@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
@Chevyrose said:
So far the top TPG has given their opinion which as of right now translates to a marketplace fact
No. It's still an opinion.
From the submission form terms you agree to when you submit coins for grading:
"Grading involves individual judgments that are subjective and require the exercise of professional opinion,
which can change from time to time. Therefore, PCGS makes no warranty or representation and shall have
no liability whatsoever to Customer for the grade assigned by PCGS to any coin, except pursuant to PCGS’s
Guarantee resubmission as set forth on PCGS’s website at pcgs.com/Guarantee."
Facts don't change from time to time.
Please tell me grading is an art next
I'm just reminding you what you agreed to when you sent the coin for grading.
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
So the engine on my car blew
All sales are final
Pound salt
This is becoming redundant. I’m sure the dealer will work with me or he’ll lose some sales that day
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
So the engine on my car blew
All sales are final
Pound salt
This is becoming redundant. I’m sure the dealer will work with me or he’ll lose some sales that day
I’ll let you know how it goes
I'm sure you'll get exactly what you deserve. Peace out.
@Chevyrose said:
So far the top TPG has given their opinion which as of right now translates to a marketplace fact
No. It's still an opinion.
From the submission form terms you agree to when you submit coins for grading:
"Grading involves individual judgments that are subjective and require the exercise of professional opinion,
which can change from time to time. Therefore, PCGS makes no warranty or representation and shall have
no liability whatsoever to Customer for the grade assigned by PCGS to any coin, except pursuant to PCGS’s
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
Assume it was a transaction between two adult males with one ounce each of integrity
I mean I feel 3-4 hundred bucks back. Meet in the middle, no hard feelings
@Chevyrose said:
I believe the dealer should at least kick me back a few hundred bucks and i keep the coin
If you think the coin should have been priced a few hundred bucks less, why didn't you tell the dealer so before you agreed to buy it?
If a used car dealer sold you a car for $3000 and a week later the engine blew
Would you
A chalk it up as a loss
B see if you can work something out with the dealer
The Dealer should have integrity whether he believed the car to be in good shape
Or if he sold it knowing it was a lemon
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Bad example. That coin is EXACTLY the same as when you bought it. It didn't blow an engine.
If you were the dealer, how would you even know it was the same coin? How would he know that you didn't mess with it?
In these parts, we call it "tuition ". We all pay it and we eat the humble pie like a man.
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
So the engine on my car blew
All sales are final
Pound salt
This is becoming redundant. I’m sure the dealer will work with me or he’ll lose some sales that day
I’ll let you know how it goes
Your engine didn't blow. Unless the dealer broke into you house and cleaned the coin, the coin didn't change. It is as it was.
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
So the engine on my car blew
All sales are final
Pound salt
This is becoming redundant. I’m sure the dealer will work with me or he’ll lose some sales that day
I’ll let you know how it goes
Your engine didn't blow. Unless the dealer broke into you house and cleaned the coin, the coin didn't change. It is as it was.
@Chevyrose said:
I believe the dealer should at least kick me back a few hundred bucks and i keep the coin
If you think the coin should have been priced a few hundred bucks less, why didn't you tell the dealer so before you agreed to buy it?
If a used car dealer sold you a car for $3000 and a week later the engine blew
Would you
A chalk it up as a loss
B see if you can work something out with the dealer
The Dealer should have integrity whether he believed the car to be in good shape
Or if he sold it knowing it was a lemon
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Bad example. That coin is EXACTLY the same as when you bought it. It didn't blow an engine.
If you were the dealer, how would you even know it was the same coin? How would he know that you didn't mess with it?
In these parts, we call it "tuition ". We all pay it and we eat the humble pie like a man.
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
So the engine on my car blew
All sales are final
Pound salt
This is becoming redundant. I’m sure the dealer will work with me or he’ll lose some sales that day
I’ll let you know how it goes
Your engine didn't blow. Unless the dealer broke into you house and cleaned the coin, the coin didn't change. It is as it was.
Sorry but I think pcgs has some credibility
Yes, lots of people respect their opinion.
Did you know they offer a reconsideration service that people use when they disagree with PCGS's opinion? And that sometimes, PCGS agrees that their previous opinion was incorrect?
@Chevyrose said:
Assume it was a transaction between two adult males with one ounce each of integrity
What was agreed to? I can't give you an answer without that information.
The sale of a ms63 rb 55/55 for cash
Dealer offers a 30 return policy
I’m not even asking for that
Just to meet in the middle a little more
Do you always have this much trouble answering questions?
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
So the engine on my car blew
All sales are final
Pound salt
This is becoming redundant. I’m sure the dealer will work with me or he’ll lose some sales that day
I’ll let you know how it goes
Your engine didn't blow. Unless the dealer broke into you house and cleaned the coin, the coin didn't change. It is as it was.
Sorry but I think pcgs has some credibility
Yes, lots of people respect their opinion.
Did you know they offer a reconsideration service that people use when they disagree with PCGS's opinion? And that sometimes, PCGS agrees that their previous opinion was incorrect?
I have heard of that even used it successfully. Another 1955/55 example I own went from ms63 rb to ms64 rb and my 1909s rb went from 66 to 66+
Have you had any coins go up during reconsideration?
@Chevyrose said:
I believe the dealer should at least kick me back a few hundred bucks and i keep the coin
If you think the coin should have been priced a few hundred bucks less, why didn't you tell the dealer so before you agreed to buy it?
If a used car dealer sold you a car for $3000 and a week later the engine blew
Would you
A chalk it up as a loss
B see if you can work something out with the dealer
The Dealer should have integrity whether he believed the car to be in good shape
Or if he sold it knowing it was a lemon
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Bad example. That coin is EXACTLY the same as when you bought it. It didn't blow an engine.
If you were the dealer, how would you even know it was the same coin? How would he know that you didn't mess with it?
In these parts, we call it "tuition ". We all pay it and we eat the humble pie like a man.
