@fergie23 said:
This is all very questionable. I am interested in knowing how many of the packs had the incorrect sequencing (ie the packs that were in sequential order). Lots of crazy things can happen for sure at the factory but 2 of those packs had to have the proper sequencing, there is a 0% chance that Steve replaced two packs from the submitted box with 2 that did not follow the standard 86 Fleer sequencing. IMO there is also no chance that a frankenstein box would have all packs with incorrect sequencing or in this case the other 34.
I have not watched the original video of the entire break, so I don't know how many packs had the oddball sequencing. I think that will be one of the telltale signs to help determine if the box was legit or not. I like Steve personally and have done a lot of business with him (though not as much now that vintage wax costs so much), so he gets the benefit of the doubt for now from me. I know he has made mistakes in the past (I have definitely bought some material that was resealed, the whole star on top cello fiasco, Pokemon case, etc.) but I have never personally had any issues with 86 Fleer bsk from him or heard from anyone that ripped packs/boxes that he vouched for that has either.
As for resealers, some are good enough to know that they have to seed star cards in their resealed product to allay suspicion. Not saying that is what happened here but pulling the right number of Jordan RCs from a frankenstein box doesn't mean as much as some people would assume.
In the end, Steve makes mistakes just like everyone else. There are an astronomical number of trimmed/altered cards in PSA, BGS, & SGC holders, so slab holders shouldn't be casting stones at those that collect unopened. Same can be said for authenticated autos, game used gear, etc. I don't think there is any aspect of the hobby that hasn't dealt with this sort of issue.
Robb
Well said Robb. Your 86F pack rips were legendary.
It is my understanding that the box was not a Frankenstein box until these 2 packs were replaced, and that 34 of the 36 packs were original to the box. If we had video of the entire break, then I’m assuming the 2 replaced packs would have had correct collation.
The 2 packs that Stave added didn't make it a "Frankenstein" box. It was before Steve added the packs. The sticker count was off before the packs were replaced.
@jfkheat said:
No one is talking about the stickers. An authentic box should have had 3 or 4 Jordan stickers. I believe this box only had 1. I would like to know how many of each sticker there were.
Here's the original owner's BBCE letter from the authentication, I don't know if this is exactly how the stickers played out but I do know there was only one Jordan sticker pulled.
so if the box was built w packs from multiple boxes to get to 36 how could the entire box have all the alphabetical order packs?
This sticker sequencing is interesting it now means that at least 4 of the packs not just 2 were not original to the box. If the full box opening were available to watch I’d expect at least 4 packs to have a normal sequencing and then 32 with the straight alphabetical sequence for it to not be searched.
The situation gets a little muddier but one thing is clear this wasn’t the most pristine box from the beginning, but Steve did make that very clear with his authentication letter. 😀
This is the worse, most expensive group break I've ever seen. It amazes me that there isn't one full video of everything happening. I would have expected a show, basically an infomercial, with the companies involved and the goal of the event. Instead we got a disorganized disaster with cameras pointed at the crowd, a host that acts like a damn pit boss, two guys that look like auditors doing who knows what, random "influencers" screaming like crazy and how this entire debacle about the box itself. What a trainwreck. Also, glad to be here.
I'm not into this box breaking hysteria, but what little I know is that 100% full transparency seems to be the accepted rule of thumb when breaking boxes or packs on video? As such, without the complete video of the box being opened from wrap to pack the pressure should be on the box breaker to prove that they didn't tamper with the box prior to opening it. Seems BBCE is taking the brunt of the heat for this right now, fairly or unfairly.
Has there been any strong pressure for concrete video evidence providing box was untampered with before they started the break from the box breaker?
Seems fishy nothing has been reported that they had any disappointment with the box contents, or they even questioned collation pattern.
My concern is that any box that isn’t marked FASC could be a “Frankenstein” box. It really should be noted on high $ boxes if they were piece meal boxes.
Low $ boxes not so much
I feel like more blame got piled on Steve after BBCE's response this weekend that defended the strange coalition. There are hundreds of video online showing 86F packs and boxes being opened and none depicted this sequencing. I like the guy and have spent thousands of dollars with BBCE, but sometimes humility and taking responsibility go a long way in business.
@BJY83 said:
I feel like more blame got piled on Steve after BBCE's response this weekend that defended the strange coalition. There are hundreds of video online showing 86F packs and boxes being opened and none depicted this sequencing. I like the guy and have spent thousands of dollars with BBCE, but sometimes humility and taking responsibility go a long way in business.
He really has no choice at this point. Anything less and it makes him look like he was the one who made a mistake. That would immediately undermine his expertise and ruin his business.
The odd thing is that if there’s proof someone switched boxes, etc that now he’s put himself in the position of defending a bad box. That also undermines his expertise. I can’t believe he made any statement.
@TsavoriteSam said:
My concern is that any box that isn’t marked FASC could be a “Frankenstein” box. It really should be noted on high $ boxes if they were piece meal boxes.
