My first guess at a glance would have been a straight graded 64RB, bit I do see after a little more study the slightest bit of wear (flatness) on the jaw.
AU58.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
Up for auction on Ebay today. Opening bid $2700. That's an expensive tuition. I won't buy an uncertified coin for over $100. I go to Community College...Not Ivy League.
@RLSnapper said:
Up for auction on Ebay today. Opening bid $2700. That's an expensive tuition. I won't buy an uncertified coin for over $100. I go to Community College...Not Ivy League.
$2700 seems a bit high for an AU, but I've not been looking for these
Years ago a jewelry store owner came in to a show wanting to sell a 55 ddo because he needed a lawyer for his arrested son he said. None of the dealers would take a chance on it at $2K or so. I did thought. It was a nice coin with a lot of luster and originality, came back from NGC as an MS62 rb. And I thought I was hopelessly naive with some of my purchases. That's way too much for a probable AU, or Unc details coin.
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
@logger7 said:
Years ago a jewelry store owner came in to a show wanting to sell a 55 ddo because he needed a lawyer for his arrested son he said. None of the dealers would take a chance on it at $2K or so. I did thought. It was a nice coin with a lot of luster and originality, came back from NGC as an MS62 rb. And I thought I was hopelessly naive with some of my purchases. That's way too much for a probable AU, or Unc details coin.
Oh you’ve never ate humble pie before? Cmon I’m sure you’ve tried it? Perhaps you have too much pride to admit
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb.
@Chevyrose said:
I paid $2800 for the coin
A bit of a gamble
But if I could never fail I wouldn’t try
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb.
@Chevyrose said:
I paid $2800 for the coin
A bit of a gamble
But if I could never fail I wouldn’t try
Grade wise gamble yes
Being sold a cleaned coin when if wasn’t advertised as such? Unacceptable behavior
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb.
@Chevyrose said:
I paid $2800 for the coin
A bit of a gamble
But if I could never fail I wouldn’t try
Grade wise gamble yes
Being sold a cleaned coin when if wasn’t advertised as such? Unacceptable behavior
Grades are opinions. Send a coin in, NGC says "hairlines". Same coin, PCGS straight grades. Which one is right?
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb.
@Chevyrose said:
I paid $2800 for the coin
A bit of a gamble
But if I could never fail I wouldn’t try
Grade wise gamble yes
Being sold a cleaned coin when if wasn’t advertised as such? Unacceptable behavior
You SAW the coin. You didn't think it was cleaned, maybe he didn't either.
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
That actually never happens or once in a blue moon. 99% of the time when a dealer prices the coin that high and puts a grade on the holder it is actually maxed out at that. And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty, that was what the Accugrade case ended up being about. Systematic overgrading does have consequencees. If it gets sent to PCGS then NGC and the verdicts are about the same then the fault is not with the "arbitrary" grading services.
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
That actually never happens or once in a blue moon. 99% of the time when a dealer prices the coin that high and puts a grade on the holder it is actually maxed out at that. And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty, that was what the Accugrade case ended up being about. Systematic overgrading does have consequencees. If it gets sent to PCGS then NGC and the verdicts are about the same then the fault is not with the "arbitrary" grading services.
I don't understand this response. The coin was raw. The OP saw the coin in hand before purchase. Such purchases, other than counterfeits, don't have any implied guarantee of TPG grade. Accugrade was a grading service not a dealer.
Forget the cleaning part. You seem to be implying that if a dealer seeks a coin as a 64 and it comes back 63 that he is liable for the difference in value.
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
I understand why you are upset but you also should take responsibility for taking such a big risk on a raw coin without the knowledge necessary to evaluate such risk.
Edited to add: I disagree with your threatened megaphone tantrum.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Oh you’ve never ate humble pie before? Cmon I’m sure you’ve tried it? Perhaps you have too much pride to admit
We have all had humble pie here at one time or another. I bought many cleaned coins before I could detect them. It's a horrible feeling, but it has helped me learn every time.
You got some more "experience." Either spend more time to accurately grade, or only buy certified. This was a hard coin to detect, but you were paying top dollar for a raw coin. From the pics, the cleaning seemed tough to pick up, but I could see wear. And with that mark on the obverse, there was no way this coin was going to be a steal for you.
And handle the dealer maturely. Talk to him, see his response. Was it an honest mistake? How many dealers at this show are going to want to have any interaction with you if you stand outside with a friggin bullhorn?
