1986 Fleer Basketball Box Break At The National
totallyradd
Posts: 933 ✭✭✭
OOF. This isn't going to be a good look for anyone involved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qthBP-XBTvw&t=326s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL33mtprMZY2
Comments
Yikes….
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
As mentioned in another thread tip of iceberg for these situations. The more stuff opened the more BBCE fakes will come to light. While the culprits may never be found it will reveal a lot about the mettle, professionalism, morals and ethics of Dealers, Sellers and Auction Houses who sell these boxes and cases. My guess based on what I've seen in the hobby for 35 years is they have little of the 1st two bolded items and none of the last two.
BTW is also apparently being done with common as dirt 1987 Topps baseball:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1053846/graded-psa-cards-sold-me-a-resealed-wax-box#latest
2012 Box:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1079777/at-first-g-i-joe-made-an-appearance-then-more-recently-austin-powers#latest
But I see the tip of the iceberg, and I worry about you - Neil Peart
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. This appears to be another very, very, very bad look for BBCE. I'm so glad I'm not into any crazy pack etc.
Wait…..Goldin is involved in this? Noooooo……Im shocked (sarcasm font).
I have a 1986 Donruss box I bought about 10 years ago and it looks suspect. Wax appears to be reheated.
Anyone familiar with wax from that issue?
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
My guess is it was "re-wrapped' which in itself is huge problem.
If it was a fraudulent action committed certainly not BBCE's fault. However there is way, way too much easy money to be made by bad actors and they will become more numerous and get more advanced. IMHO a better solution than mere wrap for boxes and cases is required.
Again the reports thus far tip of iceberg stuff. I'd be very concerned if i had older wrap item purchases since 2019.
P.S. I'd be interested in Goldin's response assuming there ever is any. if not done already he may want to contact his or is it Steve Cohen's attorney. Don't worry though folks Goldin will be just fine
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I have bought over 50 individual packs of 86 fleer basketball wax from BBCE (and opened every one), none of the raw BBCE packs were bad. The only 86 fleer pack I ever got from them that was bad, had been graded by GAI and was sold in the GAI holder. Steve and I worked it out afterwards.
I would bet the box was rewrapped. I don't see Steve making a mistake on an entire 86 Fleer basketball box.
Robb
Was the BBCE wrap ripped open on camera? If it wasn’t, seems very likely what was on display, isn’t what was ripped. If it was, and that’s what was authenticated, wow…not good.
this is a terrible look for BBCE. I can only see 2 scenarios: the box was originally authentic, was unwrapped, fake packs replaced authentic ones and then rewrapped in fake bbce wrap. or, steve missed on the original authentication.
both scenarios are really really bad. in the first one, the technique used by bbce to wrap authentic boxes is able to be faked.
in the second, BBCE authentication was incompetent.
a 1986 fleer basketball box should be a very straightforward proposition. I have long questioned how resistant to tampering/counterfeiting BBCE wrap could be. so much confidence and trust is put into simple saran wrap. hardly anyone ever actually opens the wrap to inspect the packs themselves so it is really pretty scary thinking about what may actually be inside the wrap.
it makes me feel very good I am not an unopened collector.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Hopefully it isn't a third scenario of straight fraud... Maybe Vintage wax will get really cheap. xD
This is what happens when the industry makes one guy infallible. I actually think more mistakes are made the other way (not certified but are legit), but you don't hear about those (because they are not sealed). An interesting bit of the hobby that I probably wouldn't collect. An unopened sealed box is assumed legit and can only be found otherwise if opened. Certain things sold on ebay BBCE wrapped may have changed several hands. I guess if you sell something, you almost hope the buyer doesn't crack it.
Gretzky,Ripken, and Sandberg collection. Still trying to complete 1975 Topps baseball set from when I was a kid.
probably much more than we would imagine.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I never added straight fraud from steve. i never have thought he was dishonest, but I guess when dollars are involved, you never know.
if that is what happened, the unopened market would crash for sure.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I know I’m considered an 86 Fleer unopened expert so I don’t say this lightly but after watching the videos I’m not sure I agree these are searched packs. I wish I could have seen the entire box rip sequence but I think this might be how the packs came from the factory. It’s rare and not how they usually alternate but it’s how the sheet is printed so if you just took the cut sheet rows in the factory and packaged them this is how they’d appear.