Low $ boxes not so much
Steve provides letters for the 1986-87 Fleer boxes he authenticates. Golden choose not to show letter for this box in his auction. Easy for unexperienced collectors/breakers to miss. Shame on them for not researching better, shame on Golden for not showing letter for complete transparency.
I believe the intent for WhatNot was to get their name out there. It succeeded with me, as I had never heard of them. An alternative to eBay with live card breaks.
Did they get $100K or $168K or $50K worth of awareness out of the situation - probably.
@estang said:
I believe the intent for WhatNot was to get their name out there. It succeeded with me, as I had never heard of them. An alternative to eBay with live card breaks.
Did they get $100K or $168K or $50K worth of awareness out of the situation - probably.
You may want to do a bit more research on Whatnot before spending your money with them.
———————
For the past 30+ years, we have bought, sold, and authenticated countless packs/boxes of 1986/87 Fleer Basketball.
Over the last few days there has been a lot of talk in the industry about a 1986/87 Fleer Basketball BBCE box broken on the main stage at the 2022 National by WhatNot.
The box being discussed had some atypical collation which our team at BBCE has done in-depth investigation into. The link below is our full detailed report explaining why we are standing behind our authentication of this box as a 100% good 1986/87 Fleer Basketball 36 Pack Box.
———————
For the past 30+ years, we have bought, sold, and authenticated countless packs/boxes of 1986/87 Fleer Basketball.
Over the last few days there has been a lot of talk in the industry about a 1986/87 Fleer Basketball BBCE box broken on the main stage at the 2022 National by WhatNot.
The box being discussed had some atypical collation which our team at BBCE has done in-depth investigation into. The link below is our full detailed report explaining why we are standing behind our authentication of this box as a 100% good 1986/87 Fleer Basketball 36 Pack Box.
Well, just because you do a very long response it doesn't mean folks will believe. They're kind of in a no-win situation.
They had to do a response like this, but it seems a bit like protesting too much. Most folks who open those know how the sequencing work, and also know when they see something that seems unique. Good luck.
Good response that reads as logical. Find it strange how low the grades were, and that one pack was tampered. If this was a frankenbox why was the out of sequence so consistent?
All that said, Occams applies here and seems reasonable that this was a legit but that had issues from the factory.
@80sOPC said:
Good response that reads as logical. Find it strange how low the grades were, and that one pack was tampered. If this was a frankenbox why was the out of sequence so consistent?
All that said, Occams applies here and seems reasonable that this was a legit but that had issues from the factory.
was it a frankenstein box? to some degree but not by all the people with pitchforks definition, I don't read anywhere that these are packs from many multiple of boxes. 2 packs were replaced , those 2 packs had normal sequencing. anyone think the reason there was a suspect pack was because someone pulled the jordan pack and replaced it or pulled the jordan and resealed it..... and it was caught???????
but whoever said it is correct, it doesn't matter. anyone who has ever opened a pack/box got crap which is the most probably result is now on the side of the fence that bbce has no idea what they are doing and their pack/box must have been resealed. it's very unfortunate
I do agree with Steve's general point about the QC in the 1980's. At of us ripped packs back then and we all have seen anomalies in card sequencing. Also, are the low grade Jordans really an indicator of a reseal? I've seen a lot of raw 1986 F BKB singles when I was putting together my master set and the quality control was horrendous. Those low grade Jordans don't surprise me. I didn't watch the rip, but was the card quality consistent within each pack?
However like other people mentioned, what are the odds this would pop up on camera now? A unicorn sequence? With a frankenbox.
I guess it's done. The cards were free so everyone got what they wanted whether it was a unique allocation or resealed. I could watch the WhatNot video if they release it but I'm guessing its a 5 hour video. I dont got time for that. GL to someone that does. People will have their opinions sway one way or another no matter who you are. Ultimately, the greatest thing available to us is the knowledge to figure it out ourselves. Good luck to all and happy collecting!
As with all grading an authentication, paying for an opinion is an inexact science. I read BBCE's whole breakdown and while I do find a lot of compelling arguments in it, it comes off as more sure than I feel like anyone could possibly be given the lack of comparable evidence. I'm sure they had strange days packing boxes every now and again but you'd be relying on that pretty hard and in a pretty high profile way to come off that sure. That said, I don't think anyone does this sort of thing better than Steve so I can wish him luck, think his reputation should remain in mostly good standing, that the vintage unopened market shouldn't collapse over this...and still question the whole thing.
@VitoCo1972 said:
As with all grading an authentication, paying for an opinion is an inexact science. I read BBCE's whole breakdown and while I do find a lot of compelling arguments in it, it comes off as more sure than I feel like anyone could possibly be given the lack of comparable evidence. I'm sure they had strange days packing boxes every now and again but you'd be relying on that pretty hard and in a pretty high profile way to come off that sure. That said, I don't think anyone does this sort of thing better than Steve so I can wish him luck, think his reputation should remain in mostly good standing, that the vintage unopened market shouldn't collapse over this...and still question the whole thing.