I have always eaten the humble pie. I always suck it up, as the error was mine.
@jmlanzaf said:
I don't understand this response. The coin was raw. The OP saw the coin in hand before purchase. Such purchases, other than counterfeits, don't have any implied guarantee of TPG grade. Accugrade was a grading service not a dealer.
Forget the cleaning part. You seem to be implying that if a dealer seeks a coin as a 64 and it comes back 63 that he is liable for the difference in value.
Using this argument ("And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty..."), everyone who sent an NGC graded coin to PCGS and got a lower grade is owed a refund by NGC. Seems silly.
It's always a shame when one pays real money for a coin, then is disappointed.
But I agree with those who said that the doctrine of "caveat emptor" applies to a purchase/sale of a raw coin in an in-person transaction. There is no implied warranty from the seller, and an explicit warranty only if you get in it writing, signed by the seller.
Which is why I won't spend real money (however I define that) on a raw coin.
I will use this opportunity to reiterate my pet peeve about labeling coins that have been subtly cleaned as DOA. I agree that one that has truly been destroyed should be labeled (and treated) as such, but one about which reasonable, knowledgeable people can disagree about whether it really is destroyed should not be killed by a TPG, IMO. I would much rather that the marketplace decided what to do with those coins, rather that a TPG consigning it to coin purgatory.
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
That actually never happens or once in a blue moon. 99% of the time when a dealer prices the coin that high and puts a grade on the holder it is actually maxed out at that. And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty, that was what the Accugrade case ended up being about. Systematic overgrading does have consequencees. If it gets sent to PCGS then NGC and the verdicts are about the same then the fault is not with the "arbitrary" grading services.
I don't understand this response. The coin was raw. The OP saw the coin in hand before purchase. Such purchases, other than counterfeits, don't have any implied guarantee of TPG grade. Accugrade was a grading service not a dealer.
Forget the cleaning part. You seem to be implying that if a dealer seeks a coin as a 64 and it comes back 63 that he is liable for the difference in value.
It's hubristic for a dealer to put "MS63 rb" or MS64 rb" on the coin which are big money grades for a coin like this and then to be absolved of all responsibility for the $2800 transaction. Most dealers have a return policy if a coin is returned in original condition. In this case the dealer likely paid $1000 less than what he sold if for, I doubt he was snookered into paying no problem Unc. money for it.
We have previous discussions on fringe grading services such as PCI in the late re-incarnation that was held liable for bogus grades: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/944394/federal-court-calls-for-damages-of-nearly-1-9-million-for-misrepresented-pci-coins There was a discussion years before that on Accugrade being held liable for bogus grades. How long should people tolerate misrepresentation? They can't get away with it on ebay stating grades of their own, the only such listings permitted are from 4 approved services with real guarantees. Plus on ebay a raw coin cannot be listed for over $2500. A local coin club has a grading committee and will not permit members to put grades on their coins in the monthly auction unless they pass the objective committee.
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
That actually never happens or once in a blue moon. 99% of the time when a dealer prices the coin that high and puts a grade on the holder it is actually maxed out at that. And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty, that was what the Accugrade case ended up being about. Systematic overgrading does have consequencees. If it gets sent to PCGS then NGC and the verdicts are about the same then the fault is not with the "arbitrary" grading services.
I don't understand this response. The coin was raw. The OP saw the coin in hand before purchase. Such purchases, other than counterfeits, don't have any implied guarantee of TPG grade. Accugrade was a grading service not a dealer.
Forget the cleaning part. You seem to be implying that if a dealer seeks a coin as a 64 and it comes back 63 that he is liable for the difference in value.
It's hubristic for a dealer to put "MS63 rb" or MS64 rb" on the coin which are big money grades for a coin like this and then to be absolved of all responsibility for the $2800 transaction. Most dealers have a return policy if a coin is returned in original condition. In this case the dealer likely paid $1000 less than what he sold if for, I doubt he was snookered into paying no problem Unc. money for it.
We have previous discussions on fringe grading services such as PCI in the late re-incarnation that was held liable for bogus grades: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/944394/federal-court-calls-for-damages-of-nearly-1-9-million-for-misrepresented-pci-coins There was a discussion years before that on Accugrade being held liable for bogus grades. How long should people tolerate misrepresentation? They can't get away with it on ebay stating grades of their own, the only such listings permitted are from 4 approved services with real guarantees. Plus on ebay a raw coin cannot be listed for over $2500. A local coin club has a grading committee and will not permit members to put grades on their coins in the monthly auction unless they pass the objective committee.
