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"Trade Dollar heavyweights present plans for definitive guidebooks" Hopefully soon.
jesbroken
Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have the 1959 issue of John Willem's book on the way, but is there another better book for the Trade Dollar? I can't find any searching google and such.
Jim
Edited to add: I have Q David Bowers book also, but I'm looking for a Trade Dollar book with quality photos, mint mark verifications and any other counterfeit information.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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I have the 1983 reprint of same. Not aware of any better books out there, but would be interested.
I wonder if wizard could help? Maybe they can help locate one if they know
Working on it. Wish I had more time. I have about 300-400 pages (with die identifications). It's challenging for this series. Please PM me or post questions and I'll try to help.
Keoj
I have a 500+ page die variety guide I am finishing up. The challenge I am facing is printing costs. The quick and dirty approach from office supply companies puts that cost at over $150 for a self-publish. I might print a dozen or so and then look for a regular publisher to make it more market friendly. It is indeed a tricky series with die reuses spanning years and proof dies reprovisioned for circulation strike pairings. Anyway, it will definitely be in a complete pre-publication form before Long Beach in a few weeks.
Willem (and by extraction - Bowers) is good for the core numbers, history, and things like that. My effort has been in simply cataloguing the dies and significant die states and has left a lot of the history out so it is more useful as a field guide.
@alefzero and @keoj
How close are either of you to going to print? What if a group here helped with the initial cost of printing? If a book with a die variety guide were to be able to be quickly and with quality produced, I know I would be glad to help, just to make it available and I am not a collector of Trade$ but just interested in seeing whatever can be done to educate our hobby. I bought my first T$ 20 years ago only to find it was counterfeit 15 years later and would like to prevent anyone I could from enduring the same. I wish you both best of luck and hope you can overcome these roadblocks.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Keoj could print today it would be the definitive book for the hobby. Engineers are never content but that is what 2nd editions are for.
I have seen lots of it, it’s gold
Rarest variety in the series but not the king which would be the 76s Doubled die Obv
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Definitely. There are a few other varieties that are rumored or expected to exist that don't seem anywhere as well. Type II/I (usually 1877-S) is a rumor and I doubt actually exists. But you just never know.
The 1876-S DDO is an interesting one. It was a Type I obverse die that was rehubbed with Type II. It is also very interesting that there is a radial die break between stars 12 and 13 on the specimen I examined. It might have been an artifact of the rehubbing. But that would depend on all examples exhibiting that feature. Otherwise it was either a rapid die failure or a higher mintage than the extant population would suggest.
As for publishing. It will be in a usable form in a few weeks. It is not meant to be more than a variety catalogue to support my efforts in the SSDC/NSDR silver dollar registry. It remains the only unsupported large format dollar series for the Registry, except Gobrechts, which could be done in an afternoon. Trade dollars were approachable because they are fairly contemporary at the mints with the Morgan series and I did VAMs extensively for decades. So I knew what to look for and at the particular mints based on many prior observations. Avoided chopmarks, as I am less informed and want a uniform quality to the book. Rarity estimates are going to be tricky and have been a typical complaint in VAMs. You also never know when a bag from China might reappear. There are some also where I found on example in looking at thousands of the date and it might be an advanced die state where earlier virgin die ones were certainly produced. But the idiosyncrasy of Trade dollars is that there are no rules or records on what was melt or overstruck, certainly not by die pair. Anyway, I will have something available. It is considered, for now, to be a Pre-Publication Review edition. Needs expert eyes and criticism to smooth out any rough edges and ferret out any errors I might have made. (As a scientist, rather than an engineer, I am comfortable with just putting what I have out for peer review and not seeking ultimate perfection.)
I have owned a few 76s DDO including the finest graded (au55 chop) and saw die cracks but not to the point of die failure.
there are other possible explanations for its rarity esp on a series made for export. It could have simple been used to fulfill in order that ended up in only a bag or two that got used up in China. Several are know chopped including one extremely heavily so.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
The scarce 1876s type 2/2 large S
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
A basic explanation might be that the Mint was acutely concerned with quality and once hat atrocity was recognized they simply stopped making them. They didn't want a demerit for shipping something unacceptable. If many were shipped out, as the chopped percentage would indicate, they would have been seen as unattractive and prime candidates for the melt bucket, regardless of reliable silver content. Similar reasoning could be made for the 1889 VAM-23A extremely clashed Morgan being in low supply. Production might have been halted quickly and/or the public got rid of them as looking like crap. All speculation unless someone uncovers some Mint record to support one reason or another.