If the hammer prices at REA last night are any indication, the vintage unopened market is not only well but thriving and I'd venture to say will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think this explanation leads to questions about verification of racks & cellos based on collation.
I can't tell you how many people reject out of hand star on top cellos because the collation is "not possible". Yet, as this case shows collation is not guaranteed. The idea that Fleer would make collation errors on 5000+ cases of basketball but Topps wouldn't on an even higher volume of material doesn't make sense.
@fergie23 said:
I think this explanation leads to questions about verification of racks & cellos based on collation.
I can't tell you how many people reject out of hand star on top cellos because the collation is "not possible". Yet, as this case shows collation is not guaranteed. The idea that Fleer would make collation errors on 5000+ cases of basketball but Topps wouldn't on an even higher volume of material doesn't make sense.
Robb
Collation anomalies are not uncommon for many years/issues but even with anomalies there is a very specific and identifiable logic and pattern behind it. Collation is just one aspect of the authentication process but it's important not to have tunnel vision with regard to that aspect, as well. What appears to be a total aberration is actually completely and wholly explainable as in the case of this Fleer box. It's a far cry from "anything is possible" with no rhyme or reason.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
All this brings us back to the main issue, how does this debacle affect the hobby's opinion about BBCE services and product?
The reality is that even with these two high profile, I'll call them "issues", there isn't another service that compares especially in the vintage space. I think Steve will have to revise his process for these high dollar boxes since that seems to be where all of the skilled scammers hang out. I haven't been in the market for vintage unopened since the boom, so I can't say if it will affect my buying. I will probably stick to FASC boxes if I am buying a higher dollar box. I think those premiums especially for vintage will increase significantly.
The 2012 Panini BKB scam at the National I think will open up the modern authentication business. I'm just wondering if the hobby will accept a modern box with the factory sealed removed, contents verified, and resealed.
@ndleo said:
All this brings us back to the main issue, how does this debacle affect the hobby's opinion about BBCE services and product?
The reality is that even with these two high profile, I'll call them "issues", there isn't another service that compares especially in the vintage space. I think Steve will have to revise his process for these high dollar boxes since that seems to be where all of the skilled scammers hang out. I haven't been in the market for vintage unopened since the boom, so I can't say if it will affect my buying. I will probably stick to FASC boxes if I am buying a higher dollar box. I think those premiums especially for vintage will increase significantly.
The 2012 Panini BKB scam at the National I think will open up the modern authentication business. I'm just wondering if the hobby will accept a modern box with the factory sealed removed, contents verified, and resealed.
I don’t think this one affects them all that much long term. I think the Pokémon one did far more damage, and if not for that, the explanation on the 86 box wouldn’t be drawing anywhere near the scrutiny it is.
I think that a little lost in all of this is the flimsy way these boxes are "slabbed"
lets say that this box is in fact a unicorn that has collation no one has ever seen, that just happened to be opened on live stream. imagine how easily it seems to counterfeit steves wrap and the label on bottom. especially the older boxes with the business card. I would be shocked if the fakers haven't already started to replicate the wrap and label. it seems like a nearly foolproof crime. 99% of these boxes never get opened.
My thoughts on this (and I am a ripper more than an unopened collector):
BBCE not infallible - but still the best odds of being correct (like card graders).
Explanations struck me as more plausible than not - would be a hell of a reseal job to follow strange patterns and use correct flip cards. Would be a miraculous reseal job to get inner folds perfect too.
Off grades do appear to be more about centering on the Jordans
Box labeled as 36 packs, so sticker frequency distribution is a red herring, as is any card frequency, as with any Frankenbox
For anything of value, cellophane and a little sticker does not cut it to be "sealed" - maybe on boxes over $x,000, lucite should be used - though this group of 36 packs sure appears to be the same 36 that Steve saw.
I was reading further on this topic across the hall and came upon an interesting post. It really made me think. here is what the poster said:
"And I'm not even sure how BBCE got their market share. Is it because they were first to do this sort of thing? So many people call Steve an "expert" but what makes him an expert? Just his experience since he was first to create this niche? Was he employed by Fleer back in 1986 and part of the basketball card team so he was able to have this wealth of inside knowledge about how the cards were packaged in packs/boxes/cases? Did he just know enough ppl to start this and drum up enough grassroots business to become "the" guy? He's clearly shown he is not really an expert."
I have been around this hobby for a long time. near on 40 years. I remember when alan rosen sold vintage packs. then Mark Murphy. then Steve. as far as I know, there are no classes to learn pack authentication. is it simply that he has been "doing it for a long time?" if that is the case, there needs to be more transparency in the process.
It is very scary when a whole facet of the hobby is propped up by one man.