This reminds me of your recent “victim” thread. Maybe the dealer will accept a return, but with a raw coin maybe not. Maybe the dealer truly thought it was in the condition represented.
A basic lesson here is that unless one knows how to grade raw coins, one should buy already certified/graded coins. They’ll be more expensive but the limited risk and downside are additional benefits.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@logger7 said:
Most dealers have a return policy if a coin is returned in original condition.
They do, for sight-unseen purchases. In person purchases at a show are typically final when you walk away from the table unless specific arrangements have been agreed to.
@logger7 said:
In this case the dealer likely paid $1000 less than what he sold if for, I doubt he was snookered into paying no problem Unc. money for it.
What the dealer paid has nothing to do with this particular deal.
When I see certain Large Cents that are valuable varieties and represented as such not in a TPG I wonder why? I usually figure the dealer has submitted the coin and it came back as cleaned etc. so it was cracked out and is being sold raw. I would bet my last nickel that the dealer of this 55 DDO probably cracked it out of a details holder. It's an easy way to make a quick buck.
You should crack it out and list it on Ebay as" Found in an old collection." You will probably get most of your money back. You are not getting jack back from the dealer.
@RLSnapper said:
When I see certain Large Cents that are valuable varieties and represented as such not in a TPG I wonder why? I usually figure the dealer has submitted the coin and it came back as cleaned etc. so it was cracked out and is being sold raw.
Many large cent collectors prefer their coins raw and so one shouldn’t assume the dealer who sells such material (particularly specialists) are trying to screw the collector.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Chevyrose said:
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
That actually never happens or once in a blue moon. 99% of the time when a dealer prices the coin that high and puts a grade on the holder it is actually maxed out at that. And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty, that was what the Accugrade case ended up being about. Systematic overgrading does have consequencees. If it gets sent to PCGS then NGC and the verdicts are about the same then the fault is not with the "arbitrary" grading services.
I don't understand this response. The coin was raw. The OP saw the coin in hand before purchase. Such purchases, other than counterfeits, don't have any implied guarantee of TPG grade. Accugrade was a grading service not a dealer.
Forget the cleaning part. You seem to be implying that if a dealer seeks a coin as a 64 and it comes back 63 that he is liable for the difference in value.
It's hubristic for a dealer to put "MS63 rb" or MS64 rb" on the coin which are big money grades for a coin like this and then to be absolved of all responsibility for the $2800 transaction. Most dealers have a return policy if a coin is returned in original condition. In this case the dealer likely paid $1000 less than what he sold if for, I doubt he was snookered into paying no problem Unc. money for it.
We have previous discussions on fringe grading services such as PCI in the late re-incarnation that was held liable for bogus grades: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/944394/federal-court-calls-for-damages-of-nearly-1-9-million-for-misrepresented-pci-coins There was a discussion years before that on Accugrade being held liable for bogus grades. How long should people tolerate misrepresentation? They can't get away with it on ebay stating grades of their own, the only such listings permitted are from 4 approved services with real guarantees. Plus on ebay a raw coin cannot be listed for over $2500. A local coin club has a grading committee and will not permit members to put grades on their coins in the monthly auction unless they pass the objective committee.
This reminds me of your recent “victim” thread. Maybe the dealer will accept a return, but with a raw coin maybe not. Maybe the dealer truly thought it was in the condition represented.
A basic lesson here is that unless one knows how to grade raw coins, one should buy already certified/graded coins. They’ll be more expensive but the limited risk and downside are additional benefits.
Agree. And if the coin came back Ms65, I don't think the buyer would be running back to the dealer with bonus money. You buy a coin face-to-face, there is no implied guarantee, only whatever written guarantee you are given.
@RLSnapper said:
When I see certain Large Cents that are valuable varieties and represented as such not in a TPG I wonder why? I usually figure the dealer has submitted the coin and it came back as cleaned etc. so it was cracked out and is being sold raw. I would bet my last nickel that the dealer of this 55 DDO probably cracked it out of a details holder. It's an easy way to make a quick buck.
You should crack it out and list it on Ebay as" Found in an old collection." You will probably get most of your money back. You are not getting jack back from the dealer.