As for the radial break, it doesn't need to be a die killer but just an observation that the particular one is found on all known examples. If you have other noted breaks or even cracks that appear on some, that would be interesting. The die might have been crap and deteriorated quickly, strike by strike.
@alefzero
Here is my (and TDN’s) old coin with some of the better preserved surfaces known for the issue. It is one of the one’s I miss the most combined with my 76 2/2 But I did keep the 75cc wide CC 1.2mm so I can’t miss that but
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I have identified two different Type II reverse die pairs with different large S reverses for 1876-S. This is the other one. The Type I obverse was later paired with a more typical small s Type II reverse which at some point got a die gouge emerging from the base of the motto banner between US of TRUST.
The obverse used on the one you posted here was previously used with another Type II obverse. It was an RPD, though not the Cherrypicker one. In this pairing however, the traces of the 76 underdate are not presenting.
So there are two tough 76-S Type II Large S die pairs: one is I/II and the other II/II.
Have you seen a 76-S with a small s Type I reverse?
Here is another 76s DDO I plucked from a junk lot
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I have seen plenty of the type 1/2 large S both chopped and unchopped. While scarce I have seen 3 or 4 of those for every type 2/2 large S.
I have never seen a micro S on any type 1 rev hub. I have heard the rumors of the 76s type 1/1 micro S but have seen no trace. I am convinced the 75s micro S is twice is rare as the 75s/CC FS501 and about as rare as the FS502
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Ok, so print it here. Only a few hundred more pages. lol
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Alefzero, great to hear that your working on a 500+ page die variety guide for the Trade dollar series.
Keoj has been promising to release his Trade dollar book for many years. I agree with Crypto he could print today, it would be the definitive book for the hobby. Unfortunately some engineers are never content but that is what 2nd editions are for. I have seen parts of it, it’s very well done.
From posts and conversations, I am sure his book will be a benchmark standard and agree that 2nd editions iron out the wrinkles well.
My pursuit is to just get things catalogued. If incomplete, as it will certainly be, updates are natural. As it stands, pretty much what one finds on a bourse or online will match what is already listed. There will be those outliers, especially in the high mintage dates like 1877-S. You can look at thousands of them and not see every extant pair. That requires the community and collaboration, something difficult during the pandemic - the period I dedicated to getting things together. Had to do something productive. A few books out there would not hurt one bit. The series could benefit from such stimulus. I know I have noticed prices creeping up on me over the past year and a half of dedicated accumulation. But some of that can certainly be attributed to the broader market increases. (I couldn't touch most of my early dollars for anything close to my original purchase prices today.)
Well said, I welcome your addition and could suggest several very knowledgeable contacts.
@alefzeroI said, and I concur:
"The series could benefit from such stimulus."
"I couldn't touch most of my early dollars for anything close to my original purchase prices today."
Funny that you mentioned the 1877-S as an outlier. Years ago Keoj said that he was up to over 30 die marriages for the 1877-S, he believed there were a few more and therefore could not release his book. I've yet to meet anyone that cares if there are more than 33 die pairs for the 1877-S. It's very likely that these remaining die pairs are minor.
Over the years Its been depressing to hear passionate trade dollar collectors voice their frustration, some even losing their passion for the series. Several contributed to the book, but despite much help and encouragement still no Trade dollar book.
"Working on it. Wish I had more time." In November 2012 Crypto posted "Hopefully this year trade dollar and book collectors become winners and Keoj releases his book."
Published an article in the Gobrecht Journal in 2019 titled "Why Is It Important to Publish Numismatic Research?"
Receive some great feedback, still no Trade dollar book.
To answer the original question, Willem's book and QDB's Silver Dollar Encyclopedia Volume 1 are probably the best comprehensive publications on Trade Dollars. That said, a lot of research has been done since both were published and they are not the final word. You can also check Breen's Encyclopedia, but that is less accurate.
A very good source is past issues of the Gobrecht Journal. They used to publish a compendium of past issues, with articles grouped by coin type, e.g. Trade Dollars, Seated Dimes, etc. There is a lot of good information in those articles.
As for chop marks, the best source is Colin Gullberg's update on the Rose book. Also, past issue of Chopmark News.
I cannot wait to see the books by @Keoj and @alefzero. There is a dearth of accurate information on the series. I've been collecting Trade Dollars for 20 years and there is a lot that I do not know/do not understand.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
The cover story of this month's Numismatist is on Trade Dollars -- not on varieties or die pairs but a very interesting perspective on the coin's history.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
One more 76-S DDO for the helluvit:
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
You could release it as a PDF or a couple of PDFs, like Bill Bugert has done for seated half dollars.
(I have been doing something similar for seated half dimes, but I am less than 20% complete at present).
http://www.lsccweb.org/Links.shtml
There will also be some people who prefer printed books and will be willing to pay the $150 for a printed version.
There are many advantages to PDFs, such as zero print cost and usually free download as well.
They have zero weight and can be on a phone or tablet if you want to look something up at a show.
There's no extra cost for color, and and you can update them without people feeling bad because
they bought a printed book that is now somewhat out of date.
I don't see a big problem with having your draft out soon, and then @keoj's out sometime later.
It will likely create 2 different ID sets, though, unless you coordinate with him.
Given that he is short on time, and essentially has a competing project,
I doubt he would be able to supply the die marriages you are missing.
But he might be able to give you his ID numbers for the ones you have.
Having a stable ID set is important for collectors and researchers.
Great idea, I like the pdf books, and have many, but I truly like the printed for my library. You could take the money you make from the pdf sales to print your book. Hope you take this route. Best of luck.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Here is another 76s DDO for analysis. Considering that almost all are considerably worn and or chopped. Limited emission and heavy attrition is the likely culprit of their rarity
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I hope you have got that in a graded holder by now sir, that is some BS
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I (and many others) have been waiting for @keoj's book for a long time.... Definitely will have a line of customers when it comes out. Cheers, RickO
Thanks.
Very interesting and eagerly awaiting the release.
Have to definitely go back and take a very good closer look at those in my possession
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Here are the die pair counts I have that were listed so far (through 1878, the years most encounter, only 1878 being proof only). There are states beyond them for many. Still have some that need to be organized and added. A few dates warrant more investigation obviously. But I am taking the VAM approach in that it is a living catalogue and others can be added as they are reported or discovered. The Philadelphia reverses are expectedly the most difficult ones to catalogue. No mint mark to discriminate, it requires looking at a lot of examples and in higher grades to locate pickup points.
1873: 6 (2 proofs)
1873-CC: 7
1873-S: 7
1874: 10 (2 proofs)
1874-CC: 21
1874-S: 14
1875: 6 (3 proofs), actually 5 since the Type II proof reverse pair was later used for circulation strikes
1875-CC: 16
1875-S: 31
1876: 14 (6 proofs)
1876-CC: 10
1876-S: 40
1877: 26 (3 proofs)
1877-CC: 10
1877-S: 55
1878: 3 (all proofs of course)
1878-CC: 4
1878-S: 19
Wow, it looks like my assumption that @keoj had identified more die pairs was wrong (although I don't actually know his counts; these look very substantial,though).
Thank you for sharing these amazing counts from your work.
You did all that in 2 years during the pandemic?
I love love studying the 1876p die pairs. 3 didn’t hub combos, a recut modification to a type one Obv and multiple instances of re used proof dies. Some of the best variety die pairs come form that date
76 type 1/1 proof (unique rev proof die)
76 type 1/1 perfect rev with no broken letters
76 type 1.5/2 recut finger both BS and Pf strikes (different Reed counts)
76 2/2 both BS and PF strikes
76 1/2 BS with rev of the 76 2/2 and 1.5/2
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Excellent, now I have hope that there will be a die variety guide for Trade dollars published during my lifetime.
A pdf book would be great, but I truly like a hard copy for my library. I like the idea of using the money you make from the pdf sales to print your book.
I, for one, would certainly buy both.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I also would be an eager buyer.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
The work was about 14 months (was in the hospital for surgeries in the earlier part, unrelated to Covid). Had a lot of disparate notes and coins to go through as well as purchases (which probably was part of the reason prices went up). Saved some money with permissions on copyrighted material, making this actually doable. The real work will arise once I get this out to a number of knowledgeable folks.
