “rare” - how often do you see an 1803 Small 8 or 1805 offered for sale?
Whether this coin/stamp combination is a distinct “issue” is debatable, but I know I will probably never see another offered for sale.
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Key date (Merriam Webster): a coin that is the rarest or otherwise most difficult of its series to obtain.
The term "key date" is relative. Relative to what? Well... the other dates in the series. To say the 1909 S VDB is a key date to the series would be true because it is one of the lowest minted and hardest to obtain in that particular series. Saying the 1909 S VDB is a key date compared to the 1894 S dime and all other US coins would not be within the definition of a key date.
To answer the original question, are there key dates? Yes, there currently is and there always will be. General rarity has nothing to do with it.
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I don't know why that doesn't make sense to you. Price is determined by a combination of supply AND demand, not just supply.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Even a URS-5 or lower is more than a "handful of truly rare coins". That is, unless you have freakishly large hands and/or a lot more than 5 fingers on each, with which to count.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I understand Demand.
Error coins are a thin field so yes there is less demand.
I am talking about absolute rarity ... so yes, I do not understand just why major error coins are not worth considerable more than the current market levels.
I went all in on major error coins when the mint cracked down in 2002 as the I foresaw the supply of new major error coins being released as substantially reduced which panned out to be true.
How many have a 1955 Double Die which is super cool?
How many have the super rare 1955 major (45%) clip in MS?
The rarer coin has a market value that is a fraction of the more common coin
That’s cool, especially seeing that 3/4 holder prongs still holds the cent in place!
I think it really depends on a personal definition of key date. A lot of descriptions are used for rare and key coins.
I think of a key date only as a low mintage issued coin in a series. For example, in Jefferson nickels 1939 D , 42 D, and tentatively 1950 d are the main KEY DATES of the series.
When you talk about RARITIES it is another subject to me. Like a 1941 s/s 501 or 1941 d/d 501… there are around less than 10 of each known. R7 territory. They makes them very rare for the series but still not an actual key date.
One of those in low grade has a list price of around $40 but since it is practically unobtainable you cannot even try to buy one for under $400.
Last year I traded with the #1 nickel variety guy, I gave up an XF 1941d/d fs501 valued at $40 in exchange for a F15 valued at $7 AND received $400 on top of the trade. There are only 5-6 of these coins graded in total. List price is a hilarious joke for this variety, but I would still never call it an actual “key date”
In conclusion, for me at least, there is a clear difference between “Key” and “rare” or “scarce”. Key for me is lower or lowest mintage in any given series. For some series a key will be a key while simultaneously being exceptionally rare also.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Combination of rarity and popularity.
I’m glad that your weekend had been made.😉
If you or anyone else feels up to it, please let me know which of these coins you don’t consider to be truly rare:
1804 $1's
1894'S dimes
1913 Liberty nickels
1907 Ultra High Relief $20’s
1822 $5's
1861 Paquet $20's
1855 Proof $3’s
1933 $20’s
1849 Proof $20’s
1804 Proof $10's
1854-S $5’s
Brasher Doubloons
1821 Proof $5's
1829 Proof $5’s
1927 -D $20’s
1825 Proof $5's
1870-S Half Dime
1870-S $3
1870-S $1
1873-CC 10c
1834 Proof $5’s
1873-CC 25c
1943-D bronze cents
1943-S bronze cents
1884 Trade $1’s
1885 Trade $1’s
1855-S $3
1824 Proof $2.50’s
1839 Proof $10’s
1831 Proof $2.50’s
1837 Proof $2.50’s
1835 Proof $2.50’s
1833 Proof $5’s
1838-O Proof 50c
1854 T-1Proof G$1
1854 Proof $2.50’s
1858 Proof $10’s
1843 Proof $10’s
1859 Proof $10’s
1822 Proof dimes
1833 Proof $2.50’s
1836 Proof $2.50’s
1838 Proof $2.50’s
1834 Proof $2.50’s
1845 Proof $2.50’s
1855 Proof G$1
The above list isn’t exhaustive (as I’ve omitted various Proof silver bust coins, and some other Proof gold coins, among others). But I believe I’ve made my point that there are quite a few truly rare U.S. coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Rare coins are the ones I can’t afford
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The PCGS population report and price guide are very often not in proportion. The popularity among the collecting public plays a major role. I have several pieces in my collection which are considered major varieties and for which there are very few higher grade examples but carry a price guide value much lower than coins for which there are orders of magnitude more available.