So, the remedy for the OP's mistake is to INTENTIONALLY misrepresent the item and snooker someone who didn't see the coin in person. Interesting...
$2,800 is an awful lot of money to spend on a raw coin from a dealer you don’t know very well. Personally at that price point, I stick to PCGS/NGC + CAC. I’d rather pay the premium than lose $1,000.
I don’t think you should go back to this dealer with a plan to embarrass him. It’s quite possible he is a bad grader and made a mistake or that the coin is borderline market acceptable.
Personally, I’d probably send the coin to NGC and see if you can at least get it bumped to MS details. Submit it 3-4 times if you have conviction. Grades are opinions, eventually you might get a different one.
@J2035 said:
Personally, I’d probably send the coin to NGC and see if you can at least get it bumped to MS details. Submit it 3-4 times if you have conviction.
I have two coins that NGC graded AU details but after cracking out and submitting to PCGS, are in straight graded MS holders.
@J2035 said:
Grades are opinions, eventually you might get a different one.
I believe the dealer should at least kick me back a few hundred bucks and i keep the coin
I run a business myself for many years. I stand behind everything I do, and do anything to keep everyone satisfied
I think the coin is great. It’s a 55/55. It has value no matter what. I’ll try and regrade in the future, I’m sure it could straighten grade eventually
Again, we’re real close on whether it could be cleaned or not. I’ve learned ungraded copper is tricky. Even to those with many years experience. In 20 years it will be worth much more than I paid cleaned or not
@Chevyrose said:
Again, we’re real close on whether it could be cleaned or not. I’ve learned ungraded copper is tricky. Even to those with many years experience.
But the dealer who sold it to you should have known?
@Chevyrose said:
I believe the dealer should at least kick me back a few hundred bucks and i keep the coin
If you think the coin should have been priced a few hundred bucks less, why didn't you tell the dealer so before you agreed to buy it?
If a used car dealer sold you a car for $3000 and a week later the engine blew
Would you
A chalk it up as a loss
B see if you can work something out with the dealer
The Dealer should have integrity whether he believed the car to be in good shape
Or if he sold it knowing it was a lemon
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
@Chevyrose said:
Again, we’re real close on whether it could be cleaned or not. I’ve learned ungraded copper is tricky. Even to those with many years experience.
But the dealer who sold it to you should have known?
The dealer was in his 70s with over a $100,00 in coins at his table….so maybe
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
@Chevyrose said:
Again, we’re real close on whether it could be cleaned or not. I’ve learned ungraded copper is tricky. Even to those with many years experience.
But the dealer who sold it to you should have known?
The dealer was in his 70s with over a $100,00 in coins at his table….so maybe
You said earlier that you didn't think the coin had been cleaned or dipped. Maybe the seller agreed with you?
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
@Chevyrose said:
Again, we’re real close on whether it could be cleaned or not. I’ve learned ungraded copper is tricky. Even to those with many years experience.
But the dealer who sold it to you should have known?
The dealer was in his 70s with over a $100,00 in coins at his table….so maybe
You said earlier that you didn't think the coin had been cleaned or dipped. Maybe the seller agreed with you?
@Chevyrose said:
I believe the dealer should at least kick me back a few hundred bucks and i keep the coin
If you think the coin should have been priced a few hundred bucks less, why didn't you tell the dealer so before you agreed to buy it?
If a used car dealer sold you a car for $3000 and a week later the engine blew
Would you
A chalk it up as a loss
B see if you can work something out with the dealer
The Dealer should have integrity whether he believed the car to be in good shape
Or if he sold it knowing it was a lemon
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
@Chevyrose said:
Again, we’re real close on whether it could be cleaned or not. I’ve learned ungraded copper is tricky. Even to those with many years experience.
But the dealer who sold it to you should have known?
The dealer was in his 70s with over a $100,00 in coins at his table….so maybe
You said earlier that you didn't think the coin had been cleaned or dipped. Maybe the seller agreed with you?
@Chevyrose said:
I believe the dealer should at least kick me back a few hundred bucks and i keep the coin
If you think the coin should have been priced a few hundred bucks less, why didn't you tell the dealer so before you agreed to buy it?
If a used car dealer sold you a car for $3000 and a week later the engine blew
Would you
A chalk it up as a loss
B see if you can work something out with the dealer
The Dealer should have integrity whether he believed the car to be in good shape
Or if he sold it knowing it was a lemon
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Perhaps reevaluate this analogy
Okay.
