That sounds exactly what I'd expect someone in Steve Hart's place to say.
At this point the cat is out of the bag, and he's fighting an uphill battle. No matter what he says there are going to be folks that think it wasn't legit, and that's too bad. He deserves a ton of credit for his thoroughness over the years. Otherwise, things like this would be popping up all the time.
The best thing they can do is release video of the wrap being removed from the box. Even then there will be doubters, but it will calm most people and restore trust in everyone involved.
giantsfan20, I think I pulled 7 Jordan #57 rookies. One graded a PSA 10 which I sold before the COVID mania for $125,000. Many of the packs I posted to a pack ripping thread on this board 10 years or so ago.
The over zealous "middlemen buyers" of the infamous Pokemon case didn't want Logan Paul to end up with it b/c they knew his tendency was to open it....Obviously he did and exposed it for what it was..... I imagine some hoarding investors are sitting on plenty of unfortunate circumstances out there .... I am hopeful technology arrives to cement proof outside of hope.
Looks like the break starts around 1:22:10 but the camera is on the crowd not the cards and along with the first pack falling in alphabetical order, a Jordan was pulled. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu-wQsrvLqs
I dont disagree that anomalies can happen, Ive opened many 80s wax fleer (not 86) and most of the time you know when the jordan is in the pack. Sometimes its not where it should be but... it shows up in another sequence in another pack. Was it tampered w ...who knows. If you get the typical amount of Jordans that should be in the box for that year and they aren't complete duds(dmg, poor centering ,etc) then it may just be a factory quality issue w the sequencing being off a bit. The only thing that I find strange is this anomaly occurring during a highly public live event... its really a tiny chance that that very very rare box that the factory totally messed up is pulled live on tv in a highly publicized event. The fact the box had the correct amount of Jordans in it and they were in decent condition kinda leads me more towards it was a factory issue. If someone is gonna tamper wouldnt they pick out the jordans, maybe leave one or two poor quality ones in the box to make it look more legit and also, if someone is a pro resealer wouldnt they stick to the known sequence as closely as possible? I dunno this was is just odd.
No one is talking about the stickers. An authentic box should have had 3 or 4 Jordan stickers. I believe this box only had 1. I would like to know how many of each sticker there were.
What does this mean for FASC boxes? Are these the boxes to get? While this is whole situation is concerning, we have seen these issues before and I have faith it will work out for the hobby.
The WIWAG drama a long time ago made me have my entire PSA collection reslabbed. They all came back good and I, and the hobby, moved on.
@ndleo said:
What does this mean for FASC boxes? Are these the boxes to get? While this is whole situation is concerning, we have seen these issues before and I have faith it will work out for the hobby.
The WIWAG drama a long time ago made me have my entire PSA collection reslabbed. They all came back good and I, and the hobby, moved on.
There has to be some kind of objectivity in assessing this stuff. A certified box should be held to the same standards an uncertified box would be held to. We can’t get into a situation where every BBCE box that seems wrong is declared to be a factory anomaly, while the same box if found uncertified would be declared resealed. That kind of double standard doesn’t do BBCE any favors.
@PaulMaul said:
Also, what is the value in a franken-box if the collation is so well understood? Why not just sell the packs individually?
The box is worth more than the sum of the packs. Also, most people don’t understand that when BBCE sells a wrapped box that is labeled as “36 packs” that what they’re buying is a Frankenstein box. BBCE needs to be more clear on their labeling.
@PaulMaul said:
Also, what is the value in a franken-box if the collation is so well understood? Why not just sell the packs individually?
The box is worth more than the sum of the packs. Also, most people don’t understand that when BBCE sells a wrapped box that is labeled as “36 packs” that what they’re buying is a Frankenstein box. BBCE needs to be more clear on their labeling.
The question is, WHY would a frankenbox be worth more than the sum of the packs? The only premium that makes sense to me for a full box is for it being original. I can see a hefty premium for FASC, for a frankenbox, I don’t see any added appeal.
@jfkheat said:
No one is talking about the stickers. An authentic box should have had 3 or 4 Jordan stickers. I believe this box only had 1. I would like to know how many of each sticker there were.
Great question feel free to revisit my original post where I asked “ I do have 2 questions though: did the box have 3 Jordan sticker packs?”