I agree with Craig. Experience matters, but obviously for unopened packs, it's kind of a crap shoot. I have about 12 unopened boxes of 1987 opc, 12 1985 Leaf and 12 1987 leaf. The best way I would describe there authenticity would be that I purchased them over 7 years ago and I paid around $20 a box, approximately the value at the time.
I couldn't guarantee anything, bu the fact that these boxes had very few high dollar cards and weren't in demand at the time makes me feel a little better about them being legit. I actually pulled a PSA 10 1987 OPC Bonds form one of them.
@craig44 said:
I was reading further on this topic across the hall and came upon an interesting post. It really made me think. here is what the poster said:
"And I'm not even sure how BBCE got their market share. Is it because they were first to do this sort of thing? So many people call Steve an "expert" but what makes him an expert? Just his experience since he was first to create this niche? Was he employed by Fleer back in 1986 and part of the basketball card team so he was able to have this wealth of inside knowledge about how the cards were packaged in packs/boxes/cases? Did he just know enough ppl to start this and drum up enough grassroots business to become "the" guy? He's clearly shown he is not really an expert."
I have been around this hobby for a long time. near on 40 years. I remember when alan rosen sold vintage packs. then Mark Murphy. then Steve. as far as I know, there are no classes to learn pack authentication. is it simply that he has been "doing it for a long time?" if that is the case, there needs to be more transparency in the process.
It is very scary when a whole facet of the hobby is propped up by one man.
Just like any areas of authentication, especially with sports collectibles, there are no "classes" to take. Steve has been involved with unopened product for over 30+ years and this is what he does for a living. Just like the rest of us that practice law, accounting, or whatever, that's what we do for a living and have our levels of expertise. While there are more accountants and lawyers out there than unopened pack authenticators, I think you'll find the opinions of the people that are educated on the topic of unopened product hold Steve in high regard. The opinions of the uninformed need to be thrown out because, well, they are uninformed, and are not based on any sort of fact pattern. I take major issue with the "He's clearly shown he is not really an expert" that is mentioned by that poster. What evidence is there to make that claim?
Like has been mentioned before, Steve is not infallible and has made mistakes in the past. The Pokemon debacle was a huge error on his part and his exercise of judgment on that particular case deserves the criticisms that he received.
However, if we take a deeper dive and look at his broad history of certifying unopened product, while he has definitely not batted 1,000, he has come pretty close in my opinion. It is not an exact science and things have slipped through the cracks (mostly with the stars on top vintage packs perpetrated by Jose) However, I think over the years,
and as he has even commented himself about this, he is extremely conservative when grading, and any time there is even a sliver of doubt in his mind, the pack/box/rack gets rejected. I think that is how we would all want it to be.
As far as my personal dealings with Steve over the years, they have been exceptional. I'm definitely not a big fish, but I was so impressed when I introduced myself to him at the National a number of years ago, he said, Oh, you are from X town in Iowa, right? (He must pay attention to the orders that go out...OR maybe that was a sign that I had placed too many orders). He has always answered all my emails over the years personally with whatever questions I had and to provide education to me on unopened product. He also was able to prevent me from being scammed by some "fake bbce wrapped product" (this was before they moved to their logo wrap), and I will be forever grateful to him for that.
While in an ideal world, it would be nice to have multiple Steve Hart's, but instead of being scared that the unopened market is propped up by one man, I would argue that we are lucky that the one man is Steve Hart.
I opened hundreds of packs of these back in the day when anything except baseball cards were considered un-collectible.
For my money, if there is no video if the BBCE cello wrap being opened there at The National, my primary suspicion would be that the packs could have been switched out after that seal was cracked.
Can anyone verify whether all 34 of the non-replaced packs displayed this unusual sequence? Since it is undeniably a Frankenstein box, that would be informative as to the possibilities.
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Two big disasters for Steve Hart and he really needs to reevaluate what BBCE can/should authenticate. We can say don't touch Pokemon and enough has been said already. Boy, no more favors for your friends as the 1986 Fleer Basketball Box in question should of never been authenticated when two packs were replaced by Steve. We all make mistakes and the key is to learn from them. Entities like BBCE has a place in the hobby.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned above but Ken Goldin & Whatnot agreed to open a second box of 1986 Fleer that will be given away to the same people involved in the first break.
@erikthredd said:
Not sure if this has already been mentioned above but Ken Goldin & Whatnot agreed to open a second box of 1986 Fleer that will be given away to the same people involved in the first break.
One thing I am curious about and did not see an answer in this thread.
There was 2 separate PSA packs added to the box. The odds each pack shared the same sequencing as the other 34 packs would be near impossible. Was the sequencing on the 2 packs added correct while the other packs were not?
@ArtVandelay said:
One thing I am curious about and did not see an answer in this thread.
There was 2 separate PSA packs added to the box. The odds each pack shared the same sequencing as the other 34 packs would be near impossible. Was the sequencing on the 2 packs added correct while the other packs were not?