A blown engine is a fact. A coin grade is an opinion.
edited to add... Ask anyone who submits coins regularly and you'll find that there are no guarantees regarding the grades you get. If you want a slabbed coin, you should buy one already slabbed. If you want to buy raw and then get the coins graded, you have to accept that you won't always get the grade you think you should. Or you can blame somebody else, I guess- your call.
@Chevyrose said:
Again, we’re real close on whether it could be cleaned or not. I’ve learned ungraded copper is tricky. Even to those with many years experience.
But the dealer who sold it to you should have known?
The dealer was in his 70s with over a $100,00 in coins at his table….so maybe
You said earlier that you didn't think the coin had been cleaned or dipped. Maybe the seller agreed with you?
@Chevyrose said:
I believe the dealer should at least kick me back a few hundred bucks and i keep the coin
If you think the coin should have been priced a few hundred bucks less, why didn't you tell the dealer so before you agreed to buy it?
If a used car dealer sold you a car for $3000 and a week later the engine blew
Would you
A chalk it up as a loss
B see if you can work something out with the dealer
The Dealer should have integrity whether he believed the car to be in good shape
Or if he sold it knowing it was a lemon
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Perhaps reevaluate this analogy
Okay.
A blown engine is a fact. A coin grade is an opinion.
So far the top TPG has given their opinion which as of right now translates to a marketplace fact
@Chevyrose said:
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
Like this?
@Chevyrose said:
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
@Chevyrose said:
So far the top TPG has given their opinion which as of right now translates to a marketplace fact
No. It's still an opinion.
From the submission form terms you agree to when you submit coins for grading:
"Grading involves individual judgments that are subjective and require the exercise of professional opinion,
which can change from time to time. Therefore, PCGS makes no warranty or representation and shall have
no liability whatsoever to Customer for the grade assigned by PCGS to any coin, except pursuant to PCGS’s
Guarantee resubmission as set forth on PCGS’s website at pcgs.com/Guarantee."
@Chevyrose said:
So far the top TPG has given their opinion which as of right now translates to a marketplace fact
No. It's still an opinion.
From the submission form terms you agree to when you submit coins for grading:
"Grading involves individual judgments that are subjective and require the exercise of professional opinion,
which can change from time to time. Therefore, PCGS makes no warranty or representation and shall have
no liability whatsoever to Customer for the grade assigned by PCGS to any coin, except pursuant to PCGS’s
Guarantee resubmission as set forth on PCGS’s website at pcgs.com/Guarantee."
Comments
Not exactly revelatory it was stated before you gave your opinion. You must agree with TPG frequently
My first guess at a glance would have been a straight graded 64RB, bit I do see after a little more study the slightest bit of wear (flatness) on the jaw.
AU58.
Pete
Up for auction on Ebay today. Opening bid $2700. That's an expensive tuition. I won't buy an uncertified coin for over $100. I go to Community College...Not Ivy League.
$2700 seems a bit high for an AU, but I've not been looking for these
Collector, occasional seller
I mean, I do this for a living. I'll refrain from offering my opinion on your future posts though.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
He just meant that he updated the post with the grade received and then you stated the same thing "AU details, cleaned."
Probably just a coincidence
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
It is cleaned, I bet it smells a little like diesel. It looks close to MS so MS/AU details cleaned. IMO
Years ago a jewelry store owner came in to a show wanting to sell a 55 ddo because he needed a lawyer for his arrested son he said. None of the dealers would take a chance on it at $2K or so. I did thought. It was a nice coin with a lot of luster and originality, came back from NGC as an MS62 rb. And I thought I was hopelessly naive with some of my purchases. That's way too much for a probable AU, or Unc details coin.
There is a coin show every month or so near my town. I bought this coin from a dealer who is always there. He advertised it as ms63 rb. I’m gonna bring it back to him next show and explain what happened. I believe he pulled the wool over my eyes. I guess you really can’t trust anyone anymore and it’s a shame. I feel I was ripped off for $1000. That’s not right and not something I would wish on anyone.
If he doesn’t do something to make good for it, I plan on getting the megaphone out of my car and announcing to the whole show how untrustworthy he is and how he ripped me off for $1000.