Because I only saw 1 in the grading picture and didn’t see the full break hence my question. I would think the box would have 3 and all would have been sent for grading. Also why not grade the Barkleys etc? Would love to see good scans of some of these cards. 🧐
I'll word this carefully . One can play in the dirt with whom one wants.
Both the box front man and the AH front man are on my persona non grata lists. One for nearly 40 years.
I am at a loss to explain how people get drawn into dealing with untrustworthy sources. How many times does it take before an AH is considered untrustworthy ??£
We will never know definitively if BBCE got it wrong or if this was some bizarre mistake in the packaging process. However, I think that the strange sequence does call the box into question. There are a variety of things done to authenticate, but none of them are foolproof. Sequencing can only be known after opening - but I bet that if Steve had say opened 3 packs out of the box - he would not have authenticated based on this sequence.
As a side note - I do think he should randomly open a few packs as part of his authentication process - it would tell him a lot more. If he said he was going to do this - it would become industry standard and the hobby would accept those cards being placed back in the wrapper and put in the top layer of the box.
Anything and everything to stop fraud I am all for.
@jfkheat said:
No one is talking about the stickers. An authentic box should have had 3 or 4 Jordan stickers. I believe this box only had 1. I would like to know how many of each sticker there were.
Here's the original owner's BBCE letter from the authentication, I don't know if this is exactly how the stickers played out but I do know there was only one Jordan sticker pulled.
@jfkheat said:
No one is talking about the stickers. An authentic box should have had 3 or 4 Jordan stickers. I believe this box only had 1. I would like to know how many of each sticker there were.
Here's the original owner's BBCE letter from the authentication, I don't know if this is exactly how the stickers played out but I do know there was only one Jordan sticker pulled.
so if the box was built w packs from multiple boxes to get to 36 how could the entire box have all the alphabetical order packs?
so if the box was built w packs from multiple boxes to get to 36 how could the entire box have all the alphabetical order packs?
This is an amazing point. If they were not from the same box or case - it is unlikely that all packs would have the strange sequence. If it were not a Frankenbox then the stickers would be correct.
Did someone at some point originally open a bunch of boxes from a case, with the unique sequencing, then after knowing the sequence attempt to pull all the Jordans but missed one Jordan pack and one Jordan sticker, put 36 of the packs from the same case together and kept it unopened? Is this now what we have to believe for this box is good?
so if the box was built w packs from multiple boxes to get to 36 how could the entire box have all the alphabetical order packs?
This is an amazing point. If they were not from the same box or case - it is unlikely that all packs would have the strange sequence. If it were not a Frankenbox then the stickers would be correct.
Did someone at some point originally open a bunch of boxes from a case, with the unique sequencing, then after knowing the sequence attempt to pull all the Jordans but missed one Jordan pack and one Jordan sticker, put 36 of the packs from the same case together and kept it unopened? Is this now what we have to believe for this box is good?
Brad, there were 3 regular Jordans and 1 sticker in the box. The regular ones graded 6s and 7s. As far as I know there is no video of WhatNot removing the BBCE wrapper or of all of the packs being opened. What are the chances that WhatNot removed the BBCE wrapper and the authenticated packs and replaced them with bad packs? I would like to know how many of each sticker actually came out of the box.
So we have packs that are out of sequence, cards with wear, and two packs that were bad and had to be pulled. Hard to draw the conclusion that this is a legit box.
If I bought this box I would not be satisfied. At minimum, for my 150k, I’d like some notice that the sequencing is off.
@halosfan said:
I thought the other video was odd … where Steve mentioned 2 of the packs were no good and he added 2 packs to keep it a 36 pack box. That seems extra
The BBCE response is posted above and they don't mention that some of the packs are correct. I went and re-read and it reads like the box was mostly or all out of sequence. You'd think they'd mention that there were cards in sequence, if there were cards in sequence.
Hard to say what's going on here. My original position was that BBCE wouldn't wrap a box that was out of sequence and that this had to be fraudulent wrap, but that doesn't appear to be the case as BBCE is defending the box as being legit but an anomaly.
@jfkheat said:
No one is talking about the stickers. An authentic box should have had 3 or 4 Jordan stickers. I believe this box only had 1. I would like to know how many of each sticker there were.