I believe so. It was the rest of the box that was missing the other sheet.
People get so worked up about those two packs being replaced. Claiming that replacing those two packs made the entire box tampered with. Nobody wants to or can comprehend that a sealed box could have vastly different results from a box that came straight out of a sealed case.
3 Typical Sequence Packs with a right edge sheet "flip" card (#15, #26, #36)
1 Typical Sequence Pack with a "flip card" that is not a right edge sheet flip card (#3)
3 Typical Sequence Pack with no flip card (#5, #6, #9)
28 Atypical Sequence with a right edge sheet flip card
1 Atypical Sequence Pack with a "flip card" that is not a right edge sheet flip card #12
36 Total Packs
The two PSA 8 packs added to the box (#5, #9)
My take:
28 of the atypical reverse alphabetical sequencing
1 atypical sequencing (other anomaly)
2 replaced packs - both with typical sequencing
5 typical sequencing
Either the 28 packs were all from the same box or case originally that had a strange sequencing never really scene before - or they were resealed with an incorrect sequence. We will never know for sure.
I hope this box has typical sequencing and strong Jordans and everyone moves on. I will say that it gives the appearance Goldin and WhatNot must believe something was not right or they would not be doing this.
The only way for unopened packs/boxes to actually be labeled as authentic is if the manufacturers were to distribute them labeled that way. For instance, Topp> @brad31 said:
From BBCE’s statement:
3 Typical Sequence Packs with a right edge sheet "flip" card (#15, #26, #36)
1 Typical Sequence Pack with a "flip card" that is not a right edge sheet flip card (#3)
3 Typical Sequence Pack with no flip card (#5, #6, #9)
28 Atypical Sequence with a right edge sheet flip card
1 Atypical Sequence Pack with a "flip card" that is not a right edge sheet flip card #12
36 Total Packs
The two PSA 8 packs added to the box (#5, #9)
My take:
28 of the atypical reverse alphabetical sequencing
1 atypical sequencing (other anomaly)
2 replaced packs - both with typical sequencing
5 typical sequencing
Either the 28 packs were all from the same box or case originally that had a strange sequencing never really scene before - or they were resealed with an incorrect sequence. We will never know for sure.
I hope this box has typical sequencing and strong Jordans and everyone moves on. I will say that it gives the appearance Goldin and WhatNot must believe something was not right or they would not be doing this.
I disagree that it gives the appearance that Goldin and Whatnot must believe something was not right with the first box. I think it gives the appearance that they recognize that OTHERS believe something was amiss and that they care enough about their reputation in the hobby to go extra lenghts to make sure everyone is happy. Spending an extra $150k or $170k on another box to be broken is a big gesture.
It definitely makes it seem like they're making an effort to build confidence in their companies and restore trust. They're paying a lot to build back trust, and it's probably a sound business decision for both.
Weirdly, by doing this as a do-over to the same folks that bought parts in the first break it makes BBCE look like THEY'RE the ones that made the error and that the box wasn't legit.
A lot of so-called "investment groups" these days plunking down big bucks these days with little or no knowledge about the product for which they are spending. That goes for all the bombastic blowhards on social media channels screeching for clicks, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@grote15 said:
A lot of so-called "investment groups" these days plunking down big bucks these days with little or no knowledge about the product for which they are spending. That goes for all the bombastic blowhards on social media channels screeching for clicks, too.
Comments
Here's the MJ sticker getting pulled. That leftside wrapper flap looks a little suspect imo.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Well said Robb. Your 86F pack rips were legendary.
Brian
The 2 packs that Stave added didn't make it a "Frankenstein" box. It was before Steve added the packs. The sticker count was off before the packs were replaced.
This sticker sequencing is interesting it now means that at least 4 of the packs not just 2 were not original to the box. If the full box opening were available to watch I’d expect at least 4 packs to have a normal sequencing and then 32 with the straight alphabetical sequence for it to not be searched.
The situation gets a little muddier but one thing is clear this wasn’t the most pristine box from the beginning, but Steve did make that very clear with his authentication letter. 😀
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
This is the worse, most expensive group break I've ever seen. It amazes me that there isn't one full video of everything happening. I would have expected a show, basically an infomercial, with the companies involved and the goal of the event. Instead we got a disorganized disaster with cameras pointed at the crowd, a host that acts like a damn pit boss, two guys that look like auditors doing who knows what, random "influencers" screaming like crazy and how this entire debacle about the box itself. What a trainwreck. Also, glad to be here.
I'm not into this box breaking hysteria, but what little I know is that 100% full transparency seems to be the accepted rule of thumb when breaking boxes or packs on video? As such, without the complete video of the box being opened from wrap to pack the pressure should be on the box breaker to prove that they didn't tamper with the box prior to opening it. Seems BBCE is taking the brunt of the heat for this right now, fairly or unfairly.
Has there been any strong pressure for concrete video evidence providing box was untampered with before they started the break from the box breaker?
