Draped Bust Dollar - Potential Grade?
Based on my images, what would you grade it? I am considering sending in to PCGS. It's currently in an off-brand holder, however seeing so few samples to compare against in the graded library makes it tough. I realize it's probably been cleaned or some such as most of these do seem to be damaged.
Thanks!
Comments
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VF details, cleaned (or polished)
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
18 -
Agree, VF polished.
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It has the sharpness of a VF but it has been polished. I also notice some pitting on the surfaces - which makes me think the polishing was also an attempt to remove corrosion.
"You can't get just one gun." "You can't get just one tattoo." "You can't get just one 1796 Draped Bust Large Cent."
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Donβt waste your money.
Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.3 -
I think it has been cleaned and polished and has had a hole repaired, as well. Look at the field directly in front of the portrait of Ms. Liberty forehead and eye area and see how unusual it looks and then look at the area on the reverse between the wing and the olive branches. I hope you didn't think this coin was a good candidate for a straight grade at PCGS.
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@TomB said:
I think it has been cleaned and polished and has had a hole repaired, as well. Look at the field directly in front of the portrait of Ms. Liberty forehead and eye area and see how unusual it looks and then look at the area on the reverse between the wing and the olive branches. I hope you didn't think this coin was a good candidate for a straight grade at PCGS.No, I know it won't straight grade, since I stated it was likely cleaned... was more curious about the condition otherwise as there isn't a ton of samples to compare to.
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VF polished as others have said.
Collector
Over 100 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 57 members and counting!
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Hereβs a close one in condition:
Wisconsin nationals: gotta love 'em....3 -
classic VF Details
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Keep looking.... That is a details coin... Hold out for a straight graded specimen. Cheers, RickO
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@ricko said
βThat is a details coinβ¦Hold outβ¦β
Certainly agree on that one, polished and repaired.
But even a details coin can have some allure if the price is right.Hereβs a VF details dollar I picked up last year because I liked its look and the price was right.
I was also hopeful I could figure out the enigmatic grafitto, perhaps being able to attribute the coin to a famous person or place, but I havenβt been successful at that as yet.
Incidentally, this is the so-called βApostropheβ type 1799 dollar, named for the die defect after the final βSβ in βSTATESβ on the reverse.
Wisconsin nationals: gotta love 'em....5 -
@DoctorPaper said:
@ricko said
βThat is a details coinβ¦Hold outβ¦β
Certainly agree on that one, polished and repaired.
But even a details coin can have some allure if the price is right.Hereβs a VF details dollar I picked up last year because I liked its look and the price was right.
I was also hopeful I could figure out the enigmatic grafitto, perhaps being able to attribute the coin to a famous person or place, but I havenβt been successful at that as yet.
Incidentally, this is the so-called βApostropheβ type 1799 dollar, named for the die defect after the final βSβ in βSTATESβ on the reverse.Yeah I've seen even damaged and detailed coins of this era still fetch a pretty penny, and it seems most of what remains are damaged in some way.
That is a neat coin and inscription, thanks for sharing!
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That's the type of coin that I wouldn't mind owning if it were cheap enough---it's big, it's silver, and it's really old. I would store it in a kraft paper envelope and handle it frequently with my dirty unwashed hands to get some toning on it. It'll still be cleaned but at least it would look more natural over time. Don't waste your money getting it slabbed. This is the type of coin that you won't be afraid to handle.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire2 -
@PerryHall said:
That's the type of coin that I wouldn't mind owning if it were cheap enough---it's big, it's silver, and it's really old. I would store it in a kraft paper envelope and handle it frequently with my dirty unwashed hands to get some toning on it. It'll still be cleaned but at least it would look more natural over time. Don't waste your money getting it slabbed. This is the type of coin that you won't be afraid to handle.I agree. I bought this one on eBay many years ago, it's been polished and I put it away in brown paper. Has retoned some and is fun to handle.
5 -
Heavily polished surfaces, possibly designed to hide defects such as the possible hole previously mentioned by TomB or perhaps designed to lessen the depth of scratches on Liberty's face. Pass unless it is very, very cheap.