Here's the original owner's BBCE letter from the authentication, I don't know if this is exactly how the stickers played out but I do know there was only one Jordan sticker pulled.
so if the box was built w packs from multiple boxes to get to 36 how could the entire box have all the alphabetical order packs?
There are so many questions that need to be answered about this box and I have feeling that what we've already heard to this point will be the only answers we get.
I guess the only good out of opening this box at the National was a few collectors received free Jordan rookies in the giveaway.
so if the box was built w packs from multiple boxes to get to 36 how could the entire box have all the alphabetical order packs?
This is an amazing point. If they were not from the same box or case - it is unlikely that all packs would have the strange sequence. If it were not a Frankenbox then the stickers would be correct.
Did someone at some point originally open a bunch of boxes from a case, with the unique sequencing, then after knowing the sequence attempt to pull all the Jordans but missed one Jordan pack and one Jordan sticker, put 36 of the packs from the same case together and kept it unopened? Is this now what we have to believe for this box is good?
Brad, there were 3 regular Jordans and 1 sticker in the box. The regular ones graded 6s and 7s. As far as I know there is no video of WhatNot removing the BBCE wrapper or of all of the packs being opened. What are the chances that WhatNot removed the BBCE wrapper and the authenticated packs and replaced them with bad packs? I would like to know how many of each sticker actually came out of the box.
Thank you for the info - 3 Jordan cards changes things quite a bit.
Steve will be posting publicly about the box later this weekend with data and details that should clarify a lot of the questions being posed here. It is also important to note that collation anomalies from the factory are not always evident until the packs are opened, especially with wax.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@grote15 said:
Steve will be posting publicly about the box later this weekend with data and details that should clarify a lot of the questions being posed here. It is also important to note that collation anomalies from the factory are not always evident until the packs are opened, especially with wax.
You know far more then I do about wax. Question - with 86 Fleer can you see the top card, if so would that indicate what the back card / sticker should be assuming the collation is BAU?
The whole thing just smells. It's a put-together box in which at least two packs are known to be bad. So Steve replaces those. The packs all get opened and the sequencing is weird, to say the least. But, given that two packs from the original submitted box were bad (but replaced) and the weird sequencing, I just can't believe it's legit.
@grote15 said:
Steve will be posting publicly about the box later this weekend with data and details that should clarify a lot of the questions being posed here. It is also important to note that collation anomalies from the factory are not always evident until the packs are opened, especially with wax.
You know far more then I do about wax. Question - with 86 Fleer can you see the top card, if so would that indicate what the back card / sticker should be assuming the collation is BAU?
To my knowledge, the sticker is not determined by the cards within the pack, but should be distributed evenly throughout a factory original and intact 86 Fleer box. That said, my collecting focus and experience have always been based on vintage unopened baseball primarily and I am not a basketball card collector.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@grote15 said:
Steve will be posting publicly about the box later this weekend with data and details that should clarify a lot of the questions being posed here. It is also important to note that collation anomalies from the factory are not always evident until the packs are opened, especially with wax.
You know far more then I do about wax. Question - with 86 Fleer can you see the top card, if so would that indicate what the back card / sticker should be assuming the collation is BAU?
To my knowledge, the sticker is not determined by the cards within the pack, but should be distributed evenly throughout a factory original and intact 86 Fleer box. That said, my collecting focus and experience have always been based on vintage unopened baseball primarily and I am not a basketball card collector.
@80sOPC said:
So we have packs that are out of sequence, cards with wear, and two packs that were bad and had to be pulled. Hard to draw the conclusion that this is a legit box.
If I bought this box I would not be satisfied. At minimum, for my 150k, I’d like some notice that the sequencing is off.
@halosfan said:
I thought the other video was odd … where Steve mentioned 2 of the packs were no good and he added 2 packs to keep it a 36 pack box. That seems extra
so if the box was built w packs from multiple boxes to get to 36 how could the entire box have all the alphabetical order packs?
This is an amazing point. If they were not from the same box or case - it is unlikely that all packs would have the strange sequence. If it were not a Frankenbox then the stickers would be correct.
Did someone at some point originally open a bunch of boxes from a case, with the unique sequencing, then after knowing the sequence attempt to pull all the Jordans but missed one Jordan pack and one Jordan sticker, put 36 of the packs from the same case together and kept it unopened? Is this now what we have to believe for this box is good?
