1793 Flowing Hair Large Cent: Real or Fake?

JohnPhiloponus · February 12, 2023 2:14PM

A friend has this large cent, and I would like an opinion as to whether this coin is believed to be real or fake. This is the first one I have seen, so I do not have much experience here. The expected weight is 13.48 grams, whereas this one weighs in at exactly 13.0 grams. I will appreciate anyone's opinion, together with any reasons why you believe such.
Thanks!

PerryHall · February 12, 2023 2:18PM

Looks like a cast copy.

cmerlo1 · February 12, 2023 2:20PM

I say fake. It looks like it had copper color over a dark base metal and the copper color has worn off on the high points.

Walkerguy21D · February 12, 2023 2:30PM

Also guessing a copy, from a genuine S-9 coin.

For kicks have your friend check out the edge of the coin, to see if the vine&bars edge is present, and no seam on it.

Coin Finder · February 12, 2023 3:15PM

Is it magnetic? If so its a fake. Looks fake to me though based on the pictures. Where did he get it?

gumby1234 · February 12, 2023 4:33PM

Welcome to the forum. Its a fake.

burfle23 · February 12, 2023 5:06PM

Details appear to match the obv and rev of a genuine S-9; also see some border beading on the obverse, but obviously the color is odd...

As @Walkerguy21D stated always look at the third side, the edge. Weight is always interesting to know and cast base metal fakes are usually heavier than standard.

JohnPhiloponus · February 12, 2023 5:51PM

The coin was inherited by my friend from his father-in-law.

jesbroken · February 12, 2023 6:14PM

Do you have photos of the edge?
Jim

jacrispies · February 12, 2023 10:40PM

Appears genuine at first glance, looking forward to edge photos.

Omegaraptor · February 12, 2023 10:55PM

Looking forward to edge photos. If there is a seam it could be an old electrotype, many of which have decent value although not as much as an authentic 1793 cent.

ricko · February 13, 2023 7:32AM

@JohnPhiloponus.... Welcome aboard. It looks like a fake to me... but would like better pictures, including the edge. That weight might be explained by wear, but seems a bit excessive. Cheers, RickO

lkenefic · February 13, 2023 7:52AM

Welcome to the Forum... and an interesting first post! The odd color put me off right away. Unless it's the lighting, even scrubbed copper doesn't appear that lightly toned. Another red flag is that there's a fair amount of edge wear, but Ms. Liberty and the reverse are still quite evident... the wear pattern just seems off to me. As others have mentioned, the edge (third side) of the coin can give an indication of whether or not it's a cast copy.

Welcome to the Forum!

rhedden · February 13, 2023 9:43AM

Looks like an authentic piece that was gold-plated for use in jewelry.

JohnPhiloponus · February 13, 2023 3:07PM

Steven59 · February 13, 2023 5:11PM

Just saying: (or crop your photos)...........

lkenefic · February 13, 2023 5:19PM

@rhedden said:
Looks like an authentic piece that was gold-plated for use in jewelry.

Now that the OP has posted the edge pic... this makes sense. Is it just me, I'm not seeing any sort of consistent seam along the edge...

jesbroken · February 13, 2023 5:33PM

I have a feeling the color of the photos in no way represent the color of the coin. Look at the edge photo. I would feel that is more representative of how the coin will look inhand. JMO
Jim

JohnPhiloponus · February 13, 2023 5:34PM

Metal analysis with a SEM EDS is in the works!

jdillane · February 13, 2023 5:41PM

l'm leaning legit.

Coin Finder · February 13, 2023 6:07PM

John, that type of large cent from 1793 had two different edge designs. One was lettered, One was called vines and bars..

As you look at the edge and rotate the coin, do you see bars... vertical lines close together. It looks like vines in the picture but hard to tell.

If the coin is real the weight differential could be the wear.

JohnPhiloponus · February 13, 2023 6:16PM

If used for jewelry the edge could have been filed to fit into a bezel. Jewelry never crossed my mind, but that sounds possible.

rhedden · February 13, 2023 7:06PM

A gold-plated pocket piece would be another possibility. It didn't have to be mounted in jewelry. Looks like some pocket wear took off the plating around the edges.