Seems fishy nothing has been reported that they had any disappointment with the box contents, or they even questioned collation pattern.
My concern is that any box that isn’t marked FASC could be a “Frankenstein” box. It really should be noted on high $ boxes if they were piece meal boxes.
Low $ boxes not so much
I feel like more blame got piled on Steve after BBCE's response this weekend that defended the strange coalition. There are hundreds of video online showing 86F packs and boxes being opened and none depicted this sequencing. I like the guy and have spent thousands of dollars with BBCE, but sometimes humility and taking responsibility go a long way in business.
Brian
He really has no choice at this point. Anything less and it makes him look like he was the one who made a mistake. That would immediately undermine his expertise and ruin his business.
The odd thing is that if there’s proof someone switched boxes, etc that now he’s put himself in the position of defending a bad box. That also undermines his expertise. I can’t believe he made any statement.
Steve provides letters for the 1986-87 Fleer boxes he authenticates. Golden choose not to show letter for this box in his auction. Easy for unexperienced collectors/breakers to miss. Shame on them for not researching better, shame on Golden for not showing letter for complete transparency.
I believe the intent for WhatNot was to get their name out there. It succeeded with me, as I had never heard of them. An alternative to eBay with live card breaks.
Did they get $100K or $168K or $50K worth of awareness out of the situation - probably.
Erik
You may want to do a bit more research on Whatnot before spending your money with them.
Result of BBCE Investigation….
———————
For the past 30+ years, we have bought, sold, and authenticated countless packs/boxes of 1986/87 Fleer Basketball.
Over the last few days there has been a lot of talk in the industry about a 1986/87 Fleer Basketball BBCE box broken on the main stage at the 2022 National by WhatNot.
The box being discussed had some atypical collation which our team at BBCE has done in-depth investigation into. The link below is our full detailed report explaining why we are standing behind our authentication of this box as a 100% good 1986/87 Fleer Basketball 36 Pack Box.
http://www.bbcexchange.com/198687-fleer-basketball-x0851
Well, just because you do a very long response it doesn't mean folks will believe. They're kind of in a no-win situation.
They had to do a response like this, but it seems a bit like protesting too much. Most folks who open those know how the sequencing work, and also know when they see something that seems unique. Good luck.
BBCE wants people to believe that they pulled on live stream at the national a once in a lifetime unicorn sequenced box... yea ok.
Good response that reads as logical. Find it strange how low the grades were, and that one pack was tampered. If this was a frankenbox why was the out of sequence so consistent?
All that said, Occams applies here and seems reasonable that this was a legit but that had issues from the factory.
was it a frankenstein box? to some degree but not by all the people with pitchforks definition, I don't read anywhere that these are packs from many multiple of boxes. 2 packs were replaced , those 2 packs had normal sequencing. anyone think the reason there was a suspect pack was because someone pulled the jordan pack and replaced it or pulled the jordan and resealed it..... and it was caught???????
but whoever said it is correct, it doesn't matter. anyone who has ever opened a pack/box got crap which is the most probably result is now on the side of the fence that bbce has no idea what they are doing and their pack/box must have been resealed. it's very unfortunate
I do agree with Steve's general point about the QC in the 1980's. At of us ripped packs back then and we all have seen anomalies in card sequencing. Also, are the low grade Jordans really an indicator of a reseal? I've seen a lot of raw 1986 F BKB singles when I was putting together my master set and the quality control was horrendous. Those low grade Jordans don't surprise me. I didn't watch the rip, but was the card quality consistent within each pack?
However like other people mentioned, what are the odds this would pop up on camera now? A unicorn sequence? With a frankenbox.
I guess it's done. The cards were free so everyone got what they wanted whether it was a unique allocation or resealed. I could watch the WhatNot video if they release it but I'm guessing its a 5 hour video. I dont got time for that. GL to someone that does. People will have their opinions sway one way or another no matter who you are. Ultimately, the greatest thing available to us is the knowledge to figure it out ourselves. Good luck to all and happy collecting!
As with all grading an authentication, paying for an opinion is an inexact science. I read BBCE's whole breakdown and while I do find a lot of compelling arguments in it, it comes off as more sure than I feel like anyone could possibly be given the lack of comparable evidence. I'm sure they had strange days packing boxes every now and again but you'd be relying on that pretty hard and in a pretty high profile way to come off that sure. That said, I don't think anyone does this sort of thing better than Steve so I can wish him luck, think his reputation should remain in mostly good standing, that the vintage unopened market shouldn't collapse over this...and still question the whole thing.
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If the hammer prices at REA last night are any indication, the vintage unopened market is not only well but thriving and I'd venture to say will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think this explanation leads to questions about verification of racks & cellos based on collation.
I can't tell you how many people reject out of hand star on top cellos because the collation is "not possible". Yet, as this case shows collation is not guaranteed. The idea that Fleer would make collation errors on 5000+ cases of basketball but Topps wouldn't on an even higher volume of material doesn't make sense.
