Federal Court calls for damages of nearly $1.9 million for misrepresented PCI coins

airplanenut

Link to story

Certainly an interesting case, especially if it sets a precedent for future ones.

derryb

Fixed linky

PCI overgraded coins that a sister company sold as investments?

cmerlo1

I'm amazed that there's still a PCI. I thought they went under years ago and became DGS...

EDIT: DGS bought what was left of them after they went under. They were not related to PCI other than the holders.

vplite

Outstanding!

CaptHenway

Buy the coin, not the holder.

messydesk

As far as I know, PCI never became DGS. DGS bought slab molds and such from the then most recently belly-up reincarnation of PCI. DGS likely suffered from guilt by association in the marketplace as a result.

cmerlo1

<< <i>As far as I know, PCI never became DGS. DGS bought slab molds and such from the then most recently belly-up reincarnation of PCI. DGS likely suffered from guilt by association in the marketplace as a result. >>



I stand corrected.

PhillyJoe

Look for ebay sellers to put this in the description "PCI graded this one right!" just as you used to see in ACG listings.

Now where did I put my 1964 Kennedy Accented Hair PCI PR69 Deep Cameo? I'll check the junk drawer first.

mrearlygold

It would be even better to see these people get jail time. Prison time. Long time.

Any chance of that happening now that fraud has been proven in a court of law?

MsMorrisine

What do I do with PCI in the master list?

19Lyds

<< <i>Buy the coin, not the holder. >>

Excellent advice Tom but these people were buying for investment purposes and really had their full faith in the folks that sold them the coins. And in 2011 no less.

Sad as it is, there is no recourse for the truly ignorant but this case sets a precedent.

TopographicOceans

That makes PCGS a qualified expert in the eyes of the Federal Courts

I'd never buy any PCI coin that was more than a couple hundred dollars and pretty much disregard their grade.

I understand the over-grading and cleaning, but was surprised about the one counterfeit MS64 $2.50 gold.

DollarAfterDollar

Sounds like they thought they found a sucker (actually, they did) but when he died and the heirs had things appraised, there was something amiss.

Ooopsie.....

MrEureka

Now all they have to do is collect on the judgment.

SanctionII

Obtaining a judgment can be very difficult.

Collecting a judgment from a judgment debtor who can not pay or will not pay is substantially more difficult. Many times the judgment creditor has nothing more than a judgment (on a sheet of paper) that can be placed into a frame and hung on a wall.

Davideo

<< <i>Obtaining a judgment can be very difficult.

Collecting a judgment from a judgment debtor who can not pay or will not pay is substantially more difficult. Many times the judgment creditor has nothing more than a judgment (on a sheet of paper) that can be placed into a frame and hung on a wall. >>



Sadly very true. The guilty party could have just blown all their money in Vegas can't/won't pay anything.

TwoSides2aCoin

Couple buys investment coins for $800K , worth only $200K. Like shopping on television late at night.

AUandAG

This should scare the heck out of dozens of other grading companies....

be well,

bob

CaptHenway

Problem
Coin
Inside

astrorat

<< <i>That makes PCGS a qualified expert in the eyes of the Federal Courts >>

I do not believe a business can be considered a qualified expert. I am pretty sure it has to be an individual.

koynekwest

Professionally
Certified
Ineptitude

Crackout

Primary
Coin-Grader
Incompetent

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>What do I do with PCI in the master list? >>



DELETE DELETE DELETE then DELETE some more!

Zoins

Good tip from the article:



<< <i>When you’re buying or selling coins, there’s an important lesson for the public to remember. If you don’t know rare coins, you’d better know your rare coin dealer. Members of the Professional Numismatists Guild must adhere to a strict Code of Ethics in the buying and selling of numismatic merchandise. The dealer who sold coins to Ms. Pereida was not a PNG member >>

dib

I'd be lying if I said I hated PCI. I've had at least a 1 point upgrade on all the 7 PCI coins I've cracked out and resubmitted to PCGS and NGC, so I can't complain.

But with that being said, yes, the vast majority of PCI graded coins are trash/overgraded, and I have seen a counterfeit or two... or 5. Buy the coin not the holder.

leothelyon

No
Good
Coin

pf70collector

I have one PCI coin. A 1972 PF 69. Not worth much. something close

LanceNewmanOCC

.
i didn't read all the posts but i do recall a precedent(s) being set for suits against tpg/individuals for improperly grading coins/collectables. - although, perhaps it/they were settled privately.

an archive search may yield results here as i think this is where i read about it/them.
.