All glory is fleeting.0 -
$600
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@TomB said:
I think it has been cleaned and polished and has had a hole repaired, as well. Look at the field directly in front of the portrait of Ms. Liberty forehead and eye area and see how unusual it looks and then look at the area on the reverse between the wing and the olive branches. I hope you didn't think this coin was a good candidate for a straight grade at PCGS.I see no evidence of a hole having been drilled where you describe. Normally a hole would be drilled near the edge at the 12:00 position rather than in the field far from the edge. Also, there is no evidence of a hole on the reverse side of the coin in the wing area. This coin has issues but a plugged hole isn't one of them.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire0 -
The fact that the possible hole is not near the edge does not preclude a hole. The coin may have once been nailed to the main beam of a barn during construction. This was a common practice at one time. When recovered much later to hole may have been skillfully plugged and then polished to hide the repair. It is still a coin that many collectors would want, even with its faults.
All glory is fleeting.0 -
@291fifth said:
The fact that the possible hole is not near the edge does not preclude a hole. The coin may have once been nailed to the main beam of a barn during construction. This was a common practice at one time. When recovered much later to hole may have been skillfully plugged and then polished to hide the repair. It is still a coin that many collectors would want, even with its faults.Usually, silver dollars aren't nailed to the beam in a barn. More likely it would be a large cent. I still don't see any evidence of a hole especially anywhere on the reverse side of the coin. There may have been damage there that was smoothed over though.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire0 -
@PerryHall said:
@291fifth said:
The fact that the possible hole is not near the edge does not preclude a hole. The coin may have once been nailed to the main beam of a barn during construction. This was a common practice at one time. When recovered much later to hole may have been skillfully plugged and then polished to hide the repair. It is still a coin that many collectors would want, even with its faults.Usually, silver dollars aren't nailed to the beam in a barn. More likely it would be a large cent. I still don't see any evidence of a hole especially anywhere on the reverse side of the coin. There may have been damage there that was smoothed over though.
In about 1981 I was shown a relic from another family's barn that had remained in the family for almost 140 years at that time. It was a nearly uncirculated 1844 dollar with a clear square nail hole through it. It had been nailed to the main beam of the family's barn when it had been built.
All glory is fleeting.1 -
@PerryHall said βI see no evidence of a hole having been drilled where you describe. Normally a hole would be drilled near the edge at the 12:00 position rather than in the field far from the edge. Also, there is no evidence of a hole on the reverse side of the coin in the wing area. This coin has issues but a plugged hole isn't one of them.β
I think the evidence of a hole/plug is clear, exactly where @TomB describes (in front of Miss Libertyβs forehead, with even more prominent evidence on the corresponding reverse point just to the right of the shield.) The quality of the repair work is not too bad, and they may have reconstructed some of the design elements,
Higashiyama1 -
1 -
@PerryHall said:
@TomB said:
I think it has been cleaned and polished and has had a hole repaired, as well. Look at the field directly in front of the portrait of Ms. Liberty forehead and eye area and see how unusual it looks and then look at the area on the reverse between the wing and the olive branches. I hope you didn't think this coin was a good candidate for a straight grade at PCGS.I see no evidence of a hole having been drilled where you describe. Normally a hole would be drilled near the edge at the 12:00 position rather than in the field far from the edge. Also, there is no evidence of a hole on the reverse side of the coin in the wing area. This coin has issues but a plugged hole isn't one of them.
It's easier to illustrate it with images than simply to explain it in words. Look at the red oval placed on the obverse and reverse. They correspond to the same area of the coin and the obverse has an obviously smoothed appearance while the reverse appears lighter in color and looks to have been heavily worked on. The coin looks to have been holed and repaired.
5 -
Okay. You have me convinced there was a hole there that was repaired. It's still a neat coin for someone on a tight budget who wants a neat coin that's really old.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire4 -
I kind of like these old repairs.. here's one I posted awhile ago.
An assortment of these goofy repaired coins could complement my holed set.. π€
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@BustDMs said:
Donβt waste your money.Not a waste of money if genuine and priced low enough to offer value
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Ok, since weβre talking about old, old damaged coins and their attractiveness vs. cost and value, hereβs one I found at my local B&M store 30 years ago. Doofus #1 inscribed some type of script in front of Libertyβs face on a high grade β99 dollar and doofus #2 tried to buff it out. Doofus #3 (me) bought it at a deep discount for an AU coin of this type. Iβd never be able to buy a straight graded coin at this level.