I would like to think that the low population should make the coin key because if it ever became important for a complete collection then very few folks would be able to find one, but I would be wrong thinking that.
The clipped coin keeps falling out of my Whitman folder.
Arguably, every coin is unique. Try to build a set of contemporary holed bust halves with the holes exactly at 12:00
I dare you to build a set of trimes used as buttons with two holes at exactly 3 and 9, respectively.
I like 55 doubled die cents. Your curved clip doesn't interest me.
Well, we see at least 50 1943 PDS bronze cents in this forum every year.
A more interesting question might be which of those coins counts as a "key date".
But I didn’t list a 1943 (Philadelphia issue) bronze cent, much less, a 1943 bronze “verb”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Damn autocorrect.
Is not a 1943-S cent also a 1943 cent? Or do you not believe in year sets of coins?
Damn verbs.😀
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's hard to collect verbs around here. There's not a lot of action. Thank the gods for verbs of being.
A key date is the (or one of the) rarest coins in whatever set you’re talking about. So if we’re discussing the entire US series by date and mintmark, the 1804 Dollar is a key date. But if we’re discussing a set of proof Bust Dollars by date, the 1804 is the most common date, not a key, and the 1801 is the key. Got it?
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There are LOTS of "key date" coins, by any rational definition. But few of them are truly rare. But not being "rare" does not mean "not expensive," since market price is a function of both supply and demand. So, e.g., the 1916-D Mercury dime, not "rare" by any rational standards, is, by far, the most expensive regular issue Mercury dime (and far more expensive than the popular 1942/1 overdates); so a "key date" by any rational standard.
I saw my first 1955 Double Die at the LCS this afternoon. 🙂
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IMO, the 1955 DDO is a "key date" only because the album manufacturers include a slot for it (also IMO, albums should be only for regular issue coins, without exotic varieties). That said, I think the 1955 DDO Lincoln cent is a remarkably cool thing to gaze at (regardless of its status as a "key date")!
I can't believe that there is anyone on this forum who honestly fails to understand @MFeld 's point, but permit me to use an example from the PSA side. THE most desired baseball card is the T-206 Honus Wagner, and it's not really close. Our hosts appear to have graded 17 of that card, though it's hard to tell because there are so many different ways that set is listed. There are at least 1000 cards made this year alone that are unique, and effectively worthless. And everyone understands this. I could make the same case for the Upper Deck Griffey rookie of which PSA has graded 100,000, and in any grade is worth more than a lot of 1/1s from this year alone.
Rarity in practical terms is equal to demand over supply. It represents the intensity of competition. It's an "If a tree falls in the woods..." sort of thing. Any discussion of actual numbers of items is essentially irrelevant without knowing the demand for this item.
(My a priori thinking documented, now I'll read the rest of this thread)
It's true that there are NO key date coins..... in a lot of collections. That's true.
I don't think that's a good definition. So if there's a million of them but 1.1 million people that want them, they are "rare"?
By your definition, houses are "rare" because there's at least one person who wants one that doesn't have one.
P> @jmlanzaf said:
I agree. That definition spoke to availability, based on supply and demand, not rarity. If there are X number of a given coin in existence, the coin doesn’t become more or less rare, just because demand fluctuates.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
When I see the amount of migration taking place, and the homelessness in many cities, I'm thinking houses are rare. So let's get back to "no keys".