1793 Flowing Hair Large Cent: Real or Fake?
JohnPhiloponus
Posts: 38 ✭✭✭
A friend has this large cent, and I would like an opinion as to whether this coin is believed to be real or fake. This is the first one I have seen, so I do not have much experience here. The expected weight is 13.48 grams, whereas this one weighs in at exactly 13.0 grams. I will appreciate anyone's opinion, together with any reasons why you believe such.
Thanks!
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
2
Comments
Looks like a cast copy.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I say fake. It looks like it had copper color over a dark base metal and the copper color has worn off on the high points.
Also guessing a copy, from a genuine S-9 coin.
For kicks have your friend check out the edge of the coin, to see if the vine&bars edge is present, and no seam on it.
Is it magnetic? If so its a fake. Looks fake to me though based on the pictures. Where did he get it?
Welcome to the forum. Its a fake.
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Details appear to match the obv and rev of a genuine S-9; also see some border beading on the obverse, but obviously the color is odd...
As @Walkerguy21D stated always look at the third side, the edge. Weight is always interesting to know and cast base metal fakes are usually heavier than standard.
The coin was inherited by my friend from his father-in-law.
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
Do you have photos of the edge?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Appears genuine at first glance, looking forward to edge photos.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
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Looking forward to edge photos. If there is a seam it could be an old electrotype, many of which have decent value although not as much as an authentic 1793 cent.
"You can't get just one gun." "You can't get just one tattoo." "You can't get just one 1796 Draped Bust Large Cent."
@JohnPhiloponus.... Welcome aboard. It looks like a fake to me... but would like better pictures, including the edge. That weight might be explained by wear, but seems a bit excessive. Cheers, RickO
Welcome to the Forum... and an interesting first post! The odd color put me off right away. Unless it's the lighting, even scrubbed copper doesn't appear that lightly toned. Another red flag is that there's a fair amount of edge wear, but Ms. Liberty and the reverse are still quite evident... the wear pattern just seems off to me. As others have mentioned, the edge (third side) of the coin can give an indication of whether or not it's a cast copy.
Welcome to the Forum!
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Looks like an authentic piece that was gold-plated for use in jewelry.
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
Just saying: (or crop your photos)...........
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Now that the OP has posted the edge pic... this makes sense. Is it just me, I'm not seeing any sort of consistent seam along the edge...
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I have a feeling the color of the photos in no way represent the color of the coin. Look at the edge photo. I would feel that is more representative of how the coin will look inhand. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Metal analysis with a SEM EDS is in the works!
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
l'm leaning legit.
John, that type of large cent from 1793 had two different edge designs. One was lettered, One was called vines and bars..
As you look at the edge and rotate the coin, do you see bars... vertical lines close together. It looks like vines in the picture but hard to tell.
If the coin is real the weight differential could be the wear.
If used for jewelry the edge could have been filed to fit into a bezel. Jewelry never crossed my mind, but that sounds possible.
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
A gold-plated pocket piece would be another possibility. It didn't have to be mounted in jewelry. Looks like some pocket wear took off the plating around the edges.
The S-9 only had vines&bars. The lettered edge didn’t show up until the S-11, right before the transition to the liberty cap design was introduced.
@JohnPhiloponus do you have the coin in hand? Does the edge look like the vine and bars @Walkerguy21D posted? It certainly does NOT in the image you posted.
Take a sharp knife and put a minuscule cut on the rim, then try to show us what the underlying metal looks like. I'd also be interested in knowing the weight.
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
He told the weight Robert, exactly 13.0 grams which would make it less than the 13.48 grams they were produced at. I believe that one would go to pcgs for conserving and authentication. Might be a waste of money, but then couldn't hurt.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
This is horrible advice
My bad, I missed that part. It most likely is genuine.
I wouldn't normally suggest putting a tiny slice on the edge, but when the coin is this far gone... if done right, it's not noticeable. It's a quick and easy test to check for cast copies and electros, only to be done on coins that are not nice and at your own discretion.