Oh you’ve never ate humble pie before? Cmon I’m sure you’ve tried it? Perhaps you have too much pride to admit
Grade wise gamble yes
Being sold a cleaned coin when if wasn’t advertised as such? Unacceptable behavior
Grades are opinions. Send a coin in, NGC says "hairlines". Same coin, PCGS straight grades. Which one is right?
You SAW the coin. You didn't think it was cleaned, maybe he didn't either.
chemically cleaned is not always easy to see ... if the grade came back MS64rb would you give the seller another $1000?
That actually never happens or once in a blue moon. 99% of the time when a dealer prices the coin that high and puts a grade on the holder it is actually maxed out at that. And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty, that was what the Accugrade case ended up being about. Systematic overgrading does have consequencees. If it gets sent to PCGS then NGC and the verdicts are about the same then the fault is not with the "arbitrary" grading services.
I don't understand this response. The coin was raw. The OP saw the coin in hand before purchase. Such purchases, other than counterfeits, don't have any implied guarantee of TPG grade. Accugrade was a grading service not a dealer.
Forget the cleaning part. You seem to be implying that if a dealer seeks a coin as a 64 and it comes back 63 that he is liable for the difference in value.
I understand why you are upset but you also should take responsibility for taking such a big risk on a raw coin without the knowledge necessary to evaluate such risk.
Edited to add: I disagree with your threatened megaphone tantrum.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
We have all had humble pie here at one time or another. I bought many cleaned coins before I could detect them. It's a horrible feeling, but it has helped me learn every time.
You got some more "experience." Either spend more time to accurately grade, or only buy certified. This was a hard coin to detect, but you were paying top dollar for a raw coin. From the pics, the cleaning seemed tough to pick up, but I could see wear. And with that mark on the obverse, there was no way this coin was going to be a steal for you.
And handle the dealer maturely. Talk to him, see his response. Was it an honest mistake? How many dealers at this show are going to want to have any interaction with you if you stand outside with a friggin bullhorn?
I have always eaten the humble pie. I always suck it up, as the error was mine.
Using this argument ("And by putting his grade on the holder he is giving a warranty..."), everyone who sent an NGC graded coin to PCGS and got a lower grade is owed a refund by NGC. Seems silly.
My first reaction seeing this thread was AU58 and a suspicious 'look'.
It's always a shame when one pays real money for a coin, then is disappointed.
But I agree with those who said that the doctrine of "caveat emptor" applies to a purchase/sale of a raw coin in an in-person transaction. There is no implied warranty from the seller, and an explicit warranty only if you get in it writing, signed by the seller.
Which is why I won't spend real money (however I define that) on a raw coin.
I will use this opportunity to reiterate my pet peeve about labeling coins that have been subtly cleaned as DOA. I agree that one that has truly been destroyed should be labeled (and treated) as such, but one about which reasonable, knowledgeable people can disagree about whether it really is destroyed should not be killed by a TPG, IMO. I would much rather that the marketplace decided what to do with those coins, rather that a TPG consigning it to coin purgatory.
It's hubristic for a dealer to put "MS63 rb" or MS64 rb" on the coin which are big money grades for a coin like this and then to be absolved of all responsibility for the $2800 transaction. Most dealers have a return policy if a coin is returned in original condition. In this case the dealer likely paid $1000 less than what he sold if for, I doubt he was snookered into paying no problem Unc. money for it.
We have previous discussions on fringe grading services such as PCI in the late re-incarnation that was held liable for bogus grades: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/944394/federal-court-calls-for-damages-of-nearly-1-9-million-for-misrepresented-pci-coins There was a discussion years before that on Accugrade being held liable for bogus grades. How long should people tolerate misrepresentation? They can't get away with it on ebay stating grades of their own, the only such listings permitted are from 4 approved services with real guarantees. Plus on ebay a raw coin cannot be listed for over $2500. A local coin club has a grading committee and will not permit members to put grades on their coins in the monthly auction unless they pass the objective committee.
I wonder if you have read and attempted to use these real guarantees. You might be surprised by the results.
This reminds me of your recent “victim” thread. Maybe the dealer will accept a return, but with a raw coin maybe not. Maybe the dealer truly thought it was in the condition represented.
A basic lesson here is that unless one knows how to grade raw coins, one should buy already certified/graded coins. They’ll be more expensive but the limited risk and downside are additional benefits.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Why would someone buy a major and valuable variety in supposedly MS condition raw? 🤔
More to the point, why would a dealer sell such a coin raw? (Possibly to conceal issues?