Walkerguy21D · February 13, 2023 7:44PM

@thebigeng said:
John, that type of large cent from 1793 had two different edge designs. One was lettered, One was called vines and bars..

As you look at the edge and rotate the coin, do you see bars... vertical lines close together. It looks like vines in the picture but hard to tell.

If the coin is real the weight differential could be the wear.

The S-9 only had vines&bars. The lettered edge didn’t show up until the S-11, right before the transition to the liberty cap design was introduced.

burfle23 · February 13, 2023 8:11PM

@JohnPhiloponus do you have the coin in hand? Does the edge look like the vine and bars @Walkerguy21D posted? It certainly does NOT in the image you posted.

opportunity · February 13, 2023 11:13PM

Take a sharp knife and put a minuscule cut on the rim, then try to show us what the underlying metal looks like. I'd also be interested in knowing the weight.

jesbroken · February 13, 2023 11:24PM

@opportunity said:
Take a sharp knife and put a minuscule cut on the rim, then try to show us what the underlying metal looks like. I'd also be interested in knowing the weight.

He told the weight Robert, exactly 13.0 grams which would make it less than the 13.48 grams they were produced at. I believe that one would go to pcgs for conserving and authentication. Might be a waste of money, but then couldn't hurt.
Jim

jmlanzaf · February 13, 2023 11:30PM

@opportunity said:
Take a sharp knife and put a minuscule cut on the rim, then try to show us what the underlying metal looks like. I'd also be interested in knowing the weight.

This is horrible advice

opportunity · February 14, 2023 12:29AM

@jesbroken said:

@opportunity said:
Take a sharp knife and put a minuscule cut on the rim, then try to show us what the underlying metal looks like. I'd also be interested in knowing the weight.

He told the weight Robert, exactly 13.0 grams which would make it less than the 13.48 grams they were produced at. I believe that one would go to pcgs for conserving and authentication. Might be a waste of money, but then couldn't hurt.
Jim

My bad, I missed that part. It most likely is genuine.

@jmlanzaf said:

@opportunity said:
Take a sharp knife and put a minuscule cut on the rim, then try to show us what the underlying metal looks like. I'd also be interested in knowing the weight.

This is horrible advice

I wouldn't normally suggest putting a tiny slice on the edge, but when the coin is this far gone... if done right, it's not noticeable. It's a quick and easy test to check for cast copies and electros, only to be done on coins that are not nice and at your own discretion.

jacrispies · February 14, 2023 12:55AM

If only there is a way to see inside of a coin without damaging it...

oh wait... perhaps an XRF analyzer?🤔

jacrispies · February 14, 2023 12:56AM

.

JohnPhiloponus · February 14, 2023 4:09AM

The plan is to send to PCGS if it is possibly legit, but in the meantime, if we can prove it is fake, then we can save the bucks and the trouble. I know someone with a SEM EDS and I am checking to see if he is willing to scan this one. I had another done by him and the results contradicted two previous XRF scans, but that is another story.

Does anyone know what can PCGS do for conservation? Can they remove the gold plating? If holdered, I assume it would be labelled as XXX-details.

Walkerguy21D · February 14, 2023 5:57AM

Good luck; I have one in much better condition, genuine imo but obviously tooled on the obverse - that came back as Authenticity Unverifiable.

JohnPhiloponus · February 17, 2023 1:28PM

Update: I took the 1793 cent to my friend/research scientist at SUNY Buffalo, who did an x-ray map. The map included the nose and some surrounding areas. The coin is pure copper, and the shiny areas have a layer of varnish, most likely about 1 micron thick. The bet explanation I can find is the coin was taken out of circulation in the mid-1800's, cleaned and varnished, and used as jewelry. There are a few other coins in the same collection with the same appearance.

The question is, what to do with the varnish? Should we remove it with acetone? And, any guesses as to what PCGS would do with this coin? I assume at best details, and at worst, returned in a flip without authentication.

PerryHall · February 17, 2023 1:59PM

I would send it to PCGS and let their conservation service handle the conservation of your coin and then let them grade and slab it.

dsessom · February 17, 2023 3:05PM

It looks like a legitimate coin that was possibly used for jewelry at some point.