Is it the same coin or not? I’m confused
You're confused about what? How is the dealer supposed to recognize a coin weeks or months later? Try to see it from his perspective.
The metaphor really is that you bought a car. Your girlfriend decided she didn't like the color of the car and so you want a refund.
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
So the engine on my car blew
All sales are final
Pound salt
This is becoming redundant. I’m sure the dealer will work with me or he’ll lose some sales that day
I’ll let you know how it goes
Your engine didn't blow. Unless the dealer broke into you house and cleaned the coin, the coin didn't change. It is as it was.
Sorry but I think pcgs has some credibility
Yes, lots of people respect their opinion.
Did you know they offer a reconsideration service that people use when they disagree with PCGS's opinion? And that sometimes, PCGS agrees that their previous opinion was incorrect?
I have heard of that even used it successfully. Another 1955/55 example I own went from ms63 rb to ms64 rb and my 1909s rb went from 66 to 66+
Have you had any coins go up during reconsideration?
I hate to pile on, but you took the risk. Dealer can call it anything he wants, but you BOUGHT after inspecting it yourself. Even from your photos, the coin never looked mint state to my eyes. And to be perfectly honest, it has an unnatural color indicative of the cleaning. Was hoping it was just the photos, but it is what it is.
Trying to embarrass the dealer at his table is going to make you look like the fool, not him. It will also get you escorted out of the show rather promptly.
The blown engine on the car comparison is also ridiculous. You bought a cleaned coin, compared it to your MS64RB example, and crossed your fingers it was the same grade. It wasn't.
We all sympathize with you, I'm sure. But you are owed nothing from that dealer.
Don't delude yourself.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
So the engine on my car blew
All sales are final
Pound salt
This is becoming redundant. I’m sure the dealer will work with me or he’ll lose some sales that day
I’ll let you know how it goes
Your engine didn't blow. Unless the dealer broke into you house and cleaned the coin, the coin didn't change. It is as it was.
Sorry but I think pcgs has some credibility
Yes. Let's say they are right. It doesn't change the flaw in your metaphor nor YOUR responsibility for not recognizing a cleaned coin. Two adults looked at a coin, agreed on the grade, and agreed on the price. Period.
It was a sight seen deal. If it came back 65, would you run back to the dealer to pay him more? What would you say to the dealer if he came back to you and asked you for more money? You want him to carry all the risk and you want to carry none.
@Chevyrose said:
I believe the dealer should at least kick me back a few hundred bucks and i keep the coin
If you think the coin should have been priced a few hundred bucks less, why didn't you tell the dealer so before you agreed to buy it?
If a used car dealer sold you a car for $3000 and a week later the engine blew
Would you
A chalk it up as a loss
B see if you can work something out with the dealer
The Dealer should have integrity whether he believed the car to be in good shape
Or if he sold it knowing it was a lemon
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Bad example. That coin is EXACTLY the same as when you bought it. It didn't blow an engine.
If you were the dealer, how would you even know it was the same coin? How would he know that you didn't mess with it?
In these parts, we call it "tuition ". We all pay it and we eat the humble pie like a man.
Is it the same coin or not? I’m confused
You're confused about what? How is the dealer supposed to recognize a coin weeks or months later? Try to see it from his perspective.
The metaphor really is that you bought a car. Your girlfriend decided she didn't like the color of the car and so you want a refund.
I think it possibly might not have been. The OP wrote:
"I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened."
"Advertised it as" sounds like he could have bought the coin online from someone who always attends a particular show. Who says "advertised it as" for how a coin at a show is graded? Hard to be sure what he meant, though.
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
So the engine on my car blew
All sales are final
Pound salt
This is becoming redundant. I’m sure the dealer will work with me or he’ll lose some sales that day
I’ll let you know how it goes
Your engine didn't blow. Unless the dealer broke into you house and cleaned the coin, the coin didn't change. It is as it was.
Sorry but I think pcgs has some credibility
Yes. Let's say they are right. It doesn't change the flaw in your metaphor nor YOUR responsibility for not recognizing a cleaned coin. Two adults looked at a coin, agreed on the grade, and agreed on the price. Period.
It was a sight seen deal. If it came back 65, would you run back to the dealer to pay him more? What would you say to the dealer if he came back to you and asked you for more money? You want him to carry all the risk and you want to carry none.
I think it possibly might not have been. The OP wrote:
"I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened."
"Advertised it as" sounds like he could have bought the coin online from someone who always attends a particular show. Who says "advertised it as" for how a coin at a show is graded? Hard to be sure what he meant, though.
I think "advertised it as" refers to the labeling. If it was an online transaction, he wouldn't need to wait for the next show to contact the dealer.
I think it possibly might not have been. The OP wrote:
"I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened."
"Advertised it as" sounds like he could have bought the coin online from someone who always attends a particular show. Who says "advertised it as" for how a coin at a show is graded? Hard to be sure what he meant, though.
I think "advertised it as" refers to the labeling. If it was an online transaction, he wouldn't need to wait for the next show to contact the dealer.
No, he wouldn't. I'd question the effectiveness of a megaphone in that case though.
edited to add... OP says "Dealer offers a 30 return policy", I've been going to coin shows for over fifty years and don't remember a single dealer advertising a return policy on purchases.
A basic lesson here is that unless one knows how to grade raw coins, one should buy already certified/graded coins. They’ll be more expensive but the limited risk and downside are additional benefits.
A basic lesson here is that unless one knows how to grade raw coins, one should buy already certified/graded coins. They’ll be more expensive but the limited risk and downside are additional benefits.
This.
Somewhat. The OP now has the benefit of this entire thread. So...that's not nothing!
And you can send a coin in a plastic tomb to another grading company and it can downgrade...so there are downside risks all the same. Perhaps not as great, but there are still some.
I went back and refreshed my memory on the early posts to the thread.
The OP had a raw 55/55, was confident of a grade and that it hadn't been cleaned. He also rejected the notion that he should stick to slabbed coins, insisting that learning how to grade (and authenticate) was something he wanted to do for himself from the beginning as a collector.