Raufus

Glad the crooks wrer nailed.
Ironically, a lot of hassle but turned out to be a fantastic investment after all given the amount of the settlement.

WillieBoyd2

One attorney in the case was R. Lyn Stevens of Stevens Baldo Freeman & Lighty in Beaumont, Texas.
He has a website "www.coinfraud.com" which indicates his specialty.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>Glad the crooks wrer nailed.
Ironically, a lot of hassle but turned out to be a fantastic investment after all given the amount of the settlement. >>



This is why lawyers are better investments than coins.

ScarsdaleCoin

The implication could be stretched to coin dealers that sell raw coins .. but I think this case is the fact of disclosure relating to the fact that the owner of the selling coin company also owned the grading company... as posted this does have interesting implications on many fronts

ricko

Nice to win the case....however, I doubt if the injured party will ever see a cent of the award. Cheers, RickO

LanceNewmanOCC

.

from coinfraud

"Some dealers engaging in coin fraud or precious metals fraud grade their coins accurately, but overprice the coins and/or mislead consumers about

the value of the coins. For example, a dealer may charge $2000 for an accurately graded $20 Double Eagle gold coin even though the actual retail value

of the coin may only be $750"

---------------------

that sounds like a margin i've seen some charge and call it retail for an average eye appeal coin or one that is pq, toned, variety or beaned etc. not sure

where fraud/overcharging/retail/premium etc are delineated but 2000 for a 750 in a lot of instances is not fraud, sometimes it is.

i literally had a dealer tell me just last evening that he had a guy came to him at a show a few decades ago, to his booth, (he stated to the dealer at the end

of their conversation) that a collection he put together for give or take $225k, raw, for coins that were purported by the seller to be ms65-ms67 etc and in

reality, they were au/slider/obvious low ms. long-story short, the guy telling me this stated he made an offer only after the gentleman with the coins

absolutely insisted he give the price no matter what it was and was less than 1/10th of what he paid and it was the highest offer of all the dealers he

visited. if all that is true, that is insane. lots to say about the whole thing but i won't go into it this time.

not the first time i've heard stories like this and from what i've seen from a very small handful of dealers/sellers at shows, it doesn't sound un-plausible

to me.

lest us not forget trends, run-ups, subjectivity, objectivity, opinions, various stickers, etc.

sure wish i could be at arms-length from a case like this to evaluate the coins/grades/prices to see what kind of basis is used and just where the lines are

drawn and if it us true, i'm glad for the verdict.

now that i think about it, pci may have been one of the cases discussed here previously. for some reason messy's comment about pci/dgs is ringing a strong bell.
.

roadrunner

Brings back memories of the Accugrade lawsuits a few years back. IIRC, didn't ACG pretty much sully up the majority of the opposition and walk away the "apparent" winner?

Buy the lawyer, not the holder .

rays

<< <i>Obtaining a judgment can be very difficult.

Collecting a judgment from a judgment debtor who can not pay or will not pay is substantially more difficult. Many times the judgment creditor has nothing more than a judgment (on a sheet of paper) that can be placed into a frame and hung on a wall. >>



I would think the plaintiffs would take into account the defendant's assets when considering to pursue the lawsuit.

DennisH

Reading this put a smile on my face that is going to last all weekend!

MsMorrisine

<< <i>

<< <i>What do I do with PCI in the master list? >>



DELETE DELETE DELETE then DELETE some more! >>



I'm going to ask for a double and mention the contact info is in Wantagh, NY and they say "under new management" is there a yet another new owner or are these running it now the same people in the suit?



Their "About" page says:
September 12, 2012 The New PCI


The lawsuit says one defendant sold PCI is 2011. I can't locate records of current officers of PCI.

Cougar1978

good article, thanks for sharing

johnny9434

<< <i>Problem
Coin
Inside >>



Darned
Grading
Service

SanctionII

The information present on the linked CoinFraud website is pretty comprehensive in its description of the types of conduct that takes place in market place that could very well be viewed by a court as "fraudlent".

I expect that much of this conduct takes place, at varying dollar levels. I wonder how the lawyers behind the Coinfraud website ended up practicing in what is a niche area? I also wonder if they handle coinfraud cases exclusively or if they handle other types of legal work? If they handle coinfraud cases exclusively, I wonder what their business model is and if their practice is self sustaining on this type of work alone.