I agree with @PerryHall - if it is legit, it is worth conserving and after it's been nursed back to health by the professionals at PCGS, you will have a very rare and valuable coin... **IF* it's a legit coin.

dsessom · February 17, 2023 3:25PM

@JohnPhiloponus said:

The question is, what to do with the varnish? Should we remove it with acetone? And, any guesses as to what PCGS would do with this coin? I assume at best details, and at worst, returned in a flip without authentication.

Do absolutely NOTHING with it yourself. That coin, if authentic, is extremely rare. Anything you do to it might degrade it further. I would put it into something that will protect it, call PCGS and speak to them about it.

JohnPhiloponus · February 17, 2023 6:19PM

Thanks for all the wonderful advice. The coin is in a flip and well protected. It will most likely be sent to PCGS shortly.

JohnPhiloponus · May 10, 2023 4:07AM

Update: PCGS restored the coin, and "graded" as Genuine G Details (Cleaned).
I will post a picture as soon as it becomes available.

Walkerguy21D · May 10, 2023 4:35AM

Thanks for the update.
The original photo looked to have better than Good details, but at least it’s genuine.

VTchaser · May 10, 2023 7:31AM

@dsessom said:
It looks like a legitimate coin that was possibly used for jewelry at some point.

I agree with @PerryHall - if it is legit, it is worth conserving and after it's been nursed back to health by the professionals at PCGS, you will have a very rare and valuable coin... **IF* it's a legit coin.

What would PCGS do to nurse it back to health?

I've never submitted a coin so I don't know what the process actually is other than grading/slabbing.

ChrisH821 · May 10, 2023 7:37AM

Awesome! Thanks for the update.

jesbroken · May 10, 2023 7:47AM

Did you by chance have it photographed(TV) by PCGS? Hope so.
Jim

lkenefic · May 10, 2023 7:52AM

Awesome! A story with a happy ending!!

JohnPhiloponus · May 10, 2023 8:04AM

I did have PCGS take a phot, and will share when it is available.

I also called for their restoration services. As mentioned earlier, I have an x-ray map done by friend Peter Bush at SUNY Buffalo and it shows varnish on the coin, specifically in the shiny areas. That confirms what posters said earlier about being used for jewelry. I believe the coin was taken out of circulation 30-50 years after it was struck, cleaned and then coated with varnish. As the varnish wore off the high points the oxidation provided a nice contrast. Part of the restoration I assume was removing the varnish. I am not sure what else. Perhaps the photo they take will tell.

One more interesting note: a couple more large cents were purchased from the owner of this coin and they had the same look, but were holed.

I should have the PCGS photo in a few days.

Thanks everyone!

jayPem · May 10, 2023 8:10AM

Cool!
Sorry to hear that it was “restored” though. It looked like a very interesting coin with some sort of story to tell.

telephoto1 · May 10, 2023 8:10AM

I'm late to the party on this one but my first take was that it looked genuine but coated with something.
Curious to see the "after" pics.

JohnPhiloponus · May 10, 2023 8:28AM

About 15 years ago it was taken to Antiques Road Show at Buffalo State College and their opinion was that it was a reproduction.

JohnPhiloponus · May 10, 2023 8:29AM

@telephoto1 said:
I'm late to the party on this one but my first take was that it looked genuine but coated with something.
Curious to see the "after" pics.

The color in the photo is a bit off. In person it looks more like shiny copper.

telephoto1 · May 10, 2023 8:30AM

@JohnPhiloponus said:
About 15 years ago it was taken to Antiques Road Show at Buffalo State College and their opinion was that it was a reproduction.

I've never put a lot of stock in roadshow "experts" for the most part.

PerryHall · May 10, 2023 8:52AM

@JohnPhiloponus said:
About 15 years ago it was taken to Antiques Road Show at Buffalo State College and their opinion was that it was a reproduction.

In the pre-slab era, I showed a dealer a raw double eagle. He told me that it was a counterfeit and then tried to buy it from me.

1793 Flowing Hair Large Cent: Real or Fake?

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