None of it is about making $$$. Covering for losses on coins bought and resold lower just for inspection and imaging would be nice though. I might send it out as a PDF to a limited group to start to get some constructive criticism. Then, I guess it could be distributed both digitally and physically. The issue with the >$150 printing cost is the eventual publication would reach fewer people even if sold at cost. Funny too since one score on a Trade dollar probably more than pays for it. It is damn near impossible to pick up a collectible Trade dollar for under $200. So maybe the cost is just what it is and not terribly high. Will explore options.
Also considered putting a lot of it on a site on one of my servers, making it public. But first we want to have it as correct as possible. I should probably floor a number of outstanding questions too.
Would be nice to work out the hubs for each die, at least generally, beyond the Types. Like the doubled IGWT right banner end, the horizontal line segment at the top of the lower right wheat, markers in the EPU motto, the chipped out lower denticle corner below one of the Ls of DOLLAR, polish to the left of Liberty, etc. It is deficient on chopmarks, but was never the aim anyway; just was looking to catalogue the dies. But I did survey them for 1878-CC. Would like to do 1875, but who has them and have they been in recent enough auctions? Still peripheral, but useful.
@alefzero happy to help on the chopmark part of your work. Others on this thread are more expert on the other aspects of Trade Dollars.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
I don't know if there is a better book. I have the 1965 version.
Here are the 1876 proof dies I have identified and the two business die pairs that inherited a proof die. The II79 and II81 reverses were used in later years for proofs. I did not find a reuse of the 1873 whip polish lines reverse die for a I/I proof for the year.
Very nice work.
Thank you for sharing this cool sample.
I like the global die IDs, so you can trace the reuses in different years.
And also the "Normal Die" label, for dies that don't have known markers.
They are a fact of life for Philadelphia reverses in the fully hubbed era.
I call them "Generic" in seated half dimes.
Can you imagine the average purchaser of T$'s being armed with this information? It would virtually change ebay, etsy and other sales venue's that do not enforce counterfeit rules and laws. I'm not saying that buying T$'s shouldn't be in slabs, but right now buying raw is foolish for the average collector and this would certainly improve that ability.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
>
I've studied the 76 II/II coins extensively, and if you look at a bunch of the proof examples, you'll see varying degrees of "doubling" on US of A lettering. My theory is this is an artifact of multiple strikes, not something present on the reverse die. You'll see some of these (same die) with zero "doubling" and others with quite a bit, and it can vary in location.
Are you suggesting there's more than one II/II die pair? That would be news to me.
And here's another 76-S DDO, PCGS AU50. If we keep this going long enough we'll have all examples covered and people will begin to think these aren't rare
@alefzero - I suggest you make it available as a paid watermarked download - that way no printing cost. I think you deserve to be compensated for your efforts - this work will add a lot of value for Trade collectors.
It has been very helpful. Since all exhibit the said radial break between stars 12 and 13, it is pretty likely that occurred as a consequence of the the rehubbing of the die.
For Obverse die attribution, I think you should be more definite on the horizontal date position.
This is the primary identifying feature across all obverse dies in this hubbed era,
and should be the first thing a user should check to narrow down the possible known dies.
Vertical position and slope are also sometimes identifying, but harder to measure / quantify.
Date width and angles of digits do not vary as far as I know,
as all observations suggest that after 1841 the dates on all seated denominations are part of a 4 digit gang punch.
(Sometimes there are 2 different date gang punches used in a year, such as on 1853 Philadelphia half dimes).
Numbered horizontal positions (slightly different from the index that @keoj uses).
Example of use.
You can use a concise code for horizontal position in the description.
It's fairly easy to use a digital image editor (I use the freeware IrfanView on Windows) to
draw a vertical line up from the right long edge of the 1 in the date,
and see where it intersects GOD. It may be necessary to rotate/straighten the image first so that the motto is level.
I took the liberty of doing this for the 1876 obverse die photos you shared above.
Your descriptions are very consistent with the H codes,
so I think you probably did the same measurements,
but chose to present it with specific phrases instead of codes.
Apologies if you have an explanation elsewhere in your book that translates your
descriptions to landing points on GOD.
It does seem advisable to say "Date slightly left" instead of "Date is wide" for H3.
If we compare I80 and II83 (H4 and H3), the 1 and 7 are both shifted left on II83,
instead of the 7 staying in the same spot or moving right to make the date "wider" on II83.