Also I think if you actually had went thru the trouble and searched a box you’d pull the Jordan and Barkleys etc not leave them all in there. I do have 2 questions though: did the box have 3 Jordan sticker packs? And It’s not unheard of for fresh cards to grade 7’s but why did they grade a 7 if because corner wear that might actually be a concern about them being replaced. Also if I was just going to replace the Jordan with lesser cards I wouldn’t undue the every other sequence when putting it back together so that doesn’t make sense to me either.
Have a few questions but while odd I’m not ready to call this a searched box.
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1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
From one of the videos of the break, there were at least three packs where the cards came out in alphabetical order. I have never heard of or seen that happen before.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
The picture quality isn't great but these were pulled from that box. Two PSA 7, one PSA 6 and one PSA 8(st) Sticker
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Cmon, really? Number order and you think it’s not a resealed pack?
I'm suspicious as to what happened to that box once it left BBCE's hands after it was first authenticated. ESPECIALLY once it touched WhatNot's hands. Not throwing accusations at them, I just wouldn't trust them with a pack of 1988 Topps Baseball.
Unfortunately it's pretty easy to reseal ANY cellophane, but if they didn't even show the removal of the cellophane on camera, then this conversation is over anyway.
On the photos from BBCE and Goldin the cellophane logos are all in the exact same places. That does seem to indicate no one messed with it between the two.
If there was tinkering it would seem to be prior to wrap or after it left the auction. If they showed video of them unwrapping then those logos should be easy to verify if they’re in the same locations as the photos.
I once opened a box of 1987 Donruss baseball in which the cards were all in numeric order.
Now I'm curious how the Drake/Golden '86 Fleer Jordans from that box break in March graded. Anyone know?
Your opinion is interesting because I’ve been wondering if it is possible that this is how this particular box was packed. I say this because it’s so hard to believe that Steve would miss on the entirety of an 86 Fleer box. This isn’t Pokémon, it’s a product that he has a huge amount of experience with. He inspects every pack, and I just find it hard to believe that someone with the skill to reseal 36 packs convincingly enough to get them past Steve would not know about the typical sequencing for 86 Fleer.
Here's the full interview between Steve and the previous owner of that box.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qDceU7-gos&t=3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6nqUEkHEPk
part 1
part 2
There are also parts 3-4 but those lead into other topics.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Quality control 35 years ago isn't what it is today, so I suppose it's possible. A few years ago there was a Jabs Family video of him ripping a box of 78 or 79 Topps and all the cards came from the same couple of sheets. The coalation matched, but the only HOFers in the entire box weren't the hobby heroes (names like Gaylord Perry, Bruce Suter, Robin Yount). Packs were all deemed authentic, but a packaging error at Topps. I had a 79 cello pack come back as altered because the colation of front and back card were off. Sent the pack to Steve, and he opened it, and deemed it authentic with a colation anomoly. He sent me a different cello in return. I hope for BBCE's sake there is an explanation to what happened here, or if there was tampering after it left BBCEs hands.
I don't think 3 Jordans would be in there if it was tampered, but I suppose it would deter the buyer?
unless the person who had the skill to fool steve was banking on the eventual owner never opening. most wrapped boxes are never opened.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
it sure seems, the more i think about it that unopened is a rather fragile house of cards. the vast bulk of these high dollar boxes/cases will never be opened. the owners do not know with certainty what they really have beneath the wrap. a huge portion of this niche is predicated on the expertise of one man. i would be very concerned if I had big money invested.
I remember after the pokemon debacle, that most excused steve from blame because he is a sports "expert"
I wonder what the excuse will be this time?
as far as this box/packs being factory original in the sequence they were opened, extremely unlikely. it would be a true unicorn. I think that had the box been authenticated by anyone but steve, 100% consensus would be fake. but the excuses are already mounting...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Trust me, I was ready to say Steve has lost all credibility, but if this was repacked, and the person doing it was counting on it never being opened, then there’s absolutely no reason to leave the Jordan’s in.