If these lawyers have the skill set necessary to effectively and efficiently get positive results from clients who have lost money due to CoinFraud, they may end up seeing an uptick in their workload as word about them and their successes spreads in the collecting community.

koynekwest

Need
Glasses
Charlie?

Astigmatism
Cataracts
and
Glaucoma

I
Can't
Grade!

koynekwest

Astigmatism,
Cataracts,
&
Glaucoma

bolivarshagnasty

Note to self.................... don't do any investing with Corpus Christi stockbroker Bonnie Pereida.

If she was inclined to spend 750k on coins she knew nothing about, imagine what the wolves of Wall Street would do to her.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>The information present on the linked CoinFraud website is pretty comprehensive in its description of the types of conduct that takes place in market place that could very well be viewed by a court as "fraudlent".

I expect that much of this conduct takes place, at varying dollar levels. I wonder how the lawyers behind the Coinfraud website ended up practicing in what is a niche area? I also wonder if they handle coinfraud cases exclusively or if they handle other types of legal work? If they handle coinfraud cases exclusively, I wonder what their business model is and if their practice is self sustaining on this type of work alone.

If these lawyers have the skill set necessary to effectively and efficiently get positive results from clients who have lost money due to CoinFraud, they may end up seeing an uptick in their workload as word about them and their successes spreads in the collecting community. >>



I'm starting to re think my trade. Maybe I should go back to selling cars. People look at me funny when I tell them it's $3 for a presidential dollar.

Frankcoins

In 2010, some coins in fake PCI slabs made to look like the old 10-digit serial number slabs that were strictly graded
started showing up on eBay from seller NYCOINMART. They were generally cleaned AU better date Morgans and US
gold coins...carefully chosen to be the coins that jump 10 fold in value from slider to true Unc. Most of them were
graded MS63 to MS65. While imitating the holders from 1992, the distinctive font -- with the 6 and 9 having straight
tails -- was incorrect and the security microprinting was indicative of a counterfeit

Real reverse label


Fake reverse label


Real 1993 vintage slab with typical UNDERGRADED coin





Front label of NYCOINMART item



and the supposedly MS65 coin





Photos by John Bradley on vamworld who first reported these

And the proof that these coins and the coins referenced in the lawsuit are from the same source... when these
were being discussed in rec.collecting.coins someone named "Joey" made this post DEFENDING these overgraded coins

PCA COLLECTABLES 516.833.5695 for all of you PCI needs , I have been
buying from Anthony Dellauniversipa and everything have been great . I
bought some ms67 morgan dollars for 1/2 the price they normaly sell
for . I also understand that his partner Kevin McNerney who also owns
PCI Grading and NYCOINMART is selling these coins he graded on his web
site (http://sales.uaamerica.calls.net/) . This guy is legit and has
been grading coins for years , he usto own NTC and also NAS grading .
Stop bothering this guy and drop the issue . And if you have any
qustions just call them up and ask them . So all in all the slabs
arent fake and I love all the coins they sold me . I mean come on ,
you dont like ms67 morgan dollars at half price?

When "Longtime owner Kevin" suddenly became "Longtime owner Vince" on the
NYCOINMART website, "Joey" made one final appearance

(spelling and grammar as written)

Vince is Kevins partner they have been running diffrent coin rooms
and using diffrent company names for years . Kevin reacently sold
Sunrise Numismatics inc to his life time buddy Michael Destefano and
Anthony Dellauniversipa , witch i dont understand , because Anthony
owns PCA Collectables , so why would you want two companies doing the
same thing ?? Now another friend of Kevin , Dennis Daidone (grader)He
is a member of the ANA and a graduate from the ANA grading school in
Jacksonville Florida. Dennis has worked as an advisor for other major
grading services and has and eye for perfection."


so I know Dennis did the grading for Kevin when they owned NAS
Grading , but I dont know if he is inloved with PCI , but from what i
understand he has been with him since NTC days . I think these guys
are great! They are doing nothing wrong , I mean is not this how NGC
and PCGS got started ? Everyone out there who knows coins , knows
these guys are and they are connected with everyone , they are ok in
book. A+ guys

GrumpyEd

<< <i>If she was inclined to spend 750k on coins she knew nothing about, imagine what the wolves of Wall Street would do to her. >>

MsMorrisine

PCI has been removed from the list NOT because of the lawsuit. The site was sold. The site even states "new management." This is the reason. They will have to find their way back onto the forum map.

djdilliodon

Pathetic
Coin
Grading
Service

All kidding aside, PCI is about 20 min from me and guess what? I've never even noticed lol!