Draped Bust Dollar - Potential Grade?

spyglassdesign · July 12, 2023 4:06PM

Based on my images, what would you grade it? I am considering sending in to PCGS. It's currently in an off-brand holder, however seeing so few samples to compare against in the graded library makes it tough. I realize it's probably been cleaned or some such as most of these do seem to be damaged.

Thanks!

MFeld · July 12, 2023 4:15PM

VF details, cleaned (or polished)

fluffy155 · July 12, 2023 4:16PM

Agree, VF polished.

Omegaraptor · July 12, 2023 4:21PM

It has the sharpness of a VF but it has been polished. I also notice some pitting on the surfaces - which makes me think the polishing was also an attempt to remove corrosion.

BustDMs · July 12, 2023 4:34PM

Don’t waste your money.

TomB · July 12, 2023 5:11PM

I think it has been cleaned and polished and has had a hole repaired, as well. Look at the field directly in front of the portrait of Ms. Liberty forehead and eye area and see how unusual it looks and then look at the area on the reverse between the wing and the olive branches. I hope you didn't think this coin was a good candidate for a straight grade at PCGS.

spyglassdesign · July 12, 2023 5:12PM

@TomB said:
I think it has been cleaned and polished and has had a hole repaired, as well. Look at the field directly in front of the portrait of Ms. Liberty forehead and eye area and see how unusual it looks and then look at the area on the reverse between the wing and the olive branches. I hope you didn't think this coin was a good candidate for a straight grade at PCGS.

No, I know it won't straight grade, since I stated it was likely cleaned... was more curious about the condition otherwise as there isn't a ton of samples to compare to.

Kliao · July 12, 2023 6:39PM

VF polished as others have said.

DoctorPaper · July 12, 2023 7:07PM

Here’s a close one in condition:

alefzero · July 12, 2023 10:03PM

classic VF Details

ricko · July 13, 2023 8:51AM

Keep looking.... That is a details coin... Hold out for a straight graded specimen. Cheers, RickO

DoctorPaper · July 13, 2023 1:58PM

@ricko said
“That is a details coin…Hold out…”
Certainly agree on that one, polished and repaired.
But even a details coin can have some allure if the price is right.

Here’s a VF details dollar I picked up last year because I liked its look and the price was right.
I was also hopeful I could figure out the enigmatic grafitto, perhaps being able to attribute the coin to a famous person or place, but I haven’t been successful at that as yet.
Incidentally, this is the so-called “Apostrophe” type 1799 dollar, named for the die defect after the final “S” in ‘STATES’ on the reverse.

spyglassdesign · July 13, 2023 2:19PM

@DoctorPaper said:
@ricko said
“That is a details coin…Hold out…”
Certainly agree on that one, polished and repaired.
But even a details coin can have some allure if the price is right.

Here’s a VF details dollar I picked up last year because I liked its look and the price was right.
I was also hopeful I could figure out the enigmatic grafitto, perhaps being able to attribute the coin to a famous person or place, but I haven’t been successful at that as yet.
Incidentally, this is the so-called “Apostrophe” type 1799 dollar, named for the die defect after the final “S” in ‘STATES’ on the reverse.

Yeah I've seen even damaged and detailed coins of this era still fetch a pretty penny, and it seems most of what remains are damaged in some way.

That is a neat coin and inscription, thanks for sharing!

PerryHall · July 13, 2023 2:31PM

That's the type of coin that I wouldn't mind owning if it were cheap enough---it's big, it's silver, and it's really old. I would store it in a kraft paper envelope and handle it frequently with my dirty unwashed hands to get some toning on it. It'll still be cleaned but at least it would look more natural over time. Don't waste your money getting it slabbed. This is the type of coin that you won't be afraid to handle.

kaz · July 13, 2023 5:50PM

@PerryHall said:
That's the type of coin that I wouldn't mind owning if it were cheap enough---it's big, it's silver, and it's really old. I would store it in a kraft paper envelope and handle it frequently with my dirty unwashed hands to get some toning on it. It'll still be cleaned but at least it would look more natural over time. Don't waste your money getting it slabbed. This is the type of coin that you won't be afraid to handle.

I agree. I bought this one on eBay many years ago, it's been polished and I put it away in brown paper. Has retoned some and is fun to handle.

291fifth · July 13, 2023 7:23PM

Heavily polished surfaces, possibly designed to hide defects such as the possible hole previously mentioned by TomB or perhaps designed to lessen the depth of scratches on Liberty's face. Pass unless it is very, very cheap.

jayPem · July 13, 2023 7:44PM

$600

PerryHall · July 14, 2023 1:58AM

@TomB said:
I think it has been cleaned and polished and has had a hole repaired, as well. Look at the field directly in front of the portrait of Ms. Liberty forehead and eye area and see how unusual it looks and then look at the area on the reverse between the wing and the olive branches. I hope you didn't think this coin was a good candidate for a straight grade at PCGS.