Then the coin came back...
It seems the OP wants a free education, with free tuition. If he comes out ahead, he's a winner. If he makes a mistake, he wants the seller to pay for it.
Early on the OP wrote:
I paid $2800 for the coin
A bit of a gamble
But if I could never fail I wouldn’t try.
So, he admittedly gambled, he acknowledged the possibility of failing, but ultimately wants the dealer to provide a safety net.
If you make a scene at the dealer's table as you've proposed, I'll bet you'll be blocked as a customer by everyone there.
@JBK said:
I went back and refreshed my memory on the early posts to the thread.
The OP had a raw 55/55, was confident of a grade and that it hadn't been cleaned. He also rejected the notion that he should stick to slabbed coins, insisting that learning how to grade (and authenticate) was something he wanted to do for himself from the beginning as a collector.
Then the coin came back...
It seems the OP wants a free education, with free tuition. If he comes out ahead, he's a winner. If he makes a mistake, he wants the seller to pay for it.
Early on the OP wrote:
I paid $2800 for the coin
A bit of a gamble
But if I could never fail I wouldn’t try.
So, he admittedly gambled, he acknowledged the possibility of failing, but ultimately wants the dealer to provide a safety net.
If you make a scene at the dealer's table as you've proposed, I'll bet you'll be blocked as a customer by everyone there.
Yeah, the whole tenor of the OP changed when he got the PCGS results. Numerous forum members said AU details but he didn't agree, obviously.
30-day return policy and you got your PCGS submission within that time?
my last submission was closer to 5 months.
Your blown engine analogy sucks, because the dealer has no idea what was done to the car since it left the lot.
A teenager driving in 2nd gear at 6000 rpm would do that or an oil change without replacing the drain plug.
The same could be said of a coin after it leaves a dealers table. If you wanted a PCGS slabbed coin, you could have bought one or even had that dealer submit it with purchase contingent on a certain grade.
My largest losses have come from purchasing raw or 3rd world slab hiding problem.
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
That actually never happens or once in a blue moon. 99% of the time when a dealer prices the coin that high and puts a grade on the holder it is actually maxed out at that. And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty, that was what the Accugrade case ended up being about. Systematic overgrading does have consequencees. If it gets sent to PCGS then NGC and the verdicts are about the same then the fault is not with the "arbitrary" grading services.
I don't understand this response. The coin was raw. The OP saw the coin in hand before purchase. Such purchases, other than counterfeits, don't have any implied guarantee of TPG grade. Accugrade was a grading service not a dealer.
Forget the cleaning part. You seem to be implying that if a dealer seeks a coin as a 64 and it comes back 63 that he is liable for the difference in value.
It's hubristic for a dealer to put "MS63 rb" or MS64 rb" on the coin which are big money grades for a coin like this and then to be absolved of all responsibility for the $2800 transaction. Most dealers have a return policy if a coin is returned in original condition. In this case the dealer likely paid $1000 less than what he sold if for, I doubt he was snookered into paying no problem Unc. money for it.
We have previous discussions on fringe grading services such as PCI in the late re-incarnation that was held liable for bogus grades: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/944394/federal-court-calls-for-damages-of-nearly-1-9-million-for-misrepresented-pci-coins There was a discussion years before that on Accugrade being held liable for bogus grades. How long should people tolerate misrepresentation? They can't get away with it on ebay stating grades of their own, the only such listings permitted are from 4 approved services with real guarantees. Plus on ebay a raw coin cannot be listed for over $2500. A local coin club has a grading committee and will not permit members to put grades on their coins in the monthly auction unless they pass the objective committee.
This reminds me of your recent “victim” thread. Maybe the dealer will accept a return, but with a raw coin maybe not. Maybe the dealer truly thought it was in the condition represented.
A basic lesson here is that unless one knows how to grade raw coins, one should buy already certified/graded coins. They’ll be more expensive but the limited risk and downside are additional benefits.
This and similar comments makes clear you and others similar have no problem playing games with customers with misrepresentation and use the usual and tired arguments that grading is totally subjective and it is possible and even likely to overgrade coins they get blind to the fact that they do have liabilities connected to mistakes and have actual warranties. If a dealer wants to honestly represent his coins and they are uncertified he should either stand behind grades he assigns or call them "AU" or "BU" or even "gem" as ebay permits. I don't know another large business field where sellers can engage in various forms of chicanery without consequences. The transaction here stinks with that level of money at stake with virtually unlimited downside. All the facts surrounding business transactions and contracts matter as much as those with a bias would want to dismiss them.
Yup took a risk
Dealer advertised mint state 63 red brown 1955/55 for $3200
He took $2800
I knew it could be a risk
I also trusted him as a dealer
And still do
I feel a couple hundred back and I keep the coin
I’ll talk to him at the next show in 2 weeks
My logic isn’t crazy
Insert @MasonG regurgitation of my megaphone comment
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
That actually never happens or once in a blue moon. 99% of the time when a dealer prices the coin that high and puts a grade on the holder it is actually maxed out at that. And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty, that was what the Accugrade case ended up being about. Systematic overgrading does have consequencees. If it gets sent to PCGS then NGC and the verdicts are about the same then the fault is not with the "arbitrary" grading services.
I don't understand this response. The coin was raw. The OP saw the coin in hand before purchase. Such purchases, other than counterfeits, don't have any implied guarantee of TPG grade. Accugrade was a grading service not a dealer.
Forget the cleaning part. You seem to be implying that if a dealer seeks a coin as a 64 and it comes back 63 that he is liable for the difference in value.
It's hubristic for a dealer to put "MS63 rb" or MS64 rb" on the coin which are big money grades for a coin like this and then to be absolved of all responsibility for the $2800 transaction. Most dealers have a return policy if a coin is returned in original condition. In this case the dealer likely paid $1000 less than what he sold if for, I doubt he was snookered into paying no problem Unc. money for it.