Lo and behold, careful examination reveals this to be an overstruck example with parts of a host coin underneath the overstruck version.
As @dhikewhitney states: these types of injured coins are not a waste of money if genuine and priced low enough to offer value.
Wisconsin nationals: gotta love 'em....4 -
Very cool coin above!
Too bad doofus 2 came along.. it would be fantastic if the inscription was still in place π©As to the under type, it appears to be the same coin from the same dies..?
coin was restruck, either on purpose or accidentally?
Awesome!0 -
@jayPem
There's not enough of the undertype visible to be sure if itβs from the same die, though I suspect it is. The two β99βsβ do look identical, but thereβs not much else to see..
I donβt see any doubling on the reverse, making me think the coin was βstuckβ on the reverse die, while the obverse shifted 30 degrees before a second strike. I believe in this era the dies were held in place by set screws which could loosen, allowed the dies to shift and rotate.Wisconsin nationals: gotta love 'em....0 -
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.
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@SoCalBigMark said:
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.Bleach?! π³
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@spyglassdesign said:
@SoCalBigMark said:
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.Bleach?! π³
Bleach will tone down the shine and darken a silver coin to make it somewhat more natural in appearance but it's still considered to be AT.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire0 -
@PerryHall said:
@spyglassdesign said:
@SoCalBigMark said:
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.Bleach?! π³
Bleach will tone down the shine and darken a silver coin to make it somewhat more natural in appearance but it's still considered to be AT.
Ah. Hadn't heard of that technique. Seems like it could be destructive to the surfaces being a chemical treatment?
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@spyglassdesign said:
@PerryHall said:
@spyglassdesign said:
@SoCalBigMark said:
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.Bleach?! π³
Bleach will tone down the shine and darken a silver coin to make it somewhat more natural in appearance but it's still considered to be AT.
Ah. Hadn't heard of that technique. Seems like it could be destructive to the surfaces being a chemical treatment?
I've never tried this technique but I would imagine after you get the color that you want, you would rinse it well to remove any residual bleach to stop any further chemical reaction.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire0 -
@PerryHall said:
@spyglassdesign said:
@SoCalBigMark said:
My old LBS would bleach that and toss it in the case.Bleach?! π³
Bleach will tone down the shine and darken a silver coin to make it somewhat more natural in appearance but it's still considered to be AT.
I've got the perfect coin to try this on .. will try and report back.
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@kaz said:
@PerryHall said:
That's the type of coin that I wouldn't mind owning if it were cheap enough---it's big, it's silver, and it's really old. I would store it in a kraft paper envelope and handle it frequently with my dirty unwashed hands to get some toning on it. It'll still be cleaned but at least it would look more natural over time. Don't waste your money getting it slabbed. This is the type of coin that you won't be afraid to handle.I agree. I bought this one on eBay many years ago, it's been polished and I put it away in brown paper. Has retoned some and is fun to handle.
I like this 1799, even if it has been previously polished. Any US Mint product from the 18th century holds a lot of interest in my book.
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@dhikewhitney said:
@BustDMs said:
Donβt waste your money.Not a waste of money if genuine and priced low enough to offer value
A waste of money to certify a coin that is OBVIOUSLY cleaned and will not get a straight grade. If the buyer can not tell it is not counterfeit they should not be buying the product anyway.
Just my opinion........
Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.1 -
@PerryHall said:
@TomB said:
I think it has been cleaned and polished and has had a hole repaired, as well. Look at the field directly in front of the portrait of Ms. Liberty forehead and eye area and see how unusual it looks and then look at the area on the reverse between the wing and the olive branches. I hope you didn't think this coin was a good candidate for a straight grade at PCGS.I see no evidence of a hole having been drilled where you describe. Normally a hole would be drilled near the edge at the 12:00 position rather than in the field far from the edge. Also, there is no evidence of a hole on the reverse side of the coin in the wing area. This coin has issues but a plugged hole isn't one of them.
I think the coin, at one time, had a severe gash across Liberty's face. The gash was smoothed out ("tooled").
As for the apparent hole it is likely that there is a plug there, based on the reverse image.
0
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