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
If only there is a way to see inside of a coin without damaging it...
oh wait... perhaps an XRF analyzer?🤔
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
The plan is to send to PCGS if it is possibly legit, but in the meantime, if we can prove it is fake, then we can save the bucks and the trouble. I know someone with a SEM EDS and I am checking to see if he is willing to scan this one. I had another done by him and the results contradicted two previous XRF scans, but that is another story.
Does anyone know what can PCGS do for conservation? Can they remove the gold plating? If holdered, I assume it would be labelled as XXX-details.
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
Good luck; I have one in much better condition, genuine imo but obviously tooled on the obverse - that came back as Authenticity Unverifiable.
Update: I took the 1793 cent to my friend/research scientist at SUNY Buffalo, who did an x-ray map. The map included the nose and some surrounding areas. The coin is pure copper, and the shiny areas have a layer of varnish, most likely about 1 micron thick. The bet explanation I can find is the coin was taken out of circulation in the mid-1800's, cleaned and varnished, and used as jewelry. There are a few other coins in the same collection with the same appearance.
The question is, what to do with the varnish? Should we remove it with acetone? And, any guesses as to what PCGS would do with this coin? I assume at best details, and at worst, returned in a flip without authentication.
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
I would send it to PCGS and let their conservation service handle the conservation of your coin and then let them grade and slab it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It looks like a legitimate coin that was possibly used for jewelry at some point.
I agree with @PerryHall - if it is legit, it is worth conserving and after it's been nursed back to health by the professionals at PCGS, you will have a very rare and valuable coin... **IF* it's a legit coin.
Do absolutely NOTHING with it yourself. That coin, if authentic, is extremely rare. Anything you do to it might degrade it further. I would put it into something that will protect it, call PCGS and speak to them about it.
Thanks for all the wonderful advice. The coin is in a flip and well protected. It will most likely be sent to PCGS shortly.
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
Update: PCGS restored the coin, and "graded" as Genuine G Details (Cleaned).
I will post a picture as soon as it becomes available.
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
Thanks for the update.
The original photo looked to have better than Good details, but at least it’s genuine.
What would PCGS do to nurse it back to health?
I've never submitted a coin so I don't know what the process actually is other than grading/slabbing.
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Awesome! Thanks for the update.
Collector, occasional seller
Did you by chance have it photographed(TV) by PCGS? Hope so.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Awesome! A story with a happy ending!!
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I did have PCGS take a phot, and will share when it is available.
I also called for their restoration services. As mentioned earlier, I have an x-ray map done by friend Peter Bush at SUNY Buffalo and it shows varnish on the coin, specifically in the shiny areas. That confirms what posters said earlier about being used for jewelry. I believe the coin was taken out of circulation 30-50 years after it was struck, cleaned and then coated with varnish. As the varnish wore off the high points the oxidation provided a nice contrast. Part of the restoration I assume was removing the varnish. I am not sure what else. Perhaps the photo they take will tell.
One more interesting note: a couple more large cents were purchased from the owner of this coin and they had the same look, but were holed.
I should have the PCGS photo in a few days.
Thanks everyone!
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
Cool!
Sorry to hear that it was “restored” though. It looked like a very interesting coin with some sort of story to tell.
I'm late to the party on this one but my first take was that it looked genuine but coated with something.
Curious to see the "after" pics.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
About 15 years ago it was taken to Antiques Road Show at Buffalo State College and their opinion was that it was a reproduction.
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
The color in the photo is a bit off. In person it looks more like shiny copper.
Collector of Victoria, Edward VII, George V and George VI Canadian; and most anything U.S. I am currently looking for early Lincolns, raw in XF or better.
I've never put a lot of stock in roadshow "experts" for the most part.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
In the pre-slab era, I showed a dealer a raw double eagle. He told me that it was a counterfeit and then tried to buy it from me.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire