Sure. I was pretty sure it was a California proof. A dentist during the late 70’s was brandishing them as branch mint proofs. The odd thing is this one came from Germany.
It's not even prooflike or DMPL. Whoever was polishing couldn't get inside the letters of UNITED STATES. A proof or prooflike surface will be reflective at virtually every point of the field.
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@Melior_Invenidiste said:
Especially between the eagle’s right facing wing and shoulder.
That's the area where whoever polished the coin did not manage to polish away the original surface. This was after the coin left the mint, and it's damage.
Die polishing lines: the die, when polished, leaves incise ridges or small grooved lines. When the die strikes, the hot metal runs into the grooves,
creating raised lines. These are called die polishing lines.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
It is an altered surfaces business strike, not a proof. Die polishing lines from polishing the dies go all the way to the edges of the design and hairline scratches stop before they reach the parts of the design. So, what you have is hairline scratches, not die polish lines.
We have explained that your coin is not what you think it is.
Why did you post? What did you want? Adoration?
Send the coin if you don't believe us. Express service will have the coin back to you relatively quickly or go to the Long Beach show and do Walk through.
Good advice. So I found an interesting article on modified hub doubling. When producing branch mint proofs it is thought that they transferred dies from proofs to the San Francisco mint. Here is incredible evidence of modified hub transfer on the u and on the b which would explain the unfinished areas around the lettering. Look at the bottom left of the U and top left of the U, the modified hub doubling is evident.
@Melior_Invenidiste said:
Good advice. So I found an interesting article on modified hub doubling. When producing branch mint proofs it is thought that they transferred dies from proofs to the San Francisco mint. Here is incredible evidence of modified hub transfer on the u and on the b which would explain the unfinished areas around the lettering. Look at the bottom left of the U and top left of the U, the modified hub doubling is evident.
"When producing branch mint proofs it is thought that they transferred dies from proofs to the San Francisco mint. Here is incredible evidence of modified hub transfer on the u and on the b which would explain the unfinished areas around the lettering."
Not a branch mint proof..... just a damaged, polished coin.
The best thing you can do is trust and accept the fact that the coin has been altered/polished and hold on to it to help educate yourself and train your eye to see the problems. You will be on a very slow learning curve if you can't learn from others but in a few years when you have learned more you may pick the coin back up and get a good laugh.
It’s clear that you’re either unwilling to accept the feedback that you sought or you weren’t serious in asking for it in the first place. Either way, I hope that no one else wastes their time and effort in trying to answer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The experts in numismatics have given you their professional evaluation of your coin. This should be enough to convince you that your coin is polished and considered post mint damage. You will get the same information if you submit it to a TPG. Cheers, RickO
For those not familiar with the term 'California proof'......it's a name given to altered silver dollars where the coin doc would polish / buff the fields to give the appearance of a deeply PL coin and then apply artificial frost to the devices to give the appearance of a cameo DMPL coin. Most attempts I've seen over the years are laughable and easily spotted at first glace.
-
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Had not heard that term for decades but yeah, "California Proof" is what they used to call coins that had been buffed up like this outside the Mint.
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
@Luxor said:
For those not familiar with the term 'California proof'......it's a name given to altered silver dollars where the coin doc would polish / buff the fields to give the appearance of a deeply PL coin and then apply artificial frost to the devices to give the appearance of a cameo DMPL coin. Most attempts I've seen over the years are laughable and easily spotted at first glace.
When the OP asked the question using that term I assumed they knew, but it seems they think that means an actual proof.
Perhaps they bought it as a "California proof" thinking it is something that it is not.
I've been trying to find a reference for it but it seems to be a surprisingly difficult term to search for. @Melior_Invenidiste take the coin to a local dealer for an opinion if you don't trust us internet people.
Comments
Lovely polishing job....sure is purdy!
bob
I agree- the best one I’ve ever seen!
Mirror polish for sure, just not the die or planchet.
Do you care to tell us how you came to possess this in the raw? Peace Roy
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Badly altered business strike
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Sure. I was pretty sure it was a California proof. A dentist during the late 70’s was brandishing them as branch mint proofs. The odd thing is this one came from Germany.
Do you think they polished the edges to square them off like that?
That would take forever from the other side.
The edges don't look square at all to me.
