Draped Bust Dollar - Potential Grade?
spyglassdesign
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Based on my images, what would you grade it? I am considering sending in to PCGS. It's currently in an off-brand holder, however seeing so few samples to compare against in the graded library makes it tough. I realize it's probably been cleaned or some such as most of these do seem to be damaged.
Thanks!
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Comments
VF details, cleaned (or polished)
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agree, VF polished.
It has the sharpness of a VF but it has been polished. I also notice some pitting on the surfaces - which makes me think the polishing was also an attempt to remove corrosion.
"You can't get just one gun." "You can't get just one tattoo." "You can't get just one 1796 Draped Bust Large Cent."
Don’t waste your money.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
I think it has been cleaned and polished and has had a hole repaired, as well. Look at the field directly in front of the portrait of Ms. Liberty forehead and eye area and see how unusual it looks and then look at the area on the reverse between the wing and the olive branches. I hope you didn't think this coin was a good candidate for a straight grade at PCGS.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
No, I know it won't straight grade, since I stated it was likely cleaned... was more curious about the condition otherwise as there isn't a ton of samples to compare to.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
VF polished as others have said.
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Here’s a close one in condition:
classic VF Details
Keep looking.... That is a details coin... Hold out for a straight graded specimen. Cheers, RickO
@ricko said
“That is a details coin…Hold out…”
Certainly agree on that one, polished and repaired.
But even a details coin can have some allure if the price is right.
Here’s a VF details dollar I picked up last year because I liked its look and the price was right.
I was also hopeful I could figure out the enigmatic grafitto, perhaps being able to attribute the coin to a famous person or place, but I haven’t been successful at that as yet.
Incidentally, this is the so-called “Apostrophe” type 1799 dollar, named for the die defect after the final “S” in ‘STATES’ on the reverse.
Yeah I've seen even damaged and detailed coins of this era still fetch a pretty penny, and it seems most of what remains are damaged in some way.
That is a neat coin and inscription, thanks for sharing!
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
That's the type of coin that I wouldn't mind owning if it were cheap enough---it's big, it's silver, and it's really old. I would store it in a kraft paper envelope and handle it frequently with my dirty unwashed hands to get some toning on it. It'll still be cleaned but at least it would look more natural over time. Don't waste your money getting it slabbed. This is the type of coin that you won't be afraid to handle.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I agree. I bought this one on eBay many years ago, it's been polished and I put it away in brown paper. Has retoned some and is fun to handle.
Heavily polished surfaces, possibly designed to hide defects such as the possible hole previously mentioned by TomB or perhaps designed to lessen the depth of scratches on Liberty's face. Pass unless it is very, very cheap.
$600
I see no evidence of a hole having been drilled where you describe. Normally a hole would be drilled near the edge at the 12:00 position rather than in the field far from the edge. Also, there is no evidence of a hole on the reverse side of the coin in the wing area. This coin has issues but a plugged hole isn't one of them.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The fact that the possible hole is not near the edge does not preclude a hole. The coin may have once been nailed to the main beam of a barn during construction. This was a common practice at one time. When recovered much later to hole may have been skillfully plugged and then polished to hide the repair. It is still a coin that many collectors would want, even with its faults.
Usually, silver dollars aren't nailed to the beam in a barn. More likely it would be a large cent. I still don't see any evidence of a hole especially anywhere on the reverse side of the coin. There may have been damage there that was smoothed over though.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
In about 1981 I was shown a relic from another family's barn that had remained in the family for almost 140 years at that time. It was a nearly uncirculated 1844 dollar with a clear square nail hole through it. It had been nailed to the main beam of the family's barn when it had been built.
@PerryHall said “I see no evidence of a hole having been drilled where you describe. Normally a hole would be drilled near the edge at the 12:00 position rather than in the field far from the edge. Also, there is no evidence of a hole on the reverse side of the coin in the wing area. This coin has issues but a plugged hole isn't one of them.”
I think the evidence of a hole/plug is clear, exactly where @TomB describes (in front of Miss Liberty’s forehead, with even more prominent evidence on the corresponding reverse point just to the right of the shield.) The quality of the repair work is not too bad, and they may have reconstructed some of the design elements,
It's easier to illustrate it with images than simply to explain it in words. Look at the red oval placed on the obverse and reverse. They correspond to the same area of the coin and the obverse has an obviously smoothed appearance while the reverse appears lighter in color and looks to have been heavily worked on. The coin looks to have been holed and repaired.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Okay. You have me convinced there was a hole there that was repaired. It's still a neat coin for someone on a tight budget who wants a neat coin that's really old.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I kind of like these old repairs.. here's one I posted awhile ago.
An assortment of these goofy repaired coins could complement my holed set.. 🤔
Not a waste of money if genuine and priced low enough to offer value
Ok, since we’re talking about old, old damaged coins and their attractiveness vs. cost and value, here’s one I found at my local B&M store 30 years ago. Doofus #1 inscribed some type of script in front of Liberty’s face on a high grade ‘99 dollar and doofus #2 tried to buff it out. Doofus #3 (me) bought it at a deep discount for an AU coin of this type. I’d never be able to buy a straight graded coin at this level.
Lo and behold, careful examination reveals this to be an overstruck example with parts of a host coin underneath the overstruck version.
As @dhikewhitney states: these types of injured coins are not a waste of money if genuine and priced low enough to offer value.
Very cool coin above!
Too bad doofus 2 came along.. it would be fantastic if the inscription was still in place 😩
As to the under type, it appears to be the same coin from the same dies..?
coin was restruck, either on purpose or accidentally?
Awesome!
@jayPem
There's not enough of the undertype visible to be sure if it’s from the same die, though I suspect it is. The two “99’s” do look identical, but there’s not much else to see..
I don’t see any doubling on the reverse, making me think the coin was ‘stuck’ on the reverse die, while the obverse shifted 30 degrees before a second strike. I believe in this era the dies were held in place by set screws which could loosen, allowed the dies to shift and rotate.
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.
Bleach?! 😳
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Bleach will tone down the shine and darken a silver coin to make it somewhat more natural in appearance but it's still considered to be AT.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Ah. Hadn't heard of that technique. Seems like it could be destructive to the surfaces being a chemical treatment?
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
I've never tried this technique but I would imagine after you get the color that you want, you would rinse it well to remove any residual bleach to stop any further chemical reaction.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I've got the perfect coin to try this on .. will try and report back.
I like this 1799, even if it has been previously polished. Any US Mint product from the 18th century holds a lot of interest in my book.
A waste of money to certify a coin that is OBVIOUSLY cleaned and will not get a straight grade. If the buyer can not tell it is not counterfeit they should not be buying the product anyway.
Just my opinion........
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
I think the coin, at one time, had a severe gash across Liberty's face. The gash was smoothed out ("tooled").
As for the apparent hole it is likely that there is a plug there, based on the reverse image.