Brad, there were 3 regular Jordans and 1 sticker in the box. The regular ones graded 6s and 7s. As far as I know there is no video of WhatNot removing the BBCE wrapper or of all of the packs being opened. What are the chances that WhatNot removed the BBCE wrapper and the authenticated packs and replaced them with bad packs? I would like to know how many of each sticker actually came out of the box.
Thank you for the info - 3 Jordan cards changes things quite a bit.
It really doesn’t change things though. They were low grade #57 probably placed into the box in a weak attempt to throw off suspicion. It is unlikely that two pack fresh Jordans would grade 6.
This is all very questionable. I am interested in knowing how many of the packs had the incorrect sequencing (ie the packs that were in sequential order). Lots of crazy things can happen for sure at the factory but 2 of those packs had to have the proper sequencing, there is a 0% chance that Steve replaced two packs from the submitted box with 2 that did not follow the standard 86 Fleer sequencing. IMO there is also no chance that a frankenstein box would have all packs with incorrect sequencing or in this case the other 34.
I have not watched the original video of the entire break, so I don't know how many packs had the oddball sequencing. I think that will be one of the telltale signs to help determine if the box was legit or not. I like Steve personally and have done a lot of business with him (though not as much now that vintage wax costs so much), so he gets the benefit of the doubt for now from me. I know he has made mistakes in the past (I have definitely bought some material that was resealed, the whole star on top cello fiasco, Pokemon case, etc.) but I have never personally had any issues with 86 Fleer bsk from him or heard from anyone that ripped packs/boxes that he vouched for that has either.
As for resealers, some are good enough to know that they have to seed star cards in their resealed product to allay suspicion. Not saying that is what happened here but pulling the right number of Jordan RCs from a frankenstein box doesn't mean as much as some people would assume.
In the end, Steve makes mistakes just like everyone else. There are an astronomical number of trimmed/altered cards in PSA, BGS, & SGC holders, so slab holders shouldn't be casting stones at those that collect unopened. Same can be said for authenticated autos, game used gear, etc. I don't think there is any aspect of the hobby that hasn't dealt with this sort of issue.
Where did the 2 replaced packs come from? Did the owner replace them or did BBCE and why would they replace the packs ? Was there a sale on the 2 packs?
Just an opinion but , mistakes are made, graders make mistakes, submitters make mistakes and I’m sure BBCE makes mistakes too.
@TsavoriteSam said:
Where did the 2 replaced packs come from? Did the owner replace them or did BBCE and why would they replace the packs ? Was there a sale on the 2 packs?
Just an opinion but , mistakes are made, graders make mistakes, submitters make mistakes and I’m sure BBCE makes mistakes too.
Steve was asked to authenticate the entire box. He authenticated 34 of 36 packs, but returned 2 packs to the owner without authentication because 1 pack was unsearched but had a loose flap, and the other pack was deemed to have been opened and resealed.
It is my understanding that the box was not a Frankenstein box until these 2 packs were replaced, and that 34 of the 36 packs were original to the box. If we had video of the entire break, then I’m assuming the 2 replaced packs would have had correct collation.
so if the box was built w packs from multiple boxes to get to 36 how could the entire box have all the alphabetical order packs?
This is an amazing point. If they were not from the same box or case - it is unlikely that all packs would have the strange sequence. If it were not a Frankenbox then the stickers would be correct.
Did someone at some point originally open a bunch of boxes from a case, with the unique sequencing, then after knowing the sequence attempt to pull all the Jordans but missed one Jordan pack and one Jordan sticker, put 36 of the packs from the same case together and kept it unopened? Is this now what we have to believe for this box is good?
Brad, there were 3 regular Jordans and 1 sticker in the box. The regular ones graded 6s and 7s. As far as I know there is no video of WhatNot removing the BBCE wrapper or of all of the packs being opened. What are the chances that WhatNot removed the BBCE wrapper and the authenticated packs and replaced them with bad packs? I would like to know how many of each sticker actually came out of the box.
Thank you for the info - 3 Jordan cards changes things quite a bit.