Robb
Collation anomalies are not uncommon for many years/issues but even with anomalies there is a very specific and identifiable logic and pattern behind it. Collation is just one aspect of the authentication process but it's important not to have tunnel vision with regard to that aspect, as well. What appears to be a total aberration is actually completely and wholly explainable as in the case of this Fleer box. It's a far cry from "anything is possible" with no rhyme or reason.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
All this brings us back to the main issue, how does this debacle affect the hobby's opinion about BBCE services and product?
The reality is that even with these two high profile, I'll call them "issues", there isn't another service that compares especially in the vintage space. I think Steve will have to revise his process for these high dollar boxes since that seems to be where all of the skilled scammers hang out. I haven't been in the market for vintage unopened since the boom, so I can't say if it will affect my buying. I will probably stick to FASC boxes if I am buying a higher dollar box. I think those premiums especially for vintage will increase significantly.
The 2012 Panini BKB scam at the National I think will open up the modern authentication business. I'm just wondering if the hobby will accept a modern box with the factory sealed removed, contents verified, and resealed.
I don’t think this one affects them all that much long term. I think the Pokémon one did far more damage, and if not for that, the explanation on the 86 box wouldn’t be drawing anywhere near the scrutiny it is.
I thought that was odd too.. Two packs were bad, but box is good.
Gretzky,Ripken, and Sandberg collection. Still trying to complete 1975 Topps baseball set from when I was a kid.
I would have probably been skeptical of only one MJ sticker in the box.
Gretzky,Ripken, and Sandberg collection. Still trying to complete 1975 Topps baseball set from when I was a kid.
And was the One Jordan sticker from one of the two "replacement packs"?
Gretzky,Ripken, and Sandberg collection. Still trying to complete 1975 Topps baseball set from when I was a kid.
I think that a little lost in all of this is the flimsy way these boxes are "slabbed"
lets say that this box is in fact a unicorn that has collation no one has ever seen, that just happened to be opened on live stream. imagine how easily it seems to counterfeit steves wrap and the label on bottom. especially the older boxes with the business card. I would be shocked if the fakers haven't already started to replicate the wrap and label. it seems like a nearly foolproof crime. 99% of these boxes never get opened.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
My thoughts on this (and I am a ripper more than an unopened collector):
Bosox1976
I was reading further on this topic across the hall and came upon an interesting post. It really made me think. here is what the poster said:
"And I'm not even sure how BBCE got their market share. Is it because they were first to do this sort of thing? So many people call Steve an "expert" but what makes him an expert? Just his experience since he was first to create this niche? Was he employed by Fleer back in 1986 and part of the basketball card team so he was able to have this wealth of inside knowledge about how the cards were packaged in packs/boxes/cases? Did he just know enough ppl to start this and drum up enough grassroots business to become "the" guy? He's clearly shown he is not really an expert."
I have been around this hobby for a long time. near on 40 years. I remember when alan rosen sold vintage packs. then Mark Murphy. then Steve. as far as I know, there are no classes to learn pack authentication. is it simply that he has been "doing it for a long time?" if that is the case, there needs to be more transparency in the process.
It is very scary when a whole facet of the hobby is propped up by one man.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I agree with Craig. Experience matters, but obviously for unopened packs, it's kind of a crap shoot. I have about 12 unopened boxes of 1987 opc, 12 1985 Leaf and 12 1987 leaf. The best way I would describe there authenticity would be that I purchased them over 7 years ago and I paid around $20 a box, approximately the value at the time.
I couldn't guarantee anything, bu the fact that these boxes had very few high dollar cards and weren't in demand at the time makes me feel a little better about them being legit. I actually pulled a PSA 10 1987 OPC Bonds form one of them.
Just like any areas of authentication, especially with sports collectibles, there are no "classes" to take. Steve has been involved with unopened product for over 30+ years and this is what he does for a living. Just like the rest of us that practice law, accounting, or whatever, that's what we do for a living and have our levels of expertise. While there are more accountants and lawyers out there than unopened pack authenticators, I think you'll find the opinions of the people that are educated on the topic of unopened product hold Steve in high regard. The opinions of the uninformed need to be thrown out because, well, they are uninformed, and are not based on any sort of fact pattern. I take major issue with the "He's clearly shown he is not really an expert" that is mentioned by that poster. What evidence is there to make that claim?
Like has been mentioned before, Steve is not infallible and has made mistakes in the past. The Pokemon debacle was a huge error on his part and his exercise of judgment on that particular case deserves the criticisms that he received.
However, if we take a deeper dive and look at his broad history of certifying unopened product, while he has definitely not batted 1,000, he has come pretty close in my opinion. It is not an exact science and things have slipped through the cracks (mostly with the stars on top vintage packs perpetrated by Jose) However, I think over the years,
and as he has even commented himself about this, he is extremely conservative when grading, and any time there is even a sliver of doubt in his mind, the pack/box/rack gets rejected. I think that is how we would all want it to be.