We have previous discussions on fringe grading services such as PCI in the late re-incarnation that was held liable for bogus grades: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/944394/federal-court-calls-for-damages-of-nearly-1-9-million-for-misrepresented-pci-coins There was a discussion years before that on Accugrade being held liable for bogus grades. How long should people tolerate misrepresentation? They can't get away with it on ebay stating grades of their own, the only such listings permitted are from 4 approved services with real guarantees. Plus on ebay a raw coin cannot be listed for over $2500. A local coin club has a grading committee and will not permit members to put grades on their coins in the monthly auction unless they pass the objective committee.
This reminds me of your recent “victim” thread. Maybe the dealer will accept a return, but with a raw coin maybe not. Maybe the dealer truly thought it was in the condition represented.
A basic lesson here is that unless one knows how to grade raw coins, one should buy already certified/graded coins. They’ll be more expensive but the limited risk and downside are additional benefits.
This and similar comments makes clear you and others similar have no problem playing games with customers with misrepresentation and use the usual and tired arguments that grading is totally subjective and it is possible and even likely to overgrade coins they get blind to the fact that they do have liabilities connected to mistakes and have actual warranties. If a dealer wants to honestly represent his coins and they are uncertified he should either stand behind grades he assigns or call them "AU" or "BU" or even "gem" as ebay permits. I don't know another large business field where sellers can engage in various forms of chicanery without consequences. The transaction here stinks with that level of money at stake with virtually unlimited downside. All the facts surrounding business transactions and contracts matter as much as those with a bias would want to dismiss them.
This was a SIGHT SEEN transaction. That makes a difference in my book.
There is not "unlimited downside". There $2800 downside.
Any jackhole can set up at a show. The chicanery could well be one ignorant collector who thinks he can grade selling to another ignorant collector who thinks he can grade.
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
That actually never happens or once in a blue moon. 99% of the time when a dealer prices the coin that high and puts a grade on the holder it is actually maxed out at that. And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty, that was what the Accugrade case ended up being about. Systematic overgrading does have consequencees. If it gets sent to PCGS then NGC and the verdicts are about the same then the fault is not with the "arbitrary" grading services.
I don't understand this response. The coin was raw. The OP saw the coin in hand before purchase. Such purchases, other than counterfeits, don't have any implied guarantee of TPG grade. Accugrade was a grading service not a dealer.
Forget the cleaning part. You seem to be implying that if a dealer seeks a coin as a 64 and it comes back 63 that he is liable for the difference in value.
It's hubristic for a dealer to put "MS63 rb" or MS64 rb" on the coin which are big money grades for a coin like this and then to be absolved of all responsibility for the $2800 transaction. Most dealers have a return policy if a coin is returned in original condition. In this case the dealer likely paid $1000 less than what he sold if for, I doubt he was snookered into paying no problem Unc. money for it.
We have previous discussions on fringe grading services such as PCI in the late re-incarnation that was held liable for bogus grades: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/944394/federal-court-calls-for-damages-of-nearly-1-9-million-for-misrepresented-pci-coins There was a discussion years before that on Accugrade being held liable for bogus grades. How long should people tolerate misrepresentation? They can't get away with it on ebay stating grades of their own, the only such listings permitted are from 4 approved services with real guarantees. Plus on ebay a raw coin cannot be listed for over $2500. A local coin club has a grading committee and will not permit members to put grades on their coins in the monthly auction unless they pass the objective committee.
This reminds me of your recent “victim” thread. Maybe the dealer will accept a return, but with a raw coin maybe not. Maybe the dealer truly thought it was in the condition represented.
A basic lesson here is that unless one knows how to grade raw coins, one should buy already certified/graded coins. They’ll be more expensive but the limited risk and downside are additional benefits.
This and similar comments makes clear you and others similar have no problem playing games with customers with misrepresentation and use the usual and tired arguments that grading is totally subjective and it is possible and even likely to overgrade coins they get blind to the fact that they do have liabilities connected to mistakes and have actual warranties. If a dealer wants to honestly represent his coins and they are uncertified he should either stand behind grades he assigns or call them "AU" or "BU" or even "gem" as ebay permits. I don't know another large business field where sellers can engage in various forms of chicanery without consequences. The transaction here stinks with that level of money at stake with virtually unlimited downside. All the facts surrounding business transactions and contracts matter as much as those with a bias would want to dismiss them.
This was a SIGHT SEEN transaction. That makes a difference in my book.
There is not "unlimited downside". There $2800 downside.
Any jackhole can set up at a show. The chicanery could well be one ignorant collector who thinks he can grade selling to another ignorant collector who thinks he can grade.
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
That actually never happens or once in a blue moon. 99% of the time when a dealer prices the coin that high and puts a grade on the holder it is actually maxed out at that. And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty, that was what the Accugrade case ended up being about. Systematic overgrading does have consequencees. If it gets sent to PCGS then NGC and the verdicts are about the same then the fault is not with the "arbitrary" grading services.
I don't understand this response. The coin was raw. The OP saw the coin in hand before purchase. Such purchases, other than counterfeits, don't have any implied guarantee of TPG grade. Accugrade was a grading service not a dealer.
Forget the cleaning part. You seem to be implying that if a dealer seeks a coin as a 64 and it comes back 63 that he is liable for the difference in value.
It's hubristic for a dealer to put "MS63 rb" or MS64 rb" on the coin which are big money grades for a coin like this and then to be absolved of all responsibility for the $2800 transaction. Most dealers have a return policy if a coin is returned in original condition. In this case the dealer likely paid $1000 less than what he sold if for, I doubt he was snookered into paying no problem Unc. money for it.
We have previous discussions on fringe grading services such as PCI in the late re-incarnation that was held liable for bogus grades: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/944394/federal-court-calls-for-damages-of-nearly-1-9-million-for-misrepresented-pci-coins There was a discussion years before that on Accugrade being held liable for bogus grades. How long should people tolerate misrepresentation? They can't get away with it on ebay stating grades of their own, the only such listings permitted are from 4 approved services with real guarantees. Plus on ebay a raw coin cannot be listed for over $2500. A local coin club has a grading committee and will not permit members to put grades on their coins in the monthly auction unless they pass the objective committee.