It really doesn’t change things though. They were low grade #57 probably placed into the box in a weak attempt to throw off suspicion. It is unlikely that two pack fresh Jordans would grade 6.
I have to disagree. I just got done going through a set + of 86 fleer for someone to determine gradability - they were from packs straight to binder. Granted they were put in the binder 30+ years ago, but of those my opinion was max grade on 90% was 6-7, no 10’s, 1 or 2 had a shot at 9, half a dozen had a shot at 8, and the rest were lower. For the 2 Jordan’s he had, one was max 7, but I’d bet 6, and the other was max 5. 6-7 is typical for these right out of the pack.
@TsavoriteSam said:
Where did the 2 replaced packs come from? Did the owner replace them or did BBCE and why would they replace the packs ? Was there a sale on the 2 packs?
Just an opinion but , mistakes are made, graders make mistakes, submitters make mistakes and I’m sure BBCE makes mistakes too.
According to the video, the two packs were graded psa packs.
Comments
That sounds exactly what I'd expect someone in Steve Hart's place to say.
At this point the cat is out of the bag, and he's fighting an uphill battle. No matter what he says there are going to be folks that think it wasn't legit, and that's too bad. He deserves a ton of credit for his thoroughness over the years. Otherwise, things like this would be popping up all the time.
The best thing they can do is release video of the wrap being removed from the box. Even then there will be doubters, but it will calm most people and restore trust in everyone involved.
giantsfan20, I think I pulled 7 Jordan #57 rookies. One graded a PSA 10 which I sold before the COVID mania for $125,000. Many of the packs I posted to a pack ripping thread on this board 10 years or so ago.
Robb
The over zealous "middlemen buyers" of the infamous Pokemon case didn't want Logan Paul to end up with it b/c they knew his tendency was to open it....Obviously he did and exposed it for what it was..... I imagine some hoarding investors are sitting on plenty of unfortunate circumstances out there .... I am hopeful technology arrives to cement proof outside of hope.
Oooooh, conspiracy--Maybe this was a different box then the one certified. The "smoking" box.
Gretzky,Ripken, and Sandberg collection. Still trying to complete 1975 Topps baseball set from when I was a kid.
Welp, this has been entertaining as hell. Can't wait for the next shoe to drop.
My Podcast - Now FEATURED on iTunes
Looks like the break starts around 1:22:10 but the camera is on the crowd not the cards and along with the first pack falling in alphabetical order, a Jordan was pulled.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu-wQsrvLqs
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Don’t quite understand the screaming of hitting a Jordan rookie. Any legit box is going to have 3 of them in average,
I dont disagree that anomalies can happen, Ive opened many 80s wax fleer (not 86) and most of the time you know when the jordan is in the pack. Sometimes its not where it should be but... it shows up in another sequence in another pack. Was it tampered w ...who knows. If you get the typical amount of Jordans that should be in the box for that year and they aren't complete duds(dmg, poor centering ,etc) then it may just be a factory quality issue w the sequencing being off a bit. The only thing that I find strange is this anomaly occurring during a highly public live event... its really a tiny chance that that very very rare box that the factory totally messed up is pulled live on tv in a highly publicized event. The fact the box had the correct amount of Jordans in it and they were in decent condition kinda leads me more towards it was a factory issue. If someone is gonna tamper wouldnt they pick out the jordans, maybe leave one or two poor quality ones in the box to make it look more legit and also, if someone is a pro resealer wouldnt they stick to the known sequence as closely as possible? I dunno this was is just odd.
No one is talking about the stickers. An authentic box should have had 3 or 4 Jordan stickers. I believe this box only had 1. I would like to know how many of each sticker there were.
What does this mean for FASC boxes? Are these the boxes to get? While this is whole situation is concerning, we have seen these issues before and I have faith it will work out for the hobby.
The WIWAG drama a long time ago made me have my entire PSA collection reslabbed. They all came back good and I, and the hobby, moved on.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
If it wasn’t for that Pokémon fiasco, nobody would be questioning Steve’s rundown. That thing is going to haunt him for the rest of his life.
There has to be some kind of objectivity in assessing this stuff. A certified box should be held to the same standards an uncertified box would be held to. We can’t get into a situation where every BBCE box that seems wrong is declared to be a factory anomaly, while the same box if found uncertified would be declared resealed. That kind of double standard doesn’t do BBCE any favors.