)
Personally, I'd be a little apprehensive, to say the least.
Just my opinion...
They do, for sight-unseen purchases. In person purchases at a show are typically final when you walk away from the table unless specific arrangements have been agreed to.
What the dealer paid has nothing to do with this particular deal.
When I see certain Large Cents that are valuable varieties and represented as such not in a TPG I wonder why? I usually figure the dealer has submitted the coin and it came back as cleaned etc. so it was cracked out and is being sold raw. I would bet my last nickel that the dealer of this 55 DDO probably cracked it out of a details holder. It's an easy way to make a quick buck.
You should crack it out and list it on Ebay as" Found in an old collection." You will probably get most of your money back. You are not getting jack back from the dealer.
Many large cent collectors prefer their coins raw and so one shouldn’t assume the dealer who sells such material (particularly specialists) are trying to screw the collector.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Agree. And if the coin came back Ms65, I don't think the buyer would be running back to the dealer with bonus money. You buy a coin face-to-face, there is no implied guarantee, only whatever written guarantee you are given.
So, the remedy for the OP's mistake is to INTENTIONALLY misrepresent the item and snooker someone who didn't see the coin in person. Interesting...
$2,800 is an awful lot of money to spend on a raw coin from a dealer you don’t know very well. Personally at that price point, I stick to PCGS/NGC + CAC. I’d rather pay the premium than lose $1,000.
I don’t think you should go back to this dealer with a plan to embarrass him. It’s quite possible he is a bad grader and made a mistake or that the coin is borderline market acceptable.
Personally, I’d probably send the coin to NGC and see if you can at least get it bumped to MS details. Submit it 3-4 times if you have conviction. Grades are opinions, eventually you might get a different one.
I have two coins that NGC graded AU details but after cracking out and submitting to PCGS, are in straight graded MS holders.
Some people seem to not recognize this fact.
I believe the dealer should at least kick me back a few hundred bucks and i keep the coin
I run a business myself for many years. I stand behind everything I do, and do anything to keep everyone satisfied
I think the coin is great. It’s a 55/55. It has value no matter what. I’ll try and regrade in the future, I’m sure it could straighten grade eventually
If you think the coin should have been priced a few hundred bucks less, why didn't you tell the dealer so before you agreed to buy it?
Again, we’re real close on whether it could be cleaned or not. I’ve learned ungraded copper is tricky. Even to those with many years experience. In 20 years it will be worth much more than I paid cleaned or not
But the dealer who sold it to you should have known?
If a used car dealer sold you a car for $3000 and a week later the engine blew
Would you
A chalk it up as a loss
B see if you can work something out with the dealer
The Dealer should have integrity whether he believed the car to be in good shape
Or if he sold it knowing it was a lemon
Kindness and fairness to others should happen more in this world
The dealer was in his 70s with over a $100,00 in coins at his table….so maybe
Like this?
You said earlier that you didn't think the coin had been cleaned or dipped. Maybe the seller agreed with you?
That still might happen. Depends on how he handles the issue
Of course I’ll approach him respectfully and have an honest conversation
But yeah if he decides to do nothing then he’ll probably lose some sales that day
You don’t have to agree
Perhaps reevaluate this analogy
So you believe in kindness and fairness as long as you get what you want? Okay.
Okay.
A blown engine is a fact. A coin grade is an opinion.
edited to add... Ask anyone who submits coins regularly and you'll find that there are no guarantees regarding the grades you get. If you want a slabbed coin, you should buy one already slabbed. If you want to buy raw and then get the coins graded, you have to accept that you won't always get the grade you think you should. Or you can blame somebody else, I guess- your call.
So far the top TPG has given their opinion which as of right now translates to a marketplace fact
Wait so quick question
You label an ungraded coin ms63 rb
Someone buys it
It comes back cleaned from a TPG and the buyer informs you
What would you do?
No. It's still an opinion.
From the submission form terms you agree to when you submit coins for grading:
"Grading involves individual judgments that are subjective and require the exercise of professional opinion,
which can change from time to time. Therefore, PCGS makes no warranty or representation and shall have
no liability whatsoever to Customer for the grade assigned by PCGS to any coin, except pursuant to PCGS’s
Guarantee resubmission as set forth on PCGS’s website at pcgs.com/Guarantee."
Facts don't change from time to time.
Please tell me grading is an art next
If he is an unscrupulous dealer in his seventies his bouncer will take you out.