I see no evidence of a hole having been drilled where you describe. Normally a hole would be drilled near the edge at the 12:00 position rather than in the field far from the edge. Also, there is no evidence of a hole on the reverse side of the coin in the wing area. This coin has issues but a plugged hole isn't one of them.

291fifth · July 14, 2023 2:11AM

The fact that the possible hole is not near the edge does not preclude a hole. The coin may have once been nailed to the main beam of a barn during construction. This was a common practice at one time. When recovered much later to hole may have been skillfully plugged and then polished to hide the repair. It is still a coin that many collectors would want, even with its faults.

PerryHall · July 14, 2023 3:32AM

@291fifth said:
The fact that the possible hole is not near the edge does not preclude a hole. The coin may have once been nailed to the main beam of a barn during construction. This was a common practice at one time. When recovered much later to hole may have been skillfully plugged and then polished to hide the repair. It is still a coin that many collectors would want, even with its faults.

Usually, silver dollars aren't nailed to the beam in a barn. More likely it would be a large cent. I still don't see any evidence of a hole especially anywhere on the reverse side of the coin. There may have been damage there that was smoothed over though.

291fifth · July 14, 2023 6:58AM

@PerryHall said:

@291fifth said:
The fact that the possible hole is not near the edge does not preclude a hole. The coin may have once been nailed to the main beam of a barn during construction. This was a common practice at one time. When recovered much later to hole may have been skillfully plugged and then polished to hide the repair. It is still a coin that many collectors would want, even with its faults.

Usually, silver dollars aren't nailed to the beam in a barn. More likely it would be a large cent. I still don't see any evidence of a hole especially anywhere on the reverse side of the coin. There may have been damage there that was smoothed over though.

In about 1981 I was shown a relic from another family's barn that had remained in the family for almost 140 years at that time. It was a nearly uncirculated 1844 dollar with a clear square nail hole through it. It had been nailed to the main beam of the family's barn when it had been built.

Higashiyama · July 14, 2023 7:31AM

@PerryHall said “I see no evidence of a hole having been drilled where you describe. Normally a hole would be drilled near the edge at the 12:00 position rather than in the field far from the edge. Also, there is no evidence of a hole on the reverse side of the coin in the wing area. This coin has issues but a plugged hole isn't one of them.”

I think the evidence of a hole/plug is clear, exactly where @TomB describes (in front of Miss Liberty’s forehead, with even more prominent evidence on the corresponding reverse point just to the right of the shield.) The quality of the repair work is not too bad, and they may have reconstructed some of the design elements,

jayPem · July 14, 2023 1:49PM

TomB · July 14, 2023 2:26PM

@PerryHall said:

@TomB said:
I think it has been cleaned and polished and has had a hole repaired, as well. Look at the field directly in front of the portrait of Ms. Liberty forehead and eye area and see how unusual it looks and then look at the area on the reverse between the wing and the olive branches. I hope you didn't think this coin was a good candidate for a straight grade at PCGS.

I see no evidence of a hole having been drilled where you describe. Normally a hole would be drilled near the edge at the 12:00 position rather than in the field far from the edge. Also, there is no evidence of a hole on the reverse side of the coin in the wing area. This coin has issues but a plugged hole isn't one of them.

It's easier to illustrate it with images than simply to explain it in words. Look at the red oval placed on the obverse and reverse. They correspond to the same area of the coin and the obverse has an obviously smoothed appearance while the reverse appears lighter in color and looks to have been heavily worked on. The coin looks to have been holed and repaired.

PerryHall · July 14, 2023 5:55PM

Okay. You have me convinced there was a hole there that was repaired. It's still a neat coin for someone on a tight budget who wants a neat coin that's really old.

jayPem · July 14, 2023 7:09PM

I kind of like these old repairs.. here's one I posted awhile ago.
An assortment of these goofy repaired coins could complement my holed set.. 🤔

dhikewhitney · July 14, 2023 7:20PM

@BustDMs said:
Don’t waste your money.