Also, what is the value in a franken-box if the collation is so well understood? Why not just sell the packs individually?
The box is worth more than the sum of the packs. Also, most people don’t understand that when BBCE sells a wrapped box that is labeled as “36 packs” that what they’re buying is a Frankenstein box. BBCE needs to be more clear on their labeling.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
According to Steve, above, the sequence was almost correct.
The question is, WHY would a frankenbox be worth more than the sum of the packs? The only premium that makes sense to me for a full box is for it being original. I can see a hefty premium for FASC, for a frankenbox, I don’t see any added appeal.
Great question feel free to revisit my original post where I asked “ I do have 2 questions though: did the box have 3 Jordan sticker packs?”
Because I only saw 1 in the grading picture and didn’t see the full break hence my question. I would think the box would have 3 and all would have been sent for grading. Also why not grade the Barkleys etc? Would love to see good scans of some of these cards. 🧐
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
I'll word this carefully . One can play in the dirt with whom one wants.
Both the box front man and the AH front man are on my persona non grata lists. One for nearly 40 years.
I am at a loss to explain how people get drawn into dealing with untrustworthy sources. How many times does it take before an AH is considered untrustworthy ??£
We will never know definitively if BBCE got it wrong or if this was some bizarre mistake in the packaging process. However, I think that the strange sequence does call the box into question. There are a variety of things done to authenticate, but none of them are foolproof. Sequencing can only be known after opening - but I bet that if Steve had say opened 3 packs out of the box - he would not have authenticated based on this sequence.
As a side note - I do think he should randomly open a few packs as part of his authentication process - it would tell him a lot more. If he said he was going to do this - it would become industry standard and the hobby would accept those cards being placed back in the wrapper and put in the top layer of the box.
Anything and everything to stop fraud I am all for.
Here's the original owner's BBCE letter from the authentication, I don't know if this is exactly how the stickers played out but I do know there was only one Jordan sticker pulled.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Totally offtopic but kind of related in a way, this is a pretty cool way to display an '86 Fleer set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm5SUiuwXUU
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Man, the display may be worth more than the cards in those weird holders lol
My Podcast - Now FEATURED on iTunes
I thought the other video was odd … where Steve mentioned 2 of the packs were no good and he added 2 packs to keep it a 36 pack box. That seems extra
so if the box was built w packs from multiple boxes to get to 36 how could the entire box have all the alphabetical order packs?
Excellent question. That does contradict what Steve from BBCE said
This is an amazing point. If they were not from the same box or case - it is unlikely that all packs would have the strange sequence. If it were not a Frankenbox then the stickers would be correct.
Did someone at some point originally open a bunch of boxes from a case, with the unique sequencing, then after knowing the sequence attempt to pull all the Jordans but missed one Jordan pack and one Jordan sticker, put 36 of the packs from the same case together and kept it unopened? Is this now what we have to believe for this box is good?
Brad, there were 3 regular Jordans and 1 sticker in the box. The regular ones graded 6s and 7s. As far as I know there is no video of WhatNot removing the BBCE wrapper or of all of the packs being opened. What are the chances that WhatNot removed the BBCE wrapper and the authenticated packs and replaced them with bad packs? I would like to know how many of each sticker actually came out of the box.
So we have packs that are out of sequence, cards with wear, and two packs that were bad and had to be pulled. Hard to draw the conclusion that this is a legit box.
If I bought this box I would not be satisfied. At minimum, for my 150k, I’d like some notice that the sequencing is off.
Hold on here, so the two replaced packs ALSO had the bad sequencing? What is going on here man lol.
Did it say somewhere that the whole box had bad sequencing? I'm not sure.
The BBCE response is posted above and they don't mention that some of the packs are correct. I went and re-read and it reads like the box was mostly or all out of sequence. You'd think they'd mention that there were cards in sequence, if there were cards in sequence.
Hard to say what's going on here. My original position was that BBCE wouldn't wrap a box that was out of sequence and that this had to be fraudulent wrap, but that doesn't appear to be the case as BBCE is defending the box as being legit but an anomaly.
There are so many questions that need to be answered about this box and I have feeling that what we've already heard to this point will be the only answers we get.