This reminds me of your recent “victim” thread. Maybe the dealer will accept a return, but with a raw coin maybe not. Maybe the dealer truly thought it was in the condition represented.
A basic lesson here is that unless one knows how to grade raw coins, one should buy already certified/graded coins. They’ll be more expensive but the limited risk and downside are additional benefits.
This and similar comments makes clear you and others similar have no problem playing games with customers with misrepresentation and use the usual and tired arguments that grading is totally subjective and it is possible and even likely to overgrade coins they get blind to the fact that they do have liabilities connected to mistakes and have actual warranties. If a dealer wants to honestly represent his coins and they are uncertified he should either stand behind grades he assigns or call them "AU" or "BU" or even "gem" as ebay permits. I don't know another large business field where sellers can engage in various forms of chicanery without consequences. The transaction here stinks with that level of money at stake with virtually unlimited downside. All the facts surrounding business transactions and contracts matter as much as those with a bias would want to dismiss them.
This was a SIGHT SEEN transaction. That makes a difference in my book.
There is not "unlimited downside". There $2800 downside.
Any jackhole can set up at a show. The chicanery could well be one ignorant collector who thinks he can grade selling to another ignorant collector who thinks he can grade.
If you want guarantees, buy with guarantees.
You should write a book
Please note, I meant that generally. It wasn't directly aimed at you.
I think dealers should stand behind their sales. But there need to be limits. Grading opinions are subjective and any guarantee. In my opinion, needs to be explicit at the time of purchase.
As a part time dealer, part of the issue is even recognizing a coin I sold. Color me cynical, but if I honestly sold you a coin I thought was UNC and you came back to me with a coin labeled AU details, my 1st thought is that you might have switched it out. Some coins are recognizable, others are very generic and forgettable.
I can't know what the dealer was thinking when he sold it. There are bad dealers. There are dealers who can't grade. There are collectors masquerading as dealers. There are also crooks. I'm not going to assume he was the latter.
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
That actually never happens or once in a blue moon. 99% of the time when a dealer prices the coin that high and puts a grade on the holder it is actually maxed out at that. And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty, that was what the Accugrade case ended up being about. Systematic overgrading does have consequencees. If it gets sent to PCGS then NGC and the verdicts are about the same then the fault is not with the "arbitrary" grading services.
I don't understand this response. The coin was raw. The OP saw the coin in hand before purchase. Such purchases, other than counterfeits, don't have any implied guarantee of TPG grade. Accugrade was a grading service not a dealer.
Forget the cleaning part. You seem to be implying that if a dealer seeks a coin as a 64 and it comes back 63 that he is liable for the difference in value.
It's hubristic for a dealer to put "MS63 rb" or MS64 rb" on the coin which are big money grades for a coin like this and then to be absolved of all responsibility for the $2800 transaction. Most dealers have a return policy if a coin is returned in original condition. In this case the dealer likely paid $1000 less than what he sold if for, I doubt he was snookered into paying no problem Unc. money for it.
We have previous discussions on fringe grading services such as PCI in the late re-incarnation that was held liable for bogus grades: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/944394/federal-court-calls-for-damages-of-nearly-1-9-million-for-misrepresented-pci-coins There was a discussion years before that on Accugrade being held liable for bogus grades. How long should people tolerate misrepresentation? They can't get away with it on ebay stating grades of their own, the only such listings permitted are from 4 approved services with real guarantees. Plus on ebay a raw coin cannot be listed for over $2500. A local coin club has a grading committee and will not permit members to put grades on their coins in the monthly auction unless they pass the objective committee.
This reminds me of your recent “victim” thread. Maybe the dealer will accept a return, but with a raw coin maybe not. Maybe the dealer truly thought it was in the condition represented.
A basic lesson here is that unless one knows how to grade raw coins, one should buy already certified/graded coins. They’ll be more expensive but the limited risk and downside are additional benefits.
This and similar comments makes clear you and others similar have no problem playing games with customers with misrepresentation and use the usual and tired arguments that grading is totally subjective and it is possible and even likely to overgrade coins they get blind to the fact that they do have liabilities connected to mistakes and have actual warranties. If a dealer wants to honestly represent his coins and they are uncertified he should either stand behind grades he assigns or call them "AU" or "BU" or even "gem" as ebay permits. I don't know another large business field where sellers can engage in various forms of chicanery without consequences. The transaction here stinks with that level of money at stake with virtually unlimited downside. All the facts surrounding business transactions and contracts matter as much as those with a bias would want to dismiss them.
Nope, not a dealer @logger7 and as I said in your victim thread, I don’t condone unethical business practices. However, as prevalent in much of our society these days, personal accountability and ownership of one’s own actions is absent. Learn and don’t choose to adopt the attitude of being a victim.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Chevyrose You looked at and purchased a coin from a dealer at a coin show, even negotiated a lesser price. Sent it off for a payed opinion. You didn’t get the opinion you wanted. Now you consider using a bull horn if the dealer doesn’t reduce the price of the coin. Is this correct? If it is, where do you think your responsibility lies?
Maybe the dealer should go to your place of work and bull horn you a bit.
I would have thought it would have graded 65RB. But you can not tell if a coin was cleaned from pictures. I am thinking of starting a "details" graded collection as I have bought more than just a few.
PCGS should include a details graded registry set........it would be good for our morale.
@Martin said: @Chevyrose You looked at and purchased a coin from a dealer at a coin show, even negotiated a lesser price. Sent it off for a payed opinion. You didn’t get the opinion you wanted. Now you consider using a bull horn if the dealer doesn’t reduce the price of the coin. Is this correct? If it is, where do you think your responsibility lies?
Maybe the dealer should go to your place of work and bull horn you a bit.