Not a waste of money if genuine and priced low enough to offer value

DoctorPaper · July 14, 2023 8:49PM

Ok, since we’re talking about old, old damaged coins and their attractiveness vs. cost and value, here’s one I found at my local B&M store 30 years ago. Doofus #1 inscribed some type of script in front of Liberty’s face on a high grade ‘99 dollar and doofus #2 tried to buff it out. Doofus #3 (me) bought it at a deep discount for an AU coin of this type. I’d never be able to buy a straight graded coin at this level.
Lo and behold, careful examination reveals this to be an overstruck example with parts of a host coin underneath the overstruck version.
As @dhikewhitney states: these types of injured coins are not a waste of money if genuine and priced low enough to offer value.

jayPem · July 14, 2023 9:30PM

Very cool coin above!
Too bad doofus 2 came along.. it would be fantastic if the inscription was still in place 😩

As to the under type, it appears to be the same coin from the same dies..?
coin was restruck, either on purpose or accidentally?
Awesome!

DoctorPaper · July 14, 2023 10:20PM

@jayPem
There's not enough of the undertype visible to be sure if it’s from the same die, though I suspect it is. The two “99’s” do look identical, but there’s not much else to see..
I don’t see any doubling on the reverse, making me think the coin was ‘stuck’ on the reverse die, while the obverse shifted 30 degrees before a second strike. I believe in this era the dies were held in place by set screws which could loosen, allowed the dies to shift and rotate.

SoCalBigMark · July 15, 2023 1:27AM

My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.

spyglassdesign · July 15, 2023 11:55AM

@SoCalBigMark said:
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.

Bleach?! 😳

PerryHall · July 15, 2023 1:17PM

@spyglassdesign said:

@SoCalBigMark said:
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.

Bleach?! 😳

Bleach will tone down the shine and darken a silver coin to make it somewhat more natural in appearance but it's still considered to be AT.

spyglassdesign · July 15, 2023 1:52PM

@PerryHall said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@SoCalBigMark said:
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.

Bleach?! 😳

Bleach will tone down the shine and darken a silver coin to make it somewhat more natural in appearance but it's still considered to be AT.

Ah. Hadn't heard of that technique. Seems like it could be destructive to the surfaces being a chemical treatment?

PerryHall · July 15, 2023 2:10PM

@spyglassdesign said:

@PerryHall said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@SoCalBigMark said:
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.

Bleach?! 😳

Bleach will tone down the shine and darken a silver coin to make it somewhat more natural in appearance but it's still considered to be AT.

Ah. Hadn't heard of that technique. Seems like it could be destructive to the surfaces being a chemical treatment?

I've never tried this technique but I would imagine after you get the color that you want, you would rinse it well to remove any residual bleach to stop any further chemical reaction.

jayPem · July 15, 2023 6:31PM

@PerryHall said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@SoCalBigMark said:
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.

Bleach?! 😳

Bleach will tone down the shine and darken a silver coin to make it somewhat more natural in appearance but it's still considered to be AT.

I've got the perfect coin to try this on .. will try and report back.

rays · July 15, 2023 7:56PM

@kaz said:

@PerryHall said:
That's the type of coin that I wouldn't mind owning if it were cheap enough---it's big, it's silver, and it's really old. I would store it in a kraft paper envelope and handle it frequently with my dirty unwashed hands to get some toning on it. It'll still be cleaned but at least it would look more natural over time. Don't waste your money getting it slabbed. This is the type of coin that you won't be afraid to handle.

I agree. I bought this one on eBay many years ago, it's been polished and I put it away in brown paper. Has retoned some and is fun to handle.

I like this 1799, even if it has been previously polished. Any US Mint product from the 18th century holds a lot of interest in my book.

BustDMs · July 17, 2023 2:25PM

@dhikewhitney said:

@BustDMs said:
Don’t waste your money.

Not a waste of money if genuine and priced low enough to offer value

A waste of money to certify a coin that is OBVIOUSLY cleaned and will not get a straight grade. If the buyer can not tell it is not counterfeit they should not be buying the product anyway.

Just my opinion........

dcarr · July 17, 2023 4:38PM

@PerryHall said:

@TomB said:
I think it has been cleaned and polished and has had a hole repaired, as well. Look at the field directly in front of the portrait of Ms. Liberty forehead and eye area and see how unusual it looks and then look at the area on the reverse between the wing and the olive branches. I hope you didn't think this coin was a good candidate for a straight grade at PCGS.

I see no evidence of a hole having been drilled where you describe. Normally a hole would be drilled near the edge at the 12:00 position rather than in the field far from the edge. Also, there is no evidence of a hole on the reverse side of the coin in the wing area. This coin has issues but a plugged hole isn't one of them.

I think the coin, at one time, had a severe gash across Liberty's face. The gash was smoothed out ("tooled").

As for the apparent hole it is likely that there is a plug there, based on the reverse image.

Draped Bust Dollar - Potential Grade?

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