I guess the only good out of opening this box at the National was a few collectors received free Jordan rookies in the giveaway.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Thank you for the info - 3 Jordan cards changes things quite a bit.
Steve will be posting publicly about the box later this weekend with data and details that should clarify a lot of the questions being posed here. It is also important to note that collation anomalies from the factory are not always evident until the packs are opened, especially with wax.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You know far more then I do about wax. Question - with 86 Fleer can you see the top card, if so would that indicate what the back card / sticker should be assuming the collation is BAU?
The whole thing just smells. It's a put-together box in which at least two packs are known to be bad. So Steve replaces those. The packs all get opened and the sequencing is weird, to say the least. But, given that two packs from the original submitted box were bad (but replaced) and the weird sequencing, I just can't believe it's legit.
To my knowledge, the sticker is not determined by the cards within the pack, but should be distributed evenly throughout a factory original and intact 86 Fleer box. That said, my collecting focus and experience have always been based on vintage unopened baseball primarily and I am not a basketball card collector.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Thank you, if that’s the case then Steve wouldn’t know a franken box was out of sequence. Important point IMO
but, but, but, it was Steve... says the masses.
this will get swept under the rug.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It really doesn’t change things though. They were low grade #57 probably placed into the box in a weak attempt to throw off suspicion. It is unlikely that two pack fresh Jordans would grade 6.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
This is all very questionable. I am interested in knowing how many of the packs had the incorrect sequencing (ie the packs that were in sequential order). Lots of crazy things can happen for sure at the factory but 2 of those packs had to have the proper sequencing, there is a 0% chance that Steve replaced two packs from the submitted box with 2 that did not follow the standard 86 Fleer sequencing. IMO there is also no chance that a frankenstein box would have all packs with incorrect sequencing or in this case the other 34.
I have not watched the original video of the entire break, so I don't know how many packs had the oddball sequencing. I think that will be one of the telltale signs to help determine if the box was legit or not. I like Steve personally and have done a lot of business with him (though not as much now that vintage wax costs so much), so he gets the benefit of the doubt for now from me. I know he has made mistakes in the past (I have definitely bought some material that was resealed, the whole star on top cello fiasco, Pokemon case, etc.) but I have never personally had any issues with 86 Fleer bsk from him or heard from anyone that ripped packs/boxes that he vouched for that has either.
As for resealers, some are good enough to know that they have to seed star cards in their resealed product to allay suspicion. Not saying that is what happened here but pulling the right number of Jordan RCs from a frankenstein box doesn't mean as much as some people would assume.
In the end, Steve makes mistakes just like everyone else. There are an astronomical number of trimmed/altered cards in PSA, BGS, & SGC holders, so slab holders shouldn't be casting stones at those that collect unopened. Same can be said for authenticated autos, game used gear, etc. I don't think there is any aspect of the hobby that hasn't dealt with this sort of issue.
Robb
A little OT but part of the same story. Any background on the 2013 Prizm BKB with the fake Panini wrap?
This one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m3D8I75tTc
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Where did the 2 replaced packs come from? Did the owner replace them or did BBCE and why would they replace the packs ? Was there a sale on the 2 packs?
Just an opinion but , mistakes are made, graders make mistakes, submitters make mistakes and I’m sure BBCE makes mistakes too.
Steve was asked to authenticate the entire box. He authenticated 34 of 36 packs, but returned 2 packs to the owner without authentication because 1 pack was unsearched but had a loose flap, and the other pack was deemed to have been opened and resealed.
It is my understanding that the box was not a Frankenstein box until these 2 packs were replaced, and that 34 of the 36 packs were original to the box. If we had video of the entire break, then I’m assuming the 2 replaced packs would have had correct collation.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
I have to disagree. I just got done going through a set + of 86 fleer for someone to determine gradability - they were from packs straight to binder. Granted they were put in the binder 30+ years ago, but of those my opinion was max grade on 90% was 6-7, no 10’s, 1 or 2 had a shot at 9, half a dozen had a shot at 8, and the rest were lower. For the 2 Jordan’s he had, one was max 7, but I’d bet 6, and the other was max 5. 6-7 is typical for these right out of the pack.
According to the video, the two packs were graded psa packs.
That’s fine, so did the person who sent the box in buy the 2 graded packs to replace the bad ones?