As far as my personal dealings with Steve over the years, they have been exceptional. I'm definitely not a big fish, but I was so impressed when I introduced myself to him at the National a number of years ago, he said, Oh, you are from X town in Iowa, right? (He must pay attention to the orders that go out...OR maybe that was a sign that I had placed too many orders). He has always answered all my emails over the years personally with whatever questions I had and to provide education to me on unopened product. He also was able to prevent me from being scammed by some "fake bbce wrapped product" (this was before they moved to their logo wrap), and I will be forever grateful to him for that.
While in an ideal world, it would be nice to have multiple Steve Hart's, but instead of being scared that the unopened market is propped up by one man, I would argue that we are lucky that the one man is Steve Hart.
Just my two cents
Jeremy
Great post Jeremy. I agree with you completely . Everyone makes mistakes. Except one ; and look what we did to him.
I opened hundreds of packs of these back in the day when anything except baseball cards were considered un-collectible.
For my money, if there is no video if the BBCE cello wrap being opened there at The National, my primary suspicion would be that the packs could have been switched out after that seal was cracked.
Can anyone verify whether all 34 of the non-replaced packs displayed this unusual sequence? Since it is undeniably a Frankenstein box, that would be informative as to the possibilities.
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Two big disasters for Steve Hart and he really needs to reevaluate what BBCE can/should authenticate. We can say don't touch Pokemon and enough has been said already. Boy, no more favors for your friends as the 1986 Fleer Basketball Box in question should of never been authenticated when two packs were replaced by Steve. We all make mistakes and the key is to learn from them. Entities like BBCE has a place in the hobby.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned above but Ken Goldin & Whatnot agreed to open a second box of 1986 Fleer that will be given away to the same people involved in the first break.
The break will be aired tonight at 8PM EST on their Instagram page https://www.instagram.com/goldinco/ and (I'm assuming) the whatnot app.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Haha - who has the popcorn girl gif?
Bosox1976
Can you imagine if this box is somehow not authentic or not correlated correctly...
Man, can you imagine if issues were found with the new box. I am hoping all goes well for the sake of this hobby.
Time to rip the bandaid off and see what happens...
Is there any details about this box? Frankenstien or Case fresh?
One thing I am curious about and did not see an answer in this thread.
There was 2 separate PSA packs added to the box. The odds each pack shared the same sequencing as the other 34 packs would be near impossible. Was the sequencing on the 2 packs added correct while the other packs were not?
I believe so. It was the rest of the box that was missing the other sheet.
People get so worked up about those two packs being replaced. Claiming that replacing those two packs made the entire box tampered with. Nobody wants to or can comprehend that a sealed box could have vastly different results from a box that came straight out of a sealed case.
From BBCE’s statement:
3 Typical Sequence Packs with a right edge sheet "flip" card (#15, #26, #36)
1 Typical Sequence Pack with a "flip card" that is not a right edge sheet flip card (#3)
3 Typical Sequence Pack with no flip card (#5, #6, #9)
28 Atypical Sequence with a right edge sheet flip card
1 Atypical Sequence Pack with a "flip card" that is not a right edge sheet flip card #12
36 Total Packs
The two PSA 8 packs added to the box (#5, #9)
My take:
28 of the atypical reverse alphabetical sequencing
1 atypical sequencing (other anomaly)
2 replaced packs - both with typical sequencing
5 typical sequencing
Either the 28 packs were all from the same box or case originally that had a strange sequencing never really scene before - or they were resealed with an incorrect sequence. We will never know for sure.
I hope this box has typical sequencing and strong Jordans and everyone moves on. I will say that it gives the appearance Goldin and WhatNot must believe something was not right or they would not be doing this.
The only way for unopened packs/boxes to actually be labeled as authentic is if the manufacturers were to distribute them labeled that way. For instance, Topp> @brad31 said:
I disagree that it gives the appearance that Goldin and Whatnot must believe something was not right with the first box. I think it gives the appearance that they recognize that OTHERS believe something was amiss and that they care enough about their reputation in the hobby to go extra lenghts to make sure everyone is happy. Spending an extra $150k or $170k on another box to be broken is a big gesture.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
It definitely makes it seem like they're making an effort to build confidence in their companies and restore trust. They're paying a lot to build back trust, and it's probably a sound business decision for both.
Weirdly, by doing this as a do-over to the same folks that bought parts in the first break it makes BBCE look like THEY'RE the ones that made the error and that the box wasn't legit.
Interesting turn.
A lot of so-called "investment groups" these days plunking down big bucks these days with little or no knowledge about the product for which they are spending. That goes for all the bombastic blowhards on social media channels screeching for clicks, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
And when you combine the two you get this lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7mQqXX29m4
Tin-foil hats are required for viewing 😉
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486