Coin Photography
Seeing as how the coin is an S-mint, it’s not a Proof, California or otherwise. But it’s certainly been messed with.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's not even prooflike or DMPL. Whoever was polishing couldn't get inside the letters of UNITED STATES. A proof or prooflike surface will be reflective at virtually every point of the field.
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer.
Need a personalized album made? Design it on the website below and I'll build it for you.
https://www.donahuenumismatics.com/.
Hang on a tick… are those die polishing marks?
Especially between the eagle’s right facing wing and shoulder.
That's the area where whoever polished the coin did not manage to polish away the original surface. This was after the coin left the mint, and it's damage.
Coin Photography
Die polishing lines: the die, when polished, leaves incise ridges or small grooved lines. When the die strikes, the hot metal runs into the grooves,
creating raised lines. These are called die polishing lines.
It’s still a polished coin
More die polishing especially around the tough to “pop” areas, chin and pharyxian cap.
It is an altered surfaces business strike, not a proof. Die polishing lines from polishing the dies go all the way to the edges of the design and hairline scratches stop before they reach the parts of the design. So, what you have is hairline scratches, not die polish lines.
Those are hairline from polishing the coin in an attempt to make it look like DMPL.
The lines you see are not die polish
.. clear distinction
One kills a coin... the other results of minting process.
You have an altered surfaces Morgan. It will not straight grade and is not what you think it.
Is?
We have explained that your coin is not what you think it is.
Why did you post? What did you want? Adoration?
Send the coin if you don't believe us. Express service will have the coin back to you relatively quickly or go to the Long Beach show and do Walk through.
Your coin is altered. Sorry.
Collector, occasional seller
Whether your coin is or not; try not to leave your fingerprint by utilizing cotton gloves.
Good advice. So I found an interesting article on modified hub doubling. When producing branch mint proofs it is thought that they transferred dies from proofs to the San Francisco mint. Here is incredible evidence of modified hub transfer on the u and on the b which would explain the unfinished areas around the lettering. Look at the bottom left of the U and top left of the U, the modified hub doubling is evident.
Seriously? Come on man
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
"When producing branch mint proofs it is thought that they transferred dies from proofs to the San Francisco mint. Here is incredible evidence of modified hub transfer on the u and on the b which would explain the unfinished areas around the lettering."
Not a branch mint proof..... just a damaged, polished coin.
Why recut the lettering if it’s not a proof coin? Can you explain that kind of doubling? Modified
"Why recut the lettering if it’s not a proof coin? Can you explain that kind of doubling?"
Everything you are seeing is caused by damage to the coin.
That’s
some double damage?
"California Proof" is indeed an old term for a special type of polished (altered) Morgan,
and your coin appears to be an example of this.
See this thread from 2016:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/964226/anyone-have-pics-of-california-proof-morgan
SSSStrange
Send it in to PCGS and prove us wrong.
The only holder that coin is fit for is a belt buckle.
Are U sure?
Yes
It's a damaged coin worth melt value.
You could run over it with your car 30 times and it will still be worth the same amount.
The best thing you can do is trust and accept the fact that the coin has been altered/polished and hold on to it to help educate yourself and train your eye to see the problems. You will be on a very slow learning curve if you can't learn from others but in a few years when you have learned more you may pick the coin back up and get a good laugh.
SN spelled out for you.
Super rare. Send in to get certified. LOL
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It’s clear that you’re either unwilling to accept the feedback that you sought or you weren’t serious in asking for it in the first place. Either way, I hope that no one else wastes their time and effort in trying to answer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The experts in numismatics have given you their professional evaluation of your coin. This should be enough to convince you that your coin is polished and considered post mint damage. You will get the same information if you submit it to a TPG. Cheers, RickO
For those not familiar with the term 'California proof'......it's a name given to altered silver dollars where the coin doc would polish / buff the fields to give the appearance of a deeply PL coin and then apply artificial frost to the devices to give the appearance of a cameo DMPL coin. Most attempts I've seen over the years are laughable and easily spotted at first glace.
-
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
I think I like Philadelphia proofs better.
Had not heard that term for decades but yeah, "California Proof" is what they used to call coins that had been buffed up like this outside the Mint.
When the OP asked the question using that term I assumed they knew, but it seems they think that means an actual proof.
Perhaps they bought it as a "California proof" thinking it is something that it is not.
I've been trying to find a reference for it but it seems to be a surprisingly difficult term to search for.
@Melior_Invenidiste take the coin to a local dealer for an opinion if you don't trust us internet people.
Collector, occasional seller