Everything I’ve seen so far is that this has all the indications of a legit box but the sequencing was wrong. I know that’s a big “but”, but it just doesn’t make sense.
BBCE supposedly replaced 2 packs according to this video below:
Wouldn't those have been collated as normal? From the videos of the break shown before, it is suggested that every pack was sequenced alphabetically.
If the sequence was out Steve wouldn’t seal the box. So while I agree there could be rare scenarios where that occurs, a box like that doesn’t get wrapped.
Most likely is the wrapper was tampered with. When playing high stakes / high value like this, how hard would it be to replicate printed plastic wrap and a business card? And once that investment is made, you can replicate it over and over. It is the perfect scam, relatively low investment, high reward and when you consider most of this stuff stays sealed, risk is insanely low. Buy a 150k box of 71 topps, crack, reseal, reseal, hold for 5 years and sell for 200k. If you have the cash flow its the prefect scam.
I get bad collation happening in a box, but for every pack to be in alphabetical order? The odds of that happening randomly when it was originally packaged seems pretty slim. I'm not sure I've ever seen that before anywhere in any pack of any kind.
So was this a frankensein box to begin with?? I mean I guess it was if 2 of the packs were altered right? . So how would so many all random packs have this odd sequence? Is there any video of the BBCE seal being opened? Why not a video of the whole show and just a few min clips. And we are sure all 36 packs were in alphabetical order? And it having 3 jordans in it doesnt mean anything to me about making it legit. Maybe because they knew it was going to be opened is my guess.
So many questions its just hard to understand the whole story right now for me.
The packs DID NOT come from the factory in Alphabetic order. There are YouTube videos that tell you the proper sequence. Sorry.....someone was "had".
The correct sequence involves 66 cards. Here is a link that I hope explains it.
https://allvintagecards.com/1986-fleer-basketball-pack-sequence/
First Card #22
Second Card #88
Third Card #21
Fourth Card #87
Fifth Card #20
Sixth Card #86
and maybe we get a random flip on card #7 to say #110
we know the next card will be a difference of 66 cards, or card #44
The set 1-132 is in alphabetical order, and a typical pack has two sets of numbers that just alternate:
121 - Dominique Wilkins
54 - Marques Johnson
120 - Spud Webb
53 - Magic Johnson
119 - Bill Walton
You can see that every other card is still alphabetical. The packs opened on Whatnot appeared to have the correct cards in the packs based on the usual sequence. The issue is that Marques Johnson/Magic Johnson/the other Johnsons were all in a row and then you had all of the Wilkins/WEbb/Walton/etc all in a row in another group in the pack. Those two groups should alternate as seen in the sequence listed above.
Could that be a very rare factory error? You would think one person would be able to say they have seen it happen before.
I watched it live on Whatnot and I don't remember them unwrapping the 1986 fleer box. I could be wrong, but I don't recall it happening. I've looked and I can't find the video of the full break.
If there’s no video of the seal being broken, I’m inclined to think whoever was behind Whatnot is responsible for some shenanigans.
How many M.Jordan and other stars did you get. Was it good value and mix for price paid.
Also that is odd for a pack to be consecutive numbered? Wonder what the rest of packs were like?
C
The Jordans were 7’s and 6’s. Low quality. It’s a red herring to dissuade suspicion.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
Agreed....someone went to great lengths NOT to outright rip someone off, but to definitely take advantage of the sealed wax box market.
I think the inaccuracy above is fairly prevalent to most collectors and I can see what a lot of folks would make an assumption the packs were faked with this belief.
Again I have no horse in this race, I’ve never participated in a what not break or any pack break for that matter and only a couple box breaks in my life. I have bought and sold thru Goldin but never an 86 basketball product. I’m just an ‘86 unopened basketball collector that most consider an expert.