Martin
Yes it seems you were capable of reading this whole thread congratulations
The way I run a business, if someone was unhappy I’d refund any work I did, and make sure the customer was happy rather than have anyone unhappy enough to not recommend me or come back to me for more work
And bill horns are only thirty dollars at harbor freight, very easy to return also
Next thing you know people on here will be like” you bought a bull horn sight seen”
But we’re talking about a rare coin for $2800, what some people don’t make in a month
So if you want to change someone’s opinion, change your own
OP keeps trying to draw parallels to unrelated scenarios (buying a used car, doing work or providing a service to someone).
This is a coin that was in your hand, available for any scrutiny you wanted or needed to give it, prior to purchase. You simply were not experienced enough to properly assess the coin. (That is not criticism, just an observation, and it applies to me, as well).
Your situation is exactly why some people would suggest buying such a coin in slabbed form only.
You have described this purchase as a "gamble". That means you knew there was risk and also the possibility of a big payoff. You were obviously willing to accept the potential payoff, but apparently not the risk of losing.
And as far as I know, you still haven't answered the question about what you would have done if the coin had come back at a higher grade than marked by the dealer. Would you have gone back and given him more money, out of "fairness"?
@JBK said:
OP keeps trying to draw parallels to unrelated scenarios (buying a used car, doing work or providing a service to someone).
This is a coin that was in your hand, available for any scrutiny you wanted or needed to give it, prior to purchase. You simply were not experienced enough to properly assess the coin. (That is not criticism, just an observation, and it applies to me, as well).
Your situation is exactly why some people would suggest buying such a coin in slabbed form only.
You have described this purchase as a "gamble". That means you knew there was risk and also the possibility of a big payoff. You were obviously willing to accept the potential payoff, but apparently not the risk of losing.
And as far as I know, you still haven't answered the question about what you would have done if the coin had come back at a higher grade than marked by the dealer. Would you have gone back and given him more money, out of "fairness"?
Never expected a “big payout” I just hoped it graded AU 58 or AU 55, hoping for ms63 rb was hopelessly optimistic
But yeah if it came back ms64 or ms65? Yeah I would have gone back and blessed him with something, that’s how I roll.
@Martin said: @Chevyrose You looked at and purchased a coin from a dealer at a coin show, even negotiated a lesser price. Sent it off for a payed opinion. You didn’t get the opinion you wanted. Now you consider using a bull horn if the dealer doesn’t reduce the price of the coin. Is this correct? If it is, where do you think your responsibility lies?
Maybe the dealer should go to your place of work and bull horn you a bit.
Martin
Yes it seems you were capable of reading this whole thread congratulations
The way I run a business, if someone was unhappy I’d refund any work I did, and make sure the customer was happy rather than have anyone unhappy enough to not recommend me or come back to me for more work
And bill horns are only thirty dollars at harbor freight, very easy to return also
Next thing you know people on here will be like” you bought a bull horn sight seen”
But we’re talking about a rare coin for $2800, what some people don’t make in a month
So if you want to change someone’s opinion, change your own
So you want to buy a bullhorn, use it and then return it?
@jmlanzaf
I think at least that part of returning the bullhorn to Harbor Freight was meant as a joke.
Anyway, no harm in bringing the coin back to the dealer and showing the results of his submission. If indeed there was a 30 day return policy in place, this thread is a moot point. Now it's merely a lesson on how to comport oneself when things dont go the way we want them to.
I bought a 1909-s Indian Cent in the 1990s raw to complete my grandfather's collection he had bequeathed me. It was in Fine condition, and I was over the moon about owning a "rare" coin. Submitted it to our host around 2010 and it came back as a 1909 with added mint mark. I was devastated, but I learned from the ordeal. Don't buy things you don't understand based on someone's opinion. I didn't even bring it back to the store, which is still open. Too embarassed, and how would they even remember the transaction at that point? My bad. I'll never repeat that mistake, which was worth the $300 I naively lost on a doctored coin.
Good luck.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@DCW said: @jmlanzaf
I think at least that part of returning the bullhorn to Harbor Freight was meant as a joke.
Anyway, no harm in bringing the coin back to the dealer and showing the results of his submission. If indeed there was a 30 day return policy in place, this thread is a moot point. Now it's merely a lesson on how to comport oneself when things dont go the way we want them to.
I bought a 1909-s Indian Cent in the 1990s raw to complete my grandfather's collection he had bequeathed me. It was in Fine condition, and I was over the moon about owning a "rare" coin. Submitted it to our host around 2010 and it came back as a 1909 with added mint mark. I was devastated, but I learned from the ordeal. Don't buy things you don't understand based on someone's opinion. I didn't even bring it back to the store, which is still open. Too embarassed, and how would they even remember the transaction at that point? My bad. I'll never repeat that mistake, which was worth the $300 I naively lost on a doctored coin.
Good luck.
But its almost (almost) worth it for the story you get to tell.
Anyway, no harm in bringing the coin back to the dealer and showing the results of his submission. If indeed there was a 30 day return policy in place, this thread is a moot point.
I've seen lots of listings where the return policy is contingent on the coin still being in the original holder. I suppose that avoids people trying to get a higher grade and then returning if unsuccessful. It also avoids switched coins.
In this case, it seems the OP was looking for (willing to accept) a lower grade, but the cleaning was the complicating factor.
Anyway, no harm in bringing the coin back to the dealer and showing the results of his submission. If indeed there was a 30 day return policy in place, this thread is a moot point.
I've seen lots of listings where the return policy is contingent on the coin still being in the original holder. I suppose that avoids people trying to get a higher grade and then returning if unsuccessful. It also avoids switched coins.
In this case, it seems the OP was looking for (willing to accept) a lower grade, but the cleaning was the complicating factor.
I don't buy for one second he would be happy it would be a straight AU...2800 is well above what a PCGS certified straight AU example would go for.
Comments
Depends. Assuming this is an in-person transaction at a show, if I guaranteed that it would grade MS63RB, I'd refund the purchase price if the coin was returned in the same condition as it was sold. Otherwise, all sales final unless some other arrangements were agreed to at the time of sale.