Your photos with vertical lines added are below.
Quit teasing us, would you please put your info together, all of you, and release a book. I said please.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
That one is the BOMB!!!
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
With regard to date position and orientation, that was going to be revised on some in a second pass. But the position of the 1 relative to GO is but one way to do it. There are some dates that were punched remarkably wide, so they might look left or right but in a net positional sense, it is different. My original approach was to use the midpoint of the gap between the center two digits relative to the center line of the obverse die rotated such that the bottom edge of the IGWT banner was horizontal. I think that ended up around the point of the right bottom of the W. I have an image for that, as well as one for a standard position of the the reverse die, to define the relative position of the mint mark. But regardless of the textual description, nothing replaces an image. Some are very, very close to each other. That said, if it would be helpful, I would not have a problem adding the H* to the die descriptions. Also, what often discriminates two close dies is the precise landings of the two horns of the 7.
Yes, there are many ways to measure the date position, and all should be equivalent!
Some may perform a little better on lower grade coins, but eventually all will fail on very worn coins.
Regarding potentially 2 1876 II/II die pairs,
of course it all goes back to the fundamental problem of trying to identify different Philadelphia reverses.
The semi random doubling is interesting and sounds like it could be shelf doubling.
But ultimately there is the question of what to do when there are no observed die markers
on 2 reverses that you know are paired with 2 different obverses.
It is a problem of what to do when there is an absence of information.
1. You could call them different dies, because you can't prove they are the the same.
2. You could call them the same die, because you can't prove they are different.
I like the approach here where you give them different die IDs, but declare them to be a "Normal" die.
At some point, markers might be found.
In the Fortin seated dimes attribution guide, they are given different IDs.
In half dimes, I give them the same ID, unless both have later die states that distinguish them.
In that event I give them different IDs, assuming the mint didn't swap out an undamaged reverse die for another.
For the "Normal Die" reverses for Philadelphia issues, I did go through a lot of detailed work to locate pickup points or look at enough of them to observe obvious production differences, like in progressing die cracks. Often the differences are so slight as to render them unusable discriminants in attributions and essentially academic.
Another thing to note is that I figure the most use will be in modest grades, VF through low UNC. So I have tried to keep that in mind, for business strikes, in determining what should be imaged and even whether I might want to opt for an AU over a very high grade coin for the die pair.
In addition to a QA review, I am looking for proposals for inclusions in a reasonably sized list, like the VAM Top 100. Trying to steer clear of ultrararities that make such a set achievable by only one or two and with a ton of bucks. Something like the wide small cc for 1875 would be such a coin, while that for 1874 might be a welcome challenge. The 1876-S DDO has to be there, as would all CPG varieties. One exception possibly would be the 1878-S FS-802. I have never seen one. Plenty of FS-801 examples, though one or two of the four die states are difficult. And there are some weak DDRs as well. If anyone has n FS-802 (not the 1877-S one), we should see how to include it. If it is not as difficult as it has been for me to locate, I sure would like to know that too. Again, these things might come together in the review process and also into the future as the catalogue is designed to grow.
The numbering was done for die pairs pretty much like Bolender did for Early Dollars: just sequenced as they are listed for each date. A difference is that if the only located example of a die pair included a feature that conceivably might not have existed on earlier strikes, it is that integer dot 1. If intermediate and later states of significance are found, we can god to .05 and .2. etc. An example is that 1876-S DDO, FS-101. I listed it as 36.1, rather than 36, because of the radial break between stars 12 and 13. It increasingly appears that it is an artifact from the rehubbing. If so, a 36 would not exist and it is perfectly fine. However, if one without that (in a grade where it would be evident) should appear, there is a place for it.
The obverse dies are numbered in order catalogued, with no regard to any real sequencing or hub type. If two are found to be the same, one is simply retired as a duplicate. It is meant to be flexible. I learned a lot of lessons from how VAMs were catalogued and ways it could have been better with foresight. (There is no way the authors of that book could ever have expected where VAMs would go.)
While my reason for doing this was primarily to include the series on the SSDC/NSDR Silver Dollar Registry Server, the series really needs something like this due to the big problem of counterfeits. (I even bought a considerable number of fakes, fully aware of what they were, to learn a little.)