Let me dispel a couple myths if it helps you make a more informed opinion on this break starting with the the cards DO NOT come alphabetically
1. The cards actually came from the factory in alphabetic order that’s why Kareem Abduljabbar is card #1 and James Worthy #131 with every card in between being in alphabetical order. How do the cards get in a pack? They cut a 132 card sheet in half and lay the 2 halves over themselves and cut them for the packs. That’s what creates the 66 card alternating normal sequence.
What happens if the top sheet isn't overlayed when the half sheet gets cut? …All the cards are in alphabetic order like these packs were.
2. The 66 sequence sometime randomly flips. Total myth the sequence flips when you hit the right side of the sheet and there’s no more cards left in the sequence.
On the sequence website listed they show a “random unpredicted” flip sequence:
So, first pack looked like this:
45 - Gerald Henderson
111 - Mychal Thompson
88 - Paul Pressey
22 - Brad Davis
87 - Ricky Pierce
21 - Adrian Dantley
86 - Sam Perkins
20 - Terry Cummings
85 - Jim Paxson
19 - Pat Cummings
84 - Robert Parish
18 - Wayne Cooper
Now take a look at the uncut sheet and see where Gerald Henderson lands:
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
IF all the packs (except the two that Steve replaced) were in alphabetical order than I would think the box is good. I realize that is not the normal sequencing BUT one of their employees may have screwed up or just got lazy. I want/hope this was just an error by Fleer and not BBCE. I agree with the post above that it really does not make much sense. There were 3 Jordan rookies in the box and they all graded out. A dishonest person that is repacking the box full of commons is not going to leave the three Jordans. Sometimes I have to think like a criminal and try to think of ways that i would do it to make logic of it all.
1. Do I package this up with the same sequencing and insert a common where the rookie cards fall?
2. Do I package this up with all the cards in order and leave zero value in the packs in alphabetical order?
BBCE knows this product very well as Ryan stated. If the sequencing and stickers don't match-he won't wrap it.
When Sports cards blew up and prices doubled and tripled in less than a year, and everyone and their Mother started collecting this was bound to happen. Greed will make people do just about anything.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I wonder why after Mychal Johnson and Magic Johnson there was Randy Johnson??
At 6' 10", Randy Johnson could have played basketball.
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
EXACTLY... where is the video of Whatnot opening the cellophane?? BBCE and Goldin have excellent long-standing reputations, and here we have Whatnot who is relatively new to the scene and have been sending sketchy vibes from the jump, Who has more to lose and who has more to gain here? Whatnot is all about the clicks, and what's bigger than trying to take down a couple well-established giants?
All this talk about collation, and we're ignoring the possibility of Whatnot swapping out packs before bringing the box onto the stage.
That sort of makes sense. But if the sheets were always placed on top of each other before the packs were put together, why would they stop that process and all of a sudden put packs together without layering the sheets?
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
I think there is enough input here from very knowledgeable collectors to cast doubt over any argument, regardless of what you believe. I don't know the answer to this situation, but it doesn't appear that anyone else does either. Until hard facts come to light, let's hold off on attempting to ruin anyone's reputation here.
Lots of experts in this thread, most of whom have little to no experience with vintage unopened product, lodging an assortment of suppositions and allegations. Those of you who collect vintage unopened product know that collation anomalies and aberrations for most years (especially with Topps) are not exactly rare and while certainly less common with a product like 1986 Fleer basketball, certainly not out of the realm of possibility, either.
The following is from Steve himself:
Let me explain how 1986/87 Fleer basketball collation runs within the packs. The cards come in the packs in reverse alphabetical order (Z to A) in 2 separate groups separated by 66. For example,
125
59
124
58
123
57
122
56
121
55
As you can see, the 2 groups of numbers are in reverse alphabetical order, intertwined within each other, separated by 66. This is how people can search out the packs with Jordan in them (or any other card). You just need to see what the top card is and the run is easily figured out.