I'm just reminding you what you agreed to when you sent the coin for grading.
So the engine on my car blew
All sales are final
Pound salt
This is becoming redundant. I’m sure the dealer will work with me or he’ll lose some sales that day
I’ll let you know how it goes
I'm sure you'll get exactly what you deserve. Peace out.
Assume it was a transaction between two adult males with one ounce each of integrity
I mean I feel 3-4 hundred bucks back. Meet in the middle, no hard feelings
seems reasonable
What was agreed to? I can't give you an answer without that information.
OP, you are free to share your opinion with the universe, but you can also be accused of slander and/or thrown off the property.
You examined the coin and bought it. Maybe stick to slabbed coins if you don't have sufficient skills or experience to make an informed decision.
My first impression on seeing the first photos was AU details.
Bad example. That coin is EXACTLY the same as when you bought it. It didn't blow an engine.
If you were the dealer, how would you even know it was the same coin? How would he know that you didn't mess with it?
In these parts, we call it "tuition ". We all pay it and we eat the humble pie like a man.
Geez. A sale between two adults is a sale between two adults. Move on or ask for a refund. Don’t be put out if he say no. And be happy if he say yes
That easy
Martin
Your engine didn't blow. Unless the dealer broke into you house and cleaned the coin, the coin didn't change. It is as it was.
Sorry but I think pcgs has some credibility
Is it the same coin or not? I’m confused
Yes, lots of people respect their opinion.
Did you know they offer a reconsideration service that people use when they disagree with PCGS's opinion? And that sometimes, PCGS agrees that their previous opinion was incorrect?
The sale of a ms63 rb 55/55 for cash
Dealer offers a 30 return policy
I’m not even asking for that
Just to meet in the middle a little more
Do you always have this much trouble answering questions?
I have heard of that even used it successfully. Another 1955/55 example I own went from ms63 rb to ms64 rb and my 1909s rb went from 66 to 66+
Have you had any coins go up during reconsideration?
If you have why don’t you post one
You're confused about what? How is the dealer supposed to recognize a coin weeks or months later? Try to see it from his perspective.
The metaphor really is that you bought a car. Your girlfriend decided she didn't like the color of the car and so you want a refund.
What is a "ms63 rb 55/55"?
Then return it for a refund.
Then ask for that. Maybe he'll agree. Maybe not.
Only when the person asking them doesn't explain himself clearly.
I've never used the service.
I hate to pile on, but you took the risk. Dealer can call it anything he wants, but you BOUGHT after inspecting it yourself. Even from your photos, the coin never looked mint state to my eyes. And to be perfectly honest, it has an unnatural color indicative of the cleaning. Was hoping it was just the photos, but it is what it is.
Trying to embarrass the dealer at his table is going to make you look like the fool, not him. It will also get you escorted out of the show rather promptly.
The blown engine on the car comparison is also ridiculous. You bought a cleaned coin, compared it to your MS64RB example, and crossed your fingers it was the same grade. It wasn't.
We all sympathize with you, I'm sure. But you are owed nothing from that dealer.
Don't delude yourself.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Pcgs calls 1955 doubled dies 1955/55
Or 55/55
Ms as in mint state
Rb as in red-brown
Are you sure you weren’t a stalling litigation lawyer in a past life?
Yes. Let's say they are right. It doesn't change the flaw in your metaphor nor YOUR responsibility for not recognizing a cleaned coin. Two adults looked at a coin, agreed on the grade, and agreed on the price. Period.
It was a sight seen deal. If it came back 65, would you run back to the dealer to pay him more? What would you say to the dealer if he came back to you and asked you for more money? You want him to carry all the risk and you want to carry none.
This was witty and gave me a laugh
All debating aside I may not even mention it to the dealer
The coin is great even if it’s cleaned or not
When asked to explain I may give an opinion. Some may or may not agree
But honestly learning a lot
Good conversation, opinions, debates
I think it possibly might not have been. The OP wrote:
"I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened."
"Advertised it as" sounds like he could have bought the coin online from someone who always attends a particular show. Who says "advertised it as" for how a coin at a show is graded? Hard to be sure what he meant, though.
That’s one side of the coin for sure
I think "advertised it as" refers to the labeling. If it was an online transaction, he wouldn't need to wait for the next show to contact the dealer.
No, he wouldn't. I'd question the effectiveness of a megaphone in that case though.
edited to add... OP says "Dealer offers a 30 return policy", I've been going to coin shows for over fifty years and don't remember a single dealer advertising a return policy on purchases.
This.
Somewhat. The OP now has the benefit of this entire thread. So...that's not nothing!
And you can send a coin in a plastic tomb to another grading company and it can downgrade...so there are downside risks all the same. Perhaps not as great, but there are still some.
I went back and refreshed my memory on the early posts to the thread.
The OP had a raw 55/55, was confident of a grade and that it hadn't been cleaned. He also rejected the notion that he should stick to slabbed coins, insisting that learning how to grade (and authenticate) was something he wanted to do for himself from the beginning as a collector.
Then the coin came back...
It seems the OP wants a free education, with free tuition. If he comes out ahead, he's a winner. If he makes a mistake, he wants the seller to pay for it.
Early on the OP wrote:
So, he admittedly gambled, he acknowledged the possibility of failing, but ultimately wants the dealer to provide a safety net.
If you make a scene at the dealer's table as you've proposed, I'll bet you'll be blocked as a customer by everyone there.
Yeah, the whole tenor of the OP changed when he got the PCGS results. Numerous forum members said AU details but he didn't agree, obviously.
30-day return policy and you got your PCGS submission within that time?
my last submission was closer to 5 months.
Your blown engine analogy sucks, because the dealer has no idea what was done to the car since it left the lot.
A teenager driving in 2nd gear at 6000 rpm would do that or an oil change without replacing the drain plug.
The same could be said of a coin after it leaves a dealers table. If you wanted a PCGS slabbed coin, you could have bought one or even had that dealer submit it with purchase contingent on a certain grade.
My largest losses have come from purchasing raw or 3rd world slab hiding problem.
I’m betting he submitted it Express.
This and similar comments makes clear you and others similar have no problem playing games with customers with misrepresentation and use the usual and tired arguments that grading is totally subjective and it is possible and even likely to overgrade coins they get blind to the fact that they do have liabilities connected to mistakes and have actual warranties. If a dealer wants to honestly represent his coins and they are uncertified he should either stand behind grades he assigns or call them "AU" or "BU" or even "gem" as ebay permits. I don't know another large business field where sellers can engage in various forms of chicanery without consequences. The transaction here stinks with that level of money at stake with virtually unlimited downside. All the facts surrounding business transactions and contracts matter as much as those with a bias would want to dismiss them.
Yup took a risk
Dealer advertised mint state 63 red brown 1955/55 for $3200
He took $2800
I knew it could be a risk
I also trusted him as a dealer
And still do
I feel a couple hundred back and I keep the coin
I’ll talk to him at the next show in 2 weeks
My logic isn’t crazy
Insert @MasonG regurgitation of my megaphone comment
This was a SIGHT SEEN transaction. That makes a difference in my book.
There is not "unlimited downside". There $2800 downside.
Any jackhole can set up at a show. The chicanery could well be one ignorant collector who thinks he can grade selling to another ignorant collector who thinks he can grade.
If you want guarantees, buy with guarantees.
You should write a book
Please note, I meant that generally. It wasn't directly aimed at you.
I think dealers should stand behind their sales. But there need to be limits. Grading opinions are subjective and any guarantee. In my opinion, needs to be explicit at the time of purchase.
As a part time dealer, part of the issue is even recognizing a coin I sold. Color me cynical, but if I honestly sold you a coin I thought was UNC and you came back to me with a coin labeled AU details, my 1st thought is that you might have switched it out. Some coins are recognizable, others are very generic and forgettable.
I can't know what the dealer was thinking when he sold it. There are bad dealers. There are dealers who can't grade. There are collectors masquerading as dealers. There are also crooks. I'm not going to assume he was the latter.
Nope, not a dealer @logger7 and as I said in your victim thread, I don’t condone unethical business practices. However, as prevalent in much of our society these days, personal accountability and ownership of one’s own actions is absent. Learn and don’t choose to adopt the attitude of being a victim.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Chevyrose You looked at and purchased a coin from a dealer at a coin show, even negotiated a lesser price. Sent it off for a payed opinion. You didn’t get the opinion you wanted. Now you consider using a bull horn if the dealer doesn’t reduce the price of the coin. Is this correct? If it is, where do you think your responsibility lies?
Maybe the dealer should go to your place of work and bull horn you a bit.
Martin
I would have thought it would have graded 65RB. But you can not tell if a coin was cleaned from pictures. I am thinking of starting a "details" graded collection as I have bought more than just a few.
PCGS should include a details graded registry set........it would be good for our morale.
OINK
Yes it seems you were capable of reading this whole thread congratulations
The way I run a business, if someone was unhappy I’d refund any work I did, and make sure the customer was happy rather than have anyone unhappy enough to not recommend me or come back to me for more work
And bill horns are only thirty dollars at harbor freight, very easy to return also
Next thing you know people on here will be like” you bought a bull horn sight seen”
But we’re talking about a rare coin for $2800, what some people don’t make in a month
So if you want to change someone’s opinion, change your own
OP keeps trying to draw parallels to unrelated scenarios (buying a used car, doing work or providing a service to someone).
This is a coin that was in your hand, available for any scrutiny you wanted or needed to give it, prior to purchase. You simply were not experienced enough to properly assess the coin. (That is not criticism, just an observation, and it applies to me, as well).
Your situation is exactly why some people would suggest buying such a coin in slabbed form only.
You have described this purchase as a "gamble". That means you knew there was risk and also the possibility of a big payoff. You were obviously willing to accept the potential payoff, but apparently not the risk of losing.
And as far as I know, you still haven't answered the question about what you would have done if the coin had come back at a higher grade than marked by the dealer. Would you have gone back and given him more money, out of "fairness"?
Never expected a “big payout” I just hoped it graded AU 58 or AU 55, hoping for ms63 rb was hopelessly optimistic
But yeah if it came back ms64 or ms65? Yeah I would have gone back and blessed him with something, that’s how I roll.
The dealer had it marked MS63 but you were hoping for AU58 or AU55?
Then you already knew the dealer was either incorrect or dishonest.
I give you credit for being more accurate in your grading assessment than he was, but I just didn't understand the subsequent expectations.
So you want to buy a bullhorn, use it and then return it?
I think I see a pattern here.
@jmlanzaf
I think at least that part of returning the bullhorn to Harbor Freight was meant as a joke.
Anyway, no harm in bringing the coin back to the dealer and showing the results of his submission. If indeed there was a 30 day return policy in place, this thread is a moot point. Now it's merely a lesson on how to comport oneself when things dont go the way we want them to.
I bought a 1909-s Indian Cent in the 1990s raw to complete my grandfather's collection he had bequeathed me. It was in Fine condition, and I was over the moon about owning a "rare" coin. Submitted it to our host around 2010 and it came back as a 1909 with added mint mark. I was devastated, but I learned from the ordeal. Don't buy things you don't understand based on someone's opinion. I didn't even bring it back to the store, which is still open. Too embarassed, and how would they even remember the transaction at that point? My bad. I'll never repeat that mistake, which was worth the $300 I naively lost on a doctored coin.
Good luck.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
But its almost (almost) worth it for the story you get to tell.
I've seen lots of listings where the return policy is contingent on the coin still being in the original holder. I suppose that avoids people trying to get a higher grade and then returning if unsuccessful. It also avoids switched coins.
In this case, it seems the OP was looking for (willing to accept) a lower grade, but the cleaning was the complicating factor.
I don't buy for one second he would be happy it would be a straight AU...2800 is well above what a PCGS certified straight AU example would go for.