This pattern is very consistent throughout the print run for 1986/87 Fleer basketball. However, there has been some anomalies that have popped up. Several years ago we were looking through the backs of the packs on a back to view the sticker showing. This helps us determine if the box has had packs switched in and out of it, or if it is a box that is still in its original form from Fleer. I was looking at the back and something crazy was staring at me. It was a Pittsburgh Pirates logo cards. Then another pack had a Kansas City Royals card on back. In 1986, it wasn’t all that important to get it completely correct on the printing. Remember, this stuff was worthless garbage. It probably was at some point they were printing Fleer Basketball Stickers and the Fleer Baseball Stickers (probably came in the 1986 Fleer baseball update set). The point was to print this stuff and get it shipped out. Also, if you look at VCP for the Jordan Sticker, you will see a listing for one with a Cincinnati Reds overlay graded by BGS to confirm this. Then a few years ago, Vegas Dave did a live break on a 1986/87 Fleer basketball box where he had celebrities call in and virtually open a pack. While we were watching this live break, something very rare and odd happened. A pack was opened and it had 2 of the same card back to back. I cant remember exactly who the card was, but for example it was Sedale Threatt fallowed by another Sedale Threatt. And/or there was a pack that had Louis Orr, followed by another card, then followed by another Louis Orr (not exactly sure on the player as this is just an example). Again, this is something we had really never seen before. The whole box was opened and everything about it was 100% good. So this is just another example that while rare, strange things happen.
So that brings us to this box in question. I was informed by email from someone that the cards were coming out in the completely wrong order with multiple cards in the packs (someone told me there was something like 4 Magic Johnsons in a pack). My first reaction was wondering what was going on here. So my team and I sat down and wrote down each and every card in the packs that we can find that were opened and now on the internet. We then studied it very carefully. The cards were not exactly in an order that was “completely off” (and there weren’t 4 Magic Johnsons in one pack, there were 4 Johnsons in one pack, all being a different Johnson). The cards still went in reverse alphabetical order in the packs. They just didn’t have the second run of alphabetical cards intertwined in them. There is also a point where there are doubles back to back. But more importantly, there is a pack where the cards run in this reverse order, then flip the other direction. Then this happens again in another pack in the EXACT same spot. Here were the runs:
Pack A Pack B
Tisdale Thompson
Threatt FLIP TO BLACKMON
Thompson Birdsong
FLIP TO BLACKMON Bird
Birdsong Benjamin
Bird Barkley
Benjamin Bailey
Barkley Bagley
Bailey Ainge
Bagley AGuirre
Ainge Adams
AGuirre Abdul-Jabbar
So as you can see, these packs are not “completely off” in the collation. In fact, the collation is actually spot-on, less the second alphabetical run. I have been doing this basically everyday of my life for the past 33 years. I have seen it all. I have studied not only the packs themselves, but opened the resealed ones to get a feel for the cards also. It would pretty much take the mind of a serial killer to take the cards like this and then have them flip over in the exact same spot then pick up the same alphabetical order again, in 2 different packs.
An addition, we closely watched the packs being ripped open. Not only are the flaps opening the way they should on good packs, the “inner guts”, as I like to call them, are opening correctly also (These are the inner folds of the packs where they got heat/waxed together).
Finally, I have heard some chatter that the Jordan cards graded low. From watching the video of a Jordan card being hit, you can clearly see that the Jordan is centered off to the top (hence the 7 grade) and is centered basically just like the surrounding cards in the pack. Without having the cards in hand to see the condition details, they could very well be mint cards, but get the lower grade of 7 because that’s the best the centering will allow.
Every advanced collector will tell you that when companies made certain collation patterns (for example 1975 through 1981 Topps baseball rack and cello) that there are anomalies that occur. Even if the collation is correct 99.5% of the time, there is and can be an anomaly. Remember, the idea was to print/package/and ship this stuff out ASAP.
In my opinion, this box has not been tampered with nor been resealed. I always knew this would happen someday. I figured that someday someone would open a box that was just crazy off. People would view it as counterfeit/resealed/tampered with. However, as we have just now seen, these things can and will happen. And it will happen again.
Thanks! BBCE
Steve Hart-Owner
Baseball Card Exchange, Inc.
2412 US Highway 41
Schererville, Indiana 46375
(800)598-8656
www.bbce.com
bbcexchange@